Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: giles the zog on May 27, 2013, 05:23:03 PM
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Hi,
Does anyone know whether the Russians used Mortars during WW1 / RCW very much ?
And as a follow up, are there any 28mm mortars with Russian crew produced by anyone ?
The usual suspects (Copplestone, Brigade & Musketeer) don't have any (just HMGs).
I have enough patience/skill to kit bash a single mortar and crew, but if they were used extensively I'd want three or more for my different armies.
TIA.
Giles.
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The Russian army has been widely circulated 9-CM MORTAR TYPE "GR"
9-cm mortar (bombomet) GR (German-Russian) was a captured Austrian lightweight mortar (9 cm Minenwerfer M 14 (1915)). In 1915, he was only slightly modernized General M.F. Rosenberg and put into production. As of 1915-1917. in Russia was manufactured 12519 9-cm mortar GR.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Russian_9_cm_Mortar_Type_GR.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/BombomettypeGR.jpg)
(http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut9801/RuMim/RuMim018.jpg)
3.5-inch (88.9-mm) mortar (bombomet) Aazen
3.5-inch (88.9-mm) bombomet Aazen created in France in 1915. In 1915-1916 manufactures in Russia.
(http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/66/Bombomet.jpg)
(http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/boris.mikhailov/2856/i-5893.jpg)
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Thanks !
Looks like the Great War Miniatures German mortar is most appropriate, with some converted Russian crew, or nabbed from artillery sets...
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Old Glory makes Russian mortars and crew in their WWI line-no picture though. I have a friend who has the OG army card-thinking about ordering a pack just to see what they are like
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Old Glory makes Russian mortars and crew in their WWI line-no picture though. I have a friend who has the OG army card-thinking about ordering a pack just to see what they are like
Hmm, no picture = no purchase.
:-[
My plan is to go with the GWM German set, and replace the heads with Copplestone/Brigade.
G
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so did the russians use mortars extensively and then in what role? I'd expect trench warfare rather than the WWII infantry support weapon style?
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I've got a couple of the OG mortars and while they are not earth shatteringly good they do the job.
John
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I know of cases where in the absence of conventional artillery, the opponents of the Civil War used mortars. It is in the role of support weapons, as it was during the Second World War. Of course the effectiveness of this weapon in such conditions was low. But it was better than nothing.
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IIRC Minifigs did one of those in 15mm.
I seem to recall that the British sent a quantity of Stokes mortars to the Whites during the Civil War.
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I do not recall that among the weapons supplied Whites, were mortars ...
I think that mortars were used only remaining of the imperial army.
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There are different mortars...
Light trench mortars were probably quite easy to use, once you did it a few times.
For heavy mortars you need to calculate precisely the distance to the target with a book etc, it needs intensive artillery officer training.
The game rules should reflect this.
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says the theory
I think it depends on the trial and error potential - if You don't see where they land it gets complicated.
Anyway, my main concern about authenticity of mortars in RCW would be the availability of mortar ammo and the logistics involved....
very different from WW2 I guess
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Thanks for all the feedback, I guess we are in agreement that:
- Mortars were used, but few and far between
- They were mostly captured German/Austrian varieties
- As usual supply of shells was a problem
- On the open steppe with more fluid warfare, they were of little value compared to the static trenches of the western front
- A cunning game mechanism should be developed so they zero in on static targets over time
I haven't seen anything in any of the literature that contradicts the comments supplied in this thread.
This has only come up as one of the players for my planned Big Game, has asked for one, so it just prompted me to do some thinking on the subject.
The GWM German mortars arrived this morning, my mate will start the head swaps tomorrow, and I should be able to introduce a new quirky unit for one of my guests to add to the fun of the game (which is what is all about).
Thanks,
Giles.
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Mortars can be very useful in urban combat.
As well have occurred during the RCW and positional battles - such as the defense of Tsaritsyn, storming Perekop and others ...
I have in my one of the books have information on the use of mortars in the Red Army:
"In the early summer of 1919 the Revolutionary Military Council of the All-Russian General Staff proposed to start forming mortar batteries as part of spare artillery brigades. Mortar battery then combined to in separate mortar divisions. For example, at the end of June 1919 on the southern front has acted 1st separate mortar division. "
"During the period from June 1918 until the end of 1919 on request the Main Artillery Administration was sent to the Red Army: guns of various calibres - 3222; mortars (bombomet) - 1006; mortars - 451; machine guns - more than 16,000; rifles - over 2 million. "
Whites has also includes the states of the regiment a mortar units. Here's an excerpt from the "Report of the new normal organization of the Army" (January 1919) developed the organizational commission of white Volunteer Army:
"The regiment is composed of 3 battalions and machine-gun team - 12 machine guns, training team, mortar team - 2 bombomet and 2 mortars ..."
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well, even if "bombomet" is a grenade launcher (1006 is not plenty), 451 mortars are a few and 2 mortars per MG Company to a regiment of 3 batallions adds up consistently, though it is very little heavy support.
On the other hand the artillery was quite plentiful
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"Bombomet" - in the terminology of the Imperial Army is the mortar that shoots "over-caliber" ammunition (bomb).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/fe/89mmBombomet1915.jpg)
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I don't speak russian and I can't judge translations, but have You considered that rifle grenade launchers that were quite common in WW1 do fall into Your definition? Apart from mortars that quite often had over-calibre ammo?
Could it be that Bombomet simply means small calibre grenade launcher and mortars are the larger ones, which in WW1 terminology could have calibres over 100 mm and breach loading?
Again, I don't speak russian but the terminology of mortar and grenade launcher have shifted considerably since WW1.
What would be Your very educated asessment, taking all this into consideration?
I am not after an argument here, I only want to understand :)
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My understanding is that in 1920 two words were used for howitzers – gaubitza (гаубица) and mortira (мортира). Since then I believe there has been a shift so that mortira is now mortar in the English sense. Several times I have seen references to "mortars" in 1919/1920 that were clearly howitzers.
In the early summer of 1919 the Revolutionary Military Council of the All-Russian General Staff proposed to start forming mortar batteries as part of spare artillery brigades. Mortar battery then combined to in separate mortar divisions.
I context I suspect those would be howitzer battalions in English (a divizion not being a division).
The regiment is composed of 3 battalions and machine-gun team - 12 machine guns, training team, mortar team - 2 bombomet and 2 mortars ..."
Whereas these would be mortars, presumably Allied supplied, since they are in the correct place for mortars in the TOE and are beside bomb-throwers. Not that they ever fielded their official organisation at any time.
So the bullet points that Giles listed seem quite reasonable to me, although I'm pretty sure the British sent mortars and men to train on them but the pitiful supply chain prevented frequent use. You see very few trench mortars on Orders of Battle, but they were definitely around in small numbers.
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I see we're a little confused about the "difference of terminology" of the last century in the name of weapons in the Russian army ;D
That's according to Russian sources notation that time:
Ружейный гранатомет ("Ruzheynyy granatomet") - Rifle grenade launcher. He shoots normal hand grenade or a special grenade. So called device for throwing grenades with a shot from a rifle (or other small arms).
At a later time can be shown as - Ружейная мортирка "Ruzheynaya mortirka" - Rifle small mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade
Миномет ("Minomet") - Mortar. Artillery gun, mortar variety, different devices and the lack of recoil gun carriage - they replace the base plate through which the recoil momentum transferred to the ground. Used for shooting "mina" (projectile for "minomet") is lowered into the bore.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%E8%ED%EE%EC%B8%F2
In Russia and the Soviet Union until the first half of the 1930s to the class of "minomet" refers mortars, designed to fire over-caliber ammunition (artillery bombs ("bomba"), such systems are also known as "field bombomet").
Бомбомет ("Bombomet") - Mortar. Described above on the theme.
Often the term "minomet" and "bombomet" mixed in with use.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%EE%EC%E1%EE%EC%B8%F2_(%EF%EE%EB%E5%E2%EE%E9)
Мортира ("Mortira") - Mortar. Artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories. Many modern languages "mortira" and "minomet" are called in one word. In the modern Russian language, the term "mortira" applies only to a short-barreled guns with no plates, transmitting a return to the land (ie, non-"minomet").
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%EE%F0%F2%E8%F0%E0
And the designation of an organizational unit in the Russian army ...
Дивизион ("Divizion") - Division. Artillery division, generally consisted of 3 artillery batteries (2-6 artillery guns in each artillery battery).
Дивизия ("Diviziya") - Division. The basic tactical formation in the various services of the Armed forces and military branches, consisting of management (Staff) and military units.
As you can see, these concepts are confused in the Russian text - it is impossible, because different terms are used. In English, the confusion becomes possible.
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Thanks gents, have started work today on the first mortar:
http://thelostcityofcarcosa.com/2013/06/02/bobrcw-mortar-part-1/ (http://thelostcityofcarcosa.com/2013/06/02/bobrcw-mortar-part-1/)
I hope to have two mortars and crew done in time for my Big Game in late June.
Thanks for all the help ! :-*
Later I might have a look at the stokes mortars as another option... 8)
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Yup, that's the spirit! all that theoretical talking when it's all about gaming. ;)
check scarab miniatures french WW1 range for amazing artillery crews
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Дивизион ("Divizion") - Division. Artillery division, generally consisted of 3 artillery batteries (2-6 artillery guns in each artillery battery).
No. Please, a Divizion is always a battalion in English when referring to artillery. We don't have an appropriate term when a cavalry unit is so named, leading to "half-regiment" or the like having to do the function. (Or stick with divizion.)
It is confusing, but it isn't helped by calling a unit that is not a division a "division" – you can't have a division that is a sub-unit of a division.
Мортира ("Mortira") - Mortar. Artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories. Many modern languages "mortira" and "minomet" are called in one word. In the modern Russian language, the term "mortira" applies only to a short-barreled guns with no plates, transmitting a return to the land (ie, non-"minomet").
Yes. But that omits that the modern usage is not necessarily the usage in 1919. An "artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories" pretty much defines a howitzer, and that is how the term mortira seems to have been applied back then.
Yup, that's the spirit! all that theoretical talking when it's all about gaming.
It's entirely practical. I've seen references in the past to "cavalry divisions" that give the impression of thousands, that were actually a divizion of a few hundred. Budenny's biography has "divisions" being wiped out that I'm pretty sure are only battalions badly translated.
And a reference to a "mortar division" that is actually a howitzer battalion (of as few as 6 guns on the ground) is a "theoretical difference" that I at least care to get right.
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In the Russian-language source, the translation of which I cited above (about the red artillery) the following words:
"Производилось также формирование минометных подразделений. В начале лета 1919 года Реввоенсовет Республики предложил Всероссийскому главному штабу приступить к формированию минометных батарей при запасных артиллерийских бригадах. Минометные батареи сводились затем в отдельные минометные дивизионы. Так, например, в конце июня 1919 года на Южном фронте уже действовал 1-й отдельный минометный дивизион."
According to the book: "Артиллерия в боях за Родину" (М.: Воениздат, 1957),
http://militera.lib.ru/h/prochko_is/02.html
Note the word "миномет, минометный"! In the Russian language, they can not be applied to mortar (мортира) or howitzers no under any circumstances.