Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: pnweerar on November 15, 2007, 03:25:09 AM
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A bit of a more removed question - why were uniforms from the 19th century so pretty? I imagine everyone knew how muddy, dirty, and even bloodied they would get, so why was there such to do about making them look nice for the parade grounds?
I can imagine smaller, professional armies may have done so to boost recruitment, but it makes little sense given the rise of conscription-based forces with Napoleon.
Just wondering if any of our history buffs had some answers.
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well it's a huge question :
first the uniform are pretty to boost recruits
also pretty uniforms are choosen to give a corps spirit to the unit or regiment. At least, they don't need to hidden :lol:
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Another aspect would be command and control - considering that the channels of communications were primitive back then, the commander had to be able to recognize his troops from the Feldherrenhügel (command post hill) in order to see how the battle developed. So it´s better to have an easily-recognized uniform, which, in all probability, should be visibly different from the enemy´s.
As the years progressed and the large infantry formations became less important, I guess the main point for keeping the uniforms was tradition. And the fact that the troopers in uniform look snappy, thus adding to the appeal of the armed forces.
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Another practical consideration - if you dress your men in distinctive clothes they are easier to find if they try to desert (well at least until they desert and murder a civilian for his suit)
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Fastolfrus,
I think that you have hit it on the head....but more for the 18th century. Thats not to say that it doesn't extend further into time...Or as they said on Broadway...Tradition!!!
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Red coats, traditional for us Brits don't show the blood when wounded. So good for morale. :)
I am not sure if that is the real reason why we traditionally wear scarlet tunics, but I am sure i heard it mentioned somewhere.:)
Personally if I am going to have to go out onto a battlefield and risk getting blown to pieces by a cannon, or run through by lance or bayonet then I would like to look good when it happens. I am sure I would feel more comfortable wearing an attractive uniform with lots of braiding, piping and pretty colours than my drab civilian garments :lol:
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It also has something to do with the advent of the industrial revolution. You had things like helmet plates and brass buttons during the Napoleonic Era, but it took the industrial revolution to really be able to crank out brass Prussian eagles and buttons with the lion and unicorn on them. Now uniform features that had once been affordable to only the palace guard to go to everyone in the army.
And then the British had to go and ruin everything with khaki, because they no longer had the market cornered on cochineal. If khaki hadn't been incorporated into uniforms, your "business casual" clothing today might very well include epaulettes and shoulder cords.
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Personally if I am going to have to go out onto a battlefield and risk getting blown to pieces by a cannon, or run through by lance or bayonet then I would like to look good when it happens. I am sure I would feel more comfortable wearing an attractive uniform with lots of braiding, piping and pretty colours than my drab civilian garments :lol:
A very, very British sentiment! Thus speak the decendants of the Light Brigade!
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And then the British had to go and ruin everything with khaki, because they no longer had the market cornered on cochineal. If khaki hadn't been incorporated into uniforms, your "business casual" clothing today might very well include epaulettes and shoulder cords.
(http://www.multinet.no/~jonarne/Hjemmesia/Favorittartister/adam_and_the_ants/adam_and_the_ants_5.jpg)
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I think if you'll look more closely at your photo, you'll see that in addition to the uniform jacket, the subject is wearing war paint and confetti. I would expect these to be business casual only if the Iroquois Confederation took back Manhattan and the Euro was replaced by Circus Wacky Bucks.
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Personally if I am going to have to go out onto a battlefield and risk getting blown to pieces by a cannon, or run through by lance or bayonet then I would like to look good when it happens. I am sure I would feel more comfortable wearing an attractive uniform with lots of braiding, piping and pretty colours than my drab civilian garments :lol:
A very, very British sentiment! Thus speak the decendants of the Light Brigade!
Indeed Sir, :)
"On their return home the newly named 17th Lancers were employed in a round of garrison duties in England and Ireland, which lasted 30 years. In 1826 Lord George Bingham (later Lord Lucan and commander of the British Cavalry Division in the Crimea) bought the Colonelcy of the 17th. The Regiment was mainly employed as an aid to the civil powers though they did provide guards for both Queen Victoria in Dublin and the Czar in Windsor. Bingham spent lavishly on the Regiment buying blood horses for all ranks and commissioning fashionable tailors to produce uniforms for his regiment to his own design. The effect was so drastic that the Regiment came to be known as 'Bingham's Dandies', matched only for splendour by Lord Cardigans 11th Hussars or 'Cherry Pickers'
Its the Cherry Pickers for me although I always wanted to be a dandy :lol:
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You are of course right. :-) I was just remembered a time back in the '80 when wnet clubbing snazzed up in shoulderboards, adjutant's coards, hussar jackets and Loveboat peaked captains hats. It certainly wasn't casualwear, few things were, between punks, skinheads, new wave and disco freaks, teddy boys, rastafarians and mods.
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Its the Cherry Pickers for me although I always wanted to be a dandy :lol:
I never figured out why the regiment was called the Cherry Pickers. Was it because they were late for the battle of Waterloo or because Lord Cardigan thought pink jodphurs and piping made the men look dashing?
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Something to do with an incident in a cherry orchard during the Peninsular War, if memory serves.
Edit: http://website.lineone.net/~royal.hussar/11hnapoleonic.htm
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[quote="hammershield
I never figured out why the regiment was called the Cherry Pickers. Was it because they were late for the battle of Waterloo or because Lord Cardigan thought pink jodphurs and piping made the men look dashing?[/quote]
Doesnt everyone think pink jodphurs look dashing, or is it just me :?: :lol:
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Something to do with an incident in a cherry orchard during the Peninsular War, if memory serves.
Edit: http://website.lineone.net/~royal.hussar/11hnapoleonic.htm
Ah, thanks! Glad to get that cleared up.
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Red coats, traditional for us Brits don't show the blood when wounded. So good for morale.
I am not sure if that is the real reason why we traditionally wear scarlet tunics, but I am sure i heard it mentioned
The real reason is that in 1645 during the English Civil War the New Model Army was raised by paliament as the first national army (as opposed to the regional armies that were fighting up to then). Rather than all regiments being in their colonel's choice of colour, It was decided that they should be clothed in a uniform colour (at the lowest cost). The Scots (a potential enemy) were already in grey, so the next cheapest colour was Gloucester Red. After the war the NMA became the Standing Army in the same colour and the rest is history ...
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A bit of a more removed question - why were uniforms from the 19th century so pretty? I imagine everyone knew how muddy, dirty, and even bloodied they would get, so why was there such to do about making them look nice for the parade grounds?
I can imagine smaller, professional armies may have done so to boost recruitment, but it makes little sense given the rise of conscription-based forces with Napoleon.
Just wondering if any of our history buffs had some answers.
It's because we soldiers are basically tarts - where it once was tight fitting breeches and gold frogging, it's now baggy combats with half-rolled up sleeves showing off the chunky divers watch, with immaculate personal weapon and underslung grenade launcher in one hand, and kevlar helmet with fittings for night vision device and helmet camera on the old swad - chinstrap is, of course, done-up.
However, when it comes to the summer ball, the scarlet jacket with high collar and deep blue mess overalls still hits the spot with Fiona Fitztightly and her cohorts - or so the young subbies tell me...
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Thanks for the answers :) .
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Sir Henry -
I vaguely recall hearing (a few years ago) that the first consignment of Venice red cloth purchased by Parliament was actually cheap because it was bought second hand off the Dutch (who "acquired" it from the Spanish)
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Sir Henry -
I vaguely recall hearing (a few years ago) that the first consignment of Venice red cloth purchased by Parliament was actually cheap because it was bought second hand off the Dutch (who "acquired" it from the Spanish)
English use of red coats pre-dates the Civil War and was in common use in Henry VIII's army over a hundred years earlier (the Yeoman of the Guard and the Yeoman Warders still wear their original style uniforms). The London Trained Bands are also believed to have worn Red Coats and these formed the nucleus of the Parliamentarian Army long before the New Model Army formed up.
Regards,
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Stephen :
Not certain of this but weren't red coats pre New Model the responsibility/choice of the colonel ? There were a lot of other coat colours in use too. Blue was fairly popular. There were quite a few blue coats in Henry VIIIs army too.
But the New Model marked a distinction that all infantry (and dragoons ?) were to be issued with uniform red coats.
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Stephen :
Not certain of this but weren't red coats pre New Model the responsibility/choice of the colonel ? There were a lot of other coat colours in use too. Blue was fairly popular. There were quite a few blue coats in Henry VIIIs army too.
But the New Model marked a distinction that all infantry (and dragoons ?) were to be issued with uniform red coats.
Indeed but red and gold were Tudor colours and were linked through the Royal Guards and London Trained Bands to 'englishness' before the NMA - it's not so cut and dried.
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Stephen -
Am I reading you right ? Parliament, after 2 years of fighting against Charles Stuart, and having signed up to an alliance with the Scots, chose red as a sort of homage to Henry VIII, rather than happy coincidence that they could get the cloth on the cheap ?
I thought that the London Trayned Bandes were not initially issued with coats (although there was a possibility that they were issued a buff coat with cloth sleeves) and would wear normal (civilian) coats/doublets.
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Here's a little anecdote from when I was a piper in the Canadian militia. Every Remembrance Day, after the ceremony at the cenotaph, we would travel around the pubs and branches of the Royal Canadian Legion (the Canadian veterans' association). One of the benefits, of course, was loads of free BEvERages.
Full dress uniform for pipers is nearly unchanged from the uniform adopted in the 1850s, with tunic, belts, spats, the works. It presented quite a contrast to the modern army's DEU (Dress Environment Uniform: basically a suit and tie). The contrast between my combination of belts and buttons (and of course, the kilt) and the boring CF standard uniform worked wonders with the ladies. It was far easier to attract female attention when dressed in our Victorian era uniforms than when we were in more "modern" garb.
One of my favourite moments was my chance to laugh at an infantryman who complained that I was "shinier" than he was!
So, getting back to the original post: fancier uniform = more chicks![/quote]
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Stephen -
Am I reading you right ? Parliament, after 2 years of fighting against Charles Stuart, and having signed up to an alliance with the Scots, chose red as a sort of homage to Henry VIII, rather than happy coincidence that they could get the cloth on the cheap ?
Homage - no (although a Stuart may well have held a different level of respect from the man who broke with the Catholic Church and his Armada defeating daughter), tradition is a different thing else why did they keep the red coats after the Restoration? Parliamentarians weren't republicans at the beginning of the NMA and no one had heard of levelling at that stage - they just didn't like the Continental European Absolute Monarchism the Stuart's were trying to bring in or the fear that he was trying to reintroduce the Catholic Church on the sly - which takes us back to Henry...
Also red dye isn't cheaper (or at least red dye that doesn't fade after the first light shower) - that's why on the Foot Guards have red tunics now for ceremonial and the Line Infantry are in Blue Patrols. So whilst they may have got the cloth cheap - being sharp eyed businessmen they would have had one eye to the future.
I thought that the London Trayned Bandes were not initially issued with coats (although there was a possibility that they were issued a buff coat with cloth sleeves) and would wear normal (civilian) coats/doublets.
They are contemporary accounts of them wearing red but, as it was in the language of the day, some say doesn't mean their coats were red - let's not go there :?
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Here's a little anecdote from when I was a piper in the Canadian militia. Every Remembrance Day, after the ceremony at the cenotaph, we would travel around the pubs and branches of the Royal Canadian Legion (the Canadian veterans' association). One of the benefits, of course, was loads of free BEvERages.
Full dress uniform for pipers is nearly unchanged from the uniform adopted in the 1850s, with tunic, belts, spats, the works. It presented quite a contrast to the modern army's DEU (Dress Environment Uniform: basically a suit and tie). The contrast between my combination of belts and buttons (and of course, the kilt) and the boring CF standard uniform worked wonders with the ladies. It was far easier to attract female attention when dressed in our Victorian era uniforms than when we were in more "modern" garb.
One of my favourite moments was my chance to laugh at an infantryman who complained that I was "shinier" than he was!
So, getting back to the original post: fancier uniform = more chicks!
[/quote]
I had similar luck when as an Infantryman at a 29 (Commando) Royal Artillery the CO sent as all into town after a Mess do. So here we were in a nightclub - known as Plymouth Sailing Club (or GX - groin exchange - colloquially) – in full Mess Dress. Now gunners wear blue and so faded comfortably into the darkness, and at that time I was in my pre-Rifles scarlet – despite not being what used to be called a ‘page 7 fellah’ I remember the night fondly…
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Stephen :
Not certain of this but weren't red coats pre New Model the responsibility/choice of the colonel ? There were a lot of other coat colours in use too. Blue was fairly popular. There were quite a few blue coats in Henry VIIIs army too.
But the New Model marked a distinction that all infantry (and dragoons ?) were to be issued with uniform red coats.
Indeed but red and gold were Tudor colours and were linked through the Royal Guards and London Trained Bands to 'englishness' before the NMA - it's not so cut and dried.
Charles' Oxford army was fitted out in red & blue in [IIRC] 1643. Red was always seen as a "martial" colour in England, probably to do with Roman or Spartan conotations.
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Sadly I was in the RAF whilst 3 of my uncles were in Infantry battalions (Kings own Scottish Borderers) so when weddings etc came around we were were asked to wear unifomrs.
As always they would sit in their finery and shout "here comes the RAC, who needs there car fixed" not a happy bunny :cry: and a rubbish uniform at the time, though now they seem to have reverted back to better No1s with the albatross on sleeves and a material cap badge rather than the crappy brass one