Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Florin on December 02, 2007, 03:55:08 PM
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hi,
I'm thinking about doing an Tortuga-project, during the time, when this was the main base of the carribean pirates. As this was a french colony then and there was a french garrision and gouverneur, I'm asking myself, what kind of french soldiers would be best fit for the garrision (or other soldiers, I could convert into the French). Till now I saw AWI, French Indian War and SYW french soldiers, wich all seem to be a little out of the epoch. Well it's not necessary to be too historically correct, but I would like the soldiers not to be too far out of the tortuga-era.
The second problem is, that I dont know, wich colour to take, where the carribiean colonial troops wearing blue or white or something else?
thanks for any help,
Flo
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The main period of piracy in Tortuga seems to have been the 1640s to 1670s. For the earlier part I would recommend some Thirty Years' War or English Civil War miniatures. There's a plenty of them; for example, take a look at Foundry & Perry at the smaller, Renegade & Bicorne at the larger side of the 28mm standard. Some musketeers would be okay, although this 'cape dresses' were rather for guard units, as I got it.
If you're aiming for the later period, watch for the keywords "Spanish Succession" or "Marlburian Era". Front Rank produces an extensive range for this period. Personally I also like Foundry's range a lot - if they weren't at these prices...
All that will give you some very nice and fitting miniatures me thinks. :)
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Thanks a lot. I think, looking at most models of pirates that are available, I should better go with the later period, the "Marlburian" (where comes this name from?) and "Spanish Succession". Most pirate figures out there seem more fit for the age of tricornes than for the 30years war-period.
And if I really wanted to be historically correct on this, the early buccaneers where looking more like wild-west trappers than like what we would see as typical pirates today (their original "job" was hunting pigs on the island of Hispaniola), later they turned more to the apearance, we take as "piratish" today, as more and more ex-sailors got into piracy.
Still I got the problem with the uniform colour - aesthetical I tend to make them white.
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White or light gray is never a bad choice for the French or Spanish. If you want to differentiate between units, paint the cuffs different colors. Black would be the most common color for the colonial militias, followed by red and blue.
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So I can stay with white, thats good.
The Spanish are another interesting point, as they were on the one hand the the main target of the buccaneers and on the other hand attacked Tortuga several times. So I will for shure do some Spanish "enemies" of my small-scale Tortuga. Where the spanish uniforms much different in style or can I just use the same as for the Frensh and differenciate by the colours?
p.s.: I just read, that pirate activity in tortuga went on till about 1688, so I have even a little more freedom for the style of my little islanders. :mrgreen:
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I have never come across a good set of information about Spanish uniforms during the period. I have the Funcken Lace Wars, and their information on Spanish infantry during the time before the Seven Years' War is limited to two tiny pictures, one of which is a grenadier of the guards. There's also a plate in one of the Ospreys that shows the Spanish garrison of Porto Bello wearing white coats. The officers have black hats of that pre-tricorne style.
So I'd say that using white for the Spanish falls under the category of "highly plausible". If you wanted to differentiate, I'd use white coats and black cuffs for the Spanish, and pale gray and blue cuffs for the French.
Edit: You can also use your Spanish as Floridians, meaning that you can use these guys as enemies of your Atlantic pirates as late as the start of the American Revolution. The old-style Marlburian coat in that later period is a good way to reflect a poor, undersupplied colonial garrison.
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Yes, funny enough, that you cant find much information for one of the big powers of the period. I'll just do as you suggested, knowing, that even the marlburian style for my garrison and the Spanish will be a little "modern" for the real Tortuga.
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I have never come across a good set of information about Spanish uniforms during the period.
I have found this small video reference in Youtube
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=BBqCI0idTyM
Some good examples there. There are very good collections in the Army Museum of Toledo, but there are no pictures online.
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Thanks, Keyan! I'll have to check at home later as YouTube is blocked here.
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My pleasure! I can do more research for you if you like. There is a very good spanish forum on military history and uniforms, but it is so full of data that I couldn't find anything related to the period yet.
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I think, looking at most models of pirates that are available, I should better go with the later period, the "Marlburian" (where comes this name from?) and "Spanish Succession". Most pirate figures out there seem more fit for the age of tricornes than for the 30years war-period.
Good point with that. Thanks to KeyanSark we should know better about uniform types soon. :)
To clarify something else: The "Marlburian period" was named by British historians after Lord Marlborough (originally John Churchill), who was a British general in the War of the Spanish Succession. He was somewhat a military genius and responsible for many of the Alliance's victories against the Sun King.
Further note: The tricorne was introduced (or better: developed) after the 1670s. So you can't go wrong with most miniatures wearing hats with only one or two sides lifted up, like this (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/MARLBURIAN/1/index.asp).
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I should better go with the later period, the "Marlburian" (where comes this name from?)
John Churchill, First Duke of Marlborough, commanded the British forces in the War of the Spanish Succession. Most notable battles include Ramillies, Blenheim and Malplaquet.
*/smartass mode*
I´m most interested in seeing the outcome, as well. If you want to go for a slight "Hollywood flair", I´d definitely recommend Marlburians.
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My pleasure! I can do more research for you if you like. There is a very good spanish forum on military history and uniforms, but it is so full of data that I couldn't find anything related to the period yet.
I would very much appreciate this. Very little material on the uniforms of the Spanish armies of the Golden Age up to the Napoleonic Era have been translated into English.
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Another possible source of figures :
"Reiver Castings" from "Under the Bed Enterprises"
http://www.underbed.co.uk/
I realise it is a bit of an odd name, but they are quite reasobnable looking figures (although some of the peasant figures seem to suffer from a bit of flash), and they cover the period 1670-1720 quite nicely with ranges for James II and the Monmouth Rebellion/Glorious Revolution (1685/1688) and the Great Northern War (1700-1721).
Not many pictures on the site though.
Alternately, "Trent Miniatures" from "Stratagem" used to have some quite good early 1700s figures, but they don't have a website and are not listed anywhere that I can find. They paint nicely if you can find them.
You might be able to get information by emailing :
http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/reader.asp
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I am using the new Front Rank Marlburians for French Marines, they are lovely castings and if you pick their Grenadiers they have 2 guys throwing Grenades which is ideal for ship board actions :)
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Thanks to all for the information and help. This really is a great forum.
I´m most interested in seeing the outcome, as well. If you want to go for a slight "Hollywood flair", I´d definitely recommend Marlburians.
Yeah, a little "Hollywood" is good. Just didnt want it to be too historically incorrect.
the project will take some time (and money), and I'm rather slow in painting and building, but I'll see if I can lend me a camera once in a while to show you the work in progress.
@fastolfrus: are there any pictures of the "Under the Bed"-minis? Didnt find any.
@KeyanSark: I would really be glad if you can find some more about the Spanish troops in this period. Thanks for the youtube-link.
All in all the Front Rank-stuff looks pretty good to me.
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@fastolfrus: are there any pictures of the "Under the Bed"-minis? Didnt find any.
They used to be known as Reiver castings IIRC and were sold by Old Glory
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White or light gray is never a bad choice for the French or Spanish. If you want to differentiate between units, paint the cuffs different colors. Black would be the most common color for the colonial militias, followed by red and blue.
Musicians would have facing colours /tunic reversed e.g. Grey coat and blue tunic for infnatry - musician would have blue coat and grey facings :)
I plan on mine being Grey blue
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And if I really wanted to be historically correct on this, the early buccaneers where looking more like wild-west trappers than like what we would see as typical pirates today (their original "job" was hunting pigs on the island of Hispaniola)
Not only that but they fought or rather attacked ships in small rowing boats
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Another Option is using Musketeers Swedes with Tricornes they are form 1700-1721 and would fit well, lovely figures too :love:
http://www.musketeer-miniatures.com/range.php?r=6
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Not only that but they fought or rather attacked ships in small rowing boats
yes, small rowing boat and later pretty small ships with a lot of pirates on board. I think it was simply easier to get hold these kind of vessels and to get away with them in this world of tiny islands too. Pirates fiering cannon to warships in open battle was rather rare too. They just tried to get away from the military ships (no plunder/ too much resistance). Normaly they "persuaded" merchantships (some pretty small themselves) that it was healthier for them to give up. Not more fights than absolutely necessary....
But all this is just not so amusing as the Hollywood pirate picture.
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Another Option is using Musketeers Swedes with Tricornes they are form 1700-1721 and would fit well, lovely figures too :love:
http://www.musketeer-miniatures.com/range.php?r=6
swedish spaniards... :mrgreen: these look really good.
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Oh yes those Swedes would be great with the pike armed figures you could put boarding pikes in their hands or use them as garrison troops with a small pike and shot unit representing old fashioned drill manuals etc :mrgreen:
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@Pete
Here is a pic of spanish troops circa 1766, when the Royal dinasty changed to the Borbons
(http://www.oronoz.com/imagenes/marcadas/imagenes00/004725.jpg)
More XVIII infantry uniforms
(http://www.oronoz.com/imagenes/marcadas/imagenes00/006747.jpg)
Halberdiers and Line infantry from 1700-1718
(http://www.oronoz.com/imagenes/marcadas/imagenes00/006746.jpg)
Light Infantry XVIII
(http://www.oronoz.com/imagenes/marcadas/imagenes00/004484.jpg)
Try this link for many, many more covering spanish infantry since middle age
Spanish Infantry Pics (http://www.oronoz.com/muestrafotostitulos.php?id=UNIFORME&tabla=Claves&pedido=UNIFORME&_pagi_pg=2). I can help you with any translation needed.
I think it is also important to remember that the spanish flag since the Catholic Kings to 1785 was this
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Flag_of_New_Spain.svg/125px-Flag_of_New_Spain.svg.png)
Changed to the actual colors in 1785
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Flag_of_Spain_%281785-1873_and_1875-1931%29.svg/205px-Flag_of_Spain_%281785-1873_and_1875-1931%29.svg.png)
Note that shield was different from the actual one (there is an interesting history with the spanish shield, but I think is out of scope with the topic)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Flag_of_Spain.svg/200px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png)
Hope it helps!
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Magnificent! I wonder if the change of dynasty introduced the French uniform system as well, which was pretty regular by the 1760s. I believe Tercios were dressed according to the whim of the colonel. Perhaps the French system required a greater degree of uniformity.
Thanks very much, and I've saved these photos for my files.
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Indeed! The portraited uniforms have a great influence from french armies of the era. If you see some of the uniforms from the XVI (the Austrias dinasty) they were completely different and more similar to the standard "conquistador" image we all have in mind. The Alatriste outfit is from this period, not the Borbonic one.
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: are there any pictures of the "Under the Bed"-minis? Didnt find any.
If you go onto their site, http://www.underbed.co.uk/
there is an entry on the left menu bar for Reiver 28mm figures which will bring up a list.
Most have no pictures, but if you scroll down to King James II and the Glorious Revolution there are some illustrations there, on my screen they have blue underlines and say "painted by Andy Copestake" or "painted by Northumbrian painting services".
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@KeyanSark: this is pretty much what I needed for the Spanish (esacially the earlier uniforms). Thanks a lot. And good point with the flag, didnt think of that.
@fastolfrus: found the pictures. They look pretty good too.
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@Pete and Florin
More info, and very detailed, here:
http://www.geocities.com/regdeamerica/
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And the most detailed one I've found so far, including many of the pictures found in the first place with details on Corps and Years
Album of Spanish Infantry (http://www.lilliputmodel.com/alabarda/uniformes/esp/inf/clonard/inf_clonard.htm)
It covers pictures from the pre-roman to 1862. The most interesting pictures for this topic are located on the Dinastía Austríaca and Dinastía Borbónica topics (XVI and XVII centuries)
I think this deserves a good pint of beer! :D
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Found this list of uniforms for Spanish troops and where they were stationed from the early 1700s
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u94/Lowtardog/UniEspagne.jpg)
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The New York Public Library has a great digital collection of uniform plates:
http://www.bronzeagemin.com/miniatures_html/25MM/historical/Pirates/28mmPirate-set-1.htm
Click on Collection Contents and go from there.
And KeyanSark, that's a fantastic weblink that you posted!!! :)
Dan Schorr sells CD uniform information and color plates. CD #8 is Spanish Armies of the War of the League of Augsburg 1688 to 1697:
http://www.northernwars.com/Hall%20CDs.html
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Lowtardog, that is a truly excellent resource! Thank you!
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The main period of piracy in Tortuga seems to have been the 1640s to 1670s. For the earlier part I would recommend some Thirty Years' War or English Civil War miniatures. :)
I agree with Mad Doc Morris that Thirty Years War and English Civil War minis would work best for the historical buccaneer period from about 1640 to 1680. From 1680 to 1705 it would be better to use miniatures for the Monmouth Rebellion or the War of the Grand Alliance (also called the War of the League of Augsburg or the Nine Years War -- 1688 to 1697). Dixon makes some great miniatures for this period:
http://www.dixonminiatures.co.uk/dixoncatalogue.asp?maintype=11
Also Foundry's Marlburian lines have "early" Marlburians in the "informal tricorne" (basically a floppy hat not yet crisply turned up on three sides):
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/MARLBURIAN/index.asp
Packs from the first and third collections work for this late 17th Century period. The ones with matchlocks and bandoliers are particularly good.
The troops with formal tricornes are historically better after about 1705, but that is really the time for Hollywood pirates.
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If you are interested in Spanish flags, check out this site:
http://www.banderasmilitares.com/todas.php
There are more Spanish flags which you can print out from this site:
http://www.warflag.com/flags/wss/wssspain.shtml
While you are at warflag you could check out the pirate flags too:
http://www.warflag.com/flags/pirates/pirate.shtml
If you are interested in Spanish infantry over several centuries, check out this site:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/8745/infanteria/historia.htm
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That's a great color plate, Lowtardog! Where did is come from?
There are similar color plates for the French just after 1700 at this site:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/gbfwss/
In the late 1600s the French also had a bit more variety in coat colors, though not as much variety as those of the Spanish army of that period.
The uniforms from the color plate posted by Lowtardog are for the late 1600s, when regiments first adopted uniforms, until about 1705. In 1706, if not a little before, Philip V was reclothing his regiments in white coats with variously colored cuffs. Philip V picked white to distinquish his troops from the French who mostly wore grey coats. The Spanish regiment which provided companies for garrisons in some of the Spanish ports in the New World wore blue coats with red cuffs.
Also note that the Spanish had three regiments named "Armada" in the late 1600s, which were basically the Spanish marines. Armada Viejo (Old) wore blue coats with red cuffs. Armada wore yellow coats with blue cuffs. And Armada Nuevo (New) wore white coats with red cuffs. This is per that uniform CD#8 that I bought from Dan Schorr and from a booklet by Hinds on the Spanish Army of Philip V. That is different from the "Viejo Armada" and "Nuevo Armada" in the color plate posted by Lowtardog. It can be difficult to track Spanish regiments as they changed name and location multiple times during this period.
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Just found this thread and thought to add my 2 cents. If your still looking for figures Old Glory has some nice ones. Under historicals, 1600's to 1700's, The Wars of Marlborough. They have an extensive line of different uniforms. I don't work for Old Glory but I do buy a lot of their figures. Also these figures paint up nice, I have a couple units of generic government troops.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee130/jbuckvb/Pirates/figures041.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee130/jbuckvb/Pirates/figures043.jpg)
Some more pictures at my photobucket site. Hope this helps,
Justin
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee130/jbuckvb/
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Just found this thread and thought to add my 2 cents. If your still looking for figures Old Glory has some nice ones. Under historicals, 1600's to 1700's, The Wars of Marlborough.
If any of you are interested in doing Spanish in the early 1700s (about 1700 to 1720) the Old Glory packs to use are MW-13 and MW-18 from this page:
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/products.asp?cat=210&pg=2
Those have the ribbon or cord on the right shoulder that the Spanish used until sometime between 1715 and 1720 when they quit using the ribbon or cord (dragonera). They also have the right belly box (for cartridges) that the Spanish adopted after 1700 based on the French one. Paint the cockade red as Justin Buck did, because that was the characteristic national cockade color for the Spanish (black for the French during war and white for the French at peace).
The MW-24 grenadier pack on the next page has the right Spanish grenadier hat (cloth front, semi-stiff bag, and fur edging around the bottom).
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wonderfull! just ask and you get all the information you need... got to love this forum. I think after christmas I'll go to work on the projekt.
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That's a great color plate, Lowtardog! Where did is come from?
I will post the link when I get home, it has a poor band width so locked me out last night. It covers the Tercios form the 16th up until the 18th C and I think is form George Gush or some one.
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That's a great color plate, Lowtardog! Where did is come from?
I will post the link when I get home, it has a poor band width so locked me out last night. It covers the Tercios form the 16th up until the 18th C and I think is form George Gush or some one.
They are fantastic! You couldn't design more outlandish colours for an imaginary 18thC army. I was considering having my forthcoming government troops in boring grey or white, but some of these uniforms.... Wow! :love: :o :D
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Here is the link on Tercios guys, as I said the bandwidth is limited so you may not get much of a chance each day to look at the site :?
http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html?20075
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This is my favorite thread of the week. :love: Everytime I come back I learn something new.
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Here are a couple of more useful links
short work on Spanish Marines
http://personal.redestb.es/esz/ipasado.htm
This site has shed loads of plates on uniforms
http://www.military-historians.org/company/plates/images/Platesto400.htm#aa
example French Marines
http://www.military-historians.org/company/plates/images/673.htm
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If the War of Spanish Succession is of interest, check out this link:
http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/
Or this site in Spanish (I think- not sure):
http://www.webpersonal.net/moria/
If you need French flags for this period try this French site by clicking on France and Ancien Regime (note that most of the regiment names in the first section are based on the names as of 1789):
http://www.drapeaux.org/Accueil.htm
If you want to see masses of WSS figures and flags in action, check out the pictures on this site about the big Blenheim game in 2004 (some of those units are mine):
http://www.warflag.com/blenheim2004/enfilade.html
We also did Ramilles in 2006, but the only picture is of the French guard:
http://www.warflag.com/blenheim2004/ramilles/index.html
I know I'm getting a bit off the topic of Tortuga. But the great seige of Vienna, Monmouth's Rebellion, the Nine Years War, the Glorious Revolution, the War of Spanish Succession, and the Great Northern War, all this from about 1683 to 1721, is a great period for Swashbuckling intrigue.
Also, these wars had a big impact on what was happening with pirates. The Nine Years War from 1688 to 1697 and the War of Spanish Succession from 1701 to 1714 was an extended period of full employment for sailors, as navies and privateers hired or impressed all the seamen that could be had. The fact that Spain and England and the Netherlands were all allied against France in the Nine Years War put a virtual stop to piracy in the Carribean. This coincided with a crackdown on piracy in the Carribbean. The main arena for piracy shifted to the Indian Ocean during the 1690s. After the War of Spanish Succession ended, many sailors were thrown out of work and the last major flare up of piracy in the Americas occurred about 1715 to 1725.
Then again, why stop with Totuga. Somebody in the group could work on a French base in the Carribbean, another could work on British Jamaica, another on a Spanish base, another on a Dutch base, and another on a Danish base. Just for inspiration, here are some plates of Danish uniforms in the 1670s:
http://www.northernwars.com/DaInfSK.html
http://www.northernwars.com/DanInfPlt.html
And some flags and history, including a flag of the Danish naval battalions at Lund in 1676:
http://www.northernwars.com/DanInf.html
For a comparison with Danish infantry from 1699 to 1712, this:
http://www.northernwars.com/DaInf.html
The Danes were in the Carribbean from 1672 at St. Thomas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_West_Indies
And click on the link to the US Virgin islands from there for more pictures and maps.
But, to go back to Tortuga and the French, here is a link to the French uniform plates at the New York Public Library's Vinkhuijzen collection:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614958&level=2&tword=
And for the Spanish:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614973&level=2&tword=
And for the Netherlands:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614966&level=2&tword=
And, last but not least, a link to the Wiki article on Tortuga:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortuga
Perhaps the Tortuga scenario should start in 1645 when the acting French governor imported 1,650 prostitutes to try to get control of the buccaneers!
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Or this site in Spanish (I think- not sure):
http://www.webpersonal.net/moria/
Well, it is not spanish (castillian) but catalán but indeed is a website about the Spanish Succession War :wink:
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perhaps the Tortuga scenario should start in 1645 when the acting French governor imported 1,650 prostitutes to try to get control of the buccaneers!
yeah, there are different ways to conduct your inner politics... :lol:
but to match with most of the available minis I will have to go to a little later time (but shure I will need some "ladies" for the island).
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Or this site in Spanish (I think- not sure):
http://www.webpersonal.net/moria/
Well, it is not spanish (castillian) but catalán but indeed is a website about the Spanish Succession War :wink:
I thought that it might be Catalan, as it didn't look like Spanish or Portuguese to me. I had heard about a Catalan language, but had never seen it in print and had never heard it spoken. Since a lot of the subject matter focused on Catalonia I thought there was a possibility that the website was in that language. I suppose the aspirations of Catalonia to independence from Spain make the events of the War of Spanish Succession of interest there.
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but to match with most of the available minis I will have to go to a little later time (but shure I will need some "ladies" for the island).
If you go with English Civil War and Thirty Years War figures, those are perfect for 1645. Also many of the Three Musketeers type swashbuckling figures that are coming out now from companies like Brigade Games and Blue Moon would be perfect for 1645.
Look at this older thread for useful figures for "ladies" in a swashbuckling context:
http://forum.backofbeyond.de/viewtopic.php?t=1396
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If you go with English Civil War and Thirty Years War figures, those are perfect for 1645. Also many of the Three Musketeers type swashbuckling figures that are coming out now from companies like Brigade Games and Blue Moon would be perfect for 1645.
http://forum.backofbeyond.de/viewtopic.php?t=1396
I didnt so much mean the military guys but the pirates that are sold...
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Sure, the painting and figure info is nice, but what about something to listen to while slapping the paint on? I suggest the free audio book of Sabatini's "Captain Blood"!
http://www.archive.org/details/captain_blood_librivox
Thanks for all of the great info everyone.
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If you go with English Civil War and Thirty Years War figures, those are perfect for 1645. Also many of the Three Musketeers type swashbuckling figures that are coming out now from companies like Brigade Games and Blue Moon would be perfect for 1645.
http://forum.backofbeyond.de/viewtopic.php?t=1396
I didnt so much mean the military guys but the pirates that are sold...
It is worth watching TAG as they are producing a huge range for 30YW and for Spanish going back to Italian wars forward for Wars of religion etc.
For early stuff too the OG Wars of Religion are nice figures too not the usual size either, much larger