Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Engel on November 08, 2012, 09:28:34 AM
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I will in this thread start collection my work on the Shaltari, one of the fractions in Dropzone Commander from Hawk wargames
http://www.hawkwargames.com/
First post is the unboxing...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J9tCINXXDDU/UJgaa0sLHsI/AAAAAAAACRo/usu9jC-6vjo/s800/P1040750.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WqrM6qMBKcs/UJgab7rqbLI/AAAAAAAACRs/bGqSqslgzUY/s800/P1040751.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kvjocp4STv0/UJgacu8OLdI/AAAAAAAACR4/Y3fUEdjpEiU/s800/P1040752.JPG)
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Some paper terrain that can be dowloaded for free from their homepage.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2012/10/dropzone-commander-paper-building.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gP8Z8udeFrA/UH-j_Mc6v6I/AAAAAAAACJg/FjDamaWus9c/s800/P1040703.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Qinlgqh4RX0/UH-j_4_W7yI/AAAAAAAACJs/ss64Bve11Ew/s800/P1040704.JPG)
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And here are some Wip pictures on my Shaltari.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2012/11/wip-shaltari.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-i5n0Xz2Ksno/UJt3tlp-0VI/AAAAAAAACTI/uQ0zZuQb_c4/s800/P1040760.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eivIbOEDwhw/UJt3uU0uXRI/AAAAAAAACTM/6_xC7qPFJC0/s800/P1040761.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sWSowBIQFBI/UJt3vHzn64I/AAAAAAAACTU/Bowb2VJK1GI/s800/P1040762.JPG)
Last night I started to experiment with a paint scheme on my Shaltari. The original plan was to try to achieve a look that resembles a deep-sea creature or a jellyfish.
It did not turn out exactly how I had envisioned them but still somewhere close to what I had originally planned.
This is how they look now(under crappy photo light…).
Im not sure how I should continue, but some silver is planned and the flat panels should be given an different color to make them stand out a little, maybe orange or yellow.
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Looks like you got a lot of models there. Good to see this game gets some love!
the paper buildings are also nice, I would suggest edging them so the white paper doesn't show :)
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Thanks.
Yeah, since the photo was taken on the buildings I have edging them with black, looks mutch better. I also inserted an styrophom base inside to add stability to survive handling at the gaming club. :)
Will take pictures of that on the next buildings I build.
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Looks spiffing!
Out of curiosity, how large are the Shaltari Infantry? I mean, in a rough estimate? I think they'd look spiffing for a 15mm project I'm working on :)
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I can take an comparison picture later.
But bare in mind that they are horrible overpriced. :(
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I've done some nosing around on the Hawk site and anyone who is into 15mm I do believe will find a treasure trove of buildings to download there.
I also bought a few of their minis and they are pretty good. Very detailed and cool looking. You may, however, need a bit of greenstuff to fill in the odd hole here or there though.
Looking forward to seeing your project develop Engel. Looks quite promising!
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I can take an comparison picture later.
But bare in mind that they are horrible overpriced. :(
That does seem to be my only objection to them though.
Lovely to see some unpacked though and I'm sure you'll make a good job of them. Have you tried a game with them yet?
Duncan
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Hehe, nopp sorry no game yet.
Ive seen my friends play at the club and the little Ive seen is good.
Im such a sucker for nice looking miniatures.. Buying miniatures at high price for a game I havn´t played. ;D
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I think I found my paintscheme.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2012/11/dropship-commander-shaltari-kukri-aa.html
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kXjclveVoww/UJz6FFEbY8I/AAAAAAAACUo/rKJwnbZz_fg/s800/P1040771.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g0sMr909q_o/UJz6Hht9KcI/AAAAAAAACU4/CFFTzYwIUAg/s800/P1040781.JPG)
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Looks great, how did you get that effect?
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very nice indeed. The irridiscent (sp?) look is fantastic; I've been thinking about using that on several minis in the past, but I've always chickened out so far.
Only by comparing the different pictures and angles is it noticeable that the patterns are fixed; with just one picture to go by, I would have been fooled in believing you used some sort of oily effect paint.
Awesome! 8)
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:-*
Awesome! Off to a good start.
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Engel, knowing your other projects and how well they've turned out, I reckon it's time to do a big board that you can bring (together with Egge) to Galore next year ;)
Look forward how this develops. There's a slight interest for the game here (how it can be fitted in between 40k, Necromunda, BB and Warmahordes is another story) and I hope to be able to get back to this thread in attempts to convince my fellow gamers :)
I assume you got the large battlepack for almost 300 quid? No rulebook?
Edit: This also explains why Egge was whining about being "forced to" play the not-tyranids ;)
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Thanks guys, much appreciated.
Silversixx> So you know Egge, great. We are members of the same gaming club.
With the release of the lates edition of 40k, most of the regular player have start looking elsewhere.
Some have started on warhammer fantasy but Egge and another friend went to Dropzone Commander.
He was hardly forced pick the Scourge as it was he and Stefan that was the first players to order an army. I went with Shaltari because no one had got any of those yet and I wanted to test this paintscheme that I had in mind since before.
I got the middle size army with a neat box from KR http://www.hawkwargames.com/products/premium-shaltari-large-army and an some extra blisters and a rulebook.
Next time you talk you can allways say hi from Eng.
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Well, you know Egge and his constant victimisation of himself lol
Anyhow, I hope you pick up the pace and that you're progress can inspire us other folks to get started with yet another game :)
Look forward to what this thread will bring. I'm not fully into buying stuff for 160 euros yet ;)
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New unit, Tomahawk Grav tanks for my "pearl tribe".
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-miVNS-wAFVQ/UKAEdP7Q1TI/AAAAAAAACWY/tze-4P-1YTo/s800/P1040783.JPG)
I should find a fitting name given to the by the humans.
The humans name the diffrent tribes or give them a code name after human tribes from their past. Im thinking on giving them a name of some tribe famous for diving after pearls, or fishing in coral reefs but Im not sure on what yet.
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very nice indeed. The irridiscent (sp?) look is fantastic; I've been thinking about using that on several minis in the past, but I've always chickened out so far.
It does look rather good doesn't it? Is it irridescent paint or just a considerable amount of talent?
Duncan
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Haha thanks. As its all just regular paint the answer has to be the later... ;)
A tutorial is planed later on.
But painting technice is rather easy.
After a white primer I paint some of the models with blue deluted with lots of water, when that is dry I painted some other places on the model with pink and lots of wather.
After that, purple with water. By mixing lots of water into the color the model allmost paint itself and all those litle details work in my favor instead of painting the details by them self.
The purple was used to try to tie the blue and pink together.
After this I neaded some contrast.
The cannopies was painted black to make a striking contrast to the light model.
The "paddles" was given a warm feeling with yellow followed upp with orange and red with lots of water. I painted those rather irregular to make a sort of vibrant, moving feeling to it. By choosing a warm color here it makes a striking contrast with the rather cold feel of the "pearl hull".
But a better tutorial is planed. I would love to see someone doing the opposite, having a yellow-orange-red hull istead. Or maybe yellow-green-blue. :D
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That really sounds simple for such a striking effect.
Duncan
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Latest units, some gates to teleport units around and onto the battlefield.
Many more pictures on my blog. http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2012/11/dropships-for-dropship-commander.html
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k37MOmRX37c/UKE8OgprcjI/AAAAAAAACX4/3wLkebfa-f4/s800/P1040786.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uS1av4eD3sE/UKE8RvrE5xI/AAAAAAAACYQ/d-yt6BMtvpg/s800/P1040792.JPG)
And my whole colection at the moment.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5qc7F5gZP3k/UKE8XPYpMtI/AAAAAAAACY4/tCr3Hq0CO54/s800/P1040797.JPG)
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I think its about time for a litle update here... lol
Seeing my friends game some Dropzone Commander made me dust off my miniatures and started to work on them.
So... at this moment, this is what I got.
More pictures can be found at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/09/dropzone-commander-shaltari.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/09/dropzone-commander-shaltari.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RYX4RmxqMwI/UjMQbrwEdVI/AAAAAAAAFVA/3aHVaxicAOs/s800/P1000676.JPG)
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Looks like jewelry!
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:o
I really like the effect you achieved. Great looking force!
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Thanks. :)
I just painted or pimped ;) a little terrain piece. Its a small car from some railway kit. Im not sure about the exact scale but it fits into a Dropzone gaming table.
More pictures at http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/09/pimp-das-auto.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/09/pimp-das-auto.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oCoMsRlW6Ts/UjqchNgBlWI/AAAAAAAAFZI/NoN1rHfpBJg/s800/P1000771.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wh6HzyQR9IE/UjqciK7Z2rI/AAAAAAAAFZY/9k57MTstAsA/s800/P1000778.JPG)
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Yesterday my friend Egge and I played a game of Dropzone Commander and here are the picture from it: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/10/dropzone-commander-aar.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2013/10/dropzone-commander-aar.html)
And here are some of them.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Lnu-5Nu9B3c/UlhwdVpc_dI/AAAAAAAAFic/FB_N9KvaEV0/s800/P1000873.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WFsvg_2kcfI/UlhwcofHdsI/AAAAAAAAFiQ/AUWv5druBDY/s800/P1000872.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-scWGFdyGHNM/UlhwfR8sKNI/AAAAAAAAFjA/GluyeC6LSaI/s800/P1000879.JPG)
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Nice AAR. Some of the guys at one of my clubs are starting to play this. Where are the buildings from and what scale are they?
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Nice AAR. Some of the guys at one of my clubs are starting to play this. Where are the buildings from and what scale are they?
I've seen these before. Those are Kato N-scale buildings.
Check out http://www.katousa.com/N/Unitrack/structures.html (http://www.katousa.com/N/Unitrack/structures.html)
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Smacks himself - I keep forgetting DZC is 10mm (ie N scale).
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I thought the club needed some more terrain... so there you go
More pictures at : http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/06/dzc-ruins.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/06/dzc-ruins.html)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ALZz1L6jnz4/U7FUQUpqINI/AAAAAAAAHNI/7280KS2ccNo/s800/P1010895.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5daNPYoUk78/U7FURRM0dSI/AAAAAAAAHNY/D_0Ax3S5FRU/s800/P1010897.JPG)
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Gritty; I like how you did the edges.
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Thanks von Lucky.
I liked the previous ruins so much I continued on its track.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GDMo7683ctU/U7U6DvRyOMI/AAAAAAAAHN8/mB1oGa2_3DM/s800/P1010902.JPG)
This time I used corrugated cardboard for the walls and after assembled the building, added sand and other basing material. I covered it all with a zenith light priming and glued on the paper terrain you can download from the Hawk Wargames site.
All the edges was covered with further sand and paint.
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/dzc-ruin-apartments.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/dzc-ruin-apartments.html)
So now I have a start for a small burned out streetblock.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kkqjD1CcNxw/U7U6GYmzn9I/AAAAAAAAHOk/w50LEP57vCE/s800/P1010909.JPG)
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I will be playing a tournament this weekend and this is what I will be fielding.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SGFpFMAP1Oc/U7XBga0wD-I/AAAAAAAAHPY/fLXlFRTCfxY/s800/P1010912.JPG)
Many more pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/shaltari-army-1500pts.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/shaltari-army-1500pts.html)
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I just started to go through the pictures taken from the gaming convention where I played with my Shaltari in a tournament and started to upload them.
Here are a photodump on some of the pictures taken: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/wexio-spelkonvent-gaming-convention.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/wexio-spelkonvent-gaming-convention.html)
And here is a small sneak peak.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8aY8g_uyjoo/U8Gey_R1BiI/AAAAAAAAHVE/p2ZXSrYISA8/s800/P1010949.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hgv9FdbC6CA/U8Ge3uWip4I/AAAAAAAAHVs/hMCtT7_eQKU/s800/P1010954.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SzPKP8zj4NY/U8GfAk_fwSI/AAAAAAAAHWk/YweyI_JPeP4/s800/P1010962.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-C3WqUN30kNQ/U8GfzRSkX_I/AAAAAAAAHbE/jtGhfx8Vi38/s800/P1010998.JPG)
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Very nice. It's a game I could get into, if just for it achieving visually the balance between Epic and sci-fi skirmish games.
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And here are my pictures from day two.
I managed to get a third place in the tournament with my "pearl-shaltari". :D
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/wexio-spelkonvent-gaming-convention-day.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2014/07/wexio-spelkonvent-gaming-convention-day.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-K9Z3oLiLMbs/U8PX2R8pMHI/AAAAAAAAHc8/T9jphqwjgMQ/s800/P1020008.JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XKNkB5Wescc/U8PX5rE_DBI/AAAAAAAAHdU/xUMlfFt61e4/s800/P1020011.JPG)
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I thought it was about time I actually painted some DzC again....
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/shaltari-reinforcements.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/shaltari-reinforcements.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y76RzekMyeI/VbDeBw8YW_I/AAAAAAAAKdI/D-2_A1gzsIY/s800/P1030721.JPG)
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Beautiful stuff! :-*
I've recently started to paint minis from the game and I love them, yours look great!
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Thanks Suber, please post pictures of them later on.
I made some new ruin terrain pieces.
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/dzc-ruins.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/dzc-ruins.html)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mIlrnzngmps/VbPx3ped-XI/AAAAAAAAKe4/gwZDXyFEprk/s800/P1030732.JPG)
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It was fun to do 10mm terrain so...
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/10mm-terrain.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/10mm-terrain.html)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-578NIvdW1JQ/VbdDhzrGn2I/AAAAAAAAKfo/rb_woT1KOLA/s800/P1030738.JPG)
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I just made a new ruin. :D
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/more-10mm-ruins-for-dropzone-commaner.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/07/more-10mm-ruins-for-dropzone-commaner.html)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--KzounXMSc8/VbtePR6xyYI/AAAAAAAAKgM/jWWzJaJ0Ia8/s800/P1030742.JPG)
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Latest reinforcements consists of four Yari light scout tanks and one Tomahawk main grav tank.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/shaltari-reinforcements.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/shaltari-reinforcements.html)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8yrqLXer3CE/Vb4PZLh8PbI/AAAAAAAAKhI/1jgajm_PvIk/s800/P1030776.JPG)
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Finnished the last layers last night on the Warspire.
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/shaltari-totem-warspire.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/shaltari-totem-warspire.html)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXG2X5xy5F8/Vb4SyNVPIeI/AAAAAAAAKhs/_coCx6UG8WE/s800/P1030781.JPG)
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And I made some new ruins.
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/even-more-sci-fi-ruins.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/08/even-more-sci-fi-ruins.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pdx_mnm7X4M/Vb4UvSpFLEI/AAAAAAAAKik/y44Vwtfx-hM/s800/P1030786.JPG)
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A handful of updates - nice stuff. Love the graffiti.
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Thanks.
This whole Kickstarter thing Hawk Wargames is having has triggered my appetite for all things Dropzone.
Here are newly painted Ocelots.
Many more pictures at:
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/11/shaltari-ocelot-warstrider-dropzone.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/11/shaltari-ocelot-warstrider-dropzone.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SHdDaYT03t0/VjyLUy3fgpI/AAAAAAAALT4/ALux8s4Dqj0/s800/P1040125.JPG)
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I painted some Samurais to my collection. The Ocelots have you seen earlier.
More pictures at: http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/11/shaltari-samurai-dropzone-commander.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2015/11/shaltari-samurai-dropzone-commander.html)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FsLjE64MLYI/VlRGGhVFL1I/AAAAAAAALfk/KMGAmjMFv5g/s800/20151124_115612-1-1600x725.jpg)
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Bump.... :D
Time to dust of those models and actually play a game with them.
Here are a small After action report.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/08/dropzone-commander-aar.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/08/dropzone-commander-aar.html)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HYFXe9whGcw/V7xi7RJEXrI/AAAAAAAAMn0/Z_siOKfq2QgZKDusdOWQyKP6vrn9e4w-QCLcB/s800/P1040602.JPG)
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Great paintjobs again. 8)
And a very nice table too. I like the paper maps Hawk Wargames provides, but nothing tops a 'real' surface.
I see some other interesting items as well in that picture though; Hawk's very pretty Defense Laser and that's one huge box of dice you have there! lol
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Big thanks Daeothar.
Here are two Thunderbird gunships to my force.
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/09/shaltari-thunderbirds.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/09/shaltari-thunderbirds.html)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CrGRL4nyuMk/V8iJSsJngSI/AAAAAAAAMpo/QZWgGW3ZdEw1nRaVzMdsLtaXZLuJaxLnQCLcB/s800/P1040625.JPG)
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Lovely stuff.
Beautifull colours.
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Thanks ´TheVoivod´
Newest unit, some Ronins
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/09/shaltari-ronins.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2016/09/shaltari-ronins.html)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RY0Hy7glFqc/V86gxZ-ytdI/AAAAAAAAMqE/fA9PFfG9hzAZ4TODaGOwHTJXqJYF5--gwCLcB/s800/P1040650.JPG)
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Some very nice miniatures you have here.
I did not realise the Samurais and Ronin were so big.
Only just been looking into this game.How do you find it to play?
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Thanks.
Frankly this is one best game I have played... I like the rules and most of the units seems to have a role to play. There are no unit that is completely useless.
And Hawk Wargames does a tremendous job of tweaking those unit that are to good or to bad. An overall great company that really listen to its players.
My biggest flaws with the game I think is that the scale of 10mm makes it harder for me to really get a feeling for my troops. Its so much easier to get to grip with my characters in a 28mm game. The added art of the later expansion books have done some to redress this feeling of mine.
They have released a set of cardboard terrain that are so popular that almost all players around the globe seems to play on almost the same gaming board. I would love to see more varied gaming tables.
Its not perfect but it is a great game, highly recommended.
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Thanks.
Frankly this is one best game I have played... I like the rules and most of the units seems to have a role to play. There are no unit that is completely useless.
And Hawk Wargames does a tremendous job of tweaking those unit that are to good or to bad. An overall great company that really listen to its players.
My biggest flaws with the game I think is that the scale of 10mm makes it harder for me to really get a feeling for my troops. Its so much easier to get to grip with my characters in a 28mm game. The added art of the later expansion books have done some to redress this feeling of mine.
They have released a set of cardboard terrain that are so popular that almost all players around the globe seems to play on almost the same gaming board. I would love to see more varied gaming tables.
Its not perfect but it is a great game, highly recommended.
I find the emphasis on scenario-driven play (as opposed to just "kill the enemy" mode many games devolve into) really helps encourage maneuvering. The fact that you MUST get your infantry to key spots to win in most battles really helps give everything a defined role and purpose on the tabletop.
OTOH, it doesn't seem to play very well at smaller point values, mostly because one round of bad/good luck can easily wipe out a key branch of your combined arms force and leave you with no way to recover. Larger games leave you with enough reserves to mitigate that, but they also cost a lot of money to get the pieces for.
Like you said, not perfect, but very good and quite innovative.
You equally excited by the spaceship combat version that's coming soon? Pretty sure that one's going to be sucking on my wallet.
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I havnt tried low point games but other then that I can only concur.
Im a very sporadic gamer now a days with two little ones at home but even when I game with the more experienced players at the club I can get something out of the game. Even when I have lost point wise I can get some satisfaction knowing that I took a large chunk of my enemies force out.
I joined the Kickstarter for the Dropfleet Commander so expect a Shaltari fleet to make its aperance here later on...
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Just ordered the starter game.I am so weak ;).
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I pimped my friend Stefans civilian vehicles.
Remember this is 10mm scale. :)
More pictures over at: http://blog.dzcsweden.se/?p=4432 (http://blog.dzcsweden.se/?p=4432)
(http://blog.dzcsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/20161012_131556.jpg)
(http://blog.dzcsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/20161012_131542.jpg)
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Sexy. Really sexy.
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Very cool stuff... the trucks especially :)
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I went in the Dropfleet Commander Kickstarter and have started to produce some Shaltari ships for it.
Here are my fleet at the moment. :D
http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2017/02/dropfleet-commander-shaltari-fleet.html (http://kampgruppe-engel.blogspot.se/2017/02/dropfleet-commander-shaltari-fleet.html)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5flfTLEVvkg/WKBaRXh5THI/AAAAAAAANKE/in9yJ7PoaKkKrVeYaN26X3L9fgoEaM8QQCLcB/s800/P1040962.JPG)
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Interesting color scheme. The green works well with that faint purple. Especially like the green "core" to the Emerald troopship, that makes the saucer section pop a lot better than the rulebook color scheme.
You played with them yet? If so, how are you finding the particle lance ships? There's much doom-and-gloom about them (at least the Jade and Granite classes you built) in the communities I follow, curious to see if anyone else feels better about them.
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Thanks.
I havnt manage to play any games yet so I cant really tell.
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Oh, that's not a Granite anyway, is it? The Obsidian gets more love, thanks mostly to the linked weapons.