Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Other Adventures => Topic started by: Vermis on April 28, 2013, 01:13:40 AM
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The host of one of my gaming groups is a big Malifaux fan and a 'henchman' for Wyrd Miniatures. The rest of us in the group joined in his interest and got our own crews and models, and I think the game does have a neat set of core mechanics.
The problem is, it's the biggest pile of beardy, broken, unbalanced crud.
At least, that's my point of view. Certainly not the same as anyone I've played against. But at the beginning, with the frame of mind that 40K was too weighed down with special character and unit rules, and that simpler was better, the novel's-worth of text in each Malifaux model's rulecard made me a bit suspicious. And while I admit my liking of tactical games outweighs my actual ability with them, I'm not entirely sure that's the only reason I've taken a pasting in every friendly and mini-tourney game I've played, and I'm not totally convinced Malifaux deserves the 'tactical' reputation it has.
Sour grapes? I dunno. Like I say, players around me love it. I played in a small 6-player tourney today and some of the newer guys raved about how hooked they were. But in my first game there, half my crew died in one turn and I couldn't lift a finger to prevent it. This wasn't unusual. At least not for me.
I'm sorry to say this about a game of toy soldiers, but it's starting to drive me nuts. I don't mind losing (not too much) and I've had some good times with other wargames and board games where I lost, but few of them seemed as hopeless and helpless as my games of Malifaux.
I normally use a guild construct crew with C. Hoffman as a master. Contains some big scary things like the guardian and the hunter, which usually die like flies. Things went a little better in a game a few weeks ago (my first draw) and with a couple of new minis and a read of the pullmyfinger wiki I thought I was heading in the right direction.
Then Hoffman, my guardian, and my peacekeeper were charged by Mei-Feng, a rail worker, and a rail golem, respectively. My toughest crew members, with 9-10 wounds each, armour 2 on the constructs, and defence buffs on Hoffman. All three died straight away. That was the game utterly lost before I accomplished anything. Even the smallest objective.
I was told I should've played more cleverly, thought more tactically. Any Malifaux players on LAF, I ask sincerely and expecting an answer: what on earth kind of tactic can I use when melee monsters like Mei-Feng or the rail golem leap across half the board to smack my crew in the face!? What kind of cunning tactical acumen does it take to launch those two in an attack like that?
The golem vs. peacekeeper duel particularly smarts. (though the 5pt rail worker wasting my guardian in single combat comes close) Both 9pt constructs, though one needs to use up resources to stay at it's baseline stats (mine), and one generates it's own resources to add to it's baseline. Bit of a grumpy simplification, but does it seem balanced for the points cost?
Other players see tactics and synergy where I see imbalance and power creep. Whenever I try to play along with tactics and synergy, it gets snuffed out with barely any effort by some card-heavy murder-beast. What do you think of the game? Am I way off the mark? I'd honestly like to be convinced of that, and told where I'm going wrong.
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Don't know about the game,the cards look bloody fiddly,I toss them out and use my own rules or others :) I buy Malifaux for the figures :D
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I loved it at first, the figures, the art, the fluff and the atmosphere; all was perfect. Really enjoyed the game. Then they started bringing out tons of new stuff every month, and it was getting more Steampunky. Then they switched to some horrific plastic and began using 3D sculpting, which brings about the cartoony, smooth and characterless sculpts we see from Games Workshop etc. So I sold all my Malifaux stuff and lamented its destruction. Those who love it though, love it fanatically still.
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I'm the same as Gibby, I really liked it TO BEGIN WITH - but like Vermis (I didn't however get so readily slaughtered, I found it easy to beat other people) I saw the "flaws" in the Game.
Winning too easily is the same as losing too often for me, so I lost interest quite quickly and sold up.
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Guild are, arguably, the worst faction in Malifaux. They are slow in a movement is king game, and the high stone models don't really hold up against other high stone models from other factions, though I haven't read the newest book where this is supposed to be turning around. It also, to me at least, has the same issue with most combo based games: You have to learn everything about everyone to get over that beginner lump. The interaction chains are what makes or breaks each side. Dealing with those chains means you have to know where on that chain is the weak link, which may not be readily apparent.
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I have the same feeling. I'm playing in a local community which has friendly gamers, great atmosphere and a lot of enthusiasm, but somehow this just can't distract me from the fact that a lot of models, particluar the "older" ones from the first book, are horribly outmatched by the newer models. Especially some of the new Ten Thunders models are a showcase example of newer models just getting better than older models. I've played against Mai Feng, and also a crew of the new ghosts from book 4 - Mai Feng I can live with, but the spirits from the newest book are just ridiculously overpowered compared to the other models. As has been mentioned, Malifaux is broken in the way that one particluar element of the game, movement, is the king that wins or loses a game. I play Von Schill as a master with a freikorps/outcast crew, and my tactics are usually centered around the ultra mobile Von Schill as the main element, with other models in support roles. It just doesn't make sense to play up any other element than mobility in Malifaux.
What really made the cup overflow for me was the Avatars. For 2SS you get a new master so extremely much better than the original that no non-avatar master stand a chance against it. Some of the people I play with insist that Avatars are "different, no better", but given the number of games I've seen won easily by avatar masters I'll have to disagree. The Viktorias and Pandora might be the worst examples.
If you want to keep playing without getting too frustrated by constant losses I'd recommend another faction. As has been said The Guild might be the weakest faction at the moment. This has been somehow remedied in the new book, but sadly only by giving The Guild some new models that are even more overpowered than the other factions' models. It is a patchwork solution, and one that doesn't remove the undelrying problems of the game.
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I have enough Malifaux minis for a small team, but essentially they're doubling for other games with little use in their original purpose. I've only played a game or two against another beginner so no particularly hard feelings concerning my track record.
The primary problem is the whole nature of these games. It already happened with Warmachine. Initially I thought it would be fun to pick up some steampunk stuff and then...um...play games. Unfortunately, 95 times out of 100 when I hear people discussing these games, it goes like "If I take caster_x and combine it with this, this and this, I get flight, 3+ save and thirty seven attacks at strength twenty" and so on. Or ranting about the previously mentioned combo. There's at least a whole week of metagaming and list tweaking, whereafter the game looks like this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/1/24/). Nowadays when I spot signs of this, I just gently moonwalk away.
I don't have the time for that. Or put another way, I prefer spending my hobby time on building and painting actual stuff which lasts and looks good to everyone. There was a time when I had fun memorising zillions of special rules and fiddling with options, but those days are gone. In hindsight, it didn't feel like an accomplishment, and after a few new releases my knowledge was completely outdated. It wasn't even that fun to win games by announcing a killer combo and an obscure special rule from a minor publication. (OK, maybe it was but not any more.) It's selfish pleasure, which may only bring enjoyment to an opponent who's looking for exactly the same challenge. Painting and terrain often become the first casualties. They don't give you five extra attacks thus they have the lowest priority.
However, I understand that these games have their place, because:
1) The special rule, unit combo and character variant merry-go-round provides a solid revenue model.
2) There's genuine request for them by people who like winning toy soldier games with certain skills. (You decide whether they count as tactics.)
But if a wall of text is telling me what my super boss can do, and then I'm supposed to buy the best combo troops (even if I don't like the models), I think the game is playing me, not the other way around.
Let's face it. That's how character-based games must work if the company wants to maintain a solid business model. Play them if you enjoy them, but don't expect much improvement. It's better to churn out new stuff broken in new ways rather than to create a stable environment. For example, Blood Bowl was a great game which got effectively retired because you could complete a team with <20 models and then just keep playing without any new purchases. It's nice but it doesn't generate enough revenue.
Ramble over. I don't know if it helped but thank you anyway for your time if you finished this.
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When the rules require endless "combos" to make models truly effective, thats just clever marketing :D
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Yeah, I know for my Gremlins, I have ended up buying several 'combos'. lol
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I loved it at first, the figures, the art, the fluff and the atmosphere; all was perfect. Really enjoyed the game. Then they started bringing out tons of new stuff every month, and it was getting more Steampunky. Then they switched to some horrific plastic and began using 3D sculpting, which brings about the cartoony, smooth and characterless sculpts we see from Games Workshop etc. So I sold all my Malifaux stuff and lamented its destruction. Those who love it though, love it fanatically still.
Exactly the same as me, except I kept one faction (Arcanists) so that I could keep my hand in the game.
What Malifaux needs at the moment is a 2.0 revision to come out and tidy it up more than anything. But that'll not happen as Wyrd are on a crazed "we must release one expansion book each Gencon" yearly update thing - which obviously works for them.
Even the biggest players I know are getting a bit left behind by the updates now. Well, except one.
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Thanks everyone. Comforting to know I'm not entirely incompetent and crazy.
I knew about Malifaux combos and wasn't too happy with them. Too much - as the Lardies say - playing the rules, rather then the game or the 'period'. I tried to weather through my opponents' combos on the table, or pay lip service to that mechanic (tried the 'protect' chain on my constructs) but nothing doing.
I'm not altogether happy about buying the latest or different toys to run the Red Queen's race (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race), either. I suspected it after the few times I faced the new Ten Thunders crews, but - same as the combos - thought I could take a few hits on the chin and learn to box clever, stick with one small crew and learn their ins and outs. Looking increasingly unlikely now.
'Movement is king': I get that too! My crew does have a couple of advantages like 'drawn to metal' and 'overprotective', but it's still based on a walk 3 no charge Hoffman who has to be ferried about by that 'drawn to metal' ability, usually by the guardian which is no Mo Farah itself. (Imagine how fast he goes when, like I say, the guardian gets taken out in one attack, early in the game.)
They just can't compete when Mei-Feng does her rail-walking thing (non-Malifaux players: not kidding about leaping across half a table), or when you find out the rail golem can walk and charge in one turn. (nasty surprise last Saturday. "Oh, but once he does that he can't do it again for a while!" Comforting when it's already wiped out a hefty chunk of your crew thanks to it) In the second game I lasted a bit longer, thanks to the player taking pity on me (great feeling :-[ ) and leaving the rail golem aside, but still lost the game because the rail workers and Mei-Feng bounced across the table and grabbed all the objectives first.
I also watched part of another game where whatsisface - the neverborn puppet master - killed Mei-Feng because he could pull all his puppets in sharpish to crowd her. I didn't fancy facing that crew, simply because of that movement advantage.
I didn't mean to add so much (more) bitter grumbling to this post, but that's the way I feel about the game right now. And if there's one message I want to convey with all of it, it's this:
I hate Mei-Feng.
;)
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What Malifaux needs at the moment is a 2.0 revision to come out and tidy it up more than anything. But that'll not happen as Wyrd are on a crazed "we must release one expansion book each Gencon" yearly update thing - which obviously works for them.
This, I've been painting, not playing on the wait for v2.
I do believe its more down to the momentum that Malifaux is getting right now, more then the expansion every year as to why 2.0 won't be soon though. I expect that if they are smart, we'll see a v2.0 when interest starts to die off a bit.
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Not a Hoffman expert, but he has some tricks against the crew you described:
He can copy protect from the guardian (and so can the mobile toolkit iirc) so you can create a chain, putting the wounds on whichever model you want, spreading them around the whole crew.
Override edict will let him control the rail golem for an activation. See how Mei likes getting smacked in the face with an iron girder!
Pick your schemes carefully: I like to keep a watcher out of harm's way for most of the game (use defensive stance when necessary) then fly into the enemy deployment zone last turn to get breakthrough.
Not a fan of the hunter myself. Thing is way to fragile. Keep it in base contact with Hoffman to increase the power of open circuit? Don't think that spell effects constructs though...
Mei needs specific suits to get her triggers off and do her crazy tricks, so with a bad hand she's screwed. Making the Mei player cheat cards in defence means you'll be reducing her chances of pulling off the big moves to hurt you.
Killing off her construct railwalking points will hamper her movement.
Hope some of this will help! :)
Regards
Ian
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Ta Ian! A couple of points, though...
He can copy protect from the guardian (and so can the mobile toolkit iirc) so you can create a chain, putting the wounds on whichever model you want, spreading them around the whole crew.
I tried to weather through my opponents' combos on the table, or pay lip service to that mechanic (tried the 'protect' chain on my constructs) but nothing doing.
That was my fancy new trick for the tourney. Guardian > Hoffman > toolkit > hunter. I agree that the hunter is fragile - I'd begun to leave it out of games because of that - and hoped the protect chain would help it last longer. Problem is, the guardian, the wound reservoir at the end, with all it's defences and buffs, has almost as much trouble hanging onto it's own wounds. It's like Vectorman falling to bits over and over again:
http://m.youtube.com/index?tab=w1&gl=GB&desktop_uri=%2F%3Fgl%3DGB%26tab%3Dw1#/watch?v=4Z0ovx_-Rpw
What's more, at the end of the day I was given the 'tip' that I was wasting my time casting protect on the hunter when I should run it towards objectives straight away. A strategy that usually ends with it getting jumped on and 'vectormanned'.
Override edict will let him control the rail golem for an activation. See how Mei likes getting smacked in the face with an iron girder!
Did that in the game, right after it stepped on my peacekeeper! Result: no damage whatsoever. She did have to burn up some cards and a soulstone or two, but it didn't stop her from leaping at Hoffman just after, with a red-joker dragon-kick to the face. Overall I couldn't believe the amount of cheats, positive twists and triggers my opponent was getting off in the games. More than my crew. Closest I came was when I thought I got the guardian's df trigger, only to have it cheated away.
I had a watcher in the box set but gave it away because I thought the mini was too ugly! I meant to convert my own proxy but never got around to it. I might hurry it along.
Also, the better game I had a couple of weeks ago was partly down the the fact that I finally read the open circuit spell correctly! For ages I thought nearby constructs suffered extra damage, rather than providing it. ;D
I have a feeling that if I carry on, I might have to (gag) buy another mini or two, get a bit more firepower in the crew to see if I can pick off rail workers at range. Ryle, maybe. I have Rusty Alice, but her gun doesn't seem overly effective.
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I'm also a Henchman for Wyrd. I think that the rules could use some cleaning up, there are a few language issues that could be fixed to make it make more sense.
With that said, I love the game all in all. I don't think it's broken, I think it's complex, though not overly so (with the needed language adjustments being a separate issue to me), it just balances differently from most games. I play Guild almost exclusively, and have not ever found them to be under strength.
Malifaux is much more of a resource management game than most miniatures games. As you learn to use those resources (your control hand, soulstones, miniature's abilities, and even activations) you become a better player over all. This is what I think really sets the good players off from the really good players, or even helps me hang a little better with the people that beat me consistently.
What the players that are far better than I tell me is that about half of your crew you have "pre-selected" for your Master, about a quarter is to accomplish your goals, and about a quarter to counter your opponent's goals. With the ability to select crews after terrain set up and Strategy determination you have much more control over who you bring to the table, which not everyone likes. I personally love that about the game, though I tend to stick to the Ortegas with a model or two switched out depending on the game. It's definitely not a game for someone that wants to buy one set of miniatures and create a list with those that never changes.
I also really like their plastics, with one exception (Lazarus). The Guild Riflemen really show what can be done to make the material shine. I don't know that I've seen many miniatures that have more depth without having a super cartoony level of detail (such as GW, who admittedly makes beautiful plastics to my mind, just in their very specific style).
As far as Wyrd pushing out a book a year, I think they've done pretty well with them. I don't think it's too much, even with a crazy school and gaming schedule (there to keep me from going crazier with school) I'm able to remain competent enough to continue playing the game without feeling overwhelmed. I think that they're working toward a a V2 rules set, although I do not know for sure. They're really good about not having knee-jerk reactions to needed changes that end up making the game worse, and I'd rather they take their time and do this right rather than push something out that doesn't really work for what we the community feel is needed. I think that the model cards helps that information curve, even if it's printed from a pdf online. I think they're consistently getting better both as game designers and a company, so I give them some more latitude than some others will.
I have to say, I love the card mechanic of the game. I'm at the point where when I play a rare 40K game, or a lot of board games and I roll dice (or a die) I look at it and think "Well, eff this, I have no recourse. I can't affect them, why am I doing this??".
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Yeah, it's kind of sad that the best use I've found for the hunter is it leaves 3 scrap counters when it dies! :)
Keeping the chat aligned to facing Mei, maybe throw the hunter into her crew to waste their ap killing it, then blow up the scrap counters for the blast damage?
Or use the harpoons on peacekeeper and hunter to pull Mei into open circuit range? with enough constructs in base contact that spell can be nasty. Then hit her with the entire crew. Always use the shield to hit with the guardian as it does 1dg when it misses.
Tbh, I suck with the guardian. I always end up moving away from him too fast for him to catch up and be useful.
New models: if I take Ryle, I also bring along a living model so he gets a free push to get himself into position to shoot. Usually I take a death Marshall, but against Mei I'd try a witchling for the anti casting aura he puts up. Then if she kills him, he blows up for 2dg.
Wardens look handy for the slow/paralysed shenanigans, but haven't tried them, since they are expensive money-wise. :(
It's also an option to ignore the opposition crew as much as possible and focus on the strategy/schemes. Hoffman will probably struggle with any scenario that involves being in more than one place at once, but that's why there are 4 other masters in the faction (5 including Lucius). This design aspect is both a blessing and a curse. Personally I love it, but I can see that it can be a barrier to new or more lukewarm players. I'm both a henchman and a Malifaux podcaster, so I'm obviously fairly invested in the game. Primarily a Sonnia player, but Hoffman is my go-to guy for claim jump!
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I have a feeling that if I carry on, I might have to (gag) buy another mini or two, get a bit more firepower in the crew to see if I can pick off rail workers at range. Ryle, maybe. I have Rusty Alice, but her gun doesn't seem overly effective.
Convict Gunslinger or the ubiquitous Nino are good for long range in Guild.
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Well, Malifaux 2nd ed has just been announced as going to pre-order in August...
Release in October, very long wait there!!! :(
I hope it's worth it, Ihave dropped quite a lot of money on malifaux, but I have faith! At least they are making Gremlins their own faction now!!! :D
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Well, Malifaux 2nd ed has just been announced as going to pre-order in August...
Release in October, very long wait there!!! :(
I hope it's worth it, Ihave dropped quite a lot of money on malifaux, but I have faith! At least they are making Gremlins their own faction now!!! :D
If it's anything like their other pre-order stuff it means you'll be able to order it at GenCon, receive it some time that month, and then it goes into general sale in October.
In the meantime we'll be able to do open beta testing, which I'm really excited about.
All in all I think it's going to be a good thing. They've learned pretty quickly, and if this last book is any indication I think 2.0 will be pretty awesome.
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I wonder how they are going to deal with updated cards for people who have already bought crews? Faction card packs?
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Hah! Was going to stop by and say my prediction was way off! Looks like I was beaten to it.
I imagine that it will be faction card packs. Though they may do a card swap program like they did when they revised them a while back.
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Our interview with designers Justin Gibbs and Mack Martin: http://theaethervox.com/
There are similar interviews in most of the Malifaux podcasts if you don't like the sound of our voices! :)
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Saw that right now on "Brückenkopf Online", check it out ;)
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=80880
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Though they may do a card swap program like they did when they revised them a while back.
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That was an awful, awful disaster for them. Nathan pointed out that if they can avoid it at all they'll never do that again.
My bet is faction packs or pdf's online. They've talking about faction packs in the past, so, that may end up being it.
My only fear is that the game will get dumbed down. I don't THINK it will happen, it's just in the back of my head.
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That was an awful, awful disaster for them. Nathan pointed out that if they can avoid it at all they'll never do that again.
My bet is faction packs or pdf's online. They've talking about faction packs in the past, so, that may end up being it.
My only fear is that the game will get dumbed down. I don't THINK it will happen, it's just in the back of my head.
Never heard that the card swap program was a disaster, but didn't take them up on it so didn't pay a ton of attention to it. Any reason why it was a disaster?
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I think it was just a nightmare for them in terms of man hours and logistics.
2nd ed. faction decks will be for sale for anyone wanting to update existing models. New models will obviously be released with the correct cards.
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Never heard that the card swap program was a disaster, but didn't take them up on it so didn't pay a ton of attention to it. Any reason why it was a disaster?
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mistercactus hit it in one. My understanding is that it tied the warehouse up for quite a while. From community feedback from the time it seemed that it was a bit of a pain there as well. It seems (and I obviously cannot speak for the company here, and none of this is coming from privileged information, just my own perceptions) that it was decided to explore other avenues, such as continuing to put the new card versions up for free online.
The community has mentioned the use of faction packs or the like, and Wyrd has been shockingly good at following these kinds of suggestions. I imagine that will be where they go, though I could definitely be wrong.
I'm excited about getting a cleaner set of rules. I never thought the first set was unplayable, or broken, it was just a bit rough digging through things at times. I'm also really glad they didn't do this as a knee jerk reaction giving us a V2 that was even more problematic. I think it's that calm analysis of situations like this that has built so much credibility for Wyrd with me.
Anyway, long winded and somewhat tangential, so, my apologies!
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Listening to the Aethervox interview, it sounds interesting. Doesn't look like it will be 'dumbed down' at all. Crew sizes about the same. I am a bit sad to hear that the different avatar manifestation criteria will go away. It also sounds like going avatar may be required, though I may have heard it wrong.
The ability cards sounds look a good idea in the long run. Being able to easily add abilities in later to models now I quite like for long term viability.
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Well, Malifaux 2nd ed has just been announced as going to pre-order in August...
Release in October, very long wait there!!! :(
I hope it's worth it, Ihave dropped quite a lot of money on malifaux, but I have faith! At least they are making Gremlins their own faction now!!! :D
Yes but it will be up against the soon to be released Brokeback Mordheim.
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I've been getting snippets of info from my henchman friend too, so I'm feeling better about Malifaux 2. Apprehensive, but better.
Also, feeling a bit better about the current edition, after a few days 'recovery'. ;D At the mo I wish my ancient hand-me-down pc could run vassal, for a few practise games between the one every 2-3 weeks...
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Just picked-up the 1.5 rule book today and my first miniature Toshiro the Daimyo.Got more miniatures on order and the new book too.
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Loved the game initially, picked it up when it was quite new and before it had any expansions. At that point it was a quite fun game and had enough stuff to keep track off. Then Rising Powers came, I bought the book and started tinkering with another crew but at that point the whole concept was starting to fall apart imo.
There was a frustrating and impossible amount of information to keep track off, you had to memorize what you own miniatures which now had 3-5 different skills and traits could do, and then keep track of what every enemy miniature could do - and still it was near impossible to predict half of what was going on due to endless combos which just wore me out. The game stopped being fun, and the errata was shaping up into a book of its own, to keep the game playable you had to hang around the Wyrd forum and keep downloading FAQ/Errata documents.
More new releases, endless streams of new abilities, breaking the previous stuff without rebalancing. I highly doubt that even a fraction of what is released is anywhere near balanced as the game is very advanced and has a ton of modifiers, skills, traits, abilities, conditions that create endless combinations and are bound to give birth to anomalies on the gaming table that the beta testers didn't foresee or catch before the release.
I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Now the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.
Stopped playing it, use my few Malifaux models that I have for other games instead. Not excited about version 2, don't think version 2 will fix many of the problems that derive from the units themselves more than the actual rules. The chance of me buying version 2 is zero.
A good product and idea was completely mismanaged and lost along the way imo :?
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I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Not the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.
This is what did it for me. I loved the creepiness and slightly quirky style of the setting, but as releases flew out it became more and more silly, with no holds barred on what the universe was about. It started to have a more sci-fi look to it. Bleh.
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Also bear in mind that some aspects of the game- killer combos, glass cannons that frontload ridiculous amounts of type-specific damage (i.e., combo X being an ideal blindside for figures that do Y, etc.)- are very likely going to remain, simply because they're the bread & butter of the type of game it is.
Clearly,this is an intentional design decision.
Malifaux, Warmahordes and the like are structurally more akin to CCGs, when you think about it- much more "Magic: the Gathering, with miniatures" than a wargame with unit cards."
Note that, when I say that, I'm referring to the play experience, i.e., game approach, army design, mechanics, and just how you plan out your actions and games, rather than the "buy 400 boosters and hope to randomly get a tournamment legal ultrarare Plague Chipmunk" side of Magic, etc. As a result, they're not really tactical games- things tend to be decided more by the metagame, rather than by careful tactics and battlefield doctrine.
Also bear in mind that, while it's not a style of game I personally care for (be it cards or miniatures), I'm also not passing judgement and saying it's good or bad, more or less valid, etc.- just that they're not the same kind of game you may be used to.
If it's the play style and game approach that appeals to you, then knock yourself out- our hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable, and it's no more or less relevant than any other form, be it boardgame or Grognard bel Grande!
That's my dos pesos, at least.
- Monk
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Loved the game initially, picked it up when it was quite new and before it had any expansions. At that point it was a quite fun game and had enough stuff to keep track off. Then Rising Powers came, I bought the book and started tinkering with another crew but at that point the whole concept was starting to fall apart imo.
There was a frustrating and impossible amount of information to keep track off, you had to memorize what you own miniatures which now had 3-5 different skills and traits could do, and then keep track of what every enemy miniature could do - and still it was near impossible to predict half of what was going on due to endless combos which just wore me out. The game stopped being fun, and the errata was shaping up into a book of its own, to keep the game playable you had to hang around the Wyrd forum and keep downloading FAQ/Errata documents.
More new releases, endless streams of new abilities, breaking the previous stuff without rebalancing. I highly doubt that even a fraction of what is released is anywhere near balanced as the game is very advanced and has a ton of modifiers, skills, traits, abilities, conditions that create endless combinations and are bound to give birth to anomalies on the gaming table that the beta testers didn't foresee or catch before the release.
I also feel that while the initial game had a nice theme, it was a mix of Steampunk, Horror and Western, it became more and more diluted to my distaste. Now the theme of the game is "anything goes" and I just can't be bothered anymore.
Stopped playing it, use my few Malifaux models that I have for other games instead. Not excited about version 2, don't think version 2 will fix many of the problems that derive from the units themselves more than the actual rules. The chance of me buying version 2 is zero.
A good product and idea was completely mismanaged and lost along the way imo :?
Agree 100%.
I loved the game when it first came out. I had about 10 crews amounting to about 10 figures and I was a Henchman. As you say it had a great theme. It was quirky and a little twisted (in a good way). When Rising Powers came out I wasn't impressed and slowly lost interest. It seemed to me that the fun and quirkiness was being leeched out of the game in preference for figure sales and over the top meta gaming.
The original Masters each had great personalities which really added to the game. This went out the window and was replaced by masters with bigger and better abilities and, what seemed to me, very forced and unconvincing background fluff which came second to the new abilities. Some of the new stuff in Rising Powers still had that original feel but it was suppressed by the meta game element.
What was a nice quirky, strange, visually pleasing and, admittedly, not perfect game became a marketing monster and left me cold.
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A further moan.
So Malifaux 2nd edition is out. Some guys from one of my regular groups brought copies of the rulebook for gaming tonight. Beforehand there was some effort to persuade me it had been streamlined and balanced, and maybe it has, but not a lot in my eyes.
I pulled out an ancient, dusty Ramos mini for tonight, 'cos I'd also been rabbitted at that "Ramos is really good now". Again, maybe, but that didn't stop him and his crew getting clobbered - by turn five I had no minis on the table while my opponent had all his, giving him a full free turn to clobber me on points, too. Might have had something to do with the fact that I had a crewful of armoured constructs (with the minis I have, I can field a Hoffman construct crew or a Ramos construct crew) and he had a crewful of killer minis that could ignore armour and deal extra blows on constructs. Okay, I know you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, but it's a bit tricky when all you have is Henckles rather than Hecklers; and to me it shows that the game is still reliant on the listbuilding metagame, deadly special rules, and the offputting "gotta catch 'em all" marketing mentality. I can't focus on and use the minis and themes I want, rather than picking and slotting new masters and crews for each game from a growing and expensive collection. No good.
It was reinforced by another thing from the new release: a plastic box set containing a large monster and some kind of 'wretches', among others (can't find 'em online) that was going onto ebay. I liked the look of the wretches for other potential projects and wondered if I could get in before the were auctioned off. But no, the minis were staying with the box set, and the only way to get them is as part of that $80 box.
Strewth.
(Then there was the 'ladies for hire' box, or something. In every one of 'em the shins alone were longer than the entire torso and head together. They're like mutants.)
Tonight I was motivated by Malifaux - motivated to pull together something like a couple of Ronin buntai to wave about, see if it could distract from the former game a tad. Might already be too late - two of the guys were also trying out Bushido, which from the minis seen online and the one card glanced at tonight (full of stats, arcane symbols, and special rules; and that was just for one peasant) looks almost like Malifaux: Japan Edition. (Or Warsamur 1.6K) I overheard one of the big Malifaux fans in the group say "I can see the tactical depth" and I could almost feel my heart drop. If it's 'tactical' in the Malifaux sense I can almost guarantee I won't like it, and it could be a wrench to get them onto something more 'boring historical' like Ronin. (If there's going to be a myth & folklore supplement for the latter, it can't come too soon IMO!)
Note to Bushido fans: happy to be proven wrong, BTW!
At this point it's even making me have doubts about the future of my personal hobby. I don't know if I can keep making trips up to Belfast if every 4 out of 5 games is one like blackboard-nails in miniature form to me, and I don't think it's fair to make everyone else play something else whenever I turn up. (Not unless it's something they want to play) Mini gaming is practically dead up there otherwise. (Unless you count the GW shop, which I don't)
Makes me appreciate the gaming at the Omagh club even more, though that's hanging on by four threads. If the worst happens there, I'm borked!
That went a bit off-topic and weird. It helps, though. Can't whine about my first-world problems on twitter etc. ;D
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Not looked at the new edition yet but to be honest, it sounds more that there is an issue with your opponent than the game. Getting someone to try a game and then taking a list designed to devastate the force you know they're going to use is just a wanky thing to do.
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Thing is, he's not the Wyrd henchman or uberfan badgering me to have a go. He's a little like me in that he's not completely taken with it (though still a lot more enthusiastic than me) and wants to concentrate on one or two masters and crews. It's largely bad luck that his crew consisted of Von Schill, Bishop, Taelor and a bunch of ronin, while mine had Ramos, Howard Langstrom, a metal gamin and three arachnids. Again, the near-random pairing of our two crews, skewed to such a strong 'rock paper scissors' relationship (even Howard was cut to ribbons), makes me wonder about the basic balance of the game.
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Thing is, he's not the Wyrd henchman or uberfan badgering me to have a go. He's a little like me in that he's not completely taken with it (though still a lot more enthusiastic than me) and wants to concentrate on one or two masters and crews. It's largely bad luck that his crew consisted of Von Schill, Bishop, Taelor and a bunch of ronin, while mine had Ramos, Howard Langstrom, a metal gamin and three arachnids. Again, the near-random pairing of our two crews, skewed to such a strong 'rock paper scissors' relationship (even Howard was cut to ribbons), makes me wonder about the basic balance of the game.
If it makes you feel any better, locally the "big" (as in self proclaimed) historical group trend setters are just showing glimmers of coming out of the "competition" ancients, Aircraft games must be 4D, (okay I exaggerate, 3D,) to reflect 'reality,' "Fire and Fury" ACW (just personally boring,) and micro-managing companies while a Brigade commander mentality. If it wasn't for a few of their personalities, (most of them are nice people,) and a "half dozen" or so more willing to play a game then recreate a computer simulation on the table top I think I would have abandoned miniatures a few years ago.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Hi Guys
I think that Malifaux is not 'broken' from Wyrd's point of view because it does exactly what Wyrd want it to do!
Like GW's rules systems it's a mechanism to drive figure sales. Play balance differences help to push sales of newer, better, more 'broken' figures - but that's just 'marketing'! Thankfully these new iterations of figures cost significantly less than a new WFB or 40K army from GW - so Wyrd retains a 'good value' label - in comparison.
From my experience Malifaux has a very steep learning curve which can be at least partially overcome by extensive research on the relevant wiki - 'Pull My Finger'. Certainly the original starter sets seem 'under-powered' by more recent sets, but that could just be perception of the poor playing owner of a 'Cult of Winter' starter set - that's me!
On the other hand I think it would be a simple matter to change rules to 'Empire of the Dead' or 'In Her Majesty's Name' - which I will be trying in the future. Both of these systems have a much less steep learning curve and imho greater 'pick up and play-ability'! both also have less of a play 'pedigree' and may well turn out to be 'broken' themselves! However, even if playing with my crews is a success using EotD or IHMN, I will miss the very cool card based game mechanisms of 'faux!
Equally M2nd Ed might be the answer?
Just my 2ps worth!
Cheers
Jules
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Note to Bushido fans: happy to be proven wrong, BTW!
I think you should give it a try. ;)
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Firstly, apologies for this, but:
(http://forums.crackberry.com/attachments/news-rumors-f40/179809d1373210666t-apple-going-down-billions-tax-fraud-thread-necromancy.png)
Ahem, okay then.
I read this with interest, and having finally played a game of M2E Malifaux myself recently, I was interested to know if you'd had any more games yourself since you last posted here Vermis?
I personally noticed that the way the mechanics work has been altered noticeably, albeit subtly. Specifically, there seems to be a lot more modifiers for flipping cards, such that you are often flipping two or more for each activity.
I also noticed that some things (like cover, defensive stance and focused attack) are now much more worthwhile, and combined with flipping more cards noted above, give you back more control of your actions.
Soulstones have been totally revised. They are far more integrated into many actions now, but at the same time are not the trump that they used to be (i.e., you no longer flip additional cards and add the resultant scores together!).
Even Jokers have been tweaked.
In the game I played, we didn't use any upgrade cards either. However, looking through them afterwards, I did see a lot of potential to use the upgrades to tailor a crew one way or another (thus allowing you to field some non-official-theme models usefully). Did you use any upgrade cards in your M2E game?
Given all these changes, and the time that has elapsed since, have you had any more luck fielding a crew that you want and that you can win with?
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I have to say...as a non-Malifaux player just reading this thread the game "sounds" absolutely miserable. I suppose this is good as it's obviously not intended to appeal to gamers like myself. It just sounds like an absolutely horrible time. Then again I'm now to the point where I walk by "tournies" at conventions and shudder. I guess I'm fortunate that Malifaux minis are bit to Cirque du Soleil for me (and not in a cool way).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys. Forums like this are as good a way to avoid stuff as to learn about new stuff that interests ya! lol
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I read this with interest, and having finally played a game of M2E Malifaux myself recently, I was interested to know if you'd had any more games yourself since you last posted here Vermis?
Given all these changes, and the time that has elapsed since, have you had any more luck fielding a crew that you want and that you can win with?
I've had a couple. I've used the new cards for Hoffman and my other minis, plus some of the upgrades. I lost the last game to my henchman friend, although it was apparently a close, hard-fought thing. I still wonder if he was going easy on me though. But while it'll never be my favourite game and still has to rise a few notches to something I like (it's not just my chronic inability - honest) I've mellowed towards it. A bit.
Then tonight I tried cleaning up the mechanical attendant mini I got at Salute, with the typically hair-thin construct joints that fall apart when you show the file to them let alone try to unbend them, and the hatred came flooding back.
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Then tonight I tried cleaning up the mechanical attendant mini I got at Salute, with the typically hair-thin construct joints that fall apart when you show the file to them let alone try to unbend them, and the hatred came flooding back.
Yeah... I really hate how spindly some parts are, especially given how chunky many of the models are otherwise. I refuse to go anywhere near the Avatar models for a number of similar reasons. :-X
With the constructs, I simply assume I'll break everything anyway; easier to just cut the models apart and pin them back together with suitable brass rods and tubes. It saves you huge amounts of hassle in the long-run.
Game-wise though, I do find that timing is critical in Malifaux - regardless of edition.
You can be laid low of fluke by with luck, but mostly it's about hard resource assessment and playing to get the VPs. If you have to sacrifice most of your crew, so be it!
I'm not normally such a "ruthless" person though, so I find it easy to get carried away by trying to fight the opposing crew rather than concentrating on the scenario objectives. I also always lament the loss of named characters in my crews (not so much by the unnamed grunts), so getting the job done no matter what can also be hard for me sometimes.
I also noticed that a lot of movement stats have been re-tweaked, Masters all have 3AP now, and that there seemed to be more movement options for crews now. Did you find your crew(s) any faster in game?
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To be honest I have trouble remembering how it went, but I do remember that the extra AP helped Hoffman, even if just to squeeze another one of his weedy walk actions out. ;) Also, without looking up the stats, was it the Guardian who got an extra inch on it's walk stat? I remember another boost to Hoffman and construct mobility, anyway.
You can be laid low of fluke by with luck, but mostly it's about hard resource assessment and playing to get the VPs. If you have to sacrifice most of your crew, so be it!
I'm not normally such a "ruthless" person though, so I find it easy to get carried away by trying to fight the opposing crew rather than concentrating on the scenario objectives. I also always lament the loss of named characters in my crews (not so much by the unnamed grunts), so getting the job done no matter what can also be hard for me sometimes.
Ditto. I think this was the first time I started to think of it less as a battle, than as running out to grab counters while fending off distractions.