Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Abbner Home on March 25, 2013, 05:37:11 PM
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I'm interested in creating a couple of large LotR armies for various men of the west. I don't want to get into a whole GW debate so please take it as given that I'm not going to use the GW branded figs.
Conquest Normans and Fireforge Templars seem to me to be very appropriate Riders of Rohan and Gondorians / client states respectively. But neither plastic set comes with bows. (The Conquest metal archers are great for historical but I want to bulk up with plastic and the aesthetic isn't right IMO.)
For the GW rules (which I will be using) 1/3 of the force with bows is normal and tactically useful. Some I'm looking at a LOT of conversions.
To me the ideal would be a plastic sprue with generic arms holding / drawing a bow which also includes a quiver. Does such a thing exist? Are there affordable metal options out there? What I've seen is a bit fancy and a bit costly for what I'm looking for. I don't need perfect - I don't mind a bit of greenstuff or valejo putting to blend in an imperfect fit. But I don't want to self sculpt at least 200 odd arms and 100 bows and quivers.
Honestly, to me it seems a no-brainer for Conquest or Fireforge to tool up such a sprue. I have to believe a lot of people are having the same thought as me regarding their awesome looking (a least in the pics) plastics. Or am I alone in this?
Any thoughts, suggestions, or opions will be much appreciated.
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I think Griping beast are bringing out unarmoured saxons which I am sure have bow arms (plasticv sprues0
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Wow, this is eerie, just posted on the medieval forum (unusual for me) a query about 15 mm figures for use in large fantasy battles... Not that either I or my friend (the "large figure" type) ever will build a 15 mm army - for completely opposite reasons. Well, my friend might despite his protesting otherwise, he's young and easily distracted. Anyway I was intrigued by the lack of knowledge we both had on that (15 mm) subject so I posted on that forum because we agreed the best start for human fantasy figures is historical figures.
Back on topic - I would have thought there would be lots of inexpensive 25 mm metal figures with bows (peasants/townies being shorter than knights type of "logic" o_o ) that would have filled this need? ??? Shows what you don't know outside of your interests. ::) Even given the specific request I would have thought there would be plenty of 'historical era' figures with bows that would be affordable. No?
Wouldn't the cost of bits and conversion (time is money) bring the price up to equal to buying historical bowmen figures?
Would they have to be the same clothing style exactly? Would your missile figures be separate units or would they be in the same units as non-missile troops? if separate, if they were "close enough - say Saxons as suggested above - wouldn't that suffice and save the labor?
Said the man whose boxed medieval figures are from the very early 1980's...
Gracias,
Glenn
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http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk - there's a few bows available separately, no arms attached though, might come in handy for casualties that dropped their bow.
http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/product.php?productid=364&cat=0&page=7
http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/product.php?productid=329&cat=0&page=6
Perrys have a box of plastic Wars of the Roses bows & bills set, afaik no single sprues (link: http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471 ) though £18.00 for a couple of bows and a pile of un- needed plastic may not be the cheapest/ best option. Some more info and pics of the sprues on the Warlord Games site (http://www.warlordgames.com/store/hail-caesar/war-of-the-roses-1455-1486/dark-ages-wars-of-the-roses-infantry-1455-1487.html).
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If I knew of any historical metal bowmen who fit the bill I'd certianly look at them. The problem is I'm looking for fantasy figs that draw heavily off historical imagery. So where historical figs will represent line warriors (knights and sargents and such) in heavier armor the archers will be much more lightly equiped. But in the fantasy setting the archers are armored just as heavily and tend to mix in with the line troops. (Silly, maybe, but I must confess I really enjoy the way it plays out in the game.) Thus the need for conversion if I want to base my army on the historical figs rather than spring for licensed (and crushingly expensive) fantasy figs.
I can't find sprue pics of the Gripping Beast Saxon Fyrd. But the Theng figs look awesome generally. A few head swaps from that set will really dress up some Riders and leave a nice unit of foot in the bargain.
The WF dark age figs come to 8 bows a box for $20 and leave only passable infantry IMO. If someone's interested in selling me bows and arms they aren't using I'm happy to pay a fair price + shipping.
My unsolicited advice to fig companies working in plastic - throw extra bows on there. Sure it's ahistorical but it harms nothing and it will likely open up a lot of fantasy sales at what I understand is a relatively small cost. I shudder to think how much money I'd have spent with Conquest if their Norman knights included bows.
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My mistake on gripping beast they are slingers. :(
How about this range, spot on, I used to have their goblins and orcs. The dwarves are to die for and very much the avenue you are taking being almost historical
http://www.sgmm.biz/Men_c_70.html
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though £18.00 for a couple of bows and a pile of un- needed plastic may not be the cheapest/ best option.
Actually this is a great find - 'cause it's 30 bows plus I can still piece together a dozen or so pole arm figs I can probably use, if not in LotR in my D&D game. If nothing better comes along (and no one runs with my brilliant idea for a generic bow sprue ;) ) I'll run the numbers on this. One box of these Perry figs is enough for a company of almost 100 figs (at a ratio of 1/3 bows) - time to start doing some cost-per-fig math...
I looked at these at the Perry site but the sprue pic wasn't nearly as good as the one you linked at Warlord - Thanks!
(corrected # of bows per box)
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An ooption for characters perhaps for you
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=1975721457
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An ooption for characters perhaps for you
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=1975721457
Thanks for this - I guess I knew Mithril was still around but I didn't realize their range was so strong. Will be giving them a close look...
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Conquest Normans and Fireforge Templars seem to me to be very appropriate Riders of Rohan and Gondorians / client states respectively. But neither plastic set comes with bows. (The Conquest metal archers are great for historical but I want to bulk up with plastic and the aesthetic isn't right IMO.)
Normans and Templars are strange choices for Rohirrim imo... Rohirrim are actually pretty close to historical Anglo Saxons and everything English before the Norman conquest (with the exeption that they are the better riders...). They even have Old English names and the Uffington White Horse (http://Uffington White Horse) is obviously one of the archetypes for Rohirrim heraldry. The WETA Design is pretty close to what is described in the books, you should stick to something closer to them...
Maybe some Goths or Romano British could give you some fittingcavalry support...
Although the Prof hated the Normans, I would use them (especially the ones with nasal helmets) as armoured Elves or men of Gondor/Numenor. Some of their weapon & armour designs are described really close to Dark Age Normans. Conversion work is recommended in any way...
In general I would use mainly Early Medieval/Dark Age miniatures for a LotR project... Anything High or Late Medieval is too late and too anachronistic to Tolkien's original intentions and (with some very few examples) would disturb the Middle-earth feeling of your forces... GW has travelled this road far too long... (look at all those fiefdoms...) >:(
To give some examples:
All the Fireforge boxes have the typical heater shields of the 13th century... Those are never described in LotR or any other Middle-earth work. Great helmets are too late as well...
The War of the Roses range is great and I would recommend it for any Late Medieval fantasy setting (like Ice&Fire) but I wouldn't use those in a LotR setting without really heavy conversion work... The fashion is clearly 15th century, gothic armour/ plate armour is completely untypical in Middle-earth... Plate is never mentioned in the books and the polearms & bills were actually used in 15th century because they were effective against heavy armoured adversaries... They wouldn't make any sense in Middle-earth, where people tend to wear chainmail and shields (preferrably round or kite)...
Look out for Gripping Beast (Plastics and Metals), Conquest Games (Normans), Musketeer Miniatures "Age of Arthur", Ebob "Dark Ages" (he has some really lovely swan knight helmets as well!), Wargames Factory "Hammer of the Gods" (they have some great Angus McBride Orcs as well...).
There are many great miniatures you could use.
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How about looking at the Late Roman/Arthurian ranges. For a different 'norman 'look - El Cid or late Byzantine.
With all this dark age gaming going on unarmoured figures should be no problem.Best of luck with the sourcing .
Guy T
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I use Wargames Factory pretty heavily for my LotR forces. While some of their early stuff can be a little off, the Hammer of the Gods line Vikings and Normans are fantastic. Their orcs are great too, they have a old school Iron Crown Enterprises look to them.
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If you know of any $2 a fig plastic mounted saxons please let me know! :) Seriously though I very much appreciate the feedback. I think some kit bash combing the GB plastic saxons with the Conquest normans and bows from the Perry medievals is going to get me what I want - 150 Riders for way less than $1000 retail. Plus some fun conversion work.
The left over Perry billmen are for my D&D game, not LotR. Essentially buy using the Perry sprues for the archers I'll be paying about $1 extra for my archers (30 bows for $30)and getting some free town guard for RPGs. Or figs for the kids to practice painting.
For Gondor I think the FF Templars on foot, which from the pics on FB appear to include plenty of open helms, will work. They are heavily armored but it looks to be mostly, if not totally, mail. And I like the cloaks. Again converting archers with some Perry bows (and more billmen cast offs for D&D). I would have missed the heater shield thing but now that I have that tip I can use the kites left over from the Norman Riders of Rohan w Saxon heads (They'll all have rounds which are included.) So thanks especially for that tip. The sargents might serve a similar role but I don't like the broad brimmed helms much. Gondor is my second army anyway so I've got time to sort it out. Which is good as the FF templar foot aren't out yet.
I've quite a large mordor orc force of GW figs supplamented with my precious 1979 ral partha orcs. But when time comes to bulk them up the WF orcs are obviously first in line.
I know I said I didn't want to get into a GW debate... but I sold my GW Riders and Minas Tirith figs years ago when I was struggling a little. Now I'm back on top but I can't bring myself to pay the going rate to replace them even though I could afford it. Weird maybe but such is life.
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Sounds like I a lot of conversion work, but it seems you have given it some serious thoughts!
I'm confident you will get some great results. :)
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Have you ever considered Carolingians as Men of Gondor. Or early Byzantines?
If you want cheap plastic bow arms, you could also try to find second hand plastic bretonians form one of the 1990's warhammer boxes.
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My mistake on gripping beast they are slingers. :(
How about this range, spot on, I used to have their goblins and orcs. The dwarves are to die for and very much the avenue you are taking being almost historical
http://www.sgmm.biz/Men_c_70.html
Has anyone ordered any of the old Vendel fantasy ranges from SMM?
I bought a 9 years war Irish warband from them a few months ago and the miniatures were horribly misshapen, huge mould lines and extra metal that took hours to hack away.
By the looks of it the moulds have lost quite a lot of their detail and definition. Which has put me off re-ordering any of the ranges.
Which is a shame as the I love the Kern/Gallowglas miniatures, two troop types which havent occurred to any other manufacturer to bring to market, and judging by TAG's kickstarter project are unlikely to get made anytime soon :(
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You could try the Black Tree fantasy lines:
http://www.blacktreedesign.com/northamerica/home.php?cat=2309
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Is there an EU supplier for the old Vendel range?
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Amen to that Quendil - I love the Vendel dwarves and wouldn't mind adding to my host, but the whole stateside thing puts me off
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You could always look on ebay for Perry pieces. Not sure if there's much but i've seen some Wargames Factory stuff so maybe you'll get lucky.
I've also seen people mix Conquest infantry with Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory parts, some to make archers.
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Amen to that Quendil - I love the Vendel dwarves and wouldn't mind adding to my host, but the whole stateside thing puts me off
I found the service from SMM to be excellent, it only took 6 or so working days for the minis to arrive, and they sent regular email updates regarding receipt and dispatch of my order.
As I said earlier, my problem was the quality of the casting themselves, at least on the Tudor era Irish figures I bought, they required a lot of hacking and filing to clean up, but turned out ok in the end.
The moulds on fantasy ranges might be in better shape, I can't say for certain.
You can't really see it in this picture, but the gallóglaigh especially required a lot of attention around the hands so that the weapons could be fitted.
(http://my-ennui.com/tudor1.png)
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Problems with the moulds does put me off even though I love the ranges