Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: mysteriousbill on September 09, 2012, 08:07:34 PM
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Having finally picked up a copy of VBCW, I thought I'd try my hand at an American Version.
A VERY AMERICAN CIVIL WAR
FEBRUARY 15, 1933
PRESIDENT-ELECT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT CRITICALLY WOUNDED BY ASSASSIN
MARCH 4, 1933
ROOSEVELT STILL IN A COMA
WHO IS THE PRESIDENT?
MARCH 8, 1933
HEBERT HOOVER RESIGNS AS PRESIDENT, CITES THE ENDING OF HIS TERM AS REASON
MARCH 10, 1933
VICE-PRESIDENT CHARLES CURTIS SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT
QUOTE "THIS COUNTRY MUST HAVE A PRESIDENT TO COMBAT AN ANARCHIST AND COMMUNIST COUP"
MARCH 11, 1933
PRESIDENT CURTIS APPOINTS GENERAL DOUGLAS MACARTHUR AS SUPREME HEAD OF ALL THE UNITED STATES MILITARY
MARCH 12, 1933
VICE-PRESIDENT ELECT CATCUS JACK GARNER SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT IN SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS
MARCH 15, 1933
PRESIDENT-ELECT ROOSEVELT BRIEFLY AWAKENS IN NEW YORK CITY AND IS SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT
MARCH 20, 1933
ROOSEVELT SLIPS BACK INTO COMA, ROOSEVELT ADVISORS MEET WITH NAVY ADMIRALS
MARCH 26
NAVY BACKS ROOSEVELT AS LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT, NATION IN TURMOIL
APRIL 1, 1933
AMERICAN ARMY TROOPS BATTLE US MARINES FOR CONTROL OF WHITE HOUSE
CONGRESS FLEES WASHINGTON
MARINE MAJOR GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER CLAIMS THAT A GROUP OF BUSINESSMEN APPROACHED HIM BEFORE THE ELECTION TO LEAD A COUP AFTER THE ELECTION
IS THE COUNTRY IN A CIVIL WAR?
THE REAL WORLD
On February 15th, 1933 Giuseppe Zangara attempted assassinate FDR. He instead fatally wounded Chicago Mayor Anton Cermak. If he had shot FDR (especially if he had badly wounded him) there would have been a constitutional crisis. The U.S. Constitution did not cover what to do when a President, let alone a President-Elect, was unable to perform the duties of the office, but wasn't dead (that change did not happen until the 25th Amendment in 1967).
In 1933 the President wasn't sworn in until March 4th.
FDR had been Assistant Secretary of the Navy from 1913-1920 and was well thought of by the Navy during his period in office (FDR was a died in the wool Navy buff and collected many items of US Navy memorabilia such as 2 log books from the USS Constituion from 1815). While Assistant Secretary he was supported having a bigger navy.
In 1934, Major General Smedley Butler became involved in a controversy known as the Business Plot, when he told a congressional committee that a group of wealthy industrialists were planning a military coup to overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt. The purported plotters wanted Butler to lead a mass of armed veterans in a march on Washington and then become a dictator.
The Head of the Supreme Court does not have to be the person who swears in the president. It doesn't even have to be a Judge. In 1923, President Coolidge was sworn in as President of the United States, by his father a Notary Public.
The competition between the Navy and Army for funds and priority is well known. There wasn't a joint chief of staff for the entire United States Military until 1942 (there had been a Joint Board since the Civil War but it had little legal authority).
As far as the actions of Vice-Presidents Curtis and Garner, that's just fiction (I've got to have somebody causing problems, though Garner once said that being vice-president wasn't worth a "Bucket of Warm Piss").
Yes, I am not a big fan of MacArthur, so expect him and probably Henry Ford to me the chief bad guys in this little exercise.
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Looks good. Interesting in how MacArthur turns up on everyone's bad guy list.
You might check out the http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/acw2/ (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/acw2/)ACW2 yahoo group as well searching acw2 here - there have been plenty of inpirational threads.
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Looks good. Interesting in how MacArthur turns up on everyone's bad guy list.
You might check out the http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/acw2/ (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/acw2/)ACW2 yahoo group as well searching acw2 here - there have been plenty of inpirational threads.
Yep give it a look. Maybe we can put some life back into this project.
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Its a start for me. I'll be centering my campaign in Illinois, but I will do a few "history" lessons on the rest of the country.
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Looks good.
Also worth checking out "War Plan Red" - the US plan to attack Canada (including gas-bombing Nova Scotia), and possibly British Caribbean bases.
The plan was devised in the 1920s, revised a few times, and finalised/approved in 1930. In 1935 the USAAF started building military airfields near the Canadian border to make invasion easier.
The USN had less aircraft carriers than the RN in the 1920s, and early US carriers had unarmoured decks compared to RN ones.
I have some documentation on the plan somewhere.
(Along with the other plans, Orange, Black, Green etc)
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Macarthur, and Patton, featured prominently in the Bonus Army actions in 1932 that may have helped FDR get the landslide election win.
Butler was also involved, but not as violently as Macarthur and Patton.
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Plan Red is a bit too organized for me. I am aiming more at a skrimish/small unit action level game. I already have one friend signed up to run the leftwingers, I'll do the right if I have to.
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Good stuff, I don't know much about american history during that period of time but it looks interesting.
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Smedley D. Butler is basically my all-time hero.
I have a fair number of pictures of him (not THAT many - it's not like there are very many pictures of the man) and used to have a lot of information that wasn't online. If you have questions about him I may well be able to answer them.
Butler openly supported the Bonus marchers, but it wasn't formally, it was more like verbal and moral support. He was approached specifically because the troops would have followed him.
MacArthur and Patton make very easy villains. Let me share one of my favourite pictures on the subject:
(http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/mexican-revolution/pershing-villa-obregon.jpg)
This is from the punitive expedition to Mexico in 1916-1917. In the front row, we have Obregon, Villa, and Pershing. Obregon and Villa are both alert and keen. Obregon is icy while Villa is wary and calculating, like coiled snakes trying not to look coiled. Pershing looks like a damned goofball - not so much a villain as a loud, brassy, and sadly guileless dope (reminds me of those pictures of Bush Jr and Putin).
Behind Pershing, to the far right, we see none other than Patton. And goddamned if that face doesn't scream nutcase sociopath. I wouldn't trust a face like that with his own mother.
Whenever Americans want to lionize Patton or MacArthur, they always face the problem of having to explain away their massive character flaws. This always seems absurd to me, because the Americans have a hero from the same era who was triple the general and ten times the man of either of those two, a man nobody ever has to make excuses for: Smedley D. Butler. But he's almost forgotten.
Well, not by everybody ;)
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I am trying to revive the period locally. We did a campaign, that you can follow through skrapwelders or my postings.
Yesterday I sorted my figures and vehicles for the period. It is officail. I have too many.
The other thing to look at in the period are the labor/management disputes. Lots of strikes that turned deadly. The battle of blair mountain comes to mind.
There was the motor-bandit sprees (Bonnie and Clyde, Dillinger, etc.), the organized gangsters, ie Al Capone,the 5 families of New York, the Detroit purple gang, etc. The whole bootlegging industry, where law breaking was accepted, because the laws were seen as stupid.
Throw in some class struggle, some racial tension and some foreign intervention....BOOM. Looking back on the history, it is amazing the country did not blow-up.
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not something am into to busy with the british one but nice to see the start laid out clearly :)
good luck with the project :)
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I got interested in this the last time it came around, and started writing up some "local color" (assisted by a friend who's a military historian and a professor at a local college:
The White Motor Riots
Cleveland, Ohio
The government crisis that rocked the country was mirrored on a smaller scale in Cleveland, Ohio. The failure of the stock market in 1929 had wiped out many local companies and weakened the rest. The Depression idled thousands of workers from the city’s factories and steel mills, increasing pressure on relief organizations as it did so. Cleveland’s population was largely composed of first-generation Americans and immigrants, while the areas surrounding the city harbored serious Nativist sentiments. The White Legion, with its anti-foreigner, anti-black, anti-Catholic and anti-communist message, attracted adherents from the (minority) White Protestant Americans of Cleveland, and their (majority) fellows in the areas surrounding the city. In response, ethnic, trade and political organizations within the city radicalized sharply through the early years of the Depression. Major employers in the city, worried about labor unrest and “disloyal elements”, created company police forces that bordered on the paramilitary. The railroads that ran through Cleveland were at the forefront of this trend. Involved with all of these factions to some degree or another were various organized crime groups, all flush and confident from years of running illegal liquor across Lake Erie and enjoying deep ties to local government, unions and law enforcement.
The White Motor Company, a major manufacturer of commercial trucks, recalled laid-off workers for construction of a large order of new vehicles. Based on the chassis of a White 7.5-ton truck but mounting plate steel protection and rough-terrain treads (provided by another White family company, the Cleveland Tractor Company), these armored cars would provide work for hundreds of idled hands. The company announced that they had been ordered by the British government for use in the Middle East, and a bowler-hatted envoy sporting a plummy English accent actually visited the production line that November.
The vehicles, furnished with weapons brought from Connecticut, were finished in February despite the intermittent labor unrest that had interrupted supplies of steel over the winter. Some people were puzzled by the customer’s decision to carry the armored cars over the Canadian border by rail rather than simply loading them aboard a freighter at the Port of Cleveland, but it was explained as a matter involving arcane British import laws – if the vehicles were shipped from Canada, then they entered England as a product of the Commonwealth, not as foreign imports.
100 White “Rupert” Armored Cars were placed on flatbed railcars, bound for Windsor, Ontario. The workers of White (and Cleveland) were shocked, therefore, when news reel footage of Nationalist troops besieging the Anaconda copper mines showed a phalanx of White Ruperts machine-gunning “rebels” in Missoula, Montana. The armored cars that White management had promised were being built for Britain had been shipped west from Windsor, offloaded at Lethbridge, Alberta and driven south across the US-Canada border to attack the striking miners of Butte from behind. As a result of the Missoula Strike, Cleveland burned...
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Another pretty good start to a 2nd ACW project right there.
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Plan Red is a bit too organized for me. I am aiming more at a skrimish/small unit action level game. I already have one friend signed up to run the leftwingers, I'll do the right if I have to.
I was thinking more on the lines of "since these were actual policies, it would be quite easy for someone (such as Macarthur) to start off something that adds foreign intervention"
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Pershing always strikes me as one of those "Goldurnit! I can tell he's honest from his handshake!" types. Almost a living stereotype of an "American General".
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Another fun fact:
Most people think of Patton with that fantastic George C. Scott voice from the movie. In real life, Patton had a rather high-pitched nasal whine. In fact, Patton's voice embarrassed him enough that he usually avoided public speaking.
There exists one video clip of Smedley D. Butler that I know if with sound (there are probably one or two more in some Marine Corps archive somewhere, I'm sure). It's film footage from his testimony before congress. And you know whose voice actually does sound a lot closer to the commanding Patton movie voice? Smedley D. Butler.
(voice clips start at about 1:25)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1-o8MVvQd7w#t=81s
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http://www.amazon.com/War-Racket-Americas-Decorated-ebook/dp/B003XRDBJY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1347517072&sr=8-4&keywords=Smedley+D.+Butler
Check out his book if you want, Its a good read.
Also I am wondering who, makes some good interwar states side US infantry?
Also looking for some good representative of the silver legion to.
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For silver legion I opted for WWI Austrians. They look similar to the Germans in soft cap,
Mark
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I read online that there uniforms looked like this.
"Modeled after Hitler's Brownshirts, the paramilitary Silver Legion wore a silver shirt with a tie along with a campaign hat and blue corduroy trousers with leggings. The uniform shirts bore a scarlet letter L."
I read that as meaning a "smokey the bear" Style cap. Can you post a pic of your Legion please :D
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A VERY AMERICAN CIVIL WAR
History Lesson 1
The Reality of 1930's National Politics.
The following is a simplification. I'm sorry, I don't feel like writing a 100 page essay on the way politics used to be. While gamers might know their history, I think it is better if I state the obvious for those younger people who don't know what things used to be like, and for foreigners might not know this stuff about the United States to begin with. Hell, I wasn't born until 1959, and things just started to change in the
60's
In the 21st Century saying Republican is like saying Conservative.
In the 21st Century saying Democrat is like saying Liberal.
That was not at all the case in the 1930s.
In the south, most white people were conservative and Democrats. They were referred to as Yellow Dog Democrats (they'd vote for a Yellow Dog before voting for a Republican). The solid South was solidly for the Democrats (not like now when it is solidly for the Republicans). Roosevelt didn't get a majority of black votes (where blacks could vote) until 1940. Though from a later time period Robert Byrd (who served as a Democratic U.S. Representative from 1953 until 1959 and as a Democratic U.S. Senator from 1959 to 2010) had been a Klansman. Yes, white Southerners were conservative, but it was an anti-banker/Wall Street kind of conservatism that didn't keep them from accepting government help. Given the economic state of the Old South during the Depression (remember most poor sharecroppers were white) it was help they needed.
Also there was a strong stream of liberalism in the Republican Party. Teddy Roosevelt busted the trusts. Western Republicans like Senator Robert M. La Follette, Sr. and his sons in Wisconsin (from about 1900 to 1946), and western leaders such as Senator Hiram Johnson in California, Senator George W. Norris in Nebraska, Senator Bronson M. Cutting in New Mexico, Congresswoman Jeannette Rankin in Montana, and Senator William Borah in Idaho supported the New Deal and Unions. Starting in the 1930s a number of Northeastern Republicans took liberal positions regarding labor unions, spending and New Deal policies. They included Mayor Fiorello La Guardia in New York City, Governor Thomas E. Dewey of New York, Governor Earl Warren of California, Senator Clifford P. Case of New Jersey, Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. of Massachusetts, Senator Prescott Bush of Connecticut (father of George H. W. Bush), Senator Jacob K. Javits of New York, Governor William Scranton of Pennsylvania, and Governor George Romney of Michigan.
And needless to say moderates abounded in both parties at the time, but what fun are those in a Civil War.
Next time I'll go into some weapons and equipment.
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Don't forget that FDR's VP for the first 8 years was John Garner, a Texan conservative democrat, that spent the 8 years opposing the New Deal. It was said that Garner had to "fix" his seat, as a the Republican candidate, an American of Mexican descent was his opponent, in the congressional election. Some say he was elected, but the black and hispanic (ie Republican) ballots were lost. There was never a recount.
I guess lost ballots expains how a lot of districts in Chicago could get 150% voter turn-out.
Unions were still having disputes between the types of unions. There were the original select trades unions model and the General union model. The first would only be specific jobs, like railroad engineers or boilermakers. The second would be industry wide, like United Autoworkers, or United Steelworkers.
Within Unions you also had splits on ethnic or national origin lines. Labels like Socialist or Communist were badges of honor to some and fighting words to others. Unions aren't likely to have fought each other, but different unions would support different factions, and might fail to support an attack or fail to show up on time etc.
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"President" Garner is hiding out in Texas at the moment. He'll be up to something. Maybe not Texas Indpendence but how about "devolution".
Or in American terms, we are still part of the United States, except for those laws we don't like.
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Next update the BAR
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/09/1.html
When you get tired of thsesx just let me know and I'll wait until I have an AAR to post anymore.
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Nice thing about the BAR is how many gangster figs in 28mm are already equipped with them.
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You know, it's an old trope to have a tough female gangster/criminal/mercenary/soldier wielding a gun far larger than they are. The BAR always reminds me that the one real and true example of that happening in real life was Bonnie Parker's known use of and love for that same gun.
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She really liked using Armor Piercing ammo with it.
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It is a very iconic weapon with a long career... yet when you think about it, it wasn't 'all that'. I have to admit I loved wielding one in the L.A. Noir X-Box game;
"They're BARs. You get the odd guy who sneaks one of them home from the war. How did he get three of them?"
:D
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Michelle Phillips (her out of The Mamas and the Papas) briefly gets to tote one in the 1973 Dillinger movie. That picture is just chock full of the things.
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Most of the motor gangsters (John Dillinger, B&C, MG Kelly etc) got theirs by the simple expedient of stealing them from local National Guard armories. The organized gangsters (Al Capone, the detroit purple gang, the New York five families etc.) would have bribed or blackmailed them out of an armory
Some BARs and a lot of Thompson submachineguns were legally purchased, as you could buy a machine gun in the US without restriction until 1934.
After 1934 there was a 200 dollar transfer tax along with the requirement that you get permission from local law enforcement. That permission is/was easier to get for some peoplle then for others and varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
The "Civilian" verson of the BAR was the Monitor. Slightly shorter barrel, and no bipod. The Bipod disappeared off many military weapons, as a field expedient in weight reduction.
Many other BARs were made under license by other counties. The Polish government made an 8mm caliber version that had an added pistol grip. Many considered that an improvement for prone firing.
Most of my factions have a figure per squad that is armed with a BAR. Well except for the commies that get Stalinist/Soviet foreign assistance.
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Check out our ACW2 Campaign from last year in the "Fire in the Valley" posts b Skrapwelder.
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I thought I had more possible troops than I do. I've got plenty with BARs and Tommyguns, not nearly enough with rifles and mshotguns, way too many with pistols.
I've got to get bhack to painting and order some more.
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We've run a few games with the same problems so our short term solution was to classify the pistols as the poor conscripts with poor morale - the folks you wouldn't trust with better weapons. The BARs and Thompsons were for the socially elite and they had heavy ammo restrictions and were trigger happy troops, shooting at unidentified targets at far ranges with no chance of hitting.
It made for some interesting games.
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Good idea, but I still need to get some painted up. I'll just order fewer additional.
I'll never die, I haven't painted all my figures lol
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Never let it be said that I don't wholeheartedly urge everyone to buy more lead - in fact this thread was the kick in the pants to get me to make three small orders in an effort to put together a civilian gun crew.
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We've run a few games with the same problems so our short term solution was to classify the pistols as the poor conscripts with poor morale - the folks you wouldn't trust with better weapons. The BARs and Thompsons were for the socially elite and they had heavy ammo restrictions and were trigger happy troops, shooting at unidentified targets at far ranges with no chance of hitting.
It made for some interesting games.
That actually makes a lot of sense. The rifles (and some shotguns) would often be farm boys or other country folk, most of whom can actually shoot.
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I have decided to go with a modified Where Heroes Dare for a game system rather than GASLIGHT. Are there any vehicle movement rules in the other games in that family?
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Here is my most recent post on VACW covering the 2 types of tanks that would have been somewhat readily available.
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/09/vacw-armor.html
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Will you be including the M1, M2 and M2 'Mae West' Combat Cars/Tanks in future instalments? ;)
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Don't forget the armed cars as well.
http://www.brigadegames.com/M1-Scout-Car-with-4-Crew-156th_p_1893.html
Also, is there a uniform guide some were showing what the Army was kited out with in the 1930s? Would regular, I was looking at the USMCs fighting in south America, but they just don't seem right for action in the Lower 48. At the same time lots of the great war figures look to gritty to me.
Also what was the stranded TO&E for a US infantry Company, platoon, and squad in the 30s?
Thoughts? Ideas?
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Actually I'm starting my campaign in 1933.
The M1, M2 combat cars don't come out till much later and the M1 Scout car isn't available until 1935.
In 1932 the 1st Cavalry lost their horses and became an armored unit. As late as the 1934 military exercises they only had 7 armored vehicles (regular trucks with a stripe of paint on them filled in for the other armored vehicles).
This is the era where the Army only was allowed 14 rounds a month per soldier for target practice.
I picked 33 because of the assissination attempt, but also because it was the worst point of the Depression. Things may not have been that much better later, but help was becoming available and things were looking up. By 1935 you could tell that the government was actually trying to help (TVA, WPA, CCC, actually ordering more than 10 armored vehicles at a time, etc.). In the very early 30's there was no hope and people would have been easier to mobilise for armed conflict.
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Though a wartime footing might see some of those early vehicles shoved into production. The T4 armored car for example was first tested in '31 even though it wasn't deployed until '35.
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Though a wartime footing might see some of those early vehicles shoved into production. The T4 armored car for example was first tested in '31 even though it wasn't deployed until '35.
That could be a good way to escalate things once the campaign gets going.
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T-4 OK who makes a model?
There are a number tanks and armored cars in developmental stages at the time (didn't Christie have a few tanks being evaluated by the Army). But who makes models of them in 25/28mm. Heck, you could take one of those sorta-looks-right for the times models that I have seen released recently and use it.
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Don't forget the ever popular home-made armored car. There would also be imports.
And who would end up with the tanks that were here Many were scattered to become VFW hall monuments. Getting one working would require enginers and/or mechanics. Those men would not likely be in the army.
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The M1917 and Liberty Tanks would generally still be in working condition. They are only 14 years old and they all the Army has. Sure outdated, but not yet obsolete.
Here's a quick and incomplete list of Interwar armored vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_interwar_armoured_fighting_vehicles#Light_armoured_cars
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Another post on a Very American Civil War. This one deals with terrain.
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/09/vacw-terrain.html
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You make some excellent points there.
The post war indeed transformed the US and it is easy to forget how different small towns were from today.
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Those are all some vary good idea. I have a few of the "old glory" 25mm Chicago style buildings siting in storage, think they would make a great main town, along with a few of the Perry bothers ACW era cabins for for a few houses and a single Room school house.
I also remember driving threw many communities you described in your post, while I was in the Old South and driving threw Idaho. And one feature in lots of them were Shotgun shacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_house
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T-4 OK who makes a model?
There are a number tanks and armored cars in developmental stages at the time (didn't Christie have a few tanks being evaluated by the Army). But who makes models of them in 25/28mm. Heck, you could take one of those sorta-looks-right for the times models that I have seen released recently and use it.
The BT-5 can stand in for Christie tanks, since it was based on them. If you want to make it more like the originals, either go with a cheesebox turret or no turret at all. Company B, JTFM, Force of Arms all have a version.
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Were was his work shop located? I could see an Emergency government putting these into production. Especial if Patton was on there command staff. He loved speed, and they would leave the "Liberty" and 6-ton tanks in the dust.
And Does any one Make versions with the "cheese Box" style turrets?
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Reviewing my sources I find that a number of the experimental tanks (his and others) were built at the Rock Island Armory in Northwest Illinois.
In 1932 American LaFrance Foamite ended up making a batch five of his tanks the T3E2 and they were based in Elmira New York.
No luck finding were his US Wheel and Track Laying Corporation was, but you could have them made in both places and supplied tpo both sides.
You could use a BT tank as a Christie but you will need to modify the turret (a rounder shape and armed with one of those 37mm trench guns instead of a proper AT gun).
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For a Christie T3 a BT-5 is close but you would have to go with a round turret.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
Or this one (which appeared on the La France version)
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
It looks like on the turret it has an MG and 37mm in front, and MGs on two of the sides in back. You'd also have to make the front look boxier than a BT-5 for the T3E2.
A bit more conversion skills than I have.
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Here is a link in both French and English.
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/1-USA/02-MediumTanks/Christie/File/Christie.htm#T3
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You make some excellent points there.
The post war indeed transformed the US and it is easy to forget how different small towns were from today.
Absolutely... this is all before the interstate system and all that.
Planning any city fights? Might be worth talking about the differences there too.
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While looking up the BT series I saw that the BT2 looks like an exact copy.
Anybody make it in 28mm or even 1/48?
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OK it's time to start the Campaign. Here's my first faction.
The Black Legion
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/09/my-vacw-campaign.html
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I can dig it, and if push comes to shove you can use some 1920s pulp cultist mins for some of the non-paramilitary Black Legion members.
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Some very cool ideas.
Were the black legion racist or more anti-communist?
Another point about the interstate Highway system. It was built in the 50's because of President Eisenhower. When he was a young man, he took a truck convoy across the US. It took 68 days to drive coast to coast. In part because the roads were bad but mostly because the roads never went anywhere directly. A road would connect 2 towns or cities or a county road might run in a straight line, for a while at least. Mostly the roads went to the train station.
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They hated communists, blacks, Jews, socialists, and even Catholics. Basically Klansmen with different colored hoods.
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One or two guys in robes might make good commisars, not that anyone in such a god fearin' right thinkin' organization would use such a term. Organizer would be out too, too lefty.
Still a rabble rousing fellow in a hood with a bible in one hand and a jug in the other could do a lot for the morale and stick withitness of the boys.
As to hating Catholics, here in Montana there are lots of Catholics but very few blacks. The only black gentleman, a well resspected and long time resident, in Miles City used to tell the story of the night the clan came to his door in the 30's with a spare hood and robe and invited him to join them in a cross burning at the home of a Catholic family that had moved in. Just proves folks could be more flexible than one might think.
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If they're going to be paramilitary in the field, you probably want a pseudo-military euphemism like "Field Captain" or something. You can also use a klan-esque title like Wizard, Grand Dragon, Sentinel, or similar (Grand Sentinel might be really good for this purpose).
Wikipedia actually has a full list of Klan titles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_titles_and_vocabulary
Some very cool ideas.
Were the black legion racist or more anti-communist?
Another point about the interstate Highway system. It was built in the 50's because of President Eisenhower. When he was a young man, he took a truck convoy across the US. It took 68 days to drive coast to coast. In part because the roads were bad but mostly because the roads never went anywhere directly. A road would connect 2 towns or cities or a county road might run in a straight line, for a while at least. Mostly the roads went to the train station.
That and the Allies' experience of the early German Autobahn system.
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And now someone for the Black Legion to fight.
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/10/another-vacw-faction.html
I am painting away like mad and hope to have miniatures to represent both sides ready to post soon.
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Gangster's against, Black hooded clansmen. Sounds like a great pulp film in the making.
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In the early twenties in Southern Illinois there was actually gangsters vs. Klansmen battles, though the Klansmen didn't wear their hoods.
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How many factions do you think you might be planning?
These factions actually seem more... specialized than I would have originally guessed, being very regional and specific in their membership. I gather you're going for a really chaotic AVACW, with many little splinter factions?
What about the big guns, like one of the two (or three?) main armies, with regular army forces and possibly also national guardsmen/demobbed veteran?
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Being a bit short of cash right now I'm working on what I already have (plenty in the Lead Pile for militia and JDF). Regulars, marines and naval troops will be added as I get the money.
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In the early twenties in Southern Illinois there was actually gangsters vs. Klansmen battles, though the Klansmen didn't wear their hoods.
Reminds me of a certain scene in Boardwalk Empire.
Where the Klan comes around to shoot up Chalky Whites warehouse with a Maxim of all things!
Pure fiction, mind you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnteojMwNnU
Be warned, it gets messy.
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Pretty good idea for a quick technical.
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Sorry for the delay, but I had to do some research for the next blog, which covers the Illinois National Guard.
http://mysteriousbill.weebly.com/2/post/2012/10/the-illinois-national-guard.html
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In the early twenties in Southern Illinois there was actually gangsters vs. Klansmen battles, though the Klansmen didn't wear their hoods.
I grew up in Williamson County (the epicenter for these shenanigans) and we had to learn all this local history. The mine wars, klan wars etc. "Bloody Williamson"
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I bet those were some interesting classes.
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In hindsight they were. At the time I was dreaming of far-off lands and fabled kingdoms. Home is never as exciting as "elsewhere". This is actually a pretty good book on the topic if anyone is interested:
http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Williamson-Chapter-American-Lawlessness/dp/0252062337/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350725593&sr=8-1&keywords=bloody+williamson (http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Williamson-Chapter-American-Lawlessness/dp/0252062337/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350725593&sr=8-1&keywords=bloody+williamson)
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Let's not forget the time the Shelton Brothers tried to bomb Charlie Birger from the air.
Or how both sets of gangsters made their own armored cars.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=18065.0
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I thought I might post this over here as it seems to me it might be a good resource for AVACW fans - I've been pottering around on the Flags of the World site and come across a page of fictional flags inspired by the Stars and Stripes, which might provide some different takes for different factions in AVACW ("I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognise Missouri!" etc). Anyway, this is the page - http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGS/fic-usa.html - including an interesting one with 13 stripes and a single large white star, representing an alternative-reality (I think, rather than an alternative history or future) 'United Republic of America', which might be an interesting idea to chuck into the mix - perhaps one of the groups has a perspective of a closer Union, not a federal republic but a unified national republic. There are also versions with different symbols instead of the stars, including an eagle, and a pyramid-with-eye, as well as one with the flag of the Soviet Union in the corner instead of the stars, for anyone playing a communist faction. There's also some flags based on Confederate flags too.
The good stuff is scattered around, as I'm sure you'll find if you go poking about on the site. I'm not going to link to all the pages that might be useful (partly because there's loads, partly so as not to fall foul of banned symbolism rules), but some of my faves include the flag of 'Central' from 'My Name is Earl' (apparently Camden County refused to join either North or South in the first Civil War and declared 'Central' instead, before being conquered by both the main protagonists)- (http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/Central.gif~original)
'Daniel's Territory' from 'Jeremiah' that looks like a groovy flag - (http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/daniels.gif~original)
and several variations of 'the State Flag of whatever state Sprinfield in the Simpsons is in', including this one - (http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/Springfield2.gif~original)
Anyway, I've been having fun there, I hope y'all do too!
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Pretty cool. And thanks for the links
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There's also some flags based on Confederate flags too.[...]
[...]and several variations of 'the State Flag of whatever state Sprinfield in the Simpsons is in', including this one - (http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/Springfield2.gif)
You should definitely do that other Simpsons' State flag, the one with a Confederate flag in it (Why is that even on it - we're a Northern State! )
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So hows the project coming along? :D
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This has so much potential. Hundreds of different factions scrambling for power. I think a lot of these would be unique to each state. Some of the larger factions would obviously be the U.S. Armed Forces, but who do they follow, and would they fight each other. The 9th and 10th Cavalry would be an excellent example, would they revolt if the Army follows a pro-fascist course. The CCC, Labor Unions, communists, anarchists, the KKK, Silver Shirts, and other fascists. Heck, the American Legion, Cox's Army, Oddfellows, Masons, Daughters of the American Revolution even. Henry Ford could be a supporter of the Fascists, easily producing vehicles, weapons, and sending forces out across America via his small private air force of ford tri-motors to stir up trouble, secure strategic resources, and help out in trouble spots. Why not even have Adolf send over some military advisers to help old Henry out. German subs in the Great Lakes, Italo Balbo and his flying boats doing commando style raids on the east coast. The Japanese using the occasion to move in on some U.S. territory, Hawaii, the Philippines, maybe even the Panama Canal. Why not have MacArthur making a deal with the Japanese (oh the irony) to help secure an unruly west coast, while he deals with the east, all in exchange for some much needed oil to run the Japanese war machine. French Foreign Legion, and the French Expeditionary force landing in New Orleans (where else). The roads are still in poor shape, and not likely to get fixed anytime soon, lots of horse cavalry put back into action. Fighting over the Texas-Oklahoma oil fields, West Virginia coal mines, and various industrial centers. The fledgling civilian aircraft business converted to war production, by putting guns on existing civilian planes. The 99's flying combat missions and air support (some air combat would be an interesting side on occasion).
sorry, just brain storming.
Lots of cool things that could be done with this setting.
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I've got the JDF finished, a lot of militia done, and some Chicago Police with a paddy wagon. I've ordered some skull and crossbones from Company B to use on the Black Legion, I need to finish painting a school and a farmhouse, and I need more militia with shotguns. I also have some marines to paint up and I really need to order some more BUF for the Black Legion troopers.
I'll be delayed because I need to finish a few things for a couple games I'm running (non-VACW) at Winter War 40 in Champaign, IL in late January.
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I almost forgot. The environmental disaster that is the Dust Bowl was in full swing. Immigrants fleeing the plains states. The Okies flooding California.
A good bit on the U.S. military during the Inter-war period (http://www.history.army.mil/books/AMH-V2/AMH%20V2/chapter2.htm) here.
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Is anybody besides a few guys in Sacramento us still playing in this period?
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Well you know I am still interested. And other I talk to locally are interested. But they turn around spend their money on the newest GW offering, so not much Joy. :(
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Well you know I am still interested. And other I talk to locally are interested. But they turn around spend their money on the newest GW offering, so not much Joy. :(
That's always been the biggest issue locally... Although I can blame Warmachine, Bolt Action and Flames of War just as much in my neck of the woods.
I've realised the trick with any project is just to buy enough to game both sides myself, and rope in other gamers to use my figures.
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That's always been the biggest issue locally... Although I can blame Warmachine, Bolt Action and Flames of War just as much in my neck of the woods.
I've realised the trick with any project is just to buy enough to game both sides myself, and rope in other gamers to use my figures.
Yep, been slowly trying to do that.... And then getting distracted by my other projects. lol
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OOOh shiny.!.!.! :o I get distracted by things I bought years ago and find again.
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OOOh shiny.!.!.! :o I get distracted by things I bought years ago and find again.
Same here. lol
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OOOh shiny.!.!.! :o I get distracted by things I bought years ago and find again.
Yes sometime last century...