Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Timbor on April 22, 2013, 07:09:24 PM
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Hi folks,
I am looking into trying out some WFB 3rd edition in my community. First question I had was - was it 3rd edition or 4th edition that was previously known as 'Herohammer' for the overpoweredness of heroes?
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Neither really.
From my experience it was always 5th that was considered HeroHammer.
There was a big problem with the combinations of special weapons you could equip characters with. I remember a game where I had one orc hero kill a unit of High Elf Silver Helms including two characters in a single combat. Very very silly.
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Yeah...I've heard it applied to both 4th and 5th edition....but I never played 5th so can't comment on that.
Welcome to the world of Oldhammer Tim....you should check out this Forum if you head down this rabbit hole: http://bloodforum.treps.net/index.php
Cheers,
Blue
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I don't think it's a matter of a single edition, I think it's a steadily-increasing upward climb. I don't know when it supposedly "started", but surely it's more a matter of finding the era you like most, isn't it?
On that note, isn't this primarily a consequence of the army lists, and not the core rules? There are plenty of crazy-power characters in the current army books, but nothing forces you to use them. Just disallowing the special characters will get you most of the way back to normal, and banning or nerfing a handful of magic items would probably finish the job.
- H8
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Actually thats not the case. It wasn't down to the 'special' or named characters in the army books, it was the problem caused by the silly magic items.
If you didn't take a big hero capable of killing an army, your opponent prob did and then you are stuffed cause youve nothing to take out his big guy.
Rick Priestly did an article in White Dwarf to try to readdress the balance with the magic items but by then most of the damage was done in the eyes of a lot of players. You could just get round it by agreeing certain items were not to be allowed. Yes I'm looking at you Hydra Blade!
Since 5th there hasn't been as big a focus on characters. Now its all about monsters and monstrous cavalry. Most of the really good players I know don't use special characters as they aren't worth their points. Which in of itself is a big issue. The really good players I know are the ones that take the fun out of Warhammer for me. I'm not interested in the current tournament meta or whateva.
Sure you can find players and agree what to take and what not but I'd rather get the nostalgia kick and play some more 3rd.
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On that note, isn't this primarily a consequence of the army lists, and not the core rules?
In the 3rd there really aren't any named characters yet...other than those associated with the regiments of reknown and they weren't the monster characters of future editions.
My preference for the older visions of WFB are based on it stressing a more narrative game with out all the tournament BS...you could have that if you wanted but it wasn't mandatory...as well as a host of special rules/weapon types/and formations that are eliminated from future editions which I feel removed a lot of the character of the game.
Anyway...I digress...
Cheers,
Blue
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Thanks! Looks like there is a bit of interest in my area, so perhaps in the next month or two I can try and get a game going.
Now, in terms of army size, what was the most common points value for a game in 3rd ed? (ex - most common in 8th ed seems to be 2500 pts). Is there a points value where the game tends to break down (either high or low)?
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I was mostly active in 4th, and back then we tended to go for 2000 points. At least at this end of the world. :)
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Yeah 4th was 1500 or 2000, I didn't manage to play much 3rd and the size of our armies then was limited by the number of minis we had. I's take a guessimate at 1500pts for 3rd, but someone in the know may want to correct me.
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Back in the day it always seemed that 3000 point armies were the thing. That does give you quite a big army though. Just before 4th edition came in when GW upped all their prices they did start showing some 500 point armies in WD. As long as you can field units no smaller than 10 infantry or 5 cavalry (in general) everything seemed to work ok from what I remember. Trying to play RoC warbands was never satisfactory though as unit sizes could be just a couple of models and it seemed silly maintaining ranks and files for so few figures (skirmishing would work better there). Amusingly I recall there was a Games Day where someone fielded a 100 strong unit of goblins that was pretty much immobile but pretty effective in melee.
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Yeah...SCL has the right idea. In my recent games I've been gunning for 2000 points...but I'm also not worried about balancing the two forces down to the 1/2 point or anything. I use the points as a guide...not gospel.
You should keep in mind that each turn in 3rd ed will take quite a bit longer than in later editions so if your armies get too big you will be looking at an all day battle...not that is a bad thing IMO.
Cheers,
Blue
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5th edition saw my vampire lord with ring of carstein and the escape magic card when it appeared = impossible to shift.
Plus the heart of woe so when he died the first time, it left a crater.
Fun times!
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5th edition saw my vampire lord with ring of carstein and the escape magic card when it appeared = impossible to shift.
Plus the heart of woe so when he died the first time, it left a crater.
Fun times!
I missed out on all that fun. lol
Back when I played 3rd edition we tended to not bother with magic users or even champions at times just because it was easier to get the hang of the rules without all the other stuff cluttering our tiny minds.
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I missed out on all that fun. lol
Back when I played 3rd edition we tended to not bother with magic users or even champions at times just because it was easier to get the hang of the rules without all the other stuff cluttering our tiny minds.
this is the approach I've been taking with my new gaming recruits....none of which have any warhammer experience. We've had 4 games now and I'm just starting to introduce characters and haven't dipped into magic just yet. Maybe next game. combat can be very complicated when you have to deal with heroes/champions/standard bearers/magic weapons and armor!
Cheers,
Blue
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Well, early interest has generated 6 potential players (including me), pretty sure they all have played later editions of WFB.
Another question - looking at the entries in the armybook, there is a number with the name of troops. For example, on p. 57 for the empire it says 0-20 Reiksguard. Does this mean I can have up to 20 reiksguard models in the army? Unit size is 10-20 models.
Conversely, on the same page, it says 20-60 helblitzen (halberdiers). Does this mean any army must have 20 halberdiers in it? It says unit size is 10-50 models...
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yeah
so for reiksguard you can have one unit of 20, two units of 10, or no units
the 20 helblitzen is the minimum number you must have to be 'legal'
to be honest, back when we played 3rd edition, no-one in our group even dreamed of enforcing the required units
then again, I played a generic chaos army until Slaves was released, which didn't have any minimum troop types requirements iirc
So I wasn't about to get pissy with a mate cause he didn't have his minimum number of scythe armed skellies :)
We tended to take the overall points split (rank and file vs chars etc) a little more seriously though.
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I had a couple other questions:
- must ally contingents have a lvl 20 leader, even if I just have one unit? I want a unit of halfling archers for my empire army, but would prefer not to have to buy a 80 halfling leader.
- for ranged weapons, is it only the front rank that fires their weapons? I can't seem to find anything saying how many models can shoot.
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I had a couple other questions:
- must ally contingents have a lvl 20 leader, even if I just have one unit? I want a unit of halfling archers for my empire army, but would prefer not to have to buy a 80 halfling leader.
If you're going strictly by the army list then yes. It makes sense to have a hero as the allies leader as they're like a small independent army (even if you do only field one unit) attached to your main force. You could always work out a lower level hero if you're not too strict with the lists and want a cheaper character.
- for ranged weapons, is it only the front rank that fires their weapons? I can't seem to find anything saying how many models can shoot.
I think I recall it only being the front rank that can shoot. It is rather silly though I think, especially when pole armed troops in the second (and third) rank can attack in melee. AD&D Battlesystem had first and second ranks being able to shoot and that was much better.
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Agreed...if you are a by the books player then you are supposed to have that big hero...if not then give the unit a leader and be done with it.
For shooting I've been having 1/2 the second rank be able to fire as well for bow and xbow units. For hand guns if they want to fire every turn the. They have to swap
Ranks...so one the front rank each turn. I find missle fire to be quite Ineffective in 3rd...giving a unit a few more shots each turn can make a difference.
Remember it's oldhammer...be flexible...have a GM...and make the game fun for you and your players.
By the way...I wish I was closer I'd love to join such a large oldhammer group!
Cheers,
Blue