Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Silent Invader on December 24, 2011, 08:18:07 AM
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After asking lots of questions and receiving very helpful answers I've started painting my first warband.
With painting just started I wanted to be sure that I'm not way off the mark in terms of livery colours and comments would be appreciated.
This is an entirely fictitious colour scheme using Vallejo Prussian Blue and GW Scab Red for a West Ham scheme that became more washed out when adding white for highlighting. The first warband is an experienced group who are well-funded and so I've gone for a 'uniform' look.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/imagebucket_2006/WotR/wotr_wip_01.jpg)
As it happens, this 'warband' will be the prominent component of my army, being led by the Lord's son with and wearing the same colours as the Lord's own personal retinue. To give you some idea of the composition*:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/imagebucket_2006/WotR/wotr_wip_00.jpg)
I've mostly gone for the "no one knows so do what amuses you" (I paraphrase :D) approach but I still want to be historical rather than Warhammer (if you know what I mean ;)).
One thing I'm not sure about is banners.... I've read that livery colours didn't match coats-of-arms but would I be wrong to use my livery colours for the flags?
Cheers
*PS: Those who know me won't be surprised that the 250-mini army has been organised via spreadsheet and is bagged-up into the respective units and awaiting assembly! lol
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Its certainly striking. :o
I'm not sure I would have done the whole figure in livery that bold, just jackets or trousers depending on what they were wearing, but I can see where you are coming from with the "wealthy, fully uniformed" look. Once the other details are in to break it up it'll look fabtastical.
Regarding the banners - from what I've seen, they didn't necessarily match liveries, but some did and some didn't and I have taken my own liveries from the main colours of the banners because it looks nice to me on the tabletop. I think it's another "see what looks best and go with that cos nobody has a definite answer" moment.
Nice work so far, mate. :)
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Very nice. I have a box but never get around to doing anything with them. Yours look like they've got off to a great start.
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Great stuff Steve. :)
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Nice work so far, but baby blue and pink? Not sure I'd want to field an army looking like that. Maybe some stripes in a darker shade would tone them down a bit.
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Some very nice figure builds there, Steve, and some bits and pieces of conversion too :)
I do agree though, that the pinky-blue is coming up a wee bit pale for the true Hammers claret-and-blue look...
Maybe start with a slightly darker basecoat so your top coat isn't quite so pale?
It is very hard to get right. I've been painting some figures this morning, and it's almost irresistible to hold back from adding just one more highlight, then another one... And before you know it, you've ended up with a much lighter shade than you meant to... ::)
Glad to see you giving full rein to your OCD though, having precisely spreadsheeted every tiny detail of the entire project in advance :D
That's the spirit - like so many other things in life: the anticipation is every bit as rewarding as the fulfillment! (If not more so) lol
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One of the Grey family iirc (Anthony?) used pink as one of his livery colours (The other was 'ermine' I think. He was a major show off at jousts though, so had an 'image' to present... his badge was a unicorn). Let's face it, by 1475 all the most obvious combinations had been done to death. Sons/brothers often had their own livery colours too, which I'd imagine would be more likely if they held land in their own right. The Earl of Arundel and his son, Lord Maltravers did, as did the Bourchiers and a couple of others that slip my mind.
Personally I'd have gone for a darker blue and confined livery colours to the jacket, or alternated the hose colours to the opposite of the jacket, but that's just me.
Some nobles did use their coat of arms as livery colours, some didn't. Badges could be based on items appearing as part of the coat of arms or sometimes not. You were associated with your badges back then, more so than your coat of arms (which were quite complex designs by the 15th Century), so 'manly devices' were favourites. Being nicknamed 'Hammers' would be ok.. but I imagine nobody chose daisies or pansies much as the chief design.
Looking good though!
;)
P.S. I too 'over-plan' (sounds better than obsessive). Organising figures pre-paint several times is usual for me, but haven't progressed to spreadsheets (yet). Sometimes prominent figures have a background created before they are undercoated.
:?
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The claret colour is easy to go overboard with, I'd stear well clear of adding white.
I add a tiny bit of flesh or plaka vermilion for the highlight.
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Nice work so far, but baby blue and pink? Not sure I'd want to field an army looking like that. Maybe some stripes in a darker shade would tone them down a bit.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/cavalry-officers-cavalry-officer-homoerotic-demotivational-poster-1254927793.jpg)
Obviously the WotR had the drop on 18th Century Cav...
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I've got most of the metal minis but (HORROR! :o) I've found I prefer working with the plastics as they go together very well indeed.
My experience exactly ;)
(Reinforced by the fact that the casting on some of the metal range is frankly awful... ::))
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My experience exactly ;)
(Reinforced by the fact that the casting on some of the metal range is frankly awful... ::))
Yeah, casting is the Perry's achilles heel and it's not as if they are old moulds :o
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They look quite striking but surely if they are painted in West Ham colours you have to wonder if they'll ever win anything lol
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Great colours...I like it..more!! :) :)
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Yeah, casting is the Perry's achilles heel and it's not as if they are old moulds :o
I would say they probably need a new caster, but having said that the Perry stlye is quite angular and fine I have always thought and must be a bugger to mould up and cast.
Nice colour combo on the livery, but I would make them a little less "powdery" I keep thinking of two tone babygrows :)
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Looking good 8) though I might pick out the faces a bit more (highlight on the cheeks, nose and chin etc :) ).
cheers
James
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They work for me. :)
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Yep, looking pretty good to me, can't see much wrong with those, I would be happy to put them on the table. :)
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Very nice, Steve. I like those very much, and you've come up with a couple of great new poses there which I shall have to nick! :D
Especially like the added arrows. Might have to nick that too ;)
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Those are mighty fine. I like the pose on the second in from the left, he looks like he his about to parry a blow from another.
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those really are superbly done
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Really nice job, mate, the livery colours have come out really well. :-*
If I were to be hyper critical, it looks like you've painted the brigandines on two of them as plate armour (third archer from the left, fourth billman) when they should be cloth with metal studs. But that really is a tiny thing and only stands out to me because I nearly went crosseyed picking all the studs out on my own. They still look awesome. 8)
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Lovely Yorkist Troops there Steve :-* :-* :-* :-*
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yep, the wotr perry spues are simply brilliant: from the same pieces you can have really different minis! =) i loved them when i had. If I only had time to paint at least one of them...
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That's right.
Kent mostly. And London. How ironic... ::)
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Though I recall reading somewhere that the Yorkists didn't actually garner much support from Yorkshire.
Miserable buggers, that's why lol ;)
cheers
James
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lol, you british fellas. When you pull out your britishness we all feel so inferior... :P
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That's right.
Kent mostly. And London. How ironic... ::)
Kind of makes sense when you think that the Duke of Devonshire is actually in Derbyshire :D
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And the Duke of Norfolk in Arundel, Sussex... ::)
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Isn't Richmond (the real one not the southern pretender :D ) castle actually Henry's, So that's the house of Lancaster in Yorkshire ::)
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It is all a bit odd... The Lancastrian's main power base was Yorkshire, Northumberland and Cumbria, while the first Duke of York's main holdings were in Shropshire and the Welsh Marches. The Duke of Exeter's lands were mainly in the North-East too. Only the Earls of Devon, Warwick and the Duke of Somerset seem to have had vast estates in the areas they drew their titles from. Kent, Essex, East Anglia and London were strongly Yorkist due to the concentration of nobles around there (the Bourchiers, Fitzalans and Mowbrays etc).
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Cumbria was made up from Lancashire, Westmorland and Cumberland which makes it even more confusing :)
cheers
James
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At least the contemporary writer of the ballad "Rose of Rouen" celebrated the bloodbath of Towton as victory of the South over the North.
Let's not forget the Yorkists also had support from the middle and upper classes of the trading cities and also those fed up with the corrupt and incompetent government which had tormented England during the reign of Henry VI and lost the war against France.
Richard of York and his Warwick allies had some power base in the North as well, but only Richard of Gloucester gained major support and sympathy in the North.
The conception of Yorkshire vs. Lancashire and the name War of the Roses is more a thing which was made up by Walter Scott.
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Isn't Richmond (the real one not the southern pretender :D ) castle actually Henry's, So that's the house of Lancaster in Yorkshire ::)
Are you a pretender if you neither know or care than they may be other places called Richmond? lol lol lol
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Richard of York and his Warwick allies had some power base in the North as well, but only Richard of Gloucester gained major support and sympathy in the North.
Richard of York had a castle at Middleham which is about 10 miles away from Richmond!
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Most of the big families had estates all over the place, but generally had areas where they had a lot of 'influence'. The Percy-Neville dispute, which pretty much shaped the WotR, was the result of an established family's (Percy) influence in an area being challenged by a nouveau-riche and up-and-coming family (Neville). This was a common theme and accounts for the polarity... if your 'competition' for power within an area joined 'A', you had to join 'B', or you would be 'outgunned' politically at a local level and local level politics, rivalries and family feuds were what fuelled the wars.
When you look at the campaigns, it's not hard to see where these power bases lay. The starting points for the various nobles are where they were recruiting their forces and gathering their supporters. Where they withdrew to when things went pear-shaped, are also usually the same areas. It would be wrong to take a map of England, get your crayons out and start marking off areas as Lancastrian or Yorkist, it was far more complicated than that. One of the key features of the mini-campaigns that formed the wars, was to stop your enemies joining up from their geographically fragmented recruiting grounds.
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...if your 'competition' for power within an area joined 'A', you had to join 'B', or you would be 'outgunned' politically at a local level and local level politics, rivalries and family feuds were what fuelled the wars.
Sounds just like life in the company I work for... ;)
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Sounds just like life in the company I work for... ;)
It's not bad analogy. In any company you have your executives who strive to build little empires for themselves and to 'network' underlings and other managers, who may or may not have something to gain by working with you. You have your backstabbers and fair-weather friends of course, along with those who will never be onside, no matter what you do.
The WotR was not a civil war, but a boardroom tussle amongst the management of England PLC, following the mis-management and hostile takeover of its subsidiary, France.
;)
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It was endemic to English society as a whole, right down to the bottom layers... even guild members relied on the support of 'better men'. We're talking rigged ballots for local bodies, preferential treatment for 'local government' posts, packed juries, the whole caboodle. Al Capone would have thought all his Sundays had come at once if he was around in 15th Century England.
The pay off for this support was of course that you turned up with weapons and kit when called and as stipulated in the contract (Indenture) you had previously agreed with them in return for their 'favour'. Nobles and gentry all had 'affinities' of people who were contracted to them, owed them favours, or who had married into the family in some way, or a myriad other reasons. Armies were formed from layer upon layer of these affinities, with some quite complex and convoluted relationships within them.
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The WotR was not a civil war, but a boardroom tussle amongst the management of England PLC, following the mis-management and hostile takeover of its subsidiary, France.
Nice 8)
One is tempted to ask who played the part of McKinseys... ::)
(Martin Schwartz perhaps? ;))
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No Schwartz headed the 15th Century equivalent of Blackwater, PMCs are not that new an innovation and were extremely numerous in 15th Century Europe. Corporate hospitality and PR for them has come on a bit though.
;)
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lol
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I love the look of these models. :-* I am working on a batch of them myself right now. Hmm but I can't get the depth of the model as nice as yours. Do you mind if I ask you a question? Did you use the Army Builder dip? If you did. How did you use it? What I mean is did you dip the model or just paint it on? I have used it on a number of models. But they all come out... well darker and to heavy with the dip. :?Should I be painting it on or dipping them?
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Great stuff Steve. ;D
I think you were robbed in the first round. ;)
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I think you've done a great job. I'd be proud to have them in my collection! :)
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Yep, extremely nice figures.
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Essex comments from us? Absolutely not, shut up! ;)
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*No comments please about urban sprawl, scrapheaps in the green belt, souped up cars, white stilletto heels or any other such Essex 'legend', this game is set in the 15thC not the 21st! :D
correct, the only way is Essex...
I'll get my coat ;)
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Surely..... I'll get my surcoat.... :-)
and don't call me Shirley...
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Surely..... I'll get my surcoat.... :-)
In this period, livery coat, actually... :D
Your collection is building rapidly Steve... We should soon be able to stage quite a big game between us ;)
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It is certainly growing indeed. Liking what I see! :)
I'm not sure they work well for Essex though... hose was traditionally worn round their ankles. :D
Sorry... ;)
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Brilliant work Steve, looking forward to seeing the rest :D
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@Richard...... Ha-hah. You've seen through my sneaky plan. ;)
I for one am looking forward to a skirmish or two in the near future ;) :D
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I for one am looking forward to a skirmish or two in the near future ;) :D
Indeed yes :D
Coming along nicely Steve 8)
cheers
James
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Grand stuff 8) 8) 8).
Darrell.
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Cant wait to see them painted up.
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Great conversions. You are a man of vision...
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More goodness. :)
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Brilliant Stuff Steve :-* :-* :-*
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Those hedges do look good 8)
But where are the birds and rabbits etc ;D
cheers
James
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I love this. Poleaxes are The Daddy. 8) Top painting and a lovely setting too.
Entitled "Le Jeu de la Hache" (transalation: the play of the axe = axeplay") it was based on a 15thC image of the same name.
Were you aware that it was also the name of a 15th Century Burgundian fighting manual detailing the use of the poleaxe in combat? Our historical fencing group have used it on occasion. Bit of a marathon as it's text only, but I have a PDF of a translation with a few illustrations from Talhoffer and other sources added in if you'd be interested in a copy?
You probably already knew all that... ::)
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I love this. Poleaxes are The Daddy. 8) Top painting and a lovely setting too.
Were you aware that it was also the name of a 15th Century Burgundian fighting manual detailing the use of the poleaxe in combat? Our historical fencing group have used it on occasion. Bit of a marathon as it's text only, but I have a PDF of a translation with a few illustrations from Talhoffer and other sources added in if you'd be interested in a copy?
You probably already knew all that... ::)
I could be tempted to give it a good read ;D ;) :).
Darrell.
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Sounds pretty intresting to me, I would be willing to give it a read.
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Right you are then chaps, I've attached it below. :)
Its actually a Word doc rather than a PDF, but I'm old and easily confused. ;D Hope you enjoy it!
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So, how did you model those nice shrubberies?
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So, how did you model those nice shrubberies?
Seconded, I would like to know too.
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I like the shrubbery alot, very convincing.
Now make us another one and place it here beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle. :D
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But where are the birds and rabbits etc ;D
cheers
James
Don't get Steve started doing bits like that James, anyway we don't have the half pence piece anymore for his bases do we lol
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Very tasty Steve. They look even better en masse :)
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Fantastic Stuff Steve, they look brilliant altogether :-* :-* :-* :-*
Can't wait to see the rest of the Army :D
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Impressive stuff, I can't wait to see them in a game(hint, hint) ;)
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Me too! :D
With the first 90 odd finished I'll be able to test the rules (a derivation of the Aliens rules.... without pulse rifles, shotguns and Aliens!) though this project will be about 250-300 minis in total
Can I provide the sound effects? ;) lol
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Fantastic looking unit. Just one question though - I was led to believe that the banner device at the top of the flag usually depicts that the banner belongs to the eldest son of... Is Sir Edward Mortimer the eldest son of Lord Rochforde or have I got my heraldry wrong? Can someone put me right if I have got it wrong please.
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Thanks for clarifying that for me. Looking forward to seeing more of this army.
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I am enjoying following your thread as you paint your army.
They are looking great.
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That seems to go along with my line of thinking, but I am not expert.
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Missed your progress so far Steve ::) but looking very good 8)
Birds and rabbits... You know you want to...
What you have in mind for the mercs sans pikes sounds good to me :)
cheers
James
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... However, having read a bit more about the WotR I understand that pikes didn't have much impact on the battlefield (which would seem to make sense if they were in limited numbers).
A common assumption is that when 'Burgundians' or 'French' are mentioned, is that the person in question was loaned a part of the standing army, so it follows that such a force would be to the proportions of their parent formation. There's no evidence to back that up (or admittedly to deny that is what happened).
To me its more likely that they would be given leave to recruit within the state and extended credit, underwritten by their sponsor. They would then recruit as best as they were able. There were numerous companies of mercenaries, as well as individuals floating about Europe looking for a war. Most of Henry VII's Bretons were taken from the local gaols though, so that's an option and of course quality would vary as a result.
Such companies of mercenaries as you outlined did exist and were numerous. There might be fifty or so men in the smaller ones and considerably more in others. In Italy they varied from a few thousand men of all types within a company, to a few hundred of varied or the same types, or even individuals hired directly by the state or ruler. As a mercenary captain, whatever the size of your company, you went where the war was that year.
Crossbowmen and Handgunners were both very common and cheap to employ in Europe and when you're cut off from your normal recruiting grounds, it's not like you have a choice anyway. You take what you can get for your money and hope folk flock to your banner when you land.
Pikes are another matter. They would be common enough in the Low Countries, who along with the Swiss, seem to have a history of success with them. Not so Charles the Bold, who looks like he used them differently. Which to me looks like it was to protect his missile troops, rather than as a steamroller or immovable object, from what I can see anyway. They don't get mentioned in England until Stoke Field in 1487, where there were a lot of them. That doesn't mean there weren't any other than that, nor does it assume that there were.
Your company, your choice to include them or not, either way would be accurate imo. Arming them with halberds or other polearms is another option of course.
That seems to go along with my line of thinking, but I am not expert.
I'd laugh if anyone claimed to be one to be honest... 'Best Guesser' is probably closer... ;)
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And Arlequin, if you haven't already you should write a book............. ;)
People writing books is what's wrong with history... ;)
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Lovely work Steve, this is fast becoming quite a collection. ;D
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Looking good. Do like that cream and tan livery... Is there any historical basis for that, or did you just make it up? (Which is what i always do, by the way lol)
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Tawny and Carsey sounds better than tan and cream. ;)
I have to be paraphrased, I struggle to use one word when ten or fifteen will do. :D
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Looking great. :)
Can we have a group shot of the whole ensemble at some point. I reckon it will be quite a picture ;D
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More fantastic looking stuff, can't wait to see them all together in one picture :D
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Great stuff Steve, good to have you back :)
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Very nice conversion work - the revised poses look great!!
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Excellent Steve! I shall definitely be pinching a couple of those poses. My favourite is the bareheaded guy. Caught the winding pse just right there :)
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Quality assembling Steve, you and Blood are a right couple of posers lol
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Very impressive work. Lots of inspiration for when I get around to making mine.
For info the deep slitted kettle hat is shown in contemporary sources being used by crossbowmen. I have tried a reproduction one in the past - it can be slid back further in the head if you need a clearer view.
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Looking good Steve 8)
cheers
James
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Great stuff - my only query would be the figure winching his crossbow in Group D. I think that he would need a foot in the stirrup to stop it bouncing around as he turns the handles?
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Some splendid configurations of figures there.
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Lovely stuff. 8)
I'm always a bit afraid to try and do this much chopping and remodelling with mine, but between you and the Captain, I feel like I'm letting the side down.
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Really like the decent use of greenstufff to improve the plastics: great work.
DV... :)
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The crossbowmen looking realy good !!! very god inspiration!
Best regards Michael
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I'm not planning to change the mini and so I am wondering it it is at all possible to use a windlass without foot in stirrup. Views, one and all? ???
If you drove it into the earth hard enough it might keep still, but either way, it's hardly going to change the price of fish. So I wouldn't worry about it. :)
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It is odd as their HYW crossbowmen have the foot firmly in the stirrup :o
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I would have thought a foot in the stirrup would be helpful (but not essential) for the windlass and even less necessary for the cranequin... but bracing it against the ground would work I suppose. I can think of other weapons where the 'right' way to do it wasn't the 'only' or 'quickest' way to do it though.
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Both Perry's were members of the White Company medieval reenactment group - the first one to do real research into the WotR period and try to portray it correctly.
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More fantastic stuff Steve, looking forward to seeing them painted :D
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Good poses Steve. All the better for being conversions :)
Who needs to buy metal pikemen when you can make your own that look as good as this? ;)
Particularly like the chap in the kettle-hat-mit-eye-slits. Great posture.
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BTW, my rules will allow pikes an advantage over weapons with a shorter reach, when closing to melee.
So, by the same reckoning, do shorter weapons then get an advantage when they get past the point - so to speak?
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I'm not entirely certain on this, but the medieval pike should be about 6cm long at 28mm... or around 10-12' (3m -ish) in real terms anyway. The longer ones didn't come into use until the 16th century arms race. 'Pike' is used retrospectively... they called them 'staves', 'spiess', 'geldon'... whatever, even Commynes describes 'piquets' and then describes what we would now call a 'long thrusting spear'...
It still gives you a reach of 8'+ mind... :)
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Looking fabulous Steve :)
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Looking terrific ;D
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I think these are my favourites so far, I can't expalin why, I just like them the most :D
Looking forward to seeing the village, funnily enough James and I were discussing your buildings last night. ( I blame him for everything ;)) lol
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Good stuff Steve. Some nice poses and characters there... The crossbowmen do look good (shame they're going to get twatted to hell by the speed and accuracy of the longbowmen :D).
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Don't hate me :'( lol
Looking good Steve :-*
cheers
James
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These fine fellows just need some pavises to hide behind and they'll be fine - trust me :o
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That is quite a nice collection. The blacksmith set up is very well done. :-*
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The houses are looking great and I really like the yards and the fencing.
I hate to say it, because it seems too late to change, but for me there are way too many 90° in the build ups. This is a minor flaw to me. It just does not look organic enough for a medival village. It looks to erm... roman.
But perhaps this can be changed by the final set up on the table...
Great work on the anvil and the smaller stuff... :)
DV
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All rather jolly nice. I likey ;D
I love all the extra little details especially the blacksmiths :-*
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Great start :)
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Thanks Nick & Stephen :D
As well as cabbages and fruit bushes there be chickens and carrots..... ;)
Aha! I have found the chickens, but I can't find the carrots ::) lol
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I hate to say it, because it seems too late to change, but for me there are way too many 90° in the build ups. This is a minor flaw to me. It just does not look organic enough for a medival village. It looks to erm... roman.
Many villages were divided into regular plots and there's only so many ways you can face a house and not waste land you were renting at a premium. Some fortunates might have multiple plots they rented, but again, houses either faced a road or were sideways on.
Now if we're talking how we imagine a medieval village to look.... :)
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Really like what you've done to enahance and vary the Perry kits. :)
Simon.
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Thanks all!
They are to the front of the biggest cottage and can be made out just to the right of its front door - they'll look more like carrot tops when painted....
Found them now :D
Wonderful stuff :)
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No Mill! You need to work on that :P
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Many villages were divided into regular plots and there's only so many ways you can face a house and not waste land you were renting at a premium. Some fortunates might have multiple plots they rented, but again, houses either faced a road or were sideways on.
Now if we're talking how we imagine a medieval village to look.... :)
A lot depended on whether it was a new or an established village. New villages, such as colonists in Wales, Ireland and parts of England, were often better organised and less organic.
Some were organised by having a plot that started at the road and the tenants then cleared back in a set strip for several hundred metres. This was also very common in 'German' villages in Eastern Europe.
Regards,
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Wonderful stuff. I'm very jealous. :-* 8)
I have such plans to build fortifications, encampments and villages that all come to nothing because I can't justify the time to build something I'm never going to use. I probably should actually start playing some games at some point... ;D
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Greate looking minis and it looks like there will be a very nice village to
Best regards Michael
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Thanks all :)
Each of the units is a stand-alone and on the table they'll be spread out with a less 'regular' attitude - so yard fences won't be pushed back-to-back, etc but will have a gap between. This is the linear village that I am using as my model, albeit somewhat compacted as they'll be fewer houses and no mill:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/imagebucket_2006/WotR/arrangement-of-manor-lands-and-a-farming-village-in-the-late-middle-ages.jpg)
Were did you get this pic from?
It looks pretty cool
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Some nice pics there!
I'd say you were right in that the linear layout of that village stayed constant throughout its existence. Many villages were changing though, enclosing of land and the evicting of tenants started to take off in the 15th Century, due to the wool trade and what were once villages were levelled and given over to pasture, with a family farmstead taking the place of a community.
Otherwise linear villages were largely the rule, either along one or more roads leading away from a central point. Plot merging was common, as after the Black Death tenants were able to put the squeeze on the landowners for more generous terms and rates due to the scarcity of labour. This was addressed to an extent as people were turfed out of villages (as above) and drifted off to scrub for a living elsewhere (hence the mix of multiple plots and single ones) and various other reasons.
Where the modern houses are marked on the one plan, is also likely to be the site of the original pre-medieval village, as the manor and church sites were usually at the centre. As buildings became unsuitable to live in, they'd build new ones at the edge of the settlement and let the old ones collapse (then 'rob' the main timbers). Archaeologists call this 'settlement drift'... as you get the village moving one way, then back again over time. There's a couple of villages I've been to where the original church is some distance from the modern village because of this. Where stone was used for building (Cotswolds, Peaks etc), it's not as common for obvious reasons.
There's a few sites devoted to deserted medieval villages (DMVs), which are great, as they show the village layout at the point they were abandoned. Wharram Percy in Yorkshire is about the best known and is an oddity as it had two manor house sites (I'm guessing they built a new manor house at some point, so as not to be surrounded by commoners).
http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/page57.html
http://www.diplomate.freeserve.co.uk/wharram.htm
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/daysout/properties/wharram-percy-deserted-medieval-village/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deserted_medieval_villages_in_England
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You're welcome, but I can't claim the idea as my own, I'm sure it was put forward by someone else. Nevertheless it does make sense as an explanation. The English Heritage site info has the right of it though I think.
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Lovely. Loving it all. The learned discourse, the links, pics, and of course buildings... :D
That said (much as I like your creations, Steve) I'm not 100% sold on the peasant-hut style of Medieval wargames architecture...
There are plenty of late medieval era Wealden style houses around where I live, dating (according to their plaques) from the 1400s or earlier, and they are large, impressive timbered and jettied buildings not thatched hovels... Not manor houses by the way, just big solid buildings...
Not saying the poorer folk didn't live in thatched hovels, just that medieval architecture wasn't universally low-tech.
Anyway, stop mucking around, and crack on with Stokesay Castle ;)
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Thanx for all the information... :)
Seems my imagination of a late medival english village being more organic was quite wrong.
So please go on with the 90°-thing... :D
The links are very cool, thanx for that too.
Cheers,
DV
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That said (much as I like your creations, Steve) I'm not 100% sold on the peasant-hut style of Medieval wargames architecture...
... Not saying the poorer folk didn't live in thatched hovels, just that medieval architecture wasn't universally low-tech.
Most certainly, it was very adaptable, almost like the 'kit houses' we see about today (if you count cutting a tree down and splitting it down the middle as almost like a kit) ... 15th Century man was little different to us. Get in somewhere/build somewhere. Add an extension or knock one down, they just didn't have UPVC conservatories and the like. You might have two or three generations sharing some houses, each requiring space. They were only limited by the width of their plot(s) and of course, wattle and daub is much easier to create a doorway in than brick and doesn't need an RSJ. As long as they didn't cut through the main beams forming the 'A' at either end, there were no limits.
If you look around some of these houses, you can see where slots were cut into the 'A' frame to accommodate add-ons (as well as interior partitions), which where later removed, while others remained and you can see how the building developed from its original structure. That aside the poorer quality dwellings (and there were quite a few), likely occupied by the village 'squatters', didn't survive, so the ones you see today aren't representative of the whole.
For wargames however, what do you do?
A typical long-house itself might be 50' x 15' in reality, which would be 10" x 3.5" (ish) on the table. Their 'allotment' of land for the plot the building stood on, might typically be an acre; 12' x 1.2' on the table (66' x 660'). The inhabitants of these were the 'Yeomen' or 'Freemen' ... the people who were required to practice with a bow, i.e. Mr Average. Some of these folk had multiple plots, as we've mentioned in other posts here (to the point that income-wise they may have joined those expected to turn-up as a 'man at arms' in some cases). They also had several field strips in the surrounding fields too.
As a comparison, the meanest squatter's hovel might be 15' x 15' (about 3.5" square on the table), with a very small parcel of land with it in comparison. These were the day labourers, squatters, underclass, or whatever you choose to call them, who existed on the land 'held in common' (on sufferance), that marked as 'waste', or right by the mill, where nobody else wanted to live, as you can see on the plan Silent Invader supplied us with. They might sub-rent a field strip off one of the more better off villagers, but largely they worked other people's land for wages.
The point I've failed to make (again) in ten words or less, is that if we are working to 'real scale', then we would struggle to put more than a couple of buildings and their footprints on the table, so generic peasants hovels with much reduced land allowances have become the common way of representing a village.
Seems my imagination of a late medival english village being more organic was quite wrong.
A much more appealing place to live in though... and many of them do in fact look like that now in places. :)
EDIT:
lol @Silent Invader's "Four Yorkshiremen Essexmen" skit.
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I have such plans to build fortifications, encampments and villages that all come to nothing because I can't justify the time to build something I'm never going to use. I probably should actually start playing some games at some point... ;D
This must be a cumbrian thing, except I do start building stuff and often don't finish ;)
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My little empire is located in back-water south-east Essex with land that doesn't favour wealth-generating sheep farming nor the growing of luscious fruit or beery hops for the London markets. It's flat and dry so cereals are our thing meaning we break our backs as we toil to break the earth......
lol
Oh alright, I'll leave you to your Essex mud huts and stick to my Surrey hall houses ;)
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Looking forward to seeing residents - not sure how the Essex ladies heels will deal with all that mud though..
lol
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Try Perry pilgrims for your peasants. Okay they are a small matter of 400 years out, but there's certainly some stuff you can work with. Yeoman's wives might be a gadget tougher...
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Sorry, it's probably obvious, but I should have said, First Crusade range :)
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I don't know how they'll compare size-wise, but the obvious contenders for village folk are;
Pro Gloria Miniatures (http://progloriaminiatures.blogspot.co.uk/) - Obviously don't buy the 'Lansknecht' types, but from comparison shots provided, they should be a close match with the Perry figures.
Lead Adventure Miniatures (http://www.lead-adventure.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=4155a88eb9220c2d356351b57fe5c694) - The Bruegelburg range has some excellent medieval types amongst its members.
Reaper Miniatures (http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/villagers/latest/10029) have these and some others dotted through their range. I've heard that some of these are 'heroic' in proportions, but somebody here will chip in on that surely?
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What about some of the original Wargames Foundry Medieval peasants?
I purchased a few recently for my Robin Hood project and whilst they are slightly shorter than todays larger 28s they blend in ok.
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What about some of the original Wargames Foundry Medieval peasants?
I purchased a few recently for my Robin Hood project and whilst they are slightly shorter than todays larger 28s they blend in ok.
Fantastic work so far SI! Looking really good.
I always think that for civilians it doesn't really matter. Slighty smaller/shorter civilians models tend to be quite good in my opinion, they don't over look the character models and tend to remain in the background. Lets face it for most games civilians are pretty much just scenic.
Cheers
Andy
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Great discussion going here, following the comments (well, most of them lol ) with keen eye.
Keep it coming Steve, keep it coming :)
cheers
James
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I really love those minis! What are the thatched roofs made of?
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After that, a game
Huzzah!
cheers
James
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A lot of castles were plastered so I don't see why not :)
cheers
James
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Glad to see/hear you are back in the saddle. :D
NO idea as to the answer to your question though so my gut instinct is ... paint it natural, it might look a bit odd with a lime wash. ???
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Hi SI,
Ah, Limewashing church buildings ;D
Limewashing of churches was not uncommon in the medieval period, however by the 18th/19th century most had fallen off or had been removed.
The coating of the stonework could be one of three process (or a combination of them); to apply a limewash would be simply that. An application of limewash to the stonework. If the stonework was fairly rough or poor quality, a lime slurry (a thick limewash) could be applied to help fill gaps and prevent moisture ingress between the stones, or the third option for poor or undulating stonework would be to lime render to produce an even surface and then apply a limewash.
Coloured limewashes could also be applied. I have seen modern pink and ochre limewash applied to historic buildings. I suspect flint buildings (a bit out of my area) could have been lmewashed to reduce the washing out of the soft lime mortar from between the flint walling stone.
St leonards church in St leonards, Bucks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leonards,_Buckinghamshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leonards,_Buckinghamshire)) has recently been lime rendered and lime washed, although I think the underlying structure is mostly "clunch" stone, which is not particularly weather resistant. Drayton Beauchamp Church, also in Bucks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drayton_Beauchamp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drayton_Beauchamp)) is not rendered, but has limestone blocks in the flint walling to help tie the wall construction together.
Although modern, the limerender applied to the tower of The Leigh church in Gloucestershire
(http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/05/91/st-catherines-church-the-leigh-57675.jpg)
has been lined out to represent dressed stonework; the stone in this area being mostly small section blue lias. The scheme appears to be similar seen inside medieval churches elsewhere
I think I have probably introduced more problems than resolution, here o_o
RMZ
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Go on. Do a pink church. You know you want to :D
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Managed to miss this thread until today. The mention of limewashing always grabs my attention, so much so that I forgot to say what a cool thread it is.
The figures look great and the buildings are coming together well. I really enjoy your level of research, too. Thanks for posting links with them.
RMZ
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It was common practice so some would have a coat of Limewash (sometimes decorated!) and some not. The worlds your oyster really.... go for a nice Pink!. After all, Cap'n Blood has ordered you to ;) lol.
Darrell.
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Is this going to be the church of Hello kitty? :D
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I can only back up what has been said, lime washing of stone was very common; the frequency of places called 'Whitchurch' being a testament to this. If there was a high proportion of iron in the area the lime was taken from, a tan, buff, or almost orange colour was common and 'white' lime would need to be imported at cost to those desiring it. Pigments were also often added; Ox or Pig's blood, or sloe juice, was added to the mix, producing 'Suffolk Pink' in Anglia, so a pink church in Essex is potentially accurate... maybe.
;)
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Great stuff mate, like 'em a lot 8)
Darrell.
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They look lovely!
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Excellent! Troops 'raised' in Flanders, rather than the usual 'Burgundian Ordonnance moonlighting' we tend to see. I fully approve! ;)
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Really nice work!
Really impressive as a unit.
:-*
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Lovely.
I am going to kill them all, you do know that? ;)
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Nicely done :)
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Great stuff Steve :-* I really like the banner 8)
so a pink church in Essex is potentially accurate... maybe.
;)
Add a bit of bling and you're there :D
cheers
James
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Excellent stuff. :)
Looking forward to seeing them rout Captain Blood's men ;) :)
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Mwuhahahahaha...
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Lovely stuff SI!!! Can't wait for the battle :)
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Lovely stuff SI!!! Can't wait for the battle :)
Mr Blood can (it's all an act you know ;) ).
cheers
James
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Mr Blood can (it's all an act you know ;) ).
cheers
James
lol
So true. lol
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Terrific looking unit!
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Good-oh! :D
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:o :o :o
Bloody hell!
That is one amazing job you have done on that village.
All the nice little added touches have really paid off.
Also the colours that you chosen work really well and bring everything together perfectly.
A great pallette.
Absolutely cracking work!
:-* :-* :-*
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That looks absolutely fantastic! Would love to play on a board like that.
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Blinking nice Steve. So we are christening it next week at Matakishi's tea party, yes? :)
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Shiny shiny :-*
I like the flint effect you have on the church.
cheers
James
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Wow. That is just an absolutely wonderful village! Well done! :-*
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Most excellent! I would be proud to fight on that table any day of the week.
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Looks fantastic. Very convincing and the fur fabric on the roofs really works well.
Simon.
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What rules set are you using for this WOTR skirmish..?? ???
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That's brilliant Steve :-*
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What a smart looking layout! Well done! :D
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That's really rather splendid, can't wait to see it next week ;D
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Well my setup looks awfully inadequate now. lol
That village is a thing of beauty.
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Impressive and love the little details :D
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Wow, that's really something quite special, :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Good poses, though the first three tails could be lifted up a tad :)
Straight spears sounds sensible to me
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Very nice assortment of horse poses Steve :)
Yes, I mainly used straight plastic spears rather than tourney-style lances with my scurrers. In fact, I used Warlord ECW pikes which proved rather good :)
Looking forward to seeing these. And to a clash of cavalry :D
(Twelve horses is a lot of painting though!)
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Looking good I particularly like the herald, great paint job. :)
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Lovely looking conversions and the nags look great to me.
Simon.
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Another vote for spears instead of lances here.
Richard II banned the 'lancegay' (or lancegaie, which may or may not be derived from 'assegai' or 'azagaia') as folk were buying them instead of proper lances... which implies they were probably cheaper and/or lighter (but less effective perhaps).
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Great thread, love the retinues
really love the village
dodge
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Nice looking mounts, I see that even with new Perry sculpts and moulds that casting still appears to be an issue with their stuff, looked that way when I looked at them at Partizan, must admit it is putting me off getting any of the Italian stuff. :(
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I agree, Phil. My recent experiences with 70 or so ECW foot reinforces the view as many had flash & excessive amounts of vent runs. Also hands were poorly defined and details like powder flask cords and apostle cords were often ill defined or missing. Perhaps having no one to answer to but themselves, and believing the fan-boy hype has lead to a drop in the standards of the finished metal product? Or perhaps it's that the move to plastic has lead to a disregard for customers who want metals? Either way, they really should address the issue.
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As someone who is thinking about re starting a Napoleonics collection or getting into WotR with Perry Figures, this is quite off putting.
Are the casting and molding issues a problem with 100% of their metal figures?
What are they thinking of?!
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It's a longstanding issue which I don't think the Perrys can fail to be aware of. The quality of their metal casting (or whoever they use to do it) has, of late, earned a widespread and unhappy reputation for being downright poor.
It's not helped by the sculpting of some of the metal figures which look great from a few feet away (which, to be fair, is how they're intended to be viewed), but have a distinctly 'dashed off' look close up.
And yes - they inevitably do suffer by comparison with the Perry plastics which are (mostly) exquisitely detailed and crisply moulded by comparison...
I'm painting a mixed batch of WOTR metals and plastics right now, and have been thinking to myself all afternoon that the difference between the two is really very marked :(
And I'm a fanboy ::)
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And I'm a fanboy ::)
lol Knew it ;D
cheers
James
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On the plus side it is entirely possible to build a substantive force from just the plastics
I'm assuming that you can build artillery crew from the plastics as well?
cheers
James
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Damn it! There's another reason to start buying boxes ::) lol
cheers
James
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Damn it! There's another reason to start buying boxes ::) lol
cheers
James
Noooooooooooooooooooooo! lol
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Noooooooooooooooooooooo! lol
Don't worry, not yet lol
cheers
James
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Was thinking of doing something like this but with Warlords ECW plastics...
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Sad to hear about the poor casting of Perry metals.
Is there any pattern to this? For instance, the ECW casts are older at this point. Are the newer ones - say the WotR casts - a little crisper?
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It all looks great :-*
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:o :o :o. o_o
Good luck Steve!
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Looking good, but you certainly seem to have your hands full!
:o
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Some really nice conversion work - love the new variants for the scurrors and guards - looking forward to the painting stage.
Simon.
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I share the opinion that the Perry Plastics can be a lot better than the metal figures. Bought a few more boxes at Colours to add some different commander stands to my ACOP based armies. Unfortunately, they'd had a "run" on the metal figures before I got there on the Sunday, so I've got plenty of standard bearers and musicians but no personalities yet.
Glad to see someone else has got even more WOTR figures to paint than me!
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You are now a plastic Pontiff, excellent building and sticking 8)
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Just caught up with this thread after an hiatus of a good few weeks
Admirable and inspiring stuff Steve - I hadn't seen that village previously apart from in the game thread but I reckon you should take a bow....
As in bend not arrow lol
Well done
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Blimey, that's alot to paint before BLAM. :o Looking forward to seeing them. :)
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Very good work indeed.
It is a lot to paint though, good luck
dodge
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Excellent Steve, great colour schemes, made up or pukka? 8)
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Great stuff Steve, Looking forward to the next big scrum down between Essex and Surrey.
I might even ask to join one of the sides for the day. Not sure which way my allegiance lies yet though ;)
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Another impressive pair of war bands.
[quote author=Silent Invader link=topic=36158.msg554940#msg554940 date=1352338624
Goods news is, I now have another two finished units, making 5 completed comprising 116 minis so far (not even half way there! :o).
[/quote]
I was about to say that you had lots of minis, having 116 and only half way there, but a quick count up told me i had almost 200 minis myself, which less than half are painted.
Collecting WOTR ---> A spiral of maddness that never ends ;D
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Another lovely pair (of warbands!).
That is a seriously large army that you are putting together.
Only halfway too!
I am seriously impressed.
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Really impressive stuff! :)
Does one have whipped cream with Essex Strumpets? ;)
I might even ask to join one of the sides for the day.
Hmmm, i'm not sure that it'd work: you're a bit too tall. Just a bit.
:o lol lol
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This is a fantastic thread :-*
I must confess I don't look at yours and Captain Blood's Medieval stuff, as I've been trying to avoid being drawn back into painting WOR stuff after a long time away from it, and you guys don't make it any easier. lol
www.gallopingmajorwargames.com
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Hmmm, i'm not sure that it'd work: you're a bit too tall. Just a bit.
lol. Sorry feeling really bad now. Started typing something about Essex having better strumpets then couldn't help myself......
Its ok Richard suggested I was only 15mm over the weekend, so actually may appear a little small on the battlefield :'(.... lol
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Great figures Steve - lovely conversions / builds, and as you know, I think your painting (for some peculiar reason) always looks a lot better in the flesh than it sometimes looks from your photos. And I mean that with love :)
(Mine is the opposite of course - they always look tip-top in photos, but slightly less super-duper in the flesh. Or plastic ;))
Anyway, looking forward to what you do next. Let's organise another game soon. I suppose we could let Malamute play... ::) ;)
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SI,
You are way too modest! I have watched your improvement and Bruddah you do some good stuff these days!
LB
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The game at BLAM was inspiring stuff so I have put an order off to Perrys. The Duke of Norfolk shall lead his men on the field of battle! :D
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The game at BLAM was inspiring stuff so I have put an order off to Perrys. The Duke of Norfolk shall lead his men on the field of battle! :D
Huzzah! :D
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Huzzah! :D
The Duke of Norfolk is a Yorkist! ;D :D
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This site is the best thing that could have happened for the Perry brothers. Thanks to Blood and Invader, they must have got loads of new buyers.
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Hopefully it will encourage them to keep churning them out... I've asked for a box of lighter cavalry/mtd archers etc in plastic, but if anyone would like to request them too, I'm sure it would be rewarded down the line.
;)
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Wasn't that supposed to be ready for BLAM ??? ??? ???
Its looking pretty damn good though, can't wait to rob it ;)
;D
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Hmmmm, yes....... BLAM was mentioned.......
But not which year ;)
cheers
James
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And two fingers to Nick! :D
Soooo Essex. ;) lol
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I like your scratchbuilt wagon.
Where did you get the wheels and the horse?
Mick
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Looking really good, can't wait to see it with some paints on it. ;D
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That's great as usual! Really nice shape you achieved. :)
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Nice bit of scratchbuilding :)
Where did you find the pic of the 15thC ladies hunting carriage ? I´ve been looking for something like that for ages.
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No problems...I´ve found it :)
http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1916-2512
illustration from Ovid's Epistles (vellum)
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!!!! it´s even available as a jigsaw!!!
http://www.amazon.com/Photo-Jigsaw-Puzzle-Medieval-hunting/dp/B0081UE7WI
and on a mug....
http://www.zazzle.de/eine_jagd_illustration_von_ovids_episteln_tasse-168040807840502075
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New thread for me some lovely miniatures very nicely painted .........and some of the banter is quite amusing to lol
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Warning, you have a possible copier in the crowd ;)
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Well done!
I definitely took the image from a 'proper' reference and not the side of a mug! lol
lol lol lol :)
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I might "need" to make a medieval carriage pulled by Fireforge horses in red bardings for my Burgundian army.
;)
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Not much wrong with those Steve. :)
Perhaps as a minor addition some blazes, fetlocks, socks etc to give the horses some individuality, but overall excellent. :)
I have been putting off painting my mounted knights for Robin Hood, because I hate doing horses. ::)
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Ooooooh well. I like them 8)
Well done Steve.
A willingness to tackle cavalry separates the men from the boys ;)
Look forward to shredding them with my huge artillery park lol
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Nice one,
very well done, I probably wouldn't worry about the fetlocks and blazes now they are finished but perhaps try that next time out.
I really like the colour scheme and the poses look very lifelike.
more!
dodge
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Nice conversions and paint jobs
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I like your horse colours mate 8)
I put some paint on my first chap the other day... Only several hundred to go then lol
cheers
James
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I like your horse colours mate 8)
I put some paint on my first chap the other day... Only several hundred to go then lol
cheers
James
Shall I take him to the game in a couple of weeks on your behalf to represent the Cumbrian faction ;) lol
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These look great - might have to start thinking about this as the next project....
I did medieval in 10mm so 28mm might be fun as well...
Giles
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They look great.
Reminds me that I've still got to have a go with the box of Perry Plastic knights I bought at Colours last year. If I'm back in guildford again next week, I'll have to stick them in with a knife, glue etc and try assembling them at least to counter the boredom of 4 nights a week in the hotel. :)
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We can put him with the sheep! :D
lol
I won't make the obvious comment ;)
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lol
I won't make the obvious comment ;)
No, you better not 'cos I know where you live and Flossie and her friends can be round in little less than half an hour lol
cheers
James
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Oooh!
Nice work.
I like these chaps.
A lot!
:-*
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I like them too, really nice conversions there!