Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Littlearmies on August 31, 2013, 11:13:07 PM
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I was thinking of uses for the 28mm Perry plastics and Spain occurred to me. Looking at my history books it looks as if, disappointingly, the reconquista was pretty much all done by the period these figures cover, with just the Conquest of Granada falling squarely in the zone (1482 - 1492). I was thinking that the Perry plastics might be suitable with selective use of figures and heads? With possibly some Foundry Conquistadores mixed in?
And would the Perry Berber / Arab figures for the Crusade work for the Emir of Granada's troops? Obviously they were designed for 400 years earlier but it seems to me that those robes conceal quite a lot! Does anyone make figures intended for this period that would work (for either side)?
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The Assault Group Spanish would be ideal
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Thanks Lowtardog - they wouldn't be a bit late? They look (to me) to more early 1500's than 1482-1492 - but I'm certainly not an expert.
Also, as an addendum, apart from The Osprey book about "El Cid and the Reconquista 1050-1492" are there any other books that cover the lat 15th Century - with illustrations? It seems to be a period that is a bit neglected (or perhaps I'm simply not looking in the right place!).
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Littelarmies
This previous thread on here is relevant and maybe useful, as the questions arose before. Essentially the perry figures are a good fit, but its the Moorish troops that are tricky, but it depends how accurate you feel you need/want to be?
When I once asked Michael Perry about extending his EA Range to Spain, it seemed unlikely to happen, but you never know...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=51643.msg606162#msg606162
Cheers
Simon.
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My impression is that the late Granadans looked fairly European - you might be to get away with using the Perrys modified with beards & helmet scarves/turbans etc, plus the usual Iberian kit like adargas (TAG sells those separately.) Though it would be nice if the Perrys would at least do a Granadan head sprue... ;)
I know of two other Ospreys that cover the period :
- The Moors : The Islamic West 7th-15th Centuries MAA 348; the final section of text, plus plate H, are about Granada. ("Spanish influence on Granadan costume was obvious in the 14th-15th centuries.")
- Granada 1492 Campaign 53; lots of good stuff for the Granadans, even more for the Spanish, including lots of contemporary illustrations and kit.
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This is a good thread!
I have also been looking for miniatures since I first read the Osprey Reconquista book. I will steal any advice you have to offer ;)
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Someone in another forum suggested the North African marines from Old Glory's Ottoman range (OXT-20), and they do look pretty spiffy as peasant militia crossbowmen, which would be the bulk of most forces in this last phase. And then if you can convert some booted light cavalry - the Perry plastics when they come out might be a good basis - and mix in some North African-looking mercs, you're pretty well there. Fortunately, it isn't a very complicated list.
Redoubt also has a line of Moorish marines in their Renaissance range, but my understanding is that Redoubt figs are big - not just tall but heavily-built - so mixing them with other manufacturers can be tricky (though, from what I've read here and there, the scale issue is more significant with cavalry than infantry... apparently Redoubt horses are gigantic. :o)
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I play the Spanish Reconquista. I picked 1212 as the time period for my Iberian adventures as this was the date of the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa. This was the high water mark of Islamic Spain so the forces are still even. The Christians have early heraldry and the Andalusians look good on the table.
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I play the Spanish Reconquista. I picked 1212 as the time period for my Iberian adventures as this was the date of the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa. This was the high water mark of Islamic Spain so the forces are still even. The Christians have early heraldry and the Andalusians look good on the table.
I've attended several campaign days (when WAB was at it's zenith) and mostly we played the era of El Cid (to keep the armies balanced more then anything). There are some pics on one of my blogs here if you're interested(Just scroll down the pics a little):
http://darrellhindley.co.uk/?m=201010
As has been said above, the best troop types I can think of for the Reconquest of Granada would be the Early Renaissance Spanish from TAG.
Darrell.
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Hello,
Thanks everyone for their advice - as for me missing the Granada 1492 Osprey - clearly I should have used a few more search terms!
I will ponder on this. As Naples was linked to Spain at this time I guess some Italian gear would be evident in the Spanish too?
Malc
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Another option for Spaniards using Perry minis is to play Christian v Christian. The Reconquista may have been winding down, but the minis are just right for the Castillian War of Succession, Catalonian Civil War, Navarrese Civil War, or any of the endless squabbles in the mid 15th century surrounding border feuds and personal vendettas of bellicose lords like the Counts of Pallars.
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These, wont link image incase dodgy bbut from the Osprey, still think TAG spanish would be ideal
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uOlxMLZ2Ekw/T1DjDc33aNI/AAAAAAAAJOg/yR0NVMRkrFg/s1600/Osprey_El_Cid_The_Reconquista_1050-1492_elcidthereconquista10501492081.jpg
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Hi !
This could be useful ( and beautiful ;) )
http://warfare.likamva.in/Renaissance/Pastrana_Tapestries.htm
I think the best range for Spanish 1492 would be Perry's !
( With careful choice of helmets )
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So, the consensus seems to be that TAG / Perry (with careful selection of heads) could work. But the Granadans are a bit more of a problem. With careful selection of figures of Perry and Gripping Beast Moors you could make a start - but i suspect you'd need a lot of headswaps and greenstuff to do it properly.
Thanks for tapestry link Byblos - that looks wonderful doesn't it?
I also find I'm rather intimidated by the Perry plastics (my normal scale and period is 15mm Napoleonics).
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I will toss my three pence worth in here and say that yes, the Perry's will work... as will some of the TAG figures, for the Spanish at least. Headgear and helmets will probably be the biggest headache though. The Grenadines and the Moors are a bit harder, but I would imagine a selective mix of Crusade Era Moors and maybe even some messing around with the Perry Plastic Sudan Ansar, might work.
The Grenada War lasted ten years and began in 1482, so I imagine there is plenty of scope in that period for anyone, let alone anything else. There were a number of short-lived rebellions afterwards too. It's something I've never looked into myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a wealth of work (unfortunately in Spanish if you don't read it) about on it. If that isn't enough, there are Portugal's Wars in Morocco, which attracted troops from as far away as England if memory serves me... I even vaguely recall one of the Grey family led troops there.
It would however be a fascinating project. :)
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Yes this is one ive posted about too..
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=51643.msg605791#msg605791
But i couldnt find any suitable Grenadine miniatures..keep me posted :'(
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Try this painting for inspiration- if you click twice you will see full size image- worth it!:
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Has any one asked the Perry brothers to make heads for with Spanish and Moor's Dearing the reconqest?
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Has any one asked the Perry brothers to make heads for with Spanish and Moor's Dearing the reconqest?
Probably- Anyone who's interested should drop them a line. I know that Michael (who makes the Late Medieval stuff) is working on the WWII Desert War stuff that the mo' so he may be very busy.
Worth asking!! :)
Darrell.
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You may also find useful Osprey's THE PORTUGUESE IN THE AGE OF DISCOVERY C.1340–1665: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Portuguese-in-the-Age-of-Discovery-c.1340%E2%80%931665_9781849088480
Period tapestries:
http://warfare2.netai.net/Renaissance/Pastrana_Tapestries.htm
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Think I will do that Darrell, and since they are supposedly going to be doing light cavalry to for the era. It would be q perfect lead into the Spanish way of fighting.
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Think I will do that Darrell, and since they are supposedly going to be doing light cavalry to for the era. It would be q perfect lead into the Spanish way of fighting.
Yeah, I'd love to see some Jinettes!! Maybe in metal? Maybe even for the first Crusade to use as Age of El Cid type Jinettes? Who knows these things? o_o
It does have potential though, both in metal and with the forthcoming plastic 'Light' Cav. box.!
Darrell.
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Another suitable use for the figures is Morocco. Here's a nice article about warfare there during the 15th century.
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Another suitable use for the figures is Morocco. Here's a nice article about warfare there during the 15th century.
Found it! :)
Darrell.
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Hello All,
Thanks for the assistance- I've ordered the Ospreys (Granada, Moors In The West and Portuguese In The Age of Discovery) from Amazon - BooksEtc have some very good deals at the moment. And will report back on what I can find.
Malc
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Some earlier discussion on the subject:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.180
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=51643.0
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As far as Jinetes go, it is believed they rode 'jockey style' using 'short stirrups' (although it's also argued they didn't), which is going to be difficult to pull off as most figures go for the 'donkey whalloper' look of almost straight legs.
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Iberian light cavalry rode "a la jineta" or Moorish style. In contemporary iconography of the 15th up to the 17th centuries show them riding with short stirrups and bent knees.
http://hglanham.tripod.com/Horses/horses17.html
http://xenophongroup.com/EMW/article001.htm
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Thanks for the links - that picture of La Higueruela shows the Jinettes with their shields on their right arms, which seems a bit odd. I've just picked up a few Artizan Berber spearmen and command -very nice figures but you have to wonder who stands with their legs that far apart through choice!
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Thanks for the links - that picture of La Higueruela shows the Jinettes with their shields on their right arms, which seems a bit odd.
I think the image is mirrored. :?
Another good source of Nasrid figures is Perry Mins 1st Crusade range.
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So far, I've picked up some Gripping Beast "El Cid" figures from eBay and some Artizan figures. The Gripping Beast figures have their shields attached - unfortunately some don't really fit my mental image of the period so they will get put aside for other things, and some have some quite soft sculpting of their faces but overall, they aren't bad.
I also got some Spanish and Neapolitan flags from Pete's Flags and I think they are very good: http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/petes_flags/
Once I actually have something to show I'll post some pictures.
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Another good source of Nasrid figures is Perry Mins 1st Crusade range.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but I totally disagree with this :) Don't get me wrong, I feel they can be a good basis to start from if you're willing to do conversion work, but to me they don't stand very well alone. That being said, I also feel that the Perry medieval plastics would be equally good as a basis for high-medieval Reconquista Granadines...
To put it in perspective, I would characterize saying that 1st crusade muslims stand in well for high-medieval Granadines as kinda like saying WWI Germans are a good stand in for WWII Germans. Or Chaos Space Marines are a good stand in for Space Marines. Or Christian first crusaders are a good stand in for viking-age Anglo Saxons. Or Warring States Chinese are a good stand in for Samurai...
I'm pedantic though... and I have a special place in my heart for Andalusian Spain... Sorry if I come across like a jerk!
Thanks
n