Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: ts on September 01, 2011, 02:51:21 AM
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(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/polishfieldartilleryPinsk1920-1-1.jpg)
Can anyone here tell, what model the gun is?
It seems not to be Russian.
Austrian or German?
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The pic is not terribly clear, and I am no expert, but it does bear some similarity to a French 75mm M1897 field gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_mod%C3%A8le_1897
Would make sense as the Polish army got a lot of surplus French equipment after the end of WW1, AFAIK.
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(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/polishfieldartilleryPinsk1920-2.jpg)
Sorry for the picture quality, but it is copied from the book "White Eagle - Red Star".
It is not the French 75mm, the ending of the barrel is different.
My best guess is an Austrian gun, but I have no knowledge of Austrian guns.
The Poles used German, Austrian, Russian, French and even Italian guns.
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Sorry for the picture quality, but it is copied from the book "White Eagle - Red Star".
Sure? I can't find it there.
It might be a Putilov 7,62 mm M1900, though the barrel seems to be short. AFAIK the germans shortened some captured russian guns for use as IG. Perhabs one of those?
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Could be a wz. 02/26 3-inch Putilov gun. Produced in 1902 but rechambered to 75mm in 1926.
That was the artillery used by the Polish cavalry.
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not sure
but it is a horse artillery unit.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=81062
show a battery firing ? it might help.
http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/english_CanonsIndex_Nation.html#ReichIILegere
the artillery regements list on equipment for 1918 to 1921 might show you the way
other bits?
http://vendheaume.fighters.pagesperso-orange.fr/russpole.html
http://www.militaryheadgear.com/items/7047
http://nethelper.com/article/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_War
http://www.polishforums.com/history-poland-34/august-battle-poland-red-army-45798/
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?163126-Battle-of-Warsaw-1920-and-Polish-Army-day
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This is all i can find to send you in the right direction, since you will probley have better information in polish on the internet
Battle of the Niemen River show the 4th Army 16th Pomeranian Division Polish artillery in Pinsk 1920 ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Niemen_River
hope this helps
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That was a nice lineup by the Poles, Pilsudski, Sikorski and Rydz-Smigly all in one place :D
Btw does anyone know if there has been any interwar Polish soldier models release? I think Siberia Miniatures had a interwar line in the works?
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Polish figures are being worked on.
See for instance
http://frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=711061#711061
Yes, David, I have some informations on the Polish artillery, but it does not goes into details on the more "strange" guns used by the Poles.
The most used are wellknown, but only 25% of the used ones 1918-19-20are mentioned as "modern", so a lot of different models have been in use.
I have not yet found a source or book, which give some details on all that.
The gun on the picture looks as a light gun with some horse artillery, being part of a cavalry unit, which can be seen in the background. The limber looks like it is made for 2 men, so rather small.
To Poliorketes, you is right I am not sure, the picture is from "White Eagle - Red Star". But I assume it is from its caption. I found the picture on an Ukrainian military history forum showing pictures with Poles 1920. Most of the other pictures with same letter typings were copied from an English version of "White Eagle - Red Star".
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Thanks for the link TS, those Poles are just :-* ! ;D
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I will be getting a 28mm Schneider-Canet 75mm field gun M. 1904 with limber cast soon for my WW2 greek army since they had 20 of them.
did the polish army have any in 1919 to 1920 war ?
http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Schneider-Canet%2075mm%201904.htm
Thanks
David
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Certainly the Poles had 75 mm guns, that became their main gun, I will find some figures on it, at the end they had more than 2.000. Some came with Haller's Blue Corps, but many were acquired further.
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The photo is not in my copy of White Eagle Red Star. There is one in Zamoyski's Warsaw 1920 though.
I assumed it was horse artillery because all the men are mounted. If they are cavalry in the background, then I would normally expect them to have lances. (They could be mounted scouts from an infantry unit, I suppose, but why would they parade with the artillery?)
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You is correct, the photo is from Zamoyski.
The crew to the gun is holding in front of the gun, so I doubt the mounted men in the background are artillerymen.
Artillery will always have some kind of protective unit in its nearness. The batteries - normally with 4 guns - themselves seem to have had only 2 machine guns for close protection, and such teams would not demand so many further cavalrymen.
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Mamontov's book shows the typical horse artillery battery in the AFSR.
It had four guns: each of six horses of which three were ridden and eight mounted crew. That's more or less what we see here in the front, which is why I think they are horse artillery.
There were also two tachankas, and a wagon train (to the right in the photo, I suspect). But the unit also had a small unit of mounted scouts and there must have been other support men: officer's batmen, messengers. They don't have to be artillerymen to be in an artillery unit. The block of mounted men on the right appear to have dark collars, which makes me wonder if they aren't the unit's officers.
If they are cavalry at the back, then they are a very odd unit. Why would forty men, without lances, be watching artillery?
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The "cavalry" can be mounted artillerymen, I do not know and really do not care much.
My main interest is to find out, what model the shown gun is?
I will put up a schemata, when my scanner works again, showing the etat of the Polish Horse Artillery pr. 15. September 1919.
That the "cavalry" does not carry lances is proof of nothing. The light horse mainly did not carry lances, neither did many volunteer units.
If it is artillery, then it is interesting, they also carry a red-white? Polish standard, even if most or many Polish units carried flags of some kind. Else I only know of one horse artillery standard, which is in form of a lance pennon.
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the look like they have formed up for moving or a military parade, it what most units do in the field at the start of the day on campaine. so there comander can speek to them.
I know this, since i have done this a few times ;)
after going through the WW1 guns 65 or 75mm guns i don't think it any of them.
The main problem with this gun in the picture is the gun barrel with no support under the barrel and the lenght of the carrage.
it look like a 1890 to 1900 design, with a gun shield fitted on.
it is not French, british, german from my books
so it could be a pain to find out.
the best way is to find what unit was there and what they were equiped with.
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If it is artillery, then it is interesting, they also carry a red-white? Polish standard, even if most or many Polish units carried flags of some kind. Else I only know of one horse artillery standard, which is in form of a lance pennon.
Mamontov's battery in Russia had a flag, and there are other references to artillery flags. It does look like a cavalry pennon shape to me.
I doubt most batteries had much interest in designing a complicated flag, so probably went with something simple in regimental colours.
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The main problem with this gun in the picture is the gun barrel with no support under the barrel and the lenght of the carrage.
it look like a 1890 to 1900 design, with a gun shield fitted on.
That's exactly what I thought. Without gun shield there are several possible guns from pre-1895.
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From: LEKSYKON WOJNY POLSKO – ROSYJSKIEJ 1919-1920, by Janusz Odziemkowski, Warszawa, 2004.
1918 the Poles took over from Germany, Austria and Russia more than 352 guns of 22 different designs - of which only 25% were modern. So there are enough models to choose from. But how to find a list of all those? I do not have access to the litterature mentioned in the notes:
CAW, sygn. 1.301.10.2, 1.301.10.20, 1.301.10.24, 1.301.11.43, 1.311.4.21, 1.341.1.235; W. Chocianowicz, Dzieje 1 pułku artylerii lekkiej Legionów Józefa Piłsudskiego, Londyn 1967; J. Ciałowicz, Rozwój sprzętu artyleryjskiego w czasie wojny i po wojnie (1914-1929), Warszawa 1930; K.L. Galster, Księga pamiątkowa artylerii polskiej 1914-1939, Londyn 1975; J. Gintel, Zarys historii wojennej 2-go pułku artylerii ciężkiej, Warszawa 1929; J. Hlasko, Zarys historii wojennej 1-go pułku artylerii ciężkiej, Warszawa 1929; J. Kamiński, Artyleria, [w:] Dziesięciolecie odrodzenia Polskiej Siły Zbrojnej 1918-1928, pod red. H. Mościckiego, W. Dzwonkowskiego, T. Balabana, Warszawa 1928; Landau, Natężenie ognia artylerii w wojnie 1918-1920, „Przegląd Artyleryjski" 1924, nr 2; R. Łoś, Artyleria polska 1914-1939, Warszawa 1991; M. Wrzosek, Wojsko Polskie w dobie narodzin II Rzeczypospolitej (1918- 1921), [w:] Zarys dziejów wojskowości polskiej w latach 1864-1939, Warszawa 1990; S. Więckowski, Historia 17pułku artylerii, Warszawa 1931.
I have tried one of the Polish internet forums, but with no results yet.
Any Poles on this forum?
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(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l484/ths3/ra001.jpg)
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Looks lovely, but what does it mean in English?
Bateria ? = battery
BZAK ?
DAK ?
RAZEM ? =Total
can you convert the words into english so we can understand what it means
Thanks
David
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Just for you David :D
It follows the same lines as all such schematas.
Bateria = battery
DAK - D = dywizjon/unit. A = artylerii. K = Konnej, meaning horse/mounted. And so Horse artillery unit/battery.
Dowodztwo = leadership, command - here staff.
BZAK = batteria zapasowa artylerii konna = battery reserve.
Podchorążowie = cadets/very young officers. Officers then were often trained in the field caused by the circumstances.
Podofiecerowie = NCOs.
Szeregowi = men, privates.
Razem = total.