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Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: joroas on September 24, 2013, 09:32:33 AM
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I keep reading that the retro rules are still in use. Its a long time since I played 40K and even longer since I used 1st Edition. Nostalgia is drawing me back, but I can't recall what was better about the earlier rules. Thoughts? ???
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From what I remember, the Rogue Trader book was a pretty generic one.
There were lots of tables for choosing stats, abilities, skills, mutations, psychic powers etc.
Although there were 'suggested stats' for various races, very little was set in stone.
Points values were related to stat values rather than 'playtested' characters/troops.
It was a lot of fun because you could tailor stats to suit any miniatures you had so you could use them in the game.
Vehicles/walkers were also covered in a similar way.
There was also a lot of 'random generation' that could be done.
That is all I can remember.
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Yes, there was an emphasis on narrative rather than competitive games in those pre-Grimdark, pre-codex, pre-"The GW Hobby"TM days.
That said, the setting was quite grim and somewhat dark. They also started adding the army lists, the vehicle kits etc. PDQ after RT's release.
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The game can be really unbalanced, but alot deeper for skirmish level gaming. It is better with a GM or at least players who agree to have a balanced force, or some kind of narrative/objective based game.
Works with realm of chaos and there are plenty of army lists. The compendium has them all in, along with chapter approved.
(http://the-lost-and-the-damned.664610.n2.nabble.com/file/n5850302/wh40kcompendiumcover.jpg)
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Is it still possible to get these rules? Maybe in PDF, somewhere?
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Is it still possible to get these rules? Maybe in PDF, somewhere?
If GW decided to re-release them in a non-Apple format, I'd be among the first to queue to get them.
Now, I now you were not asking for it, but I must remind everyone that we cannot allow links to copyrighted material for download unless it is a legit offer by the rights holder, so everyone replying to this please keep this in mind.
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It is available on eBay.
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For me, the great thing about Rogue Trader is not really the rules. So far I only played it once and it was not a huge succes, that said I will probably try it out some more in the future.
What I do really like about Rogue Trader is, the huge amount of possibilities and freedom in the games. This is something that got lost very quickly when army lists and competitive gaming was introduced.
Also I really do like the setting too, I feel that it was more open back then and less restrictive as I feel it has become now. I still like the 40K setting, but then again it might be because the people I game with tend to take it on the light side and we still do whatever we like instead of feeling forced to follow newer GW doctrines.
For me Rogue Trader is the beginning of a journey into possibilities and new 40K gaming is trying to stop you from having any possibilities other than buying expensive toys and getting pounded by poer gamers.
Of course it is possible to have enjoyable games with new 40K. I guess it always depend on what you seek and who you pley with.
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I was reading through the random mission generator and there are some classic little narratives in there.
That's what I enjoyed about RT, the depth in respect to the universe which has been lost a little now.
It akso worked so well with a GM too. Added to the richness when you had a troupe of mimics following a covert ops squad, blowing their cover with such hilarity.
Lol
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I agree with the Commander, in my opinion Rogue Trader was about the setting, your story and creativity.
(Today's 40K seems to be about consumerism... Though they try to hint back to old stuff in 6th ed. But sadly, it feels like artificial and contrived nostalgia, those little "Forging a narrative" callouts in the new book have me thinking "forgery" instead of "smithing". Now the old scenario generator, every time I read it, my eyes light up, I start smiling and ideas start sparking.)
I especially like the smaller size engagements that Rogue Trader was intended for, where everyone was someone and they actually mattered.
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Eldar pirates. Marines with shotguns or Eldar weapons or whatever struck your fancy. More imagination and creativity friendly. :D
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Crunchy weapons rules, crunchy equipment rules, vehicle rules that were in parts too crunchy (Turn Radius Ratio, I'm looking at you), alien creatures that were fun on legs, plus the whole fun attitude that runs through the Rogue Trader book.
Also flying surfboards, dinosaurs and its meshing with WHFB 3rd edition.
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I keep reading that the retro rules are still in use. Its a long time since I played 40K and even longer since I used 1st Edition. Nostalgia is drawing me back, but I can't recall what was better about the earlier rules. Thoughts? ???
The book itself, the art, the feel and he lack of army lists, it really is build what you want. Ypi even have the points costing system in the book so you can boost our orks to match the marines....
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Eldar pirates. Marines with shotguns or Eldar weapons or whatever struck your fancy. More imagination and creativity friendly. :D
And this!
Plus Dreads called Chuck and Eddie (if I remember) and it's when you got three rhinos or two land raiders for a tenner!
One thing that always bugged me was a lack of squat special gear though....
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If GW decided to re-release them in a non-Apple format, I'd be among the first to queue to get them.
Does this mean you can get it in Apple?
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Does this mean you can get it in Apple?
My bad, I meant all the stuff they released in e-format so far have been for the iPad (AFAIK). So I guess they won't do beyond that (possibly for bootlegging reasons if they did an "open" format).
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It's basically an RPG with miniatures - a skirmish game. A good one though.
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While I only started in Gen2...there was enough of the Rogue Trader-ish left in the game to really set it apart. Sure it was vastly time consuming, very clunky, and had so many special rules you could spend all day debating something, but the game had charm.
The games played created much more of a story. You were able to really customize your stuff, and vehicles all had their own special traits. Weapons were vastly different from each other instead of being lumped into a handful of categories. Strategy cards and wargear cards caused absolute mayhem.
It may not have been a great game, but it was a much better game. They also did some lovely Chapter rules for various chapters back in the old White Dwarf. I remember my favorite being the Mentor Legion which had probytes and cadre...and used a meshed targeting to link bolt gun fire, allowing a squad to fire its bolt guns at the same location, turning them into a lascannon etc.
You had allies, and mercenary forces you could hire on. There was tons of cheese...but in an almost good way if you played with friends. There were heaps of units in the early codices which models never existed for, allowing you to experiment and bit-mash till your heart was content. 40K has changed so immensely it's really saddening...and I'm a "young pup" by many game club standards. I can't imagine the older fellas who really gamed heavily in the rogue trader days.
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I have a lot of fondness for the Rogue Trader book and there was a time when I knew much of it inside out. You never forger your first I guess :)
The RT rulebook is chock-a-block with fun concepts, ideas and inspiration. Like Modhail, I have spent quite a few pleasant hours re-reading the scenario generation charts at the rear of the book. They never fail to inspire.
I dont have much interest in playing games using th RT ruleset these days though. If I knew someone running a game of RT then I would happily join in for the sake of nostalgia, but I would rather tell the stories that the book inspires using a more modern/streamlined system.
I have a weekend of RT themed 7TV gaming using squats, Inquisitors, beholders, gyrinx, navigators and catachan devils planned for mid-October and I have been painting a lot of miniatures for use in it. I am really looking forward to getting some of the scenario ideas inspired by the RT rulebook twenty-something years ago on the table. But I wont be using the RT rules themselves.
I do think that anyone with enough passing interest to read this thread owes it to themselves to have a read through Rogue Trader if they havent already though. Its a genre classic, even if its a bit of a quaint antique now.
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Rogue Trader is the only skirmish Sci-fi I play in 28mm. I am happy to have all the books. I suggest everyone to try it !
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Plus Dreads called Chuck and Eddie (if I remember)
And ork dreadnoughts called "Super Attack Onslaughter".
:)
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And don't forget the robots and squats. The more I recall about RT the more I am tempted to get back into it. :)
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Rogue Trader + Forgeworld minis = a game I'd actually play. lol
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As much as RT has the nostalgia, I really only ever enjoyed playing 2nd edition. Third was such a let down. 4th just added more stuff to the let down. 5th you can tell they knew they blew it. 6th... I was out and doing other things and had sold everything I owned. I had all the RT books (including the RoC ones as well as the three Ork ones), every single 2nd, 3rd and 4th book. It was a fine collection.
Frankly, considering where GW is today, I don't miss a thing!
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Frankly, the first edition rules were a horrible, horrible mess. They even changed the blast weapon rules a couple of months after publication... and it has zero suitability for a competetive environment (unless you enjoy "find the loophole" cheesefests).
...but the game had such spirit! I really loved it. The scenario generator, Abdul Goldberg, Rainbow Warriors, all the zany stuff. And the emphasis on making your own stuff, which has basically completely disappeared from current GW products (they don't even publish terrain making books anymore).
Today I would take more modern rules and use them to play scenarios in the spirit of Rogue Trader.
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Rogue Trader + Forgeworld minis = a game I'd actually play. lol
Just the idea has got me to go "Wow"... :-* I can only sell so many kidneys though.... :?
Exactly, maxxon, and it's the traces of that spirit that keep me intrigued in the setting. Sadly it is nowadays found (to a degree) in the products from Fantasy Flight, Black Library and fan created projects, and not in the parent company's product.
Random jump of thought: If I ever get a Rogue Trader/Inquisitor/=I=Munda campaign off the ground, it MUST feature Abdul Goldberg! Anyone have any suggestions for a suitable figure?
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The rumoured new John Blanche inquisitor/necromunda skirmish game might be right up your alley yhen.
;)
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While I only started in Gen2...there was enough of the Rogue Trader-ish left in the game to really set it apart. Sure it was vastly time consuming, very clunky, and had so many special rules you could spend all day debating something, but the game had charm.
The games played created much more of a story. You were able to really customize your stuff, and vehicles all had their own special traits. Weapons were vastly different from each other instead of being lumped into a handful of categories. Strategy cards and wargear cards caused absolute mayhem.
It may not have been a great game, but it was a much better game. They also did some lovely Chapter rules for various chapters back in the old White Dwarf. I remember my favorite being the Mentor Legion which had probytes and cadre...and used a meshed targeting to link bolt gun fire, allowing a squad to fire its bolt guns at the same location, turning them into a lascannon etc.
You had allies, and mercenary forces you could hire on. There was tons of cheese...but in an almost good way if you played with friends. There were heaps of units in the early codices which models never existed for, allowing you to experiment and bit-mash till your heart was content. 40K has changed so immensely it's really saddening...and I'm a "young pup" by many game club standards. I can't imagine the older fellas who really gamed heavily in the rogue trader days.
A time of heroes, the golden age when men were real men. Strength 9 on some guys and stuff like that.
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Every time I dump a shampoo bottle in the recycling bin I take a moment to mourn for the Grav Attack Vehicle that it could have been.
Edit to add the following: Talking of high strength characters, every time I roll up a chaos champion with the Realm of Chaos rules, they always come out S7. Almost without fail. It is spooky. A load of mediocre stats and then S of 7. Does anyone else have this experience?
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lol lol lol
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I've always wanted to try it out.
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Personally I never really cared much for the rules themselves, but I'm a sucker for the ideas and narratives that you could make. It's a great toolkit but a subpar game in my opinion.
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The rumoured new John Blanche inquisitor/necromunda skirmish game might be right up your alley yhen.
;)
What's this all about then? ???
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google "innocence" 40k skirmish game...
coming in a month or so...
or not, depends who you believe....
If it IS true, it really will make so so many people happy...
All those old RT sculpts will see daylight again....
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Wait, so, Innocense is a relaunch of Rogue Trader or... what?
I mean, it would be great to see a re-launch of all the sculpts - they'll most likely be as expensive as buying them second hand anyway ;)
Personally I think that if they do anything, they do something new. And it's most likely to be horrible.
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GW dont want to support new games. Any game they release will be a "stand alone" game like space hulk and dread fleet. Probably mission based, with no rules for adding anything.
THe days of necrounda are long gone. I think the reasoning is that GW want to sell whole armies, so just selling gangs doesnt work for them (imagine being able to go into a store to play with only £20 worth of models! Preposterous!). Obviously SPace Hulk is not an army, but its £80 in the cash register-now-go-away. Any new games will be in this style.
Not that I think this is a good move, but hey ho. I love campaign based skirmish games. THe more customisable the better. In fact, I wrote my own rules, NUclear Renaissance:
http://www.ramshacklegames.co.uk/nuclear/downloads.html
Not great for doing 40k with though, as guns are over priced. maybe I should write a mod for it?
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I think this quote from Dakka dakka says it best:
" My personal thoughts are that GW is probably looking ahead to a post-Hobbit future, and splash releases of these box games drive a lot of interest and are big money makers(excluding Dreadfleet). By killing off Specialist Games, this frees them up to re-release boxed sets for these IPs, or new ones like Innocence/Inquisition, but can limit the model production needed to the box sets.
Ideally they will create games that can be expanded via their current model range, so for example, Inquisition could feature other factions of aliens or heretics, so you could have a Chaos Cult or a Space Marine Scout kill team, or a Tau Expeditionary Force, etc. That is just what I would like to see, but it would be a smart move as with a little effort they could encourage people to purchase a box from another army, and maybe from there they get interested and expand it to an Ally faction for an existing army, or a full scale army.
Granted this is not too much different from the idea of Kill Team, but having a box set built around it would certainly drive more interest than a PDF release."
Which if you look at the RT rule book, and long for narrative based gaming, it would be far far more like the RT than current 40k...
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So, the message is hang fire and see what emerges from the GW fog cloud? >:D
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Apparently but - not to derail too much - I've also heard that the next splash from GW is going to be a revisiting of EPIC as well?
To me it seems more like wishful thinking by the fans right now rather than rumors. Anyway, we'll see, come November :)
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So, the message is hang fire and see what emerges from the GW fog cloud? >:D
Indeed.
And hope that when the fog clears, us gamers of a certain age, will for once, not be forgotten... :?
Narrative RT style gaming, in the 40k universe, may yet again be part of all our lives!
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Fingers crossed. ;)
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So that particular rumour is called "Innocence" now?
I daren't hope.... My back still hurts from the knife that was termination of Specialist Games. :'(
imagine being able to go into a store to play with only £20 worth of models! Preposterous
Yup, no fun playing with only one figure.... ::)
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Ideally they will create games that can be expanded via their current model range, so for example, Inquisition could feature other factions of aliens or heretics, so you could have a Chaos Cult or a Space Marine Scout kill team, or a Tau Expeditionary Force, etc. That is just what I would like to see, but it would be a smart move as with a little effort they could encourage people to purchase a box from another army, and maybe from there they get interested and expand it to an Ally faction for an existing army, or a full scale army.
Granted this is not too much different from the idea of Kill Team, but having a box set built around it would certainly drive more interest than a PDF release
I think this is specifically against GW philosophy. They dont want to encourage player to have small forces. They want EITHER a one off sale, jobs done end of story OR to sell a whole army. They push up sales by you not being able to play unless you have already spend £80 to 150 on a basic army.
Letting customers play small forces is counter intuitive to their sales practices. You can say "kill team" but notice that "kill team" events are pay to enter events at warhammer world, and you would not be able to play a kill team game in a store.
I would like to see a game about making small gangs, but I dont think it is very likely. It will be 2 factions in a box and no rules to add other models or develop it. I think this is not in the best interest of the hobby, or sales practices, but then GW makes it money, so what do I know?
If you want to make fun small units then get into inquistor, played at 28mm scale (p[layers call it Inq28). The rules are available for free from the GW specialist games section, so download them and have a look!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480007a&categoryId=6700005a§ion=&aId=21500020a
If you want some inspiration then check out the ammo bunker (another forum)
http://s3.zetaboards.com/The_Ammobunker/forum/3012278/
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Well said, Curtis!
And it's true, GW seems to want either a one off sale or a major investment. But then again there is no reason for us to give them what they want, is there? (They sure as hell haven't been giving me what I want the last couple of years... Might as well return the favour.) If their marketing research is more than some beancounter wishlisting they'll catch on... eventually.
Good call on suggesting Inq28.
If you want something bigger than the 3-5 figures an Inq28 warband requires, but smaller than a full 40K army, check out =I=Munda/Inquisimunda. It's in the same spirit as Inq28, but more at the Necromunda gang sizes. There aren't any set in stone rules for it (Except maybe for the Empire of Ghost's (http://empireofghosts.blogspot.nl/p/inquisimunda-resources.html) effort*), but it's essentially Necromunda mashed into the 40K 2nd ed rulebook (Just use 40k point value x 10 as cost in credits), with any resulting oddness for the GM to rule on.
In the Emperor's Name is also a good alternative, if you don't want to restrict yourself to rulesets originating from the GW design team.
All share a certain DIY, storydriven mindset.
*: But don't forget to seek out Xanthos and Migsula's threads on Dakkadakka as well, those more or less fathered the concept a few years back.
Despite all the alternatives that already exist, I'd still like to see the innocence rumour to be true though, especially if the part about Blanche-inspired miniatures is correct. I've grown fond of his particular style of weirdness.
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I never really found much you cant do with necromunda, except looting and vehicles. Plus the recovery charts are too harsh. But then again, it brings us back to Rogue Trader. All the simple fun of warhammer, but much more open ended, and more easy to make units for, as the points system is in place. Plus LOADS of resources for it. Just no campaign system. But again that would be easy to make, just a recovery table and a reward table. Having said that, isnt that what realm of chaos was for? I love realm of chaos. The "grey sensei" gang is basically inquisitors anyway.....
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One of the things that struck me even as a kid picking up RT as my first ever tabletop wargame was that the points values assigned to the stats seemed all out of whack. By all appearences, it was a game of futuristic gunfights, but only 1/4 of a point for BS and 1/2 a point for WS?? and 4 points for A, same as wounds. I mean wounds are really useful, they mean you have to get killed all over again before you are really dead. Whereas attacks are those mythical things you might get to use if you dont get shot to cr*p the moment you step within bolter range. In my first games people got shot to bits long before they got into close combat, perhaps mainly because we didnt have hardly any terrain. I later discovered that the points values were taken wholesale from WFB 3rd Editition, where they may have made a bit more sense. I started gaming with the plastic orks and kitted them out with all the stuff, power gloves and whatnot that came in the game, and got panned every time because i had effectively spent a load of points on stuff that was not worth a damn lol. In principle close combat was viable-ish if you could persuade the opponent to put some serious amount of terrain down on the table. Not easy when he has a whole army of heavy weapons and artillery and is as stubborn as a mule at rules-lawyery.
There were many ways to loose with orks. Same for genestealers, zoats, chaos, all of which I dabbled in... Lots of fun troops, but if some clown teleports a bombot with X27 virus bomb right into the middle of them on turn 1, they may as well have stayed at home.
That was my experience of it, and I think we persisted with it just because we liked collecting the figures, the source material was fun and there was always this feeling that if the rules would just work properly it would be awesome, and simply we didnt know any better. However, i think if someone was in a more well organised gaming group with experienced GMs and so on, the experience would be very different.
Regarding a miniature for Abdul Goldberg, there is a Reaper Chronoscope mini called Turk who might be suitable.
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One of the things that struck me even as a kid picking up RT as my first ever tabletop wargame was that the points values assigned to the stats seemed all out of whack. By all appearences, it was a game of futuristic gunfights, but only 1/4 of a point for BS and 1/2 a point for WS?? and 4 points for A, same as wounds. I mean wounds are really useful, they mean you have to get killed all over again before you are really dead. Whereas attacks are those mythical things you might get to use if you dont get shot to cr*p the moment you step within bolter range. In my first games people got shot to bits long before they got into close combat, perhaps mainly because we didnt have hardly any terrain. I later discovered that the points values were taken wholesale from WFB 3rd Editition, where they may have made a bit more sense. I started gaming with the plastic orks and kitted them out with all the stuff, power gloves and whatnot that came in the game, and got panned every time because i had effectively spent a load of points on stuff that was not worth a damn lol. In principle close combat was viable-ish if you could persuade the opponent to put some serious amount of terrain down on the table. Not easy when he has a whole army of heavy weapons and artillery and is as stubborn as a mule at rules-lawyery.
There were many ways to loose with orks. Same for genestealers, zoats, chaos, all of which I dabbled in... Lots of fun troops, but if some clown teleports a bombot with X27 virus bomb right into the middle of them on turn 1, they may as well have stayed at home.
That was my experience of it, and I think we persisted with it just because we liked collecting the figures, the source material was fun and there was always this feeling that if the rules would just work properly it would be awesome, and simply we didnt know any better. However, i think if someone was in a more well organised gaming group with experienced GMs and so on, the experience would be very different.
Regarding a miniature for Abdul Goldberg, there is a Reaper Chronoscope mini called Turk who might be suitable.
All true, when we played we didn't even use PVS, we just used the minis we had! ut as we played Orks against amry it was fair, then one day some one turned up the the Harlequins box set.....
Still I think the game was geat and more about a shared exprience that trying to win. But I suppose we came at it as roleplayers.
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Rogue Trader is by far the most fun and atmospheric of all the books I've seen. The 6th Ed book will be added to my collection (got the rulebooks from 1st to 5th so for completeness' sake) as soon as I can nab it disgustingly cheaply off some unsuspecting eBayer.
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Rogue Trader is by far the most fun and atmospheric of all the books I've seen. The 6th Ed book will be added to my collection (got the rulebooks from 1st to 5th so for completeness' sake) as soon as I can nab it disgustingly cheaply off some unsuspecting eBayer.
Actually, I consider 6th Edition the best in a long while, possibly the best since they made the switch from 2nd to 3rd (and all the other ones have been "improved versions" of 3rd). There's a lot of decent rule concepts in it, the fluff part is rather sufficient as a primer, and there's a lot of eye candy.
I must say that I miss the whimsy of 1st and 2nd, but concerning gameplay, 6th is a nice, fluid base that has some fun elements thrown in (deadly terrain etc.) that can be fun.
It could just be a case that I am getting too old to remember all those special rules, and the overall game still suffers from the folks that want to play competitively.