Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Bezzo on November 04, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
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Okay I admit a few things came together.
I read the Osprey "First Armies" book and got interested in the really early forms of warfare.
I bought a great army of Foundry Bronze Age figures at a marvellous price - (thanks Steve!)
I have visited Ireland and Malta and am already fascinated by the temples/tombs/architecture of the era.
So I am pretty "in" to the era at the moment. At Phalanx '97 the Perry twins game based on the era was universally acclaimed (see Mike Siggins' comments).
So I go "googling" and there is...... there is....exactly... this an era in (populous) Europe of several centuries there has to be something. Virtually nothing. Okay I am now well versed on crannogs and such. But it seems as a continent we just "aint bothered" to exploit this in wargame terms. Whereas a promiscuous wife in the Aegean is kidnapped by her latest lover and "whoa!" Games, figures, battles refought.
I will also confess we did not have Homer to celebrate the times but is that the only reason our warriors of the era are ignored? By the way Beowulf is centuries too late to qualify.
I'd be really happy to get feedback on this. It has come as a bit of a surprise to me to find such a 'chunk' of history all but ignored.
Bezzo (perplexed)
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The thing is that it isn't a chunk of history but of pre-history. That is precisely the problem for me. Hard to get excited when all you have to go on is post-holes and potsherds. It's no surprise to me at all that the Bronze Age Mediterranean is much more popular. Those people wrote stuff down (or those that didn't kept it alive for later generations who did), they left their mark in a way that still captures the imagination.
The Iliads and Odysseys of Bronze Age Europe meanwhile are lost forever to us. They will always be mere blank phantoms because we don't know their stories. What did they call themselves? What were the names of their tribes, their heroes and villains and their gods?
Stories, I think, are what inspire us; but these people cannot tell us theirs. No wine-dark sea, no helmet flashing, no sad lament of kings. Just silence.
That's my tuppence worth on the subject, anyway.
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Perhaps the mobile nature of northern Europe's population, either to avoid the inclement weather, flee from enemies or find fertile soil, meant that they did not lay down the cultural roots that those in sunnier climes did.
Britain was attached to Europe for a long time, maybe Ireland without a land bridge, became more settled and passed stories on.
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You also have the Welsh Mabinogi. The tales could easily have their roots in the bronze age.
I was thinking of using those bronze age minis as Nemedians or Partholonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed
And an even more fantastic twist
http://www.thecimmerian.com/of-celts-and-nameless-cults-the-irish-nemedian-chronicles/
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Unless Irish mythology has less "weight" than Homeric?
Never in life, Irish and Welsh mythology can give the Greeks a run for their money any damn day of the week by my reckoning. I love that stuff. But I thought we were talking about the Bronze Age. If your game is going to be populated by Cú Chulainn and Queen Medb or Bendigeidfran and Branwen you are gaming Dark Ages mythology, something separated from the Bronze Age by a huge gulf of time and several cultures.
Nothing wrong with doing that, though. Would make for some great gaming, I reckon.
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I think you need to look at the similarities rather than the differances between these equally heroic periods. Eastern mythology is recorded precisely because it was passed by word of mouth, round the hearth fire or the feast table, until someone said, I like that one....get it on a scroll!
Similarly North European myths have their roots in a far older time. Read them by all means, but take the essential core material from them. The heroic leader and his followers raid on the next tribes lands, bringing cattle and slaves home. The kidnap of a princess. The single combat between mighty kings to decide the fate of their lands and people's. These things don't change for centuries.
Haves read of Barry Cunliffe's book Europe Between the Oceans or Francis Pryor's books on the earl British isles. Take a gander at what's been written about Otzi the Iceman as background for games....and get gaming mate....it's all out there for you :)
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You must do this. It would be quite a project, quite the spectacle when done, and we would want photos of course. :)
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I had a similar idea.
Points for each warrior killed, deductions for each lost. Points gained for wine/cattle/chattles/slaves or deducted for citizens/goods/crops lost. More prestige gained for killing a hero or for a lower class defeating a higher grade champion.
That way you have to balance what success means. What do you defend - your home or your flocks? Do you detach warriors to escort the slaves back to the ship and risk the remainder of your raiders being overrun?
As a final touch boast about your victory afterwards regardless of how you actually won or lost...post this online......here of course. Your name and your deeds will then become immortal just like Achilles, Cu Culainn, Gigamesh - Bezzo the High King :D
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Actually, according to a couple of books that I read a while back on Stonehenge and "Seahenge", at least the bronze age peoples of what is now England were fairly settled, and that for centuries. Sadly, though, none of their oral tradition would seem to have been passed down to us.
This is the book that I read on Seahenge:
Francis Pryor, Seahenge (Harper Collins, London: 2001).
Might Bernard Cornwell's novel Stonehenge provide some ideas?
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The "Bernard Cornwell" is not a name I would use in this forum if you wish to retain respect or credibility.
Didn't he write Sharp Practice for Too fat Lardies? :D
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Well, excuse me for trying to be helpful.
I only mentioned his novel (novels are fiction, after all) Stonehenge because it may suggest a few scenarios, ones that might be just as (im)plausible as the ones that were already put forward...
By the way, your reply did not seem to be in keeping with what I had thought to be the generally friendly and helpful tone of this forum...
WuZhuiQiu - word to the wise
The "Bernard Cornwell" is not a name I would use in this forum if you wish to retain respect or credibility.
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"Overly sensitive"? No, not really. However, you don't know me and I don't know you, so smileys would have helped.
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Replied! As mentioned, I think that we may have (re-)enacted another possible bronze age scenario! Representatives from two neighbouring tribes meet at a river ford, misunderstand each other's dialects, and a fight ensues!
;)
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I will happily add that my own Arthurian project has a HUGE Cornwell influence! And I will fight to defend the respectability of that!
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We are, afterall, playing with small toy soldiers rather than writing an article for a peer reviewed journal.
So each to his own ;)
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Bezzo, here are some more suggestions for your reading list:
Frances Pryor (again) Britain BC - as well as being a good summary of mid-2000s understanding of the archaeology, Pryor makes some fun connections between known bronze age practices and technologies and Arthurian legend, which should get your creative juices flowing. Pryor does a lot of general books (and TV appearances), but his own specialist field is bronze age fenland.
Michael Parker Pearson Bronze Age Britain - part of an English Heritage series. Lots of useful pictures, including reconstructions.
Barry Cunliffe (ed) Prehistoric Europe: An Illustrated History - a very useful general account from the doyen of iron age archaeology, despite the oxymoronic title.
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Thanks steve
Francis Pryor is a hero in my eyes. Erudite and informative and a good advocate for history in general (despite having a beard which needs trimming). lol
and he tried to pre-flavour the sheep on his farm by feeding them mint!!! A proper British eccentric ;D
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Ok...so plenty background for you now then?
Let see some scenario's nicely photographed figures and a decent after action report eh?
:D
What figures are you using? Foundry? Or the larger Jim Bowen range from monolith?
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I did write a big long post last night regarding various scenarios but due to a poor internet connection it keeps timing out.
A few years ago I visited the Archaeological Museum in Copenhagen where there was a wonderful display of Bronze age weapons and boats. The display had an illustrated book which to my regret I didn't buy. Perhaps one of our Danish members could get more details for you.
http://www.vikingtoday.com/articles/2008/20080415.htm
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It would be a great period to game and like others have mentioned the early Irish Myths could be a great source of imformation for gaming scenarios and describe heroic warfare which seems to have a similair feel to those of Homer, even though these Myths may relate to much later times.
In archaeological terms the period in Western Europe saw people carving up the land and the division of land, eithier being grabbed up by powerful individuals or tribes. Ok, it's pre-history but a lot can be gained from the archaeological record if you know where to look.
It saw a proto arms race in the tems of the development of rapiers, spears, daggers, swords and axes all made in bronze (those that have argued for bronze axes of the period being used for tree felling...try cutting a tree down with one!!!...i and a few friends tried with very good replica using the same metal alloys and cast in the same manner in the late 90's as an archaeological experiment, the axe was soon too blunt to cut! lol) Other metal items include fragments of helmets, grieves and shields but how common they were is at present highly speculative and even if they were worn in combat but worn for display. Swords of the period display nicks along cutting edges to suggest they where used in combat against other swords and the tips of bronze spear heads have been found lodged in human bones. The style of swords also suggests warfare or combat was at times up close and very personal. Horse equipment also shows up for the first time.
Some have argued that the production of metal and metal artefacts of the period were both considered to be 'magical' processes and perhaps the weapons themselves were considered to have had magic or at least a spirit imbued in them. The source of the metal ores would have been controlled and highly protected and large scale or industrial mining susch as at the Great Orme went on.
The period saw the rise of enclosed settlements and a much greater reliance of farmed livestock i.e cattle and these would have both needed to be protected from nieghbours even if open warfare wasnt an everyday occurance but raiding would have perhaps been more common. It also saw the settlement of marginal land i.e uplands and river valleys occuring suggesting that good agricultural land was at a premium and populations were growing.
Metal objects were also hoarded during the period and many 'founders' hoards composed of broken bronze fragments of weapons have been found and these suggest bronze was a very highly controlled resource in society.
Trade with Europe and Britain went on and sea going vessels have been found, tidal rivers were navigated and so were our inland waterways, large dugout wooden boats have been found in places like the Humber and Trent.
Conspicious consumption through feasting and displays of giving up precious items to the 'God's' (normally in wet places like rivers and bogs) have been found in the archaeological context. The climate also appears to have been milder and wetter than today with a much greater rainfall and this has been considered to be a driving factor in a greater stratification of society and perhaps one of the drivers of structured society and all the things it brings with it i.e tribes and tribal leaders, followers, politics and squabbles.
Hope this quick overview from an ex-archaeologists and wargamer gives a bit of food for thought for the period :) even if his spelling is lousy
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It would be a great period to game and like others have mentioned the early Irish Myths could be a great source of imformation for gaming scenarios and describe heroic warfare which seems to have a similair feel to those of Homer, even though these Myths may relate to much later times.
... and especially as one reason for the similarities may be that the monks who wrote them down knew their Homer, and were influenced by "him". Still, there is absolutely nothing wrong with gaming myth, legend or fiction while still trying to imbue it with the proper historical flavour.
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Since reading this topic a few weeks I couldn't help but wonder... what's actually wrong with with Bernard Cornwell anyway? :P
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I'll bite!
I have cheerfully scorned Cornwell in public since he first was published. That's not to say I didn't buy most of the Sharpey books, but I keep them in a closet out of shame. The Arthurian "Warlord" trilogy is equally dire, IMO.
But I think he's getting better. The Grail Quest trilogy (setting aside a bit of silliness) captured warfare in the Hundred Years War rather well, as does the standalone "Azincourt/Agincourt". And these past two weeks, as the missus has been in the hospital again, I have blazed through all but the most recent of the Saxon series, and those too capture warfare in the period (c.9th) very well, I think.
I didn't care for "Stonehenge" much, and would place it with the rest of his work of the last millennium. This past decade, however, he seems to have matured considerably as a writer.
Allen
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Since reading this topic a few weeks I couldn't help but wonder... what's actually wrong with with Bernard Cornwell anyway? :P
I have to agree with you Christian, especially on a forum devoted to 'adventure'; his books might not be litery masterpieces, but they are perfect pieces of pulp style adventure literature, along with many of the other greats of that genre - Wilbur Smith, Clive Cussler, et al.
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Thinking Bronze age, seem to remember Bulgaria has yielded a fair number of Bronze-age artifacts........
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I dare say...... lol!
I would love to see the place though.... nice wine.....
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A friend at work has just bought a 'cottage' there for £4000.
Not one of mine was it lol ;)
cheers
James
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I have seen photos and I'd far rather live in something you had built James.
Let's say "it has potential" as in potential to be a shed if you carried out some serious improvements.
But what does £4000 get you these days, for Madonna maybe a handbag?
(pause as everyone raises their voices 3 octaves and says "A Handbag?") lol lol
Ha ha ha!!!!!!!! Nice one!
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I have seen photos and I'd far rather live in something you had built James.
I'm still trying to work out if that's a compliment or not lol lol lol
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I'm still trying to work out if that's a compliment or not lol lol lol
Look on the bright side buddy! :)
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Look on the bright side buddy! :)
That's alright, Steve's just trying to be funny ;D
cheers
James
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Strangely I started this thread with a quite different agenda to imagining myself living in a 25mm house. ::) ::)
lol