Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: painterman on October 21, 2012, 06:46:02 PM
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As some of you here will know, I'm gradually collecting Burgundian and Swiss armies for the 1476-77 wars; the progress is posted on my blog. I also will be extending my 1420s HYW armies for a planned refight of Cravant at next year's Salute.
So frankly I probably don't need another distraction. :-[ However the Perrys Italian figures for the 1450-1500 period keep catching my key and I'm getting increasingly tempted to assemble some modest forces for some of the states - coupled with on-tap flags from Pete's Flags and Flags of War - and the hope that someone may produce some shield transfers too for the period.
So, aside from planning out troops on paper, I've had a go at a quick paint job using 3 approaches. All of these have been done with a white undercoat followed by a wash of GW Devaln Mud to show the details. Then light shades have been added to block in the colours before a 'wash and highlight' approach.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/chicks_photos/IMG_3653.jpg)
Left hand figure was washed with a 50-50 mix of GW Devlan Mud and GW Ogryn Flesh. Then the following had highlights piked out, using the original colour used - flesh, coat, tabard, leggings and metalwork - as I did with all the figures. The centre figures had same treatment but using Army Painter Strong Tone brushed on. The right hand one used Army Painter Dark Tone.
The good news is that this is a much faster approach for me than my usual 3-layer painting. This is critical if I'm going to try and squeeze in another period. Painting the lighter tones is very uncomfortable, but there is a bit of a 'eureka moment' when the shading is applied and the figure's details emerge. It is of course a trade-off between the finish and time taken.
I realise that from the photo there may not appear to be a clear 'winner', as the finish looks rather similar. The washes mix does get into all the details, but creates a figures that's initially 'dirtier' and so needs the highlighting of the original colours and frankly would look better with more highlights of a lighter tone (but then I'd be saving less time). With the AP dip, there is also a dulling of the colours, and so highlights are needed, but theres also a lustre too, which marginally is tipping me towards this route. AP does need a good matt varnish to finish and although I've brushed on Humbrol Dull Coat, there's still a slight sheen. I don't think a sprayed on varnish will help as I like the finish of the AP on the metal and so don't want this to lose it's gloss finish.
So, currently I have a slight preference for the AP Dark Tone - as it gives darker shading and gives a tone to the armour plate that I like. I need to do more tests - as there are colours that seem to work better with AP over them than others as i want to avoid the figures looking too dark and 'muddy' (& I've studied the impressive results of Phil Hendry and Dave Imrie with the dip). I'm not sure which way I'll go with horse flesh - so thats the next test I think. I'm also aware that the best dipped figures I've seen are on those sculpted with deeper undercuts, where the varnish can settle and dry to give the shade and contrasts - I'm fear that the Perrys sculpting style is the most accommodating to the dip?
Thanks for reading all this rambling! I know that this is not a new topic but any experiences/thoughts of others here, with using washes and dips for speedy results, would be most appreciated.
Cheers, Simon.
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Nice job on these, Simon : I think the one on the left is my favourite, but the diference with the other two is admittedly not that significant.
And your rambling makes for very interesting reading too : I'm considering giving the AP/GW wash method a try, and I find posts such as this one most useful.
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So frankly I probably don't need another distraction :-[
Welcome to my world ;)
I actually prefer the figure on the left with the Devlan Mud wash - but that may be down to the figure as much as the finish.
In the hands of a good painter such as yourself, the block colour and wash approach can yield perfectly acceptable results for the table top.
No, you're not going to attract the usual plaudits for your paintwork - and I don't honestly swallow the AP hype that (literally) dipping your figures in a pot of gloop offers satisfactory results. But used judiciously, it gives a reasonable effect, and you should be able to get a sizeable force on the table in double-quick time. They'll look great from more than a couple of feet away in any event :)
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I have some of these on my painting table too.
I saw them on the Perry new releases and "just had to buy them" even though I have more than enough crossbows and handgonnes.
They are not going to distract me - instead they will to bolster the Italian part of my Burgundian Arm. :) :)
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The one on the right works for me :)
Quick question about the white leg, is the black design a form of heraldry or a unit identifier or some such?
cheers
James
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The one on the left is working best for me although that said there's not much in it.
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I'm with the herd, the one on the left looks better. I think there's more control with paint washes and where it doesn't look right, you can thin it out with brush and water in any case. I hadn't read the text before looking at the figures and the difference between the three stood out for me.
Nice work!
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Welcome to my world ;)
I actually prefer the figure on the left with the Devlan Mud wash - but that may be down to the figure as much as the finish.
In the hands of a good painter such as yourself, the block colour and wash approach can yield perfectly acceptable results for the table top.
Agreed, I have used Devlan Mud on may a HYW miniature but I always end up adding three or four highlights thus negating the point of using a 'quick' wash approach o_o.
No, you're not going to attract the usual plaudits for your paintwork - and I don't honestly swallow the AP hype that (literally) dipping your figures in a pot of gloop offers satisfactory results. But used judiciously, it gives a reasonable effect, and you should be able to get a sizeable force on the table in double-quick time. They'll look great from more than a couple of feet away in any event :)
Yeah, games are usually seen from such a distance.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help really Simon..... :)
Darrell.
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Any chance of seeing more detailed pictures of the two army painter guys? I'm in the process of deciding if I want strong tone or dark tone.
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Vonplutz
Here's a closer cropped pic - hope it helps. Not a great difference, but I prefer the slightly great contrast from Dark Tone.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/chicks_photos/IMG_3653-1.jpg)
Jimbibbly,
The clothing is just 15th century fashion as far as I know. Lots of interesting patterns on italian leggings, which I'm collating for potential future use.
Thanks for all the comments. Am having a go at a few more using wash variants - more test pics soon.
Simon.
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Thanks Simon, would this sort of thing be used in England do you know?
cheers
James
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That helped a bunch, my eyes aren't all that great and squinting at your first picture didn't help much. I definitely agree with you that the contrast of the Dark tone looks nice. Is the tunic he is wearing painted brown originally or is that a yellow?
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Vonplutz,
The jacket on the right hand figure is a GW Foundation paint - it's a dark yellow/ochre colour - I'll have to check the name when I get home (although they've been renamed since).
Jim,
Not seen evidence of this style of clothing in England, although there are a lot more paintings of 15th century italians than English remaining for us to refer to. Perhaps just on some fashionable young men who kept the Papal envoy 'company' on his long trips to England? ::)
Simon.
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Thanks Simon, would this sort of thing be used in England do you know?
Heavens no! A fine turned pair of calves under woollen hose is all the peacockery needed for a stout red-blooded English Yeoman! :D
Good question... as Simon says, not much in the way of evidence (if any), but all foreign fads (silly hats, the French disease, arquebuses and peacocks) eventually made their way over in time...
;)
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Vonplutz,
The jacket on the right hand figure is a GW Foundation paint - it's a dark yellow/ochre colour - I'll have to check the name when I get home (although they've been renamed since).
Jim,
Not seen evidence of this style of clothing in England, although there are a lot more paintings of 15th century italians than English remaining for us to refer to. Perhaps just on some fashionable young men who kept the Papal envoy 'company' on his long trips to England? ::)
Simon.
Thanks that's good enough just needed confirmation that it wasn't a bright colour that got damped down that much.
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Heavens no! A fine turned pair of calves under woollen hose is all the peacockery needed for a stout red-blooded English Yeoman! :D
Good question... as Simon says, not much in the way of evidence (if any), but all foreign fads (silly hats, the French disease, arquebuses and peacocks) eventually made their way over in time...
;)
Sounds good enough to me :D
cheers
James
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Sounds good enough to me :D
cheers
James
I have serious doubts that it happened simultaneously though..... so maybe for armies that are a little later then the Perry stuff is aimed at.
Darrell.
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I have serious doubts that it happened simultaneously though..... so maybe for armies that are a little later then the Perry stuff is aimed at.
Well yes, fashions took time to transfer, if they did at all and there is no way we can put a time frame on something we don't have any evidence for. I personally wouldn't paint figures representing non-Italians with that style of hose, but then again I couldn't honestly say that such a stance is wholly historically accurate with any great degree of certainty.
Italians got about though, we have a whole Ordonnance Company of them in Guelderland in 1477, besides the numbers serving with Duke Charles elsewhere; although whether they'd swapped their native fashion for something more suitable to Northern Europe is worth considering. London, Bordeaux, Bruge and Antwerp were the main ports of call for Italian ships, so the potential for the style to transfer and become common is there at least... I'd put the potential for a new Italian fashion taking off as taking 6 months to a year to make the journey North, rather than years.
As for the Perry figures, I'm no fashion expert by any means, but they represent to me a quite narrow period of time themselves and one that owes more to the 1470's and 80's than it does to 1461 and even more so than 1450, or even 1500. Certainly labelling them as 1450-1500 is a tad anachronistic to say the least. Fashion moved slower than today... but not that slow.
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I've done the rest of the Italian handgunners, taking in your feedback.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/chicks_photos/IMG_3655.jpg)
So these are all done with GW washes - I changed the mix to be more 70:30 Ogryn Flesh to Devlan Mud and so try to get a warmer shading tone. I also added some acrylic flow enhancer, which both diluted the wash and made it easier to push around the figures and into the areas where I most wanted it.
Again the flesh and main clothing items were highlighted back up with the initial blocking colour. The use of Army Painter is now just for the plate armour (the helms on these figures) with a GW Silver highlight and mail was a black wash drybrushed with silver.
With all this work these figures are still considerably quicker for me - it was just a couple of hours in total I would think from start to finish. If I had a production line process then it should be even speedier.
Happy with these - the actual colours are quite a bit brighter than shown here, as the pic was taken in fast fading daylight - and when based up they should be OK. Am now creeping closer to making definite plans for some small armies.
So now on to painting tests for horses.
Cheers, Simon.
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They look excellent... I'm going to have to try that for myself. :)
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They turned out a treat Simon 8)
cheers
James
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Cracking work Simon :)
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Nice work 8).
Darrell.
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So here are the last test figures; mounted men at arms as Condottieri.
The horses have been washed with a mix of GW washes and then highlighted back up (not so clear in the photo) whilst the riders armour is GW silver with Army painter Dark tone dip brushed on. The leather work, plumes and cloth have also been covered in the dip and then been highlighted again and finally had a matt varnished brushed over (but not on the armour plates).
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/chicks_photos/IMG_3721.jpg)
I'm going to base some up to finish them, but I'm happy that I've found a speedier process which still keeps some details and visual appeal - particularly when en masse on a tabletop. Hopefully I can keep some of these progressing betwixt Burgundians & Swiss.
Cheers for now,
Simon.
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I think the figures look excellent, especially the last batch of hand gunners. If you're able to paint them that quickly then you should have no problem banging out a few quality armies in next to no time! :)
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I'm very impressed and is what I hope mine will look like after I get out the brushes... I have these delusions though. ::)
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Simon,
Are you planning to have these as Italian Companies to go with your Burgundians?
I have just seen your "Burgundian barding" on your blog.
Do you have any pictures of the finished version?
Mick
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Hi Mick,
Plan is for some Italian city states forces; I'll still use these figure castings (painted separately) for my Burgundians.
Haven't gotten to the Burgundian barding yet - undercoat is on though :)
Simon.
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That's a great project Simon, I am curious to see its evolution. I like the revival of interest in Italian armies that came with the new Perrys!!!
What city-states are you thinking on doing? Any battle or company in particular?
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Do you mind explaining how you base the infantry? Looks like you have them on a coin with wood fill or spackle. Do you paint them first then put them on? do you glue them down or does the spackle/wood fill hold them in place?
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Great paintjob.
I like the natural colortones you have achieved.
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Vonplutz
Re the basing approach - these figures are just held on coins for the painting process by a lump of bluetac.
My Je Lay Emprins blog has an entry on my basing process - last year I think (sorry, I can't access it to create you a link at the moment). It's nothing revolutionary - bases glued on, filler to smooth over the edges and then stones and grit glued on with wood glue, before the painting proces.
Hope that helps - let me know if you need the direct link.
Simon.
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Ah thanks. Mistook the white bluetac for spackle or woodfill.