Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Operator5 on October 02, 2006, 03:52:36 PM
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I just picked up some books for research (a Conan collection and some John Carter: Warlord of Mars) and it got me thinking about what type of fantasy people prefer.
Now, I have read quite a bit, though not much of the newer stuff. I've read Tolkien every other year for the past 20 years. I've read, Leiber and Moorcock. I've read the light stuff by Piers Anthony and more dense material as well.
But I have found that the fantasy that I come back to is that of Conan and Leiber. No elves and dwarves running around in a world of good and evil. Lots of human races, some degenerate, animalistic races, and lots of demons and monstrous creatures. Magic is more powerful but requires more than a wave of the hand and some fancy words to make it happen.
So, if I were gaming the genre, I would want my game to be the same way. What is everyone else's take on it?
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I like both approaches...
Tolkien is the king for me... but his style of fantasy (several races in the same world) has been ab-used to the limit... I frankly reject Warhammer, Dragonlance, Dungeons & Dragons and all those Tolkien-clones except for a holiday light-read.
Said that, I prefer the Heroic fantasy approach... I really like the way in which Howard mixed real story and mythos with the Lovecraft mythos in a coherent universe.
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Mexican magical realism. Like this. (http://www.achewood.com) 8)
Seriously, though, I like Conan because REH had a dungeon master's ability to spin exciting locations, and to come up with new stuff each week. I really think Tolkien is the king of the genre, but everyone's comments on that vein having been mined are pretty much exactly on.
I'd like to see a "gaslamp fantasy" a la Girl Genius (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com), but I don't see that easy to be a solid game without lapsing into the sins that plague syncretic fantasy settings.[/url]
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But I have found that the fantasy that I come back to is that of Conan and Leiber. No elves and dwarves running around in a world of good and evil. Lots of human races, some degenerate, animalistic races, and lots of demons and monstrous creatures. Magic is more powerful but requires more than a wave of the hand and some fancy words to make it happen.
that's exactly the sort of fantasy I like. The almost real world but with a touch of mystery, magic and some(not too much) monsters.
Conan's world is just the best example. I would wish, you would take this world for your coming fanatsy game, maybe some adaptions but not more, it's good enough :)
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If Tolkien is the king of fantasy, I'll immediately join the rebellion forces to kick him off his throne! His books are the most boring stuff I've ever read. I like the original dragonlance trilogy by Weis/Hickman the most. After that dark fantasy stuff, like the Witchhunter books from GW, the Diablo novels (by R.A. Knaak), Kane by K.E. Wagner or anything like that. Conan is cool, but the stories are all the same. He kills the bad guys and gets the chick. But the world is very cool, though!
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If Tolkien is the king of fantasy, I'll immediately join the rebellion forces to kick him off his throne! His books are the most boring stuff I've ever read. I like the original dragonlance trilogy by Weis/Hickman the most. After that dark fantasy stuff, like the Witchhunter books from GW, the Diablo novels (by R.A. Knaak), Kane by K.E. Wagner or anything like that. Conan is cool, but the stories are all the same. He kills the bad guys and gets the chick. But the world is very cool, though!
The above illustrates the beauty of variation and choice. I disagree with all of it of course but then I'm picky and expect some level of craft from the writers whos work I buy :)
Copying Tolkien is never done right because the authors who try completely miss the point and don't have the skill to pull it off. I avoid everything that resembles a Tolkien rip off whether it's books, films or games.
REH is good, Conan, Bran, Kull etc. are all good.
Burroughs is very formulaic and whereas I enjoyed him once I find the Mars books hard going these days. Tarzan is the same. I like the Mars setting though.
Moorcock is fantastic. Elric, Corum, and the rest of the eternal Champions are better than anything else for ideas, plot and pacing. His later work is not as good I feel, he has let himself wander into pretentiousness. Anything after the dancers at the End of time I tend to ignore.
Leiber is good but limited.
Gene wolf writes fantasy disguised as science fiction but is one of the greatest living writers and all his stuff is good. Book of the New Sun is a true masterpiece.
Lord Dunsany is one of my favourites, capturing the whimsical nature of his stories in a game would be a challenge indeed.
Jack Vance is a genius. Everything he writes is original and surprising. I have a new Vance to read at the moment so I'm happy :)
There are other writers who have individual works that are good but the above are the originators of the ideas that others, particularly those mentioned by knoxville, regurgitate and turn into cliches.
So, anything along the lines of any of the above I would at least try. Another volume of 'doorstop fantasy', book seventeen in the Boring as Shite tridecalology for instance, gets nary a glance.
I don't like fantasy wargames because they're all marketed at the lowest common denominator and do a bad Tolkien. I play the Ars Magica RPG and I've had fun with Everway and Stormbringer in the past.
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I am a big fan of stereotype fantasy (include Tolkin) where dwarf´s are solitary person´s ,elfs are like Legolas and babarian´s more like conan .
ok that might, be boring but Ilike that easy stuff :oops:
Grimm
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I never finished reading any Tolkien story. It just becomes too boring. Although I like the imagery of Middle-earth and all the artwork basing on it very much.
I also like all this rogh fantasy suff you can find in old D&D, like the Monster Manual and other books, but I never read a story basing on D&D and I doubt I ever will.
Recently I started reading Conan and I love that stuff because all his adventures are really adventurous, unbelievalbe coincidences and dangerous actions.
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I prefer Hyboria and Barsoom style fantasy. I've never read Leiber but I may have to pick some up and give it a try.
Middle Earth is Fine but its been covered and copied over and over and over.
Chuck
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Tolkien is top of 'em all, but I really like Moorcock, even read R.E. Howard several years ago. My favorite Hack&Slay-Author is Karl Edward Wagner (RIP). Lately I prefer epic fantasy like early Robert Jordan, George R.R. Martin and Steen Erikson.
Same with SF, Asimov & Heinlein are cool stuff even today, but I like every Subgenre if it's well-written and has a good story.
Weird stuff like Jack Vance is another favourite of mine.
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If Tolkien is the king of fantasy, I'll immediately join the rebellion forces to kick him off his throne! His books are the most boring stuff I've ever read. ....
:lol: I thought I'd be the only who who found LOTR boring. Well I find fantasy on a general a bit boring. Isn't Conan middle ages for people too lazy to read about history? I don't mind to add some mystics for spice though.
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Hi,
Lord Of The Rings is boring. The GW Game is better than the books. The movie was crap in my eyes.
I also come always back to Conan. He is not my idol or such but he and Howards other heroes help me to drift away much easier than others authors ever could. They start my imagination and help me dreaming and its much much more than always getting the chick when the evil guy is dead.
I also like to read Karl Edward Wagner. His story Mirage is my all time favourite Sword and Sorcery Story. I think, but ask me again tomorrow....
Greetings
Björn
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So, if I were gaming the genre, I would want my game to be the same way. What is everyone else's take on it?
Although I really love authors like Moorcock and G.R.R. Martin I would prefer a Tolkien setting when gaming the fantasy genre (I was always tempted by those great Vendel (http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/) fantasy minis - way better than those GW-LotR ones IMHO). Greg Stafford's Glorantha would be a fantasy setting I would even prefer over Middle-Earth - tons of great background material and you have broos, morocanths and ducks! And with the relaunch of RuneQuest by Mongoose there is quite a chance of a new Glorantha-'hype' coming....
Gruß, Hagen
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I do tend to like darker fantasy...the less magic the better. Conan is a great example. Some of those GW Black Library books are not as bad as I thought they'd be. Actually, the Dwarfslayer series is about the best they have to offer, and its very fun reading.
I do like Tolkien's idea of magic as it was much more subtle, and not so much readily apparent as it was in the Dungeons and Dragons inspired crap.
My wife reads alot of fantasy, but they tend to be the more popular 'unicorn' type that reads more like a soap opera than a gritty dark world. She can keep them...
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Edgar Rice Burroughs with his John Carter series first got me interested in Fantasy. The plots were a bit thin, but as a kid I found his tales of Mars gripping!
Fritz Leiber for no-nonsense sword and sorcery. A little elimited in scope , but a good fun read!
Tolkien is not really my thing. I prefer the films to the books. His books did however inspire Role Playing games and "Non-historical" wargames.
I personally like Moorcock with his anti-heroes, dark sorcery, Demons, alternate universes ( Multi-verses) and his ability to turn the whole Fantasy Genre on it's head!
Elric Rocks!!!!
PM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Terry Pratchett and his Discworld yet. I'm not a gamer but I would love to see some of his characters as miniatures. The books are funny and clever.
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As a gamer, I prefer to treat the different sub-genres of fantasy according to their own specific forms. I don't like to see the mix of Tolkienesque elves and dwarves with Pulpy barbarians and bikini'd vixens with Vikings with samurai. That was one of the things I disliked about D&D when it came out - it was such a mish-mash of unrelated stuff!
I wargame several distinct styles of fantasy, with occasional overlaps:
Norse Myth, with dwarves, giants and trolls, and a grim, fatalistic background based on the sagas.
Celtic Myth, which is far more extravagant in its magic and in the amazing powers of heroes.
'Chainmail Bikini', my take on cheesy Pulp barbarian fantasy, played for laughs as well as thrills. I plan on developing this into a full fledged game - it's basically Astounding tales sword and sorcery.
A children's fantasy game I call 'Fee Fi Fo Fum', which is pretty light and simple, with a lot of making things up as we go.
Some LOTR based stuff.
Hordes of the Things, using fairly standard Elves, Dwarves etc.
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Being the S&F nutter I am, most fantasy has a hard time with me. There are some themes and topics, however, which I actually like.
1. Tolkien, of course - I even read the Silmarillion THRICE, and enjoyed it everytime. However, I can´t stand "The Hobbit".
2. Fantasy Parodies, like "Korgoth of Barbaria".
3. The first Conan movie, while incredibly stupid, I can actually watch. Once in a decade or so. Never read any of the "books", though.
4. All Sindbad stuff EXCEPT for that awful TV series from the late 90s (IIRC). I just love those Sindbad films from the 50s to 70s, when Harryhausen and his ilk did the monsters.
Most other fantasy, especially the american "chick-in-chainmail/D&D"-variant, just makes we want to hurl, and even if it´s only due to the total stupidity of their monetary systems (can´t believe what they think the value of a gold piece should be!).
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I find myself rereading Tolkien more often than Howard from whom i´ve only read Conans novels.
I´ll like to have a look on REH "Valley of the White Worm" as Corben´s comic adaptation "Bloodstar" is so cool.
The first Conan movie, while incredibly stupid, I can actually watch. Once in a decade or so. Never read any of the "books", though.
Hey! i love that film! never get tired of watching it and i have a laugh every time my uncle pops up in scene wearing a fur diaper (he was one of the extras in the "village attack scene").
Also nobody mentioned Poul Anderson novels i really like his saga-like "Hrolf Kraki" and "The broken sword"
(http://dreamers.com/manuscritos/imagenes/resenas/laespadarota.JPG)
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I used to read a lot of fantasy, but most of the recent stuff is really rather poor - the names are not all that original, there is too much time-travel garbage and that sort of thing. I always look for a map and if the names are not that interesting or original I don't bother with the book.
My favourite fantasy authors are Moorcock, Tolkien, Burroughs, Carter, Vance and Howard - and probably a few others whose names ellude me at the moment.
For fantasy settings, I find Middle Earth a little bland. I love Glorantha (ie. the RuneQuest/HeroQuest setting) and Tekumel (aka The Empire of the Petal Throne). The latter has a very rich background that doesn't get the attention it deserves - IMHO.
Howard
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(can´t believe what they think the value of a gold piece should be!).
well, it has the size of a fünfmarkstück (5 Deutschmark coin), so ... :lol:
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What everyone else said (except for the people who don't like Tolkien :wink: ).
The one thing I'd like to add is the stuff that got me into the whole swords'n sorcery thing: the Arthurian legend cycle. My first exposure to it were my dad's Prince Valiant comics way back when, my favourites in that field would be Steinbeck and, of course, T.H. White.
Not strictly fantasy in the D&D or Tolkien vein, but something that keeps screaming "Translate me to the table top!" at me. I still don't know how to appropriately model all the chivalrous, romantic etc. motivations without writing something akin to Chaosium's 'Pendragon' game, though.
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(can´t believe what they think the value of a gold piece should be!).
well, it has the size of a fünfmarkstück (5 Deutschmark coin), so ... :lol:
*grins* To quote John Maddox Roberts (from memory, so the details may be off):
"There was a sign affixed to the wall, that gave the name of the concubine and beneath: Gallic: 2 assi, Greek: 4 assi, Phoenician: 2 sestertii. I don´t know what "Phoenician" was, but it must involve quite some acrobatics, because two sestertii are quite a lot of money to pay for a girl from this part of town."
:D
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I've been reading a fair bit of 'classic era' sword and sorcery lately; mighty thew'd barbarians and snotty princesses with their evil guardians. No elves, no dwarves, certainly no orcs. A lot of degenerate races - apparently we all run the risk of going from steely-eyed to decadent to ape-like in about a month if we aren't careful.
It's cheesy as all hell, and I love it!
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... - apparently we all run the risk of going from steely-eyed to decadent to ape-like in about a month if we aren't careful.
It's cheesy as all hell, and I love it!
Some of us are already there. :lol:
And I've been reading a bit of that too lately.
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Yeah, first of all you conquer an empire by your own mighty deeds. Then you are lying on a divan with slave girls feeding you grapes. Shortly after that, you are trying to figure out how to make a wheel and avoid the sabre-toothed cats eating you.
It's a tough world out there.
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The nubile, willful yet willing young Queen is feeding you grapes. The nekkid slave girls are peeling said grapes...
Sounds okay to me.
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Oh, it sounds fine, but just you wait.
Howard (REH, not myself) is pretty clear that the evolution and devolution of societies is a roller-coaster ride. It may be that you will find yourself having a long and fruitful life among the plumped-up pillows and peeled grapes. You could beget dozens of children on your harem, and even have some of them appear fully human. But, maybe not.
Let me know how it goes for you. If we don't hear, I'll assume you no longer remember how to type. H
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The nubile, willful yet willing young Queen is feeding you grapes. The nekkid slave girls are peeling said grapes...
Sounds okay to me.
(http://www.playnetix.de/forum/Smileys/default/winky.gif)