Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Red Orc on October 24, 2012, 08:12:59 PM
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Hola chaps & chapesses, looking around for info on an imaginary country in Africa, I remembered about the Flags of the World website and its 'Fictional Flags' section, which I'd investigated looking for a flag for Ruritania. Having then spent about four days checking out all the flags, I now have a folder on my desktop with about 70 flags in it and the beginings of a gazeteer of Imaginations including Zengaro (from 'Dogs of War'), Sangala (from '24'), Buranda (from 'Yes Minister'), Khemed & San Theodoro (from 'Tintin') and Nambutu & San Monique (from various 'James Bond' films).
Are you using these countries in your own games? There are really too many to list, but the question I suppose is 'do you use fictional geography or nations in your games, and if so, which?' For those of you who are, do you stick the background as written (Buranda Crisis in 1980, General Alcazar overthrowing General Tapioca in 1976, etc) or do you play about with it? And, if you want to elaborate on any of the events in 'your' version of Matobo, Maguadora or Salouf, please, be my guest!
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My Force on Force campaign is set in the fictional civil war torn West African country of Zugando. It is an Imagi-nation roughly based on Sudan and Congo, and roughly geographically where Uganda is.
As Civil War has spiralled out of control and into genocide, a coalition of African Union, US and UK forces have been sent in to try to keep the peace. UK and US special forces are currently trying to neutralise the rebels chain of command, while Nigerian, Zugandan and UK troops try to protects the coastal cities from rebel attacks.
It gives me an excuse to paint a lot of African militia, and some nice Special Forces too. It's set roughly about 2000, but the details are a bit hazy, so no one gan pick me up on historic accuracy :P
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Don't forget Equatorial Kundu, from the TV series the West Wing.
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Sorry Rob, can't resist this -
... West African country of Zugando... roughly geographically where Uganda is... Nigerian, Zugandan and UK troops try to protects the coastal cities ...
Roughly where Uganda is, except it's on the coast, in West Africa, you mean? ;)
I'm prioritising countries with a flag already drawn on the FOTW site, but I have been cross-referencing that with the list of fictional countries on wiki (obviously, I extended it outside of Africa after a bit). I am aware of Equatorial Kundu, it's West Wing's version of Equatorial Guinea. But, as I'm a Brit, and of 'a certain age', I'm sticking with Buranda from 'Yes Minister' for an analogue of Equatorial Guinea (anyway, Buranda has a flag here - http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGS/fic%5Eyesm.html , unlike equatorial Kundu) - http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/f/fic%5Eyesm0!.jpg is a screen-grab from the episode where the Buranda Crisis erupts, and it seems to be where Equatorial Guinea is (and apparently it was known in the 'Yes Minister' history as 'British Equatorial Africa'). In my parallel Africa, Equatorial Kundu is going to be next door, where Gabon is.
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Currently? No.
But watch this space.
For the past AGES I've just been messing around with projects or planning but never following up.
But over the next few months the Plastic Soldier Company has a lot of US kit on the way in 15mm.
I love the 1950s, I love US equipment, I hate Commies... so why not Latin America...!?
Who knows, I might finally have something useful to contribute to the forum... ::)
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Sorry Rob, can't resist this -
Roughly where Uganda is, except it's on the coast, in West Africa, you mean? ;)
Sorry- I meant Sierra Leone ::)
I'm prioritising countries with a flag already drawn on the FOTW site, but I have been cross-referencing that with the list of fictional countries on wiki (obviously, I extended it outside of Africa after a bit). I am aware of Equatorial Kundu, it's West Wing's version of Equatorial Guinea. But, as I'm a Brit, and of 'a certain age', I'm sticking with Buranda from 'Yes Minister' for an analogue of Equatorial Guinea (anyway, Buranda has a flag here - http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGS/fic%5Eyesm.html , unlike equatorial Kundu) - http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/f/fic%5Eyesm0!.jpg is a screen-grab from the episode where the Buranda Crisis erupts, and it seems to be where Equatorial Guinea is (and apparently it was known in the 'Yes Minister' history as 'British Equatorial Africa'). In my parallel Africa, Equatorial Kundu is going to be next door, where Gabon is.
Perhaps Buranda changed it's name to Equatorial Kundu- many nations have changes their names in the post colonial period.
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Don't forget Borduria and Syldavia!
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Sorry- I meant Sierra Leone ::)...
Ah, well that's definitely in West Africa and on the coast then. My faith in your imaginary geography is restored!
Perhaps Buranda changed it's name to Equatorial Kundu- many nations have changes their names in the post colonial period.
I did think of that, obviously Burkina Faso and Democratic Republic of Congo have both changed from their first post-colonial names and there may be others in Africa, but as I only have about 17 African imaginations with flags, and there are at a guess 50 or so countries in Africa, if I want to fill up the whole map (which I'm not sure I do) I either need to assign one flag per 3 countries (eg, 'Matobo' = Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, or whatever); or fill up some of the 33 or so gaps with 'other' countries (like Equatorial Kundu) that border the 'main' countries (ie, ones with flags). Two tier system really: existing flag = grand, I'm detailing your country (except Babar's Kingdom); no flag = I might get round to it if there's something interesting (TV show or film that I've seen, book I've read, author whose other work I'm using somewhere) about it. Anything by Evelyn Waugh is in (I'm already using things based on his stuff for VSF and VBCW), 'The Wild Geese' is in, but any other sources for flagless imaginations from the wiki list have to make the grade. And I never watched 'the West Wing'.
Don't forget Borduria and Syldavia!
Haven't gotten round to Europe yet, not for the 20th-21st centuries (done some work on 19th-early20th centuries connected to Ruritania), so not sure where Borduria (Hungary?) and Syldavia (Serbia?) would fit in. But, having started the African research I realised that stuff I have relating to Bolivia could just as easily take place in San Theodoros, Sao Rico or Nuevo Rico (the fact that the original setting is Bolivia is pretty unimportant, really I just need a South American country with a jungle). I know that logically, Sao Rico, Neuvo Rico and San Theodoros (logically at least) must be in Central America rather than South (the Mayan-style ruins rather point that way at least) but Herge always refers to them as 'South America'. Can't help thinking however that 'South America' here might be a substitute for 'Latin America'... anyway, I'm trying to shoe-horn in as much of Tintin's geography as I can!
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Sorry, strange double-post going on.
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I did think of that, obviously Burkina Faso and Democratic Republic of Congo have both changed from their first post-colonial names and there may be others in Africa
It is a tricky business changing names!
Everybody's heard of Burma, but who knows Myanmar?
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I tend to fictionalise actual countries, rather than running with pre-exisitng fictional countries (I had 'Not-Rhodesia', a 'not-Congo' and a 'Not-Biafra/Nigeria'.) The only real exception to that as been for my 40mm Modern Eastern European stuff, where I have adopted the setting and factions from the Arma 2 computer game (Chernarus - they even did a print out 'tourst map' which is availablefrom their web store if you want a littl bit of the setting to take with you lol)
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I played a series of "Revolucione!" games in a friend's Imagi-Nation. He called it Guemanga, and the capitol city was Carto Verde
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Bongolesia is very popular over at TMP, especially for AK47 games.
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My fictitious African nation is called Congaline. Why is it African imagi-nations attract puns like jam attracts wasps?
In Transformers the cartoon there was a fictional rogue terrorist state in the middle east and- I kid you not- it was called Carbomba. Wrong on so many levels- but in a kids TV show... ::)
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I've been slowly resurrecting the Isla de Hispañola, with its twin nations Bulonga and Agresora. It originally began in the Caribbean, but has somehow ended up in the Indian Ocean in its current incarnation. I'm sort of stuck in the sixties and seventies, so the countries are very low-tech in terms of equipment. I tend to go overboard on background, so I have a history, climate and geography for them, but not much on the present at the moment.
You can have a lot of fun with names and events... the dutch mercenary Hertz van Rentle immediately springs to mind, but sometimes it's hard to top what goes on for real with some countries there. There's a coup and tanks are on the streets... it must be Friday...
Sent by iphone from the office of His Excellency President for Life Field Marshal Godsgift Chilembi, VC, DSO, MC and bar, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Bulonga in Particular. The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, goes from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake.
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One must have puns, of course. I have been known to speculate about the adventures of a piratical Dutchman called Captain Van Dango, and his second-in-command, the French assassinatrix Anna-Baptiste, the Boer Wars battle of Bendt Kop, and suchlike.
Bezzo, those guys in your photo look spiffing. Especially the guerrilla soldiers on the right at the front.
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In Transformers the cartoon there was a fictional rogue terrorist state in the middle east and- I kid you not- it was called Carbomba. Wrong on so many levels- but in a kids TV show... ::)
You ain't seen nothing yet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0MVuWDc5RQ
Stop bidding against me or I will invade you!!!
Strangely, this one of the few Captain Planet episodes that were never shown on German television ::)
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You ain't seen nothing yet...
Stop bidding against me or I will invade you!!!
Strangely, this one of the few Captain Planet episodes that were never shown on German television ::)
I don't know which is worse, that handlebar or his real moutache! :?
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There's always Berezink if you're looking for someone European. They were always trying to blow something up in Thunderbirds.
For an African country, there's Nambutu from Casino Royale.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_african_countries
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My imagi-nation Set in Europe is call Pineland Kind of stole it from my days in the military, its boarded by Redforea and Opforia. :D
My Fictional Middle-eastern Nation is called Rag-a-stain
African Ongo Bongo
and my Latin American nation is called Atlantico
And for Fictional nations in north America I have Pacifica, Desseret, and Cascadia.
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The comic-strip "Doonesbury" has the nation of Berzerkistan. I think I like that one...
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I found this earlier... Bulongan Beach Blanket Bingo...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IHl8q3DvsZc/UIqiOO4NAiI/AAAAAAAALc0/XAxI_klVjdk/s720/bard_719.jpg)
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It is a tricky business changing names!
Everybody's heard of Burma, but who knows Myanmar?
:D
I do!
I worked South East Asia for over a decade. :-I lol ::)
Gracias,
Glenn
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I found this earlier... Bulongan Beach Blanket Bingo...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IHl8q3DvsZc/UIqiOO4NAiI/AAAAAAAALc0/XAxI_klVjdk/s720/bard_719.jpg)
Alright guys, bardsong is in effect. You've all got +1 to attack and damage rolls.
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Alright guys, bardsong is in effect. You've all got +1 to attack and damage rolls.
Too funny!!!! lol
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http://forums.nationstates.net/nation=rosswood (http://forums.nationstates.net/nation=rosswood)
Greetings, from President Dardin of The Allied States of Rosswood!
We are located in the Pacific Northwest, on islands located 250 miles off of the coast of North America. We gained independance from the US and Canada in 1955, as long as we helped fight Communism during the Cold War.
This is my Imagi-nation created for the Nationstates game. You may use my nation as much as you like for your games.
Soldiers of Rosswood in 2007:
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac207/calgar_20/NationStates/405915664.jpg)
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac207/calgar_20/NationStates/021710at_multicam_2_800.jpg)
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It's interesting seeing an ultra-modern western imagi-nation. Most people choose a real power and come up with a fake OPFOR.
I use the nation of Musoria as my OPFOR against my modern ADF. They've gone through three separate incarnations, Indonesian, Russian and Chinese wannabes... More or less how the ADF have perceived them over the years :P
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Surely, the pick of all Latin American imagi-nations has to be Tejada?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiJAcThiTH8&feature=related
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My African setting is Morvalonga formerly the British colony of Morvalistan. Its geography is (very) loosely based on Kenya. Its characters, factions, politics and forces are purely fictitious. And most places and people suffer from the terribly infectious endemic Punning Disease.
President for Life, Saviour of the Nation, the Legendary Bishop Moses Besqit has held power in all of the recent elections. They were all fair and open he says. The main internal opposition comes from the relatively peaceful but vociferous Lon Leggi, and the insurgents under General Wotabiq Birbelli and their armed rebellion. He is supported by the neighboring Islamic Kingdom of Qaza’ar and in particular its Regent, General Q’stard Qareem.
The Bishop (God Bless Him)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/dadlamassu/DSCF3298.jpg)
General Wotabiq Birbelli
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/dadlamassu/DSCF3439.jpg)
Insurgent gangs
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/dadlamassu/DSCF3435.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/dadlamassu/DSCF3436.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/dadlamassu/Fictional%20Africa%204/DSCF3580.jpg)
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That last "insurgent gang" - Oh My. :o ;)
New Meaning to Cheetah Girls...
Gracias,
Glenn
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http://forums.nationstates.net/nation=rosswood (http://forums.nationstates.net/nation=rosswood)
Greetings, from President Dardin of The Allied States of Rosswood!
We are located in the Pacific Northwest, on islands located 250 miles off of the coast of North America. We gained independance from the US and Canada in 1955, as long as we helped fight Communism during the Cold War.
This is my Imagi-nation created for the Nationstates game. You may use my nation as much as you like for your games.
Soldiers of Rosswood in 2007:
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac207/calgar_20/NationStates/405915664.jpg)
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac207/calgar_20/NationStates/021710at_multicam_2_800.jpg)
Hey a fellow NS player, awesome.
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Yep, they use the X-box controllers on drones.
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Yep, they use the X-box controllers on drones.
Actually, they were used for the small, handheld drones that were going to used as part of the Future Force Warrior project for the US.
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Yep, used a them in the Stan and in training a few times before I got out. But i guess I should have been more specific, Drones is an all encompassing term.
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I know the imagi-nation thing is all good fun.
But sometimes... it just seems a bit....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6cpU_iIqLs
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Firstly- let me say that is a VERY funny clip- it made me laugh out loud.
I can see your point and personally I have kept all silly puns and such like at a good arm's length for that very reason.
My reason for developing an Imagi-nation (which is Zugando, a civil war torn West African state) was because I wanted to try out some modern era wargaming, inspired by call of duty MW3, but I felt very uncomfortable playing a game based around real, resent or even ongoing conflicts. somehow, and I can't even explain why, it felt 'wrong'- even though I am happy to game French and Indian wars, and other older conflicts.
Drawing inspiration from Call of Duty's fictional setting, and from the imaginary historical period in Very British Civil War, I could see that an Imagination would allow me to base a campaign in a modern world setting, and still give the right feel, while not offending my own strange sense of moral correctness.
For me, the pleasure of gaming a historical period is learning about the setting. Zugando has proven just as informative and interesting as a real world setting, and I have learned masses about modern weapons and equipment, post-colonial African politics, civil war, counter-terrorism, camouflage (I can tell the difference between Multicam and DPM!)
Anther advantage of a an imagi-nation is that no one can tell me that my army isn't correct, as it's my nation. This is often cited as one of the main reasons why people love the VBCW setting, and I am sure goes some what to explaining why imagi-nations are popular. If, for example, I manage to get a BTR cheep on eBay, I can always decide that it is a surplus ex-soviet vehical sold to the Zugandan rebels by an unscrupulous Russian arms dealer- who is going to argue?
So for me, at least, I find that the advantages of an imagi-nation outweigh any awkwardness. The key is to keep it as realistic as possible. No silly puns. No old stereotypes.
I hope this makes some sense to you.
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Firstly- let me say that is a VERY funny clip- it made me laugh out loud.
I can see your point and personally I have kept all silly puns and such like at a good arm's length for that very reason.
My reason for developing an Imagi-nation (which is Zugando, a civil war torn West African state) was because I wanted to try out some modern era wargaming, inspired by call of duty MW3, but I felt very uncomfortable playing a game based around real, resent or even ongoing conflicts. somehow, and I can't even explain why, it felt 'wrong'- even though I am happy to game French and Indian wars, and other older conflicts.
Drawing inspiration from Call of Duty's fictional setting, and from the imaginary historical period in Very British Civil War, I could see that an Imagination would allow me to base a campaign in a modern world setting, and still give the right feel, while not offending my own strange sense of moral correctness.
For me, the pleasure of gaming a historical period is learning about the setting. Zugando has proven just as informative and interesting as a real world setting, and I have learned masses about modern weapons and equipment, post-colonial African politics, civil war, counter-terrorism, camouflage (I can tell the difference between Multicam and DPM!)
Anther advantage of a an imagi-nation is that no one can tell me that my army isn't correct, as it's my nation. This is often cited as one of the main reasons why people love the VBCW setting, and I am sure goes some what to explaining why imagi-nations are popular. If, for example, I manage to get a BTR cheep on eBay, I can always decide that it is a surplus ex-soviet vehical sold to the Zugandan rebels by an unscrupulous Russian arms dealer- who is going to argue?
So for me, at least, I find that the advantages of an imagi-nation outweigh any awkwardness. The key is to keep it as realistic as possible. No silly puns. No old stereotypes.
I hope this makes some sense to you.
Hey, Rob! Glad you enjoyed the clip.
All of your points there make perfect sense to me.
I myself am an imagi-nations gamer, so I was directing that at myself as much as anyone else. Once upon a time I used to set games in my fictional former-Communist kleptocracy.
It just gave me freedom to borrow as I pleased from the Yugoslav Wars and the War of Transnistria (not to mention the tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan) without having to deal with the actual horror of those wars.
And much like you're African nation, I had a lot of freedom with equipment! Everything from WWII surplus to the newest of Western equipment turned up in those wars.
But upon reflection I probably could have voiced my concerns a bit more diplomatically. lol
Last month I was putting together a presentation on Papa Doc Duvalier.
One thing that struck me was that if it hadn't been so brutal his time in power would have been farcical.
By fictionalising events we can take the sting out of the tail of these characters and still enjoy a setting.
So by all means, keep founding countries and focusing in the ridiculous! :D
Like I said, it's all good fun in the end.
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It is a thin line between parody and racism and can easily become a case of being 'hoisted by your own petard'. If you did a straight historical setting based on, say, the Congo, or Amin's Uganda, then that is fine. Base your Imagi-Nations on them, perhaps even only so far as changing names and flags and then you're possibly open to being accused of perpetuating stereotypes, depending on how you present it.
I've been there myself, added a few puns on names that I thought were quite clever and funny and then come back to it sometime later and realised how it must have read to someone else. As a result, I'm now more conscious of that aspect and I will just satirise or parody a situation, corporation or prominent leader, but my faceless imaginary inhabitants get somewhat more respect.
Like Rob though, I've found that my knowledge of contemporary-ish African politics has been brought on leaps and bounds, just by looking at real world examples for inspiration. It was the same for me with the work I did on VBCW... I learnt so much more about the real Inter-war period from that, than I otherwise would have done.
:)
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It is a thin line between parody and racism and can easily become a case of being 'hoisted by your own petard'. If you did a straight historical setting based on, say, the Congo, or Amin's Uganda, then that is fine. Base your Imagi-Nations on them, perhaps even only so far as changing names and flags and then you're possibly open to being accused of perpetuating stereotypes, depending on how you present it.
Wise words indeed. The most well known example of this genre, IMO, sadly falls on the wrong side of that divide.
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I don't know, you tell me? >:D
;)
I wouldn't even begin to try and tell anyone what is racist, tasteless, or what is not. We're all supposed to be adult-ish and hopefully we can each work out where the line should be drawn. I know where I stop and that's enough for me. If you ask yourself "Do I mean to be offensive?" and "Is anyone likely to be offended?", and can pass both those checks to your own satisfaction, then you're home clear.
Personally I see nothing wrong with Kongaline, but that doesn't mean someone else won't. Puns are part of the fun, sure, and that what we're all about with Imagi-Nations... hopefully.
I had a tribe called the Hudu, who created an industry selling decorated spent shell casings to tourists. They had plentiful raw materials, due to living in a border region, where their land was constantly fought over by opposing neighbouring tribes. I described them as semi-nomadic, due to their fleeing every time there was a war and returning to find their villages burnt down.
I also had another tribe called the Nom-Nom (named after their war chant), who traditionally had a reputation for being cannibals. After being Christianised, it was a general joke amongst the other tribes, that they only ate human meat on Fridays and it had also had to be well-cooked.
The first example was made up, is generally inoffensive (maybe), perhaps a little tasteless, but could fit a few peoples of Africa, who have had the misfortune of being the 'buffer zone' between two enemies. The second I'd say is possibly offensive/racist, as it perpetuates a stereotype, yet is based on a real people (The Zande)... even down to the war chant.
:?
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I should have been more careful with my comments in case I risk offending anyone. I never meant to suggest that using puns is racist. I merely meant that, in my own games I prefer to keep things 'accurate' (in so far as a fictional setting can be accurate). It's just feels better to me. ;)
I think this is an interesting debate, and one that is worth having, but I am not sure it's what Red Orc intended when he started the thread. I hope no one minds the thread being side-tracked a little.
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I didn't get the impression you meant all Rob... just that some could be, or might be otherwise offensive for a variety of reasons.
If Red Orc does object to the slight divergence, which I doubt he will, I can always split the thread to continue the discussion, but heaven forbid we should have a thread here that doesn't diverge at some point.
:D
I find it interesting too, especially as I'm from the 'Carry On' generation, some of whom still have to be reminded from time to time, that words and phrases which we took for granted and used without thought, might be frowned upon these days.
:)
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Morvalonga's President for Life, Saviour of the Nation, the Legendary, Bishop Moses Besquit announces that The Republic of Morvalonga has its own web pages:
http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Morvalonga/Morvalonga_Intro.htm (http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Morvalonga/Morvalonga_Intro.htm)
Be aware that there are many puns and stereotypes.
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And I will always use puns. My trouble is I use them everywhere!
Agreed and so do I.
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Morvalonga's President for Life, Saviour of the Nation, the Legendary, Bishop Moses Besquit announces that The Republic of Morvalonga has its own web pages:
http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Morvalonga/Morvalonga_Intro.htm (http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/Morvalonga/Morvalonga_Intro.htm)
Be aware that there are many puns and stereotypes.
Cool website
RB
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Really I don't have any objection at all to a discussion about what criteria people use in their games for deciding what is or isn't acceptable - I've participated in many before and I'm sure I will do again.
I think some of Rob's comments in particular are very interesting, because they're almost exactly the opposite of how I approach the background to games, though I can entirely see the reasoning behind them.
I was interested briefly in Spanish Civil War gaming, but quickly realised that actually gaming that period (as I started to think about assembling forces and whatnot) made me feel very uncomfortable. I don't game WWI or WWII, and I realised that my problem was 'fictionalising' real events in the recent past. People are still alive who knew people killed in those wars. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problems with VBCW - that's where my SCW Socialist Militia have ended up - because it isn't 'real', even though paradoxically it has real people in it - one of my militiamen is based on my grandad, who was born in 1912 and therefore would have been in his mid-20s at the time of the Abdication Crisis. I have no problem with that as it's utterly unreal. My grandad wasn't really being shot at by fascists in 1938. On the other hand (again), I've changed some of the 'historic' stuff from the period, 'my' fascists aren't Mosely's BUF, they are either Roderick Spode's 'Blackshorts' and/or a 'British League of Fascists' (mostly from Lancashire and Yorkshire, where the 'Union' is considered too posh and not hard enough).
What's this got to do with ImagiNations? Well, the questions in the beginning were about whether people took background from books and films - such as Matobo (fictionalised Zimbabwe) from 'The Interpreter' and Nambutu (which I'm using as an analogue for Angola) from 'Casino Royale'. I'm happy to lift stuff from books and films to use as analogues (whether that's the Blackshorts for the BUF, Nambutu for Zimbabwe and Ruritania for Bohemia) and then embelish that with other stuff that might be more pun-based (OK, 'British Union of Fascists' to 'British League of Fascists' isn't exactly a pun but it is a joke) and generally less 'real'. But I wouldn't have a murderous dictator in Zimbabwe, it wouldn't feel right to me.
On puns, I think I'm happier punning and making jokes about things that I feel culturally close to. A British officer called Colonel Hammond-Mustard? An aristocratic Englishwoman called Lady Waldeming-Blumers? A Dutch pirate called Django van Dango? A French assassinatrix called Anna-Baptiste and her silent companion Marie-Celeste? Not a problem. But I'm likely to avoid doing that in the context of South America, Africa or South or East Asia. Just don't feel as comfortable taking the micky out of things I know nothing about.
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Well yes, I can understand that. Whatever political violence, oppression, or unsavoury habits that a nation's secret police undertake in an Imagi-Nation, is implied, or presented as comedic background, if it's mentioned at all. I've yet to encounter an Imagi-Nation that's been presented 'straight', with all the things that come with that. We can assume that bad things happen to good people in them, but I've yet to find someone who dwells on that side of things in their fluff. Most gamers create an imaginary setting to play battles in, which is where their attention is focused and not the reality of who and what their regimes actually represent.
I can understand anyone being reluctant to play an historical period of the near past and it's their choice at the end of the day. I don't feel the same way myself, although I don't play anything after around c.1980 (other than sci-fi). That's an aesthetic choice though, not a morale one. On the other hand, a number of WW2 veterans played WW2 wargames (and indeed pushed it as a period back in the day) and a number of serving soldiers play Iraqistan-orientated games as we speak. Regardless though, if it's not for you, then don't do it.
:)
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Oh, sure, I'm not trying even implicitly to criticise anyone else's different choices, as Bezzo says, different strokes for different folks. I know there are large wargaming fraternities in both the British and American militaries, and I'm sure it's the same in many other countries too, and the games they play range from the fantastical to the historical to the ultra-modern.
And I'm happier about playing truly 'historical' games myself - I'd not feel squeamish about the English Civil War, for instance, because it's long enough ago that it doesn't really affect anyone now. But I realised that, for me, anyway, anything 'real' inside living memory is just a bit... icky. I don't mind gaming as Hydra, but I'd certainly feel uncomfortable as the Einsatzgruppen.
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Who wouldn't? *He said, knowing that there are one or two such people out there, who wouldn't mind that actually.* ::)
I've contemplated several alternate histories, where I've wished to 'write out' the really unpleasant bits, even to the point where a fascist axis of France, Poland and Italy have threatened peace in Europe, with a Weimar Germany eventually allied with Britain. Such is the success of Nazi 'brand awareness' though, that inevitable associations would be made, regardless of the fluff written, when you put your panzers on the table.
I like the freedom that Imagi-Nations give, but it's all too easy to 'create' something that is either; little different to an actual particular historic conflict, or so far 'out there' to be utterly ridiculous.
:)
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You both raise very good points and I am beginning to wonder if my 'realist' campaign setting might be a little bit too real for some tastes. I will go back and review what I have written and planed so far, with a view of adding another layer of fiction to further remove Zugando from the bloody and tragic reality of sierra leone. I think I would feel better about it then.
This debate is worth having.
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If it's well enough researched and thought though, I see no reason why the straight version shouldn't work. Actually, I find the 'Carry On' type treatment rather annoying and the steroptypes invariably grate at some point. Too often I can discern some unpleasant underlying assumptions parsed off as schoolboy humour.Almost entirely a matter of personal taste and different people's mileage varies.
I'm not especially squeamish about modernish conflicts although I'll admit there are a number of contemporary conflicts that have little or no appeal as gaming subjects but that is purely a matter of personal taste. I have a nice little collection of contemporary French, perfect for just the sort of thing they are doing In Mali as we speak. I'm not sure I would tackle Mali per se but for quite some time I have been working on a campaign for a French intervention in West Africa, along the lines of but not an entirely faithful recreation of recent events in Cote d'Ivoire. Likewise I have built up a force of US Marines and have plans for a Grenada style affair. Not Grenada but something like it.
I remember reading an excellent article many years ago on the disguised wargame. If I recall correctly it was in Military Modelling or Battle. The author demonstrated that by changing a few key or even a few superficial aspects of an historical campaign, like the period or general geography you could breathe new life into a topic. I liked the concept beacuse even if the players actually discern the original model for the game, they can't be sure that all the elements will follow. They can choose to 'fight the last war' as it were a bit like many contemporary generals but the uncertainty element is in play. Obviously it has its limitations but I think it can be a thought provoking exercise if conducted well.
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I remember reading an excellent article many years ago on the disguised wargame. If I recall correctly it was in Military Modelling or Battle. The author demonstrated that by changing a few key or even a few superficial aspects of an historical campaign, like the period or general geography you could breathe new life into a topic. I liked the concept beacuse even if the players actually discern the original model for the game, they can't be sure that all the elements will follow. They can choose to 'fight the last war' as it were a bit like many contemporary generals but the uncertainty element is in play. Obviously it has its limitations but I think it can be a thought provoking exercise if conducted well.
Brilliant post, Carlos!
In regard to moving the setting, I think the recent version of Coriolanus did that very nicely.
It is a fine example of what you can do with some small changes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsYrGIQnmxo
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I tend not to do Imagi-nations as such.
The Caliphate as I may have said sometime before, is the only 'country' I have made up, but rather that's a coalition of Islamic countries, with a common goal, that follows similar principles to the original Kulifar founded after the Last Prophets death in the 600AD period. Of course it will also suffer from similar divisions that hit it later on, so in effect its a very narrow historical repeat, just with a modern setting and different variations, characters etc.
I have tried to avoid stereotypes with my backgrounds (I removed/changed some of the stuff from my British Civil War background because I thought it was all a bit OTT and silly) but I do try and add some of the culture to it, so the Caliphate involves a lot of varied cultures given the range of peoples involved, they are just united by a single goal; to rid the area of dictators/monarchs and protect the Islamic world from outside meddling.
I try and ensure there is plenty of 'realism' in a sense to the backgrounds of the various forces in my Near Future WW3 scenario. The entire war is meant to be a conflict of Ideologies, and what could potentially happen in the event of a Climate disaster/Ultimate economic collapse in particular areas of the world. All the dark stuff is there, slavery, starvation, genocide, Extremists hell-bent on killing anybody who has a slight difference in opinion. There are no real good guys, no real bad guys. Only thing that calms it all down is I added occasional Alien raids, Rebelling A.I and Zombies.
But I prefer realism anyway. It just makes things seem far more relevant. I'm not keen on wargaming current conflicts, but I like to do What-if Modern wars, and to keep it fairly realistic, it just feels so much better that way. After all there are plenty of wars that could have been, but never happened, thankfully.
I think if you add Stereotypes your walking into ugly territory more than if you did something more realistic. I tend to find people who find the concept of miniature war gaming quite a strange concept, find it more interesting if you base it on a subject that is actually more serious/based in reality (without of course going apeshit about it, because then people think your taking it all waaaaay to seriously). We are messing about with toy soldiers anyhow, like we need to worry about whether the topic sends the wrong message.
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Bezzo I have been called strange and weird my whole life.
Honestly gaming is more then likely one of my more wholesome and "normo" hobbies and obsessions.
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What passes for 'normal' nowadays is often nothing to be proud off... I was going to say 'to make a song and dance out of', but it reminded me of X-Factor for some reason.
Btw... some great posts there guys! :)
As a group, I think wargamers worry far more about the perception of the hobby than the Normos, as a whole, care. My general experience has been that "It's a bit odd" from back in the day, to "Meh" in the present. Which I suspect is largely thanks to a mix of; the D&D generation becoming adults, GW stores on the high street, PC and console games, and numerous 'fanciful' TV shows and movies. Given the openness of today's society, it's not even by far the weirdest pastime about, evidenced by the often heard "Is that all?" and occasionally "So you don't dress up to do it then?" when I've 'come out' of the wargaming closet to prospective partners and friends in the past.
As for Imagi-Nations, some realism is far more preferable to me. I don't mean 'copying' a situation so much (which is fine too), as creating one which is believable in its context. I find the 'black and white' focus of some, to be both suspect and somewhat patronising at times and I much prefer differing shades of grey. I'm sure someone cleverer than me could list a set of tropes and idioms that are commonly used for this sort of thing and might speak volumes about the person constructing the country.
As Carlos said and Brummie has done, you can pretty much take any scenario, or campaign, from the history books and place it in any modern setting. Why we wage war and how we wage war, actually hasn't changed that much over the millenia. Although we have different names for things, we're also still tied to concepts like 'heavy infantry' or 'light cavalry' et al., so any classic battle can be re-fought with modern technology standing in for the original.
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"the D&D generation becoming adults"
Now Jim, you know that is simply not true.
Well OK, their generation might but the actual D&Ders?
:D
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Fair point... lol
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Yeah they do kind of stink. And lets not get started about the card gamers! :D
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Yep, I don't gamble, do drugs, live in a casino or go to the strip if I can help it. lol
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Pity, I was going to invite myself over. It's been more than twenty years since I was last in Las Vegas and rather enjoyed myself the last time.
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Yep, I don't gamble, do drugs, live in a casino or go to the strip if I can help it. lol
lol Sounds like the ultimate form of Spiritual warrior monk training in seeing how long you can resist temptation.
I have actually recieved more flak of being a War studies student than being a Wargamer, and often when I do its because people often have some sort of bone to pick, or a motive, are beyond reason and just out to cause you grief. A lot of them being downright ignorant.
I often post pics of what I'm painting on FB, and I get positive comments, and if I see people the next day, they even ask me about it (most of them women) they find it strangely interesting. Other dudes are the worst ones, the amount of 'but computer gaming so much cheaper' (which is bullshit) or 'but I ain't got the time' or 'I can't be bothered'. Older folks (30s-40s) tend to be far more 'well your wierd' but I think they are the mainstream for the period in which they grew up in. Put it this way, the Uni course I did was codenamed 'Peace studies' about two decades ago, because it was feared it would be seen as 'Pro-War' and get removed, due to the mindset of many leading persons/student movements in the University.
I think nowadays due to computer gaming, and other wierd hobbies, wargaming is seen a lot differently. Its not voilent, it can actually be quite a social experience, you get something out of it, its -different-, and
it can be quite imaginative, and you learn something. As Scurv said its relaxing, and an art form. Doing it doesn't mean your some sort of war junky afterall, its a hobby/game, and having an interest in a form of human interaction that leaves a big impact on our society, culture etc is extremely valid. Ignoring it utterly would just be daft, its one of the reasons we end up with wars in the first place.
We did a course on wargaming in Uni funnily enough, and why people do it, and we effectively came to the conclusion that its just another way of people expressing an interest in human conflict. Everyone effectively does it, just not via that format some do it by physically engaging in violence, others by sports, computer games, mentally screwing peeps over etc.
Of course the key to it all is to make quite clear to everyone that you couldn't give a shit what they think on the matter if they don't want to be civil over it.
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I can't remember which one, but one of the shows back in the 80's was subject to picketing/boycott by some peace group, or CND, or someone. I gather they were a bit disappointed when they found out what we actually did.
lol
Interesting point about 'everyone wargames in their own way' though and I suspect it's probably right. That is however a whole new discussion!
I've said a few times, that if they re-presented gladiatorial combat, in full, it would likely be the most viewed sport on TV/most attended public event. In some respects, we're drifting that way already... 'ultimate fighter', 'cage-fighting' etc. I suspect it would only take a few people to push against the 'moral minority' and we would unfortunately be there. Or maybe I have too little faith in the essential goodness of people.
:?
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I can't remember which one, but one of the shows back in the 80's was subject to picketing/boycott by some peace group, or CND, or someone. I gather they were a bit disappointed when they found out what we actually did.
lol
Interesting point about 'everyone wargames in their own way' though and I suspect it's probably right. That is however a whole new discussion!
I've said a few times, that if they re-presented gladiatorial combat, in full, it would likely be the most viewed sport on TV/most attended public event. In some respects, we're drifting that way already... 'ultimate fighter', 'cage-fighting' etc. I suspect it would only take a few people to push against the 'moral minority' and we would unfortunately be there. Or maybe I have too little faith in the essential goodness of people.
:?
Do I hear a vaguely muffled, yet none the less heartfelt cry for a return of It's a Knockout to the telly?
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I always think footballs a bit childish.I mean, it's fine for kids to kick a ball about in a park, but adults?
I find that a useful counter-argument to any sports fans who think what we do is weird.
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I always think footballs a bit childish.I mean, it's fine for kids to kick a ball about in a park, but adults?
I find that a useful counter-argument to any sports fans who think what we do is weird.
Oh dear. That makes me doubly or maybe thrice times childish. I don't kick a ball around except with my children in the park but I do enjoy watching footy and rugby. Whilst I enjoy wargaming, painting, modelling and most of all researching this sort of stuff it can't come close to the sheer passion and wonderful sense of mass particpation as attending a game. I challenge anyone to say that they get the electric thrill of watching a great match or the sense of being part of larger living organism from attending a wargaming convention. Ok, I suppose there might be someone out there who does but I'd mark them down as really fucking odd. lol
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What is making me laugh harder is wargamers are for the most part very non violent softies when it comes to the real thing.
I don't know, while I'd put myself in that category, I've met a few that believe in the 'noble profession of arms', the 'brotherhood of war' and 'bring back conscription!'... despite having never experienced them, or likely to.
I bet it was a case of some lads mother getting a bee in her bonnet and dragging the rest of the west ham mothers against nuclear weapons along.
It were students iirc, y'know, the 'let's wear home-made looking clothes and not shave our legs' types... there might have been a lesbian or two as well, as a couple of them were quite friendly and approachable, despite the threat we posed to world peace with our hobby.
Do I hear a vaguely muffled, yet none the less heartfelt cry for a return of It's a Knockout to the telly?
Jeux Sans Frontières if you please, it's an international forum after all. I like to think that even the Romans would have drawn the line at that though. I was surprised to find that it was Charles de Gaulle who came up with the original idea for it!
Thanks for causing that Peter Gabriel song to play on endless loop my head btw! >:(
I'm no fan of watching sports either... played this and that over the years and enjoyed it... but sit and watch? Not for me. However wargames shows are something else. Someone's blog reminded me of Harry Pearson's comment on them in his book 'Achtung Schweinehund!' - "There was nothing more guaranteed to put you off wargaming than to go to a wargames show. Yet I was drawn back to them like a salmon to its spawning ground. Or a dog to its own vomit."
;)
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... it would come across as a slightly psychotic rant with far too many swear words.
Thanks, that really helped me put what followed firmly in the 'non-psychotic rant' category and I was able to appreciate it much more. lol
I do get it though, fashion re-hashes are usually led by people who either; have no idea what they are on about, or do, but prefer to do it how they think it should have been, but nobody listened to them back then.
:D
So.... imagi-nations... ;)
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Well my 'Imagi-England' includes Melchester. That's about as close to sport as I get.
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Dont get me started on fucking hipsters either. I just ended up in hipster central and it was too much. If you want to be a rockabilly then for fucks sake sunshine dont get all your pointers from google. Seriously I could of wept. Yeah tight black jeans with folded ends are rockabilly, skinhead too. BUT not I repeat not with red and black striped socks and lounge shoes, and christ on a crutch folded is more than ONE fold. It was like little lord fultenroy meets the B-52's. The worst bit was this hipster doofus actually thought he was cool and all the other wannabe hip people were too fucking dumb to know it wasn't because they didnt have an app on their i-phones to tell them that.
It's almost like they never left secondary school! lol
They are kind of funny to sit back and watch though. When a load of them are together it's like something between a fashion show and a dick measuring contest.
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Your a better man then I Scurv, went to a show last week and it was full of those hipster beatniks. Set me into instant stomp mode so I had to take an out. Also the $10 dollar cover was a big deterrent to me also. 10 dollars are 4 pints and I will be damned if the fat, ugly, hipster chick with the fake glasses at the door is going to drink on my dime. lol
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Are we straying somewhat far from discussion of imaginary countries chaps? ???
I am debating as to whether to use my My Kevlar helmeted middle eastern Elhiem Figures, as some Generic middle eastern country's troops. Or as some South American storm troopers, for some Junta. Ether way my My US troops will be used to stomp them.
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someone really needs to make some guys in modern body armour, kevlar helmets with AK47s. In 28mm.
They could be used for all sorts of conflicts around the world, from Middle East, Africa, South America etc. They would be very useful.
Something like these guys...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img9/2753/ad201010708039932ar.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img820/6852/africanunionmissionfors.jpg)
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Second that suggestion. Actually, if they came with separate weapons or right arms, it would be nice to have a range of options, AKs, Galils, FALs and G-3s. Worth pursuing as a Eureka 100 club suggestion.
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I'm all for multiculturalism and diversity... but Kosta must be forced to concentrate on the 1960 and 70's ranges he's begun.
There, I have spoken!
:-I
;)
I am somewhat bemused that a lot of the photos I usually see of African militaries, show pretty much timeless warriors (i.e. c.1965+), whose only concession to the 21st Century is the K-Pot. A few of the countries that maintain 'intervention forces' have invested in body armour and somewhat more advanced weapons, but the bulk don't have them.
I recall seeing a photo of some South American (Honduran?) troops a while back, who were the spitting image of c.1982 Israelis - right down to their LBE and helmets. Mongrel's Israelis should fit the bill for them.
I would think that any figures with the appropriate paintwork would work as 'Africans'. I usually cringe in anticipation when someone announces that they are doing 'black' soldiers, as usually it's just a case of depicting characterised and exaggerated features (rubbery lips and wide noses - the usual stuff) on the figures (not counting those ranges where all their figures look like that, European or not). They are usually a far cry from Africans I've ever met... who do indeed vary in appearance, both across the continent as a whole and even within the same locale.
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"I recall seeing a photo of some South American (Honduran?) troops a while back, who were the spitting image of c.1982 Israelis - right down to their LBE and helmets. Mongrel's Israelis should fit the bill for them."
Or possibly Guatemalans. During the years of the Carter administration when the US, albeit briefly, developed some moral qualms about arming and training the more unpleasant regimes in Central America, the Israelis took the lead in the region in training and weapons sales. No problem for the Israelis, after all if you were prepared to arm apartheid South Africa up to and including the technology for a nuke, what are a few right wing death squads and a few hundred thousand dead latinos amongst friends?
Guatemala along with Colombia actually still manufactures Galils. Paint the Mongrel Israelis in camo and you can do the Guatemalan army. Perfect for those 'what if' games against Belize. Me? I'm more interested in the 1972 Guatemala/Belize crisis and for that conversion of Artizan's WW2 US army figues seems the way ahead. Actually in addition to Guatemalans and Hondurans, the Mongrel Minis Israelis are perfect for Somoza's National Guard.
Anyone know what model Sherman tank the Guatemalans had? Exhaustive internet searches have failed to elicit an answer.
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Guatemala along with Colombia actually still manufactures Galils. Paint the Mongrel Israelis in camo and you can do the Guatemalan army. Perfect for those 'what if' games against Belize. Me? I'm more interested in the 1972 Guatemala/Belize crisis and for that conversion of Artizan's WW2 US army figues seems the way ahead. Actually in addition to Guatemalans and Hondurans, the Mongrel Minis Israelis are perfect for Somoza's National Guard.
But would they be alright as Guatemalans in the Israeli army? ???
The Mongrel Miniatures Israelis in boonie hats are some lovely figures.
But I'm told they don't look very Israeli! Which is fine, I didn't want to game the Leb anyway.
So I snipped the helmets off their belts and replaced them with M1 steel helmets.
Will do very nicely for Latin America, I should think!
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But would they be alright as Guatemalans in the Israeli army? ???
The Mongrel Miniatures Israelis in boonie hats are some lovely figures.
But I'm told they don't look very Israeli! Which is fine, I didn't want to game the Leb anyway.
So I snipped the helmets off their belts and replaced them with M1 steel helmets.
Will do very nicely for Latin America, I should think!
I suppose it depends on when and where. The Israelis also supplied helmets, so most of the photos you see of Guatemalan and Honduran troops actually using helmets with Israeli kit are wearing Israeli helmets. You might as well get the helmeted versions. Colombia continued to benefit from US assistance and apart from the Galil's (which are now being replaced with newer versions or Tavors) you would be better off using figures with the US Fritz style kevlar helmets.
I think the Peruvians and Chileans also bought a limited number of Galils but only for speial purposes. All the Peruvians I saw were either carrying FALs or AKs. I was quietly amused to see a police vehicle outside their congress building with a RPD machinegun atop it. Chile mostly used and still uses various iterations of SIG rifles, although their marines used G3s.
Funnily enough I was looking at the Hasslefree near future range ( also ex Mongrel I believe) and noted that the rifles look not dissimilar to the more contemporary versions of the SIG family. Shave away the groin guards, cover the silly body armour with pouches and what not and finally swap heads and they might make very useful figures. French SF for starters.
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Oh don't worry, I have a lot of the Eureka French. Two platoons worth plus the associated vehicles. It's just that some of the actual SF types in the French forces use kit other than the FAMAS. In addition to M-4s, HK-416s and the like they also use the SIG 551 and the Hasslefree figures look pretty close. Variety is never a bad thing.
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I would think that any figures with the appropriate paintwork would work as 'Africans'. I usually cringe in anticipation when someone announces that they are doing 'black' soldiers, as usually it's just a case of depicting characterised and exaggerated features (rubbery lips and wide noses - the usual stuff) on the figures (not counting those ranges where all their figures look like that, European or not). They are usually a far cry from Africans I've ever met... who do indeed vary in appearance, both across the continent as a whole and even within the same locale.
This is true but I have seen some good ones. I think the TAG figures are nice, as are teh Perry Miniatures ones.
I had meant, however, that if the sculptor kept things fairly generic, a K-pot clad, AK wielding soldier would be a good thing for lots of settings, be they imagi-nations of historical.
Obviously, the advantage of an Imagi-nation (to get back on topic) is that you can over look minor details which might otherwise annoy a 'true' historic wargamer (ie- oh, I can't use that figure because his boots are laced up the wrong way etc...you know who you are!)
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Useful thing really is with any Third World country (and even to an extent western states), the variety of weaponry and kit available is likely to be huge. Just for instance look at the Iranian army, or even an army we'd consider to be fairly 'advanced'; the Saudis, they have various kit, from K-pots, to old M1 helmets, numerous types of soviet, american body armour, indigenous copies/makes.
Even in advanced armies kit that's supposedly been phased out is still being used, the British army may have turned to this Osprey stuff, but depending on the unit and whats happening, they can often be found with older camo, helmets etc.
So you could use a wide variety of kit from all over the world and incorporate it into the same army, as opposed to one lot of guys being apart of this army and so on.
You could have your more professional units being given all the old Israeli kit, and other less reliable forces, militias, police, second line troops being equipped in a wide array of kit and being armed with all sorts of weapons from across the globe.
Your uber elite types could even look more western and be armed with M4s/M16s etc. Some of the Libyan Government forces fighting during the civil war were armed with G36s.
By today's standards, unless you were doing an exceedingly poor army you could even field 1980s/1990s U.S army types in a lot of countries now, and even have Abram tanks (as they are being exported).
Given how the political landscape is today, you could field all sorts of units, and not need to worry too much about historical inaccuracies simply down to the commonality of gear.
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I like the idea of universal modern infantry, have maybe a sprue with five bodies, arms with just the pistol grip and trigger and a half dozen weapons (AK, M16, generic sniper rifle, generic shotgun, generic SMG, FAL) along with some gear (backpacks, radios etc.).
Include five heads (Kevlar helmet, M1, beret, cap, bald "ad your own hair") that would cover most bases and most times from Weird War Two to Serenity valley (circa 2500). Also if you did arms with just the pistol grip you could add your own guns even though you wold have to file and fit quite a bit it but it would be very versatile.