Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Commander Vyper on October 04, 2013, 02:11:57 PM
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http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/mars-attacks-the-miniatures-game?ref=banner
I like the studio pj's. Modern us army are nice but want to see a 50's B Movie add on with period us army, suits.etc....
:)
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Annoying it didn't start when the countdown ticked down, I watched it count down but then it went live while I was out. Ah well they got my money anyway.
Modern us army are nice but want to see a 50's B Movie add on with period us army, suits.etc....
I agree I wanted 50s green army men. The modern soldiers do look OK though.
I hope they pile a lot more in the box as they do stretch goals. It looks rather sparse compared to say Zombicide or the insane Reaper Bones II
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The estimated shipping date is August 2014, isn't that a bit long? But sounds great, pitty Kickstarter don't supports paypal.
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Looks good but I had to think on this one. I won't play the game and more than likely won't paint the minis.
Now where do I sign up? :D
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I'm another one who would have preferred the 'classic' 60s look too. :(
Nevertheless all of the figures do look excellent and I am in. I had managed to resist Kickstarter up until now. ::)
I'm not sure it should count as 'Future Wars' though and this would look so much better on 'Post-War and Modern Adventures'.
;)
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The figures look spectacular, but man are they pricey. Besides the rules, board and ruins 44 plastic figures for $100.....
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The figures look spectacular, but man are they pricey. Besides the rules, board and ruins 44 plastic figures for $100.....
That isn't really accurate. That $100 includes $50 of credit you use to buy add ins, and that means you can buy more minis. Additionally, they've already stated some of the stretch goals will add minis to the core box as well.
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The figures look spectacular, but man are they pricey. Besides the rules, board and ruins 44 plastic figures for $100.....
Even working on the basic $15 for 8 figures, that's $1.87 per figure, as compared to $1.44 for a Warlord Games Plastic British Infantryman, not that big a deal I would think. Mantic Figures typically work out around $1.24 for a human sized figure, but there is 'produced under licence' involved too.
:?
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Have they mentioned what kind of plastic they're using for the figures?
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Even working on the basic $15 for 8 figures, that's $1.87 per figure, as compared to $1.44 for a Warlord Games Plastic British Infantryman, not that big a deal I would think. Mantic Figures typically work out around $1.24 for a human sized figure, but there is 'produced under licence' involved too.
:?
I had added the 20 figures from the boxed set to the three $15 8-figure sets you can buy for your $50 credit. Assuming that the figures are the most expensive items in the buy (and I might well be wrong here) they come at about $2 a figure. But you are right. These are licensed figures and one should expect to pay more for those.
Well, I am Dutch you know. We're a nation of cheapskates :D
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I hope the USD to GBP stays at £0.62
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I hope the USD to GBP stays at £0.62
I'm glad we're not alone lol
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Mr Dee's mate did the studio pj's. Very nice:
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I'm not sure it should count as 'Future Wars' though and this would look so much better on 'Post-War and Modern Adventures'.
;)
I did consider post war, but aliens sold it. For me for future wars. :D
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Love the Martians! I agree that it would have been great to see the 50s stuff.
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Well, I am Dutch you know. We're a nation of cheapskates :D
Well they are talking about adding a Commander to the Martian Set and possibly a Sergeant to the US Army packs, perhaps even a heavy weapon to each on top, so that's potentially down to $1.5 per figure.
Should keep you Dutch and even the Scots happy. ;)
I am a bit surprised at some of the comments on the Kickstarter though... people huh? ::)
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Have they mentioned what kind of plastic they're using for the figures?
In the comments Mantic has stated that it will be a board game style plastic, not restic. They compare it to Loka (which I have no experience with) and Gears of war from FFG (which I have and is of good quality).
As to the army figures. I have two boxes of the US Late War infantry that fill the bill nicely, but I don't have any plastic modern troops, so I'm happy with the uniforms.
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In the comments Mantic has stated that it will be a board game style plastic, not restic. They compare it to Loka (which I have no experience with) and Gears of war from FFG (which I have and is of good quality).
I have no experience with any of these. Is this plastic hard or bendy? If weapons are bendy then I probably won't buy in.
I really am itching to do this one. I love MA, had the reprint cards when I was a kid. I too wish they had classic uniforms for the US troops.
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Looks like hard plastic from what's been said.
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Well they are talking about adding a Commander to the Martian Set and possibly a Sergeant to the US Army packs, perhaps even a heavy weapon to each on top, so that's potentially down to $1.5 per figure.
Should keep you Dutch and even the Scots happy. ;)
I am a bit surprised at some of the comments on the Kickstarter though... people huh? ::)
It's starting to look better ;D
But to expect politically correct figures from a Mars Attacks game seems somewhat ... naive.
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i got up, seen that there was 21 EB $95 one's left but couldn't buy it due to kickstarter having "problems" with there site......damnit
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Just backed it. I hope to see many more figs make the box. Although the initial $125 credit is pretty nice - I could even take another full boxed set from that. Would probably not make that much sense though.
Thinking about it... If you compare the $100 variant to the $150 one, you can say buy the $100 pack and get another box for $50 - that doesn't sound too bad.
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Should keep you Dutch and even the Scots happy. ;)
We're not tight, we're just careful!
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Is this plastic hard or bendy? If weapons are bendy then I probably won't buy in.
Looks like hard plastic from what's been said.
From what I've read, I would bet on the near certainty that these are not polystyrene, which most people associate with "hard plastic". Here is the exact quotes from Mantic on the comments page so far, take them for what you think they are worth:
"the miniatures are pre-assembled, in the same plastic as the Fantasy Flight Gears of War game, and the same as our LOKA game - very high quality. The only parts that will be provided unassembled are the helmets, so that you can add them yourself after painting."
"the plastic is slightly softer so the mould lines are not as obvious, but because it's softer the mould allows for more undercuts and therefore better detail."
"none of our plastic is spincast, it's all injection moulded. It's the material that's different, not the process. With this one it's a similar material to the resin plastic that you'll be used to from KoW, but with the differences mentioned above. This makes it slightly flexible, but nowhere near Bones levels of bendiness."
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Thanks. I feared as much.
I'm out. Sucks too as I love the IP itself.
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If you want mars attacks with green army men right now then its totally doable.
Get the martians from the mars attacks game from fantasy flight, a box of WF GI's and a bag of plastic giant insects. Total cost came to about $50 for 20 martians 30 GI's and 15 giant insects.
Shit I had my mars attacks game before they even thought about the kick starter and I have the mars attacks that I want not what they think I want.
the other thing is the game invasion from outer space by FFG is basicly mars attacks vs a 1920's circus replete with a dancing bear in a tu tu. It has an awful lot more in the box too.
Do you have links to htese games? I could not find them on amazon or ebay.
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Dave.
I've got a fair bit of confidence with Mantic on this. For dread zone they're sending out one of their production execs to china to oversee the entire production run to ensure superb quality is maintained. I know the eternal struggle between lead, resin and plastic, ( and everything in between those days ) but I would expect to product to be of a good standard.
I spoke with mantic for about twenty minutes yesterday on the production process for this and dread zone, and ended the call being more confident about their approach and QA expectations from their manufacturers. It's their name over the door, not the plastics company after all.
Anyway good luck in what you choose.
Cheers
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Thanks Commander. I'm torn, I wish they would release a video of a sample of what these figs look like. Reaper did that with the bones so folks knew in advance how bendy they would be. I don't like to beat a dead horse, but I'm really fed up with annoying bendy crap.
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I got in last night for a early bird $95 level, the modern US Soldiers got me in. I like the look of them and their terrain will fit in for other games, also the extra credit will go towards more troops and terrain. Their international shipping of $15 is a good deal for us people down south here in the great Oz.
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Scurv, you're a gentleman. Thanks for the links. ;)
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I haven't pledged yet as I am wanting to know if I could pledge just for the U.S marines, the map, buildings and any of the vehicles that get added..
I can't see myself playing Mars attack but I certainly be keen to use the terrain in many of the 28mm games I currently play.
LGW
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Thanks Commander. I'm torn, I wish they would release a video of a sample of what these figs look like. Reaper did that with the bones so folks knew in advance how bendy they would be. I don't like to beat a dead horse, but I'm really fed up with annoying bendy crap.
I don't mind the material, it's what people do with it. Mantic have produced decent restic figures and awful polystyrene and metal ones.
Well, mostly - if you're sculpting and selling figures made from your own poo, I'll probably pass on those, thank you...
Most of the Bones minis I have are fantastic - the monsters especially are great and there's almost no flash on them. Bent swords? Dip them in hot water, straighten, then cold water. The only worries I have with the figures are 1) spearshafts and staves probably need replacing with a bit of brass rod as they're just TOO bendy; and 2) some of the human figures are not as well-detailed as the majority.
But yeah, thanks for that Commander!
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I waiting to see if they come up with a dog getting fried.
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I waiting to see if they come up with a dog getting fried.
:o :-* lol lol
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/31558613@N00/sets/72157625601126001/
the set
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Thanks BooBoo :)
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No offence, but allot of people really like to fund crap.
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I suppose thats just like a lot of people talking crap lol
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Just my opinion, this stuff is rubbish, I'm not a fan of mantic in the slightest, but this is rubbish, its silly rubbish, that's just me though
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I have pledged but I only want the Terrain and the Marines...
from what I hear there will be scaled vehicles added [depending on how much funds are raised]
and there could be more buildings but not damaged...
I will be flicking the Martians and rule book off once I get the box. everything else will be used to add terrain or characters to my Zombicide and SuperSystem3 games.
LGW
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Just my opinion, this stuff is rubbish, I'm not a fan of mantic in the slightest, but this is rubbish, its silly rubbish, that's just me though
Indeed, would be a dull world indeed if we all liked the same thing. ::)
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I'd only be interested in the Martians if I went in on this. Still not sure yet so will wait.
From what I can see it is still a reasonable deal. A game in a box. The rules are a bit risky as will the quality of the final pieces considering they won't be in Mantic's previous materials.
But the aliens look to me like they could be very nice. Possibly the characters too.
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Just my opinion, this stuff is rubbish, I'm not a fan of mantic in the slightest, but this is rubbish, its silly rubbish, that's just me though
Indeed, would be a dull world indeed if we all liked the same thing. ::)
Indeed it would. Personally I could point my finger at any number of things I consider 'silly rubbish' across the boards, up to the point that it becomes a worn and bloody stub.
The thing is, is that I don't and have some tolerance and respect for whatever pleasure and enjoyment anyone gets out of whatever it is that they choose to do with their own time and money.
Now, burning cattle... just how would one go about painting those? ;)
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Objective light (bbq) sauce? ;)
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If your keen for a "All Terrain" pledge level on this KS Project then go onto the comments section and let them know..
As I am keen for terrain but not the martians ...
LGW
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I got in in this as soon as it went up, just to grab an early bird slot while I made up my mind.
I like the IP and I like the game designer and I like the value that Mantic provide both with their regular stuff and in particular their Kickstarter hauls. The only thing putting me off is that I already have way too much stuff as it is and I need to at least try to start acting like a grown up about some of these purchases.
Thought of yet another new manufacturing material gives me the creeps, but I am pretty sure that it wont be worse than "restic". Seeing as I have been able to get a fair bit of restic cleaned, prepped and painted over the last couple of years, Im not really that worried about a new material.
The clincher regarding Mars Attacks for me is that there are plans to include the Martians as a faction in Deadzone and to make a Martian DreadBall team. Both of those things make me happy.
I am also not quite sold on the mantic in house rules writer. I want to know how this is different from deadzone and if it isnt why its the right way to go and not just recycling a ruleset with different minis.
Thats definitely a concern of mine. I mentioned that concern in a post on the designers (Jake Thornton) blog and he responded as follows:
"I find it very different from DZ as that encourages me to think carefully about each and every individual model, carefully positioning him for maximum effect and nursing them past dangerous spots as they advance. Human and Martian troopers are way more expendable than DZ models, and have a habit of dying very quickly. It’s a very different mental approach, and suits the background. Only the heroes (of both sides) have any real staying power. And even they can get messed up if they get on the wrong end of a heat ray or artillery strike (or falling car)."
Thats far from all the information required to make the decision whether to back if you already have Deadzone obviously, but it gives an idea at least. Mars Attacks is about wholesale carnage while Deadzone is A Team/Spec Ops, individual-centric stuff.
This is the Quirkworthy post with the DZ vs MA gameplay comments. (http://quirkworthy.com/2013/10/04/warning-enemy-approaching/#comments)
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The only thing putting me off is that I already have way too much stuff as it is and I need to at least try to start acting like a grown up about some of these purchases.
I love everything about this project, except for one thing. My better half has an infinite amount of patience, never tells me how to spend my money and indulges me when I feel I've gone too far. But even her eyebrows are raised more and more when the postman rings. I've gotten into way too many project, I have more than enough stuff to paint for quite a few years. So aside from rounding out any collections that I planned already, I just cant take on any new projects!
That said, I cant wait to drool over all the wonderful things the talent on this site will do with this game!
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Anyone got 'good' pictures of the Flying Frog martians? At least the Mantic pictures are clear and you know what you are getting... Just fancy a look, maybe a pre-paint......
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Anyone got 'good' pictures of the Flying Frog martians? At least the Mantic pictures are clear and you know what you are getting... Just fancy a look, maybe a pre-paint......
Here's the best one I've seen of the unpainted figures:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/822068/invasion-from-outer-space-the-martian-game (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/822068/invasion-from-outer-space-the-martian-game)
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Thanks for the link, helpful
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New teaser-
(http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/teaser-1.jpg)
New backer based stretch goals -
When we get 1750 Backers, we will produce a set of Burning Cattle miniatures (a 3D upgrade to the cardboard counter in the box that you can add to your pledge to use during your games! When the Barbecue on the Hoof card gets played, these models will stampede across the board, injuring – perhaps killing – anything in their path!
Every 500 backers after that, we’ll produce something new, wacky and cool – completely Mars Attacks – that you can use in your games.
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Weird, I only mentioned them in passing and they appear. lol
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A new "Fan Page" for the Game, like it - share it - spread the word. The more people who are aware, the more pledges we get, and the more stuff Mantic Will Make!
https://www.facebook.com/marsattacksgamefans (https://www.facebook.com/marsattacksgamefans)
Heres a "scaling shot" of one of the test Miniatures -
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1264805_10200520308762293_202980364_o.jpg)
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3 saucers for $50 (when we hit 250K)
This just got REALLY interesting!!!
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/999/923/68e215872e0045914d8bf373b05ef84d_large.png?1381254900)
Though I hope they are BIT bigger than the Griffin Miniatures ones. And at least they come with the domes, my major complaint against the other ones.
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That's where my credit I'll be going then. :D
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That's where my credit I'll be going then. :D
Probably mine as well. Well see what else they deliver in the next month, we haven't seen the giant robot yet! I hope they don't; focus TOO much on the human side as we can get tanks from plenty of places.
I know they are more War of the Worlds and less Martian attacks (Cards), but by any chance did walkers or drilling machines make the comics?
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(http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Saucer-5-485x283.png)
;D
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Well see what else they deliver in the next month, we haven't seen the giant robot yet! I hope they don't; focus TOO much on the human side as we can get tanks from plenty of places.
I think that will be the selling point, you can get a fair bit of stuff for the humans around and about, but flying saucers and the other goofy Martian stuff will be unique to that line.
I still want to swap out the modern US soldiers for 60's style ones, but the current crop of WW2 Americans just don't fit the bill for me... weird though it is that I should be a stickler for historical accuracy in this context.
::)
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I still want to swap out the modern US soldiers for 60's style ones, but the current crop of WW2 Americans just don't fit the bill for me... weird though it is that I should be a stickler for historical accuracy in this context.
You are not alone here, when I saw the modern troopers I was immidiately thinking "I need 50s or 60s GIs for that game!"
;)
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Gish darn it, I'm in. The extra 125 in swag for the pledge was too good to turn up. To think, for the same money in Road/Kill, all I'd get was 20 little d6 sized cars!?!
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I still want to swap out the modern US soldiers for 60's style ones
you absolutely nailed it, , I would LOVE this.
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I did ask for a b-movie pledge option but in fairness there are loads of appropriate 50's & 60's gi's and equipment out there though tbh.
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Actually there aren't. Barring Brigade Games's AC57 'Federal Defence Force', they are either too early (WW2 with 'spats' and short jackets), or too late (covered helmets, baggy jungle fatigues and M16s). The BG figures will work quite well for the 50s and for National Guard after around 1960, albeit they all have M1 rifles and one has a BAR... no carbines or grease guns.
The US Soldier from 1961-ish to around 1974 (except in Vietnam) had the M14 rifle, just like in the MA film (and Goldfinger). It's not a big deal overly, other than I've made it one.
::)
The BG ones are actually quite nice, they're Paul Hicks sculpts and look the part for most of the era. There's one BAR gunner and seven different rifleman poses (iirc).
:)
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For what it's worth, TAG have two packs of GIs with M14's and 'Nam era uniform which would work for the mid-to-late 60's.
Would the Artizan WW2 US great caot or FSSF chaps be of any use?
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The TAG figures look very nice, but with just two packs (one with packs, one without), I can't see anyone building a platoon for Vietnam games with them. The Artizan ones are too early looking too, even the FSSF... thanks for the suggestions though.
I'll probably 'sell out' and use WW2 figures, or take a Quixotic approach and spend my wargames life seeking them. ;D
:)
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How About Baker Company
Just looked and they are revising the web site. But the figures paint up well... Wish web sites that sell would do good quality clear pictures.
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To be fair, quite a few manufacturers have quite large ranges and taking photos and posting them is a massive chore, especially as their technical skills are often wanting. It does seem that the lack of photos is directly proportionate to how much you want to look at the figures though and the few photos you get are never the ones you want to see.
I've found that if a range is good, someone will have painted them up and there will an image out there somewhere though.
As Vietnam ranges go... TAG and West Wind take some beating by the looks of things.
:)
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OK - a Competition - you need to be a Member of the "Mars Attacks - The Miniatures Game" Group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/1425490744337457/ (http://www.facebook.com/groups/1425490744337457/)) and want to help "with the Cause" - the Prize an Admin Position on the Group itself (obviously I can't offer Toys as prizes, as the game isn't out yet LoL) - All you need to do is design a Poster, that can be printed out and used on the Mars Attacks Terrain. It can be a Movie Poster, a Martian Propaganda Poster, or a Earth Forces Rallying Poster - your Choice! The best produced will be Voted on (hopefully by someone special) and the winner gets to put up with my Lunacy as Admin - Some of you may recognize the inspiration for this Design . . . .
(http://i42.tinypic.com/11imr09.jpg)
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So your person pre-requisite for an Admin Team member is someone who can stay within the lines when colouring? Reminds me of how I got to be a Mod on here, but harder.
;)
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So your person pre-requisite for an Admin Team member is someone who can stay within the lines when colouring? Reminds me of how I got to be a Mod on here, but harder.
;)
No LoL, the other Admin has family issues at the moment - and that combined with people inquiring about helping out prompted the idea - I prefer "Felt Tip" personally, how about you?
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Non-toxic crayons here, I chew unfortunately... amongst other bad habits. :-X
It's a great idea though and I look forwards to seeing the entries. :)
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I just thought it might be fun!!
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I'm having to give serious thought to this weekend's one time Special... $300 in exchange for the game + $325 add on credit. No argument about the deal... can I afford it is the issue?
:?
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I'm having to give serious thought to this weekend's one time Special... $300 in exchange for the game + $325 add on credit. No argument about the deal... can I afford it is the issue?
:?
I can't - it's been an expensive couple of Months one way and another, plus I don't get paid till AFTER the KS ends :(
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On the plus side, some 200+ early birds opened up, and are getting redistributed with this new pledge level. Convinced me to up from the $100 to 140 and not have to figure out how to only do 50 in core upgrades. Today was a good day.
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I can't - it's been an expensive couple of Months one way and another, plus I don't get paid till AFTER the KS ends :(
Don't ask..... :D
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Don't ask..... :D
???
I've done it anyway, I can swing it :D
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???
I've done it anyway, I can swing it :D
;) lol
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Alright. I caved and jumped on the Bloodshed on the Battlefield pladge level. $325 worth of free add-ons sold me. I really want those Attack Saucers (Look like they will make decent Dalek Saucers as well).
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I was holding out at the $150 pledge till they announced the Escalation expansion this morning, damn it there goes $300. Now bring on the giant robots and insects.
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I was holding out at the $150 pledge till they announced the Escalation expansion this morning, damn it there goes $300. Now bring on the giant robots and insects.
Same here... I was at $140, but the expansion made me cave in as well. It defenitly can't be much longer before my girlfriend start to limit my kickstarter acces ;) (Which actually might be a good thing...)
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That Deluxe Terrain set, Saucers, Plus Robots! :-* This will be good. I'm definitely going to get a couple of the WF boxes of Korean War era GIs to replace my grunts though.
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I'm just glad they are listening to some folks with a bit of knowledge on certain topics...
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/075/264/dd96bc5cdf39a9dfe582364f2ca2fa35_large.png?1381522307)
If we hit this stretch goal, we will fund a US Soldier with Missile Launcher. The figure in the update is still work in progress because, as Jake Rose rightly pointed out, he should have a rocket launcher based on the Javelin! Thanks Jake.
Of course that Jake Rose guy actually suggested and AT4 or a Javelin. AT4 would have been better, they show up at squad level. Now if we can get a SAW...
;)
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Thanks Jake. I hadn't been paying attention to things lately, but an RPG on a US trooper is just lazy research. AT4 and SAW would be the preferable options for me as well. At least they are listening.
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Have you seen a pdf with the rules is available on the KS site? anyone tested them? any feedback?
A silly question about the plastic bubbles of the martians, how that can be glued without the "white smog" of the glue when dries?
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Plastic glue that bonds dissimilar plastic types. Use sparingly, and I would recommend the 'capillary method'
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PVA was recommended, presumably as it dries clear and doesn't cause fogging. In deference to my painting style, I'm going to attach mine with panel pins.
;)
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A silly question about the plastic bubbles of the martians, how that can be glued without the "white smog" of the glue when dries?
I Use Testors "Clear Parts Cement & Windo Maker" #3515
It works better than pva glue as it is a thicker gell, so it goes where you want it and it bonds stronger than pva.
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As a few people have asked I've put up some size comparison shots to various other Sf figs on my site (http://quirkworthy.com/2013/10/17/how-large-is-your-martian/).
If I've managed to work this out right there should be a sample below.
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Thanks for the picture. That's a bit of a bummer for me. I was hoping for figures a little larger to match the bulk of my PA collection.
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Thank you for the size comparison shot. I'm a lot more interested now. They scale up nicely with the Hasslefree stuff. It might help to see painted figures next to painted figures. (Then again, painted figures always scale better with other painted figures.) There's some kind of optical illusion happening with the different materials and bases that wouldn't be seen on a painted miniature.
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Hey Michka.
If you read some more of my blog you'll see that I'm just getting back into painting after many years doing none. I'll probably not have enough painted to show you useful stuff before the end of the KS. But then again I might be able to borrow something.
See what I can find.
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Thanks for that here too... although I would point out that Hasslefree females tend to be 'realistically' shorter on average than the males, even though you can see that from the picture anyway.
::)
They seem to match in with whatever I might plan to use them with, so happy days for me at least. :)
I still wish they had gone with a Sixties theme, although I did get a 'maybe' on a squad of 60's US soldiers as a nod to '50 Years of MA'. I'll be stoked if that happens... but I suspect it may have been a ploy to shut me up.
lol
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If you look at the Mars Attacks cards and comics they've always been set "now", whenever that might be. The styles of the troopers has changed over the years, but not to reflect anything other than the idea that the invasion is happening right this minute - turn on CNN and you'll see the saucers.
Also, the Martians have been visiting Earth for centuries and so you could perfectly reasonably field Aztecs or knights against them if you wanted to. There are individual heroes from those cultures in the comics and the game.
if you wanted to use 1960s GIs then there are plenty of models around. I don't think it would really make any difference to the game. Of course, if you could find a cheap bag of badly modelled, bendy "army soldiers" in some random scale then that might be the most appropriate of all. Those Mantic models are just way too detailed ;)
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@Donpimpom
"how that can be glued without the "white smog" of the glue when dries?"
I have heard that some people use a Little bit of mixed 2 part CLEAR Epoxy glue to glue clear plastic canopy's on plastic model aeroplane models.
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I was talking about this with a chap I know that worked in a model shop for decades. He said that they sold a glue especially made to stick clear plastic canopies on model aeroplanes. Apparently, that was just watered down PVA...
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I have always used PVA/white glue to stick canopies on Eldar vehicles and the like. It always worked fine for me and none have ever come unstuck or anything.
Thats what I will be using for my Martians helmets simply because its easy for me to get hold of.
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*snip*
if you wanted to use 1960s GIs then there are plenty of models around.
I'd disagree on that, unless you mean either proxy some WW2 or Vietnam figures as stand-ins. Domestic GIs had a 'look' of their own between those eras, which is the one seen in most War and Sci-Films of the time and indeed on my childhood Action Men (GI Joe to you colonials). Agreed on the game play aspect though, I wasn't planning on rule changes, it's all about the 'look' for me.
I will also admit I don't just want them for Mars Attacks, so that adds more fuel to the 'fire' of need.
But yes, MA is always set in the 'now' and if that was all I wanted to play, the 'modern look' works fine and I'm still [largely] content with how it's all going.
;)
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I was meaning you should proxy some in if the look was critical. I don't think it's practical for Mantic to do lots of different period GIs, nice as that would be. Pre-M16 you're still looking rather WWII for GIs, as far as I can remember. Certainly if you can get some Korea or early Vietnam figures you'd be fine.
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No, I accept it isn't practical and once you commit to one niche, the flood begins and it's "How about Revolutionary War" or whatever.
Early Vietnam or Korean War figures would work fine... but there very very few of the former and Korea is non-existent, surprisingly. The WW2 ranges all concentrate on the high 'spats' era, rather than the 'combat uniform and boots' look that came at the end and in the years that followed. If the biggest difference was that I had to accept that the guys had Garands rather than M14s, I'd happily live with that.
The look isn't critical to me playing Mars Attacks... I'm sold on that as is... but y'know? ;)
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I'd disagree on that, unless you mean either proxy some WW2 or Vietnam figures as stand-ins. Domestic GIs had a 'look' of their own between those eras, which is the one seen in most War and Sci-Films of the time and indeed on my childhood Action Men (GI Joe to you colonials). Agreed on the game play aspect though, I wasn't planning on rule changes, it's all about the 'look' for me.
I will also admit I don't just want them for Mars Attacks, so that adds more fuel to the 'fire' of need.
But yes, MA is always set in the 'now' and if that was all I wanted to play, the 'modern look' works fine and I'm still [largely] content with how it's all going.
;)
Only ones I have seen are the atomic cafe GIs, nice figures btw Hicksey sculpts :)
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Only ones I have seen are the atomic cafe GIs, nice figures btw Hicksey sculpts :)
I have some... and to be honest they pretty much fit the bill. They are also excellent sculpts indeed... but quite a limited and relatively expensive range for all that. As they go however, they have 'it'.
:)
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Lots of milestones met and we now have a certain Quirkworthy on LAF who just might be able to give us a little more of an insight into the game mechanics and what not.
;)
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I must admit his attempt at remaining incognito could have been better though. ::)
;)
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I'll never get my ninja badge now :(
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I'll never get my ninja badge now :(
lol Blog link kinda de-ninja'd you bud. ;)
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If you look at the Mars Attacks cards and comics they've always been set "now", whenever that might be.
While this is true about the cards (can't comment on the comics as I've never read them) don't forget that a sizable portion of the audience was introduced to MA through the movie, which was very retro, including the troopers. I know it was my first exposure to the story years before I learned about the original cards.
I know that the Mantic license is for the cards not the movie, but it explains much of the desire for the old school soldiers.
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Absolutely, and I understand that. The film was the first time I saw them too.
I can see why people want them, but Mantic need to stick to the IP as it's licensed to them. I wrote a post about this topic on my blog today. Actually, the Martians could be shown fighting against almost anyone as they've been sticking their domes in where they weren't needed for centuries :)
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Lots of milestones met and we now have a certain Quirkworthy on LAF who just might be able to give us a little more of an insight into the game mechanics and what not.
;)
Was their any particular flavour of whatnot you had in mind?
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Just useful to be able to Q&A if need be. Different to dead zone in play through, apart from the comedy element of course.
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I just got the update on the robots! Looking really nice. I'm so glad I sucked up the Bloodshed level pledge. I can't wait to field a bunch of pulpy saucers and robots.
Hey Q. I just had a thought, is there any chance of decals for the Martians' ships and bots for those of us free-hand impaired?
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I've had a look at the art and I can't see anything that you'd need a decal for on any Martian stuff. No logos, rank badges, etc. I'll ask anyway.
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Thanks. I didn't see any on the art, I just thought it would be nice to differentiate the 6 or so ships I plan to get with some kind of squadron graphic or something. It could be fake alien writing or somesuch. It's not a deal breaker just a query. ;)
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I mentioned it to the guys and they're having a look.
Speaking of which, does anyone know of decals for 28mm modern GIs? They're covered in badges, backwards flags and all manner of nonsense that's a pain to paint on that scale. If someone's already done it there's no point in reinventing the wheel...
Cheers
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I can't say I'm aware of any... but badges etc are usually in 'subdued' colours and unit flashes are usually removed in the field as an 'intel deniance' measure anyway... that's why they are usually on velcro. It's probably easier to paint them than f-around with minute decals anyway.
;)
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I remember using badge decals on the old Tamiya 1/35th scale figures, and though a bit fiddly they did make the model look good.
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I have the playtest rules, they were made available for download to backers. Are they up anywhere else so people can see them?
I'm not going to use them by the way so I only had the quickest of skims through. They look to be typical stuff, unimaginative comfortably familiar and conforming to some really tired tropes. True line of sight just annoys me. Short movement is a pain and removes any tactical play, move 3" and shoot or move 6" and get a free attack if you reach an enemy.
Shooting involves pretty pointless multiple dice rolling for an opposed roll with roll ups. The multiple dice give a tiny chance for more success that is more than compensated for by the time taken to roll them (this has been discussed before). The results are quick though which is good, dead or fine, no wounds to track for basic grunts.
Activation needs to be tracked by counters which is messy but probably unavoidable given the activation mechanics. Hand-to-hand fighting is more cost effective than shooting, you can move and fight as a single action but moving and shooting are two actions. Whether you'll ever reach an opponent is another matter, they can see you coming well before you're going to reach them, even on a 2' board.
The cards add various bonuses etc. The card deck is where the game could shine because it's such a malleable resource. The options at the moment are fairly standard.
The playtest rules have no stats for heroes but troops are differentiated by a stat line so there's plenty of room for variation. The stat lines do not seem to be needed during play for cross referencing. Yay!!
Obviously I'm not the target audience, my $300.00 will go towards fitting out a Martian army for my own rules and I'm looking forward to that. I do feel a small twinge of regret that this won't be a stand-out game (except for the great components which should make the box opening exciting). At the moment any real enjoyment will come from the payers' interpretation of the setting and the interaction they bring to the table and not from the actual gameplay. Reminds me of Fortress America in many ways.
Maybe this will change with the final, all singing all dancing rule book arrives.
Found the pdf: http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Mars-Attacks-Playtest-Rules.pdf
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Thanks for posting the link to the rules.
I can't say that I agree with your assessment of the rules, but then you're judging this on "the quickest of skims" and I've played it with several dozen people (and I wrote it, so I'm biased). Of course, there is no single size that suits all perfectly, so it may well be nothing like your cup of tea. However, saying that short movement "removes any tactical play" in simply untrue. The "pointless multiple dice rolling" system has been used in 3 other games previously and has been generally well received for its speed of resolution and engagement of both players. Many reviewers pick it out as a positive feature.
As I said, it may not be your cup of tea, but if you haven't played it then it seems unreasonable to bandy about such harsh criticism.
Simple does not equal simplistic.
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Why did you choose three dice + extras instead of one? I'm all in favour of opposed rolls and I wasn't commenting on the involvement but why three dice? This just seems to add more working out for very little additional game effect. I don't like mechanics that do this because they're dishonest, they pretend to involve players in meaningful interaction but actually just take up time and make the game pointlessly longer.
I'd like to read some reviews to see what others think. Links?
'Simply untrue' is not a rebuttal without at least one example. 'Removes tactical play' was admittedly shorthand forced on me by the format of a forum as opposed to a verbal discussion or an article. I'll expand. If troops crawl across a board towards their opponent their objective is easily determined. There is no option for feints, bluffs, distractions or surprises, hence no option for tactical play. A player is forced to decide on an objective and then (slowly) bulldoze towards it whilst the enemy, equally aware of the planned objective, have plenty of time to stop them.
The rules also don't allow for pinning or denying the enemy options so the only way to gain an advantage is through firepower. 'Shooting lots' is not a tactical option, it's the only option.
Incidentally, why did you choose true line of sight, what are the advantages over area cover given the playing board is already gridded?
I don't think my criticism was harsh, nor was it meant to be, it was merely an observation of the mechanics provided.
Simple does not always equal simplistic.
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Fair points. If you don't mind I'll write a full answer in a few hours. I'm supposed to be playing a game right now and it's rude to keep the enemy waiting :)
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Absolutely, no rush at all. We're a civilised lot here.
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For my mind, the game is unusual as it attempts to integrate previously non-gamers under its umbrella, as well as people used to both 'buckets of dice' type sets, as well as those used to more complex systems. You can't please everyone with such a wide target audience, so there will be complaints of both 'too simple', 'too hard' and 'too stupid', amongst probably several others.
I admit that flowery prose can detract from trying to get a point or argument across, but Matakishi, it did look kind of terse... only the point that it was you posting it convinced me I got the 'tone' wrong on first reading it.
:)
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As mentioned, accurate insignia would be black on tan so would not show up at this scale, but if you wanted colored insignia there are WWII decals from Company B.
www.companyb.biz/ (http://www.companyb.biz/)
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Ah, sorry, then, I try to be precise rather than flowery and maybe terseness results :)
I really don't think my opinion on a set of rules holds any more value than any one elses (except to me of course) but I am always interested in why design decisions were made. There is no right or wrong but I am wary of decisions made through ignorance rather than conscious choice.
When I asked Alessio Cavatore why he used true line of sight in Warpath he responded with 'what else is there?'
My main disappointment was, as you point out, that this game could be an entry point for some and I was hoping for something a little less generic and a little more 'Mars Attacks'. The rules as written could be used for anything, there's nothing special about them which is a shame. There's nothing wrong with them either, they will achieve their objective alright but just not in a very interesting way.
The obvious response to that is 'well what would you do if you're so smart?' and, at present, I have no answer because I haven't given it any thought. I read the rules hoping to be shown something but that 'something' wasn't there. I will give it some thought though because my Martians will need something when they appear on my tabletop :)
I hope the game succeeds so I can buy many more miniatures for it.
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Ah, sorry, then, I try to be precise rather than flowery and maybe terseness results :)
I know you didn't mean any offense, but it's still got to sting if it's your baby out there on display. lol I would have said "comfortably familiar" versus "unimaginative" but six of one half a dozen of the other.
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I know you didn't mean any offense, but it's still got to sting if it's your baby out there on display. lol I would have said "comfortably familiar" versus "unimaginative" but six of one half a dozen of the other.
You must have misread it, I did say comfortably familiar...
:)
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Been there myself... preciseness can be misinterpreted and the internet robs us of tone of voice and facial expression. I personally sometimes feel a bit silly having to add in 'smilies' too.
::)
My perspective is somewhat similar to yours... it's mainly about the toys. I took the view that if I didn't like the rules, then I'd use the information contained in them to 'adjust' a rule set I do prefer, to suit my game style. If the 'game rules' worked, then it wouldn't matter obviously. I'm not of the mind set to be able to create a set, but pretty fair at modifying them to suit myself.
I don't need them to conform to any form of generic base either (but I wouldn't really know if they did in this case), nor do I need any form of 'crossover' mechanism (although a lot of people do). I'd prefer MA to be a totally standalone game with its own unique rule system.
Although I saw MA as an 'entry-level' system for new gamers, I didn't actually consider any aspects from that perspective, just my own... hence the ambivalent attitude over whether they'd be any good or not. It would be good to establish a 'break' from the 'usual' fare though. All respect to the GW-Mechanic, but it does sometimes give the impression that most rule sets of this genre are almost always the same actor in a different costume. Still many people like that, as it eases the learning curve into a new game.
I do find 'line of sight' does have shortcomings... besides giving flashbacks to a time where I thought building a tabletop periscope would be really handy. Figures naturally struggle to make the best use of cover and there is a tactical advantage in buying only kneeling figures for your forces to be had for the sneaky player. Players tend to micro-position their men on the table, rather than there just being an assumption that they are making the best use of whatever is immediately around them.
We'll let Q get comfortable though, then we can grill him properly under the spot lamps... :D
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You must have misread it, I did say comfortably familiar...
:)
It's like you have a time machine! lol
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You must have misread it, I did say comfortably familiar...
:)
It's like one of those mass hypnosis things... 'cos I could have sworn it was different too... eerie. lol
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Honestly I have to confess i'm following this project for the plastic content, and while reading the comments on this thread I'm guessing that I'm no the only one planning how to use it for other projects. But I also think it would be really cool if the game stands for itself and proves to be fun and enticing, I really hope so. Considering the KS is already a success even before its gone, I think you (Quirkworthy) have the opportunity to really shine on this without the usual doubts of a creative process thinking about how it would be received, what people will say about, etc etc.
some of you are talking about this game as "an 'entry-level' system for new gamers"
do you really think this is a entry level game? why?
because it is a well known Ip? are you talking specifically about the US market?
I can understand the MA trading cards and the comics can be a popular reference in the US and attire a nostalgia factor, but in europe I really wonder how many people could be in this bucket.
At least in Spain I can assure you the only Mars Attack product known is the Tim Burton movie, and even so, it's a 15 years old movie.
I'm merely asking this because some times the concept "lets make it an entry level game" its a marketing trap leading to products that do not satisfies anyone, nor veterans nor newcomers.
All that is not a complain (if something looks weird blame my crappy english) I'm merely thinking aloud while trying to imagine how this game can lure my 14yo nephew into gaming
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I think the hope is that because it's packaged more like a board game and hopefully will be sold where other Topps items get sold and not just in Wargames shops it will reach more of a a non-wargaming audience. This may well not be the case. I don't personally bother too much about evangelising the hobby but in cases like this where it might happen anyway I'd like to think we were putting our best foot forward.
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Mantic have posted a video showing gameplay.
http://vimeo.com/76938826
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I played the play test rules today with the kids (6yr old boy & an 11yr old girl) using plastic freebie Silurians from the Dr Who mag & cheep plastic toy soldiers & they both loved it. I didnt read the rules fully before so missed the re-roll 8's, I think that needs some clarification as on the Video they re-roll all 8's & it seems to me that it only states for shooting in the rules (the D8 thing is a bit annoying as i only have 2!!) they didn't want to stop at 8vp's though only total destruction of oned side would end the game for them, then tot up the VP's!
some of the cards need to be written a bit better as they can be a bit confusing. They both picked up the rules easilly enough though.
Over all though they both really enjoyed it & want another game.
I agree with what has been said though that there is nothing that really makes it stand out as been Martians vs Humans, but I suppose that the correct mini's would help.
The thing that puts me off though is a boxed game that comes with a paper game mat? I think that it should really be a foldable card board. I know that you can change iot in the pledge levels but surely it should be better quality as standard especially if its aimed at none gamers.
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The deluxe gaming mat target has been met as an upgrade so it should be in the box as standard.
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Rules? The things got rules? Oh jeez, I don't stand a change :(
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I touted it as an 'entry level' game, purely because the 'audience' includes not only gamers, but also fans of the cards, comics and movie... some of whom have never played a game of this type. The rules are meant to be simple-ish, but that does not necessarily imply they are no good. GW's Lord of the Rings was also an 'entry level' game in the same sense and I think there are few that will say that they aren't a good rule set... some will argue that they were in fact better than the actual Warhammer ones.
:)
*Edit* - It's a paper mat in the game, the deluxe mat goal added it as a 'core add-on', which costs credit. Having seen the demo video for the type of mat it will be, I'm sold on it though.
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According to the list on the kickstarter page it's an upgrade, just like the soldier poses and extra characters. Things like the saucers that aren't in the game box are listed as add-ons. Now I'm confused about what I'm going to get. I tried looking through the announcements but there's 9 pages of them and most of the text is waffle.
No doubt I'll order the wrong stuff at the end just like I did with Judge Dredd because their list was confusing too.
*edit* Right, I've found the entry (by clicking on the mat entry in the front page list) The expanded entry contradicts that list and says the mat is a core add on. I suppose I'll have to check all the ones I'm interested in again just to be sure.
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Given that things change, I've given up trying to work out what I'm going to get, other than upping the pledge to cover the Atenociti stuff. I'll leave it until almost the end to decide and then do so very carefully...
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Given that things change, I've given up trying to work out what I'm going to get, other than upping the pledge to cover the Atenociti stuff. I'll leave it until almost the end to decide and then do so very carefully...
I seem to recall some Amazon hiccups on the last day of really big kickstarters. don't wait too long.
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The actual ordering is done by e-questionnaire after the end and if I recall correctly Mantic have previously given backers the option to increase their pledges after the end anyway. I'm pretty much all in for what I can afford, so it might be a fortunate event if there was a last minute foul-up.
lol
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Hi folks,
my, you have been busy. I'm sorry if I appeared a bit defensive earlier. "Being civilised" in the internet is a rare and confusing trait to come across and I wasn't prepared for it.
Anyway, there are several points to cover, by several people, so I'd best get started. Let me take them one at a time. I'll try to be brief to keep the length of this post down a bit. It's already going to be quite long. If you want more explanation then please ask.
Is it an "entry level" game?
Yes and no. As we are dealing with an audience that is bound to be partly made up of non-gamers (coming to the game from a knowledge of the comics, film or cards) the game must be reasonably straightforward. In that sense it is an entry level game. However, I design games that I want to play myself, and as I've been playing games for well over 3 decades I can't call myself a neophyte any longer. So the game is also designed to be interesting to me and my normal group of experienced gamers. In that context it is a "light" and fast playing wargame with a number of tactical decision points and resource management questions to retain the interest of a more experienced player.
You won't have seen all of these yet because what has been published as the Beta is just that - it's not the finished thing. The current state of the full rules includes more choice and tactical options. Heroes, in particular, add a lot. The challenge is keeping it simple, for the newcomers, whilst being interesting. It will never be Squad Leader, but then it isn't appropriate that it should be.
Why does it have a paper mat?
Cost. Paper mats are not as nice as heavier card or plasticised fabric ones, but there is a very big difference in price. The paper mat works perfectly well, and making a more elaborate mat an optional purchase allows people to choose whether they want to spend the extra money or not.
Why are the rules not more "Mars Attacks"?
I've been working on Eternal Battle for many years, and that's a generic game engine for skirmishes in any background. The question of how you theme a game and what it means to be a WWII, Pulp or Mars Attacks game comes up often. To answer that backwards, imagine you have a game, let's say it's a WWII game. Take away the imagery and the art, remove the specific terminology for weapons, people, places and so on. What do you have left? How is that different from a Samurai game you had similarly stripped? I think the answer is hardly at all. People are people through the ages, and have codes of conduct and honour, similar fears, needs and fighting abilities. Unless you are dealing with a very detailed model of combat, shooting, fighting and defending yourself is a broad and timeless set of concepts.
In the context of Mars Attacks, the art, models, background, scenarios, event and other cards are all based within that genre. When a Martian shoots a human with disintegrator and they die or they don't, how should that be mechanically different from a member of the Old Guard shooting a Prussian Landwehr? Again, unless you're dealing with details of different loading mechanisms or terminal ballistics I don't see it makes much odds to how the rules should work.
So the challenge is not one of making this a Mars Attacks game, but in making any game true to its theme. To re-clothe the WWII and Samurai games we would put back imagery, art, specific terminology and so on. The same works for Mars Attacks.
If you have any suggestions on how to add more "Mars Attacks" to the game other than those listed, I'd be happy to hear them.
Why roll 3 dice instead of 1?
Bell curves, old bean. At least, that's part of it. You probably all know this already, but just in case...
When you roll a single dice there is an equal chance of getting any result. The most extreme roll is as likely as the average. Every time you add a dice to the mix, the odds change in the direction of making the results at the end of the possible numbers less common compared to those in the middle. So, if you roll two six-sided dice together, you are more likely to get a total of 7 (the average) than any other number. You are least likely to get either a 2 or a 12 (the extremes). The graph of these results has the shape of a bell, hence a "bell curve".
I used a combination of maths and experimentation to settle on 3 dice as a standard for yielding a set of results which kept the desired balance of average and extreme results.
There are other benefits of the three dice, but this is the core one.
Is there any tactical play?
Matakishi said that he thought there was no opportunity for tactical play, and I disagreed. I'll explain why. Matakishi said:
"If troops crawl across a board towards their opponent their objective is easily determined. There is no option for feints, bluffs, distractions or surprises, hence no option for tactical play. A player is forced to decide on an objective and then (slowly) bulldoze towards it whilst the enemy, equally aware of the planned objective, have plenty of time to stop them."
And
"The only way to gain advantage is through firepower."
If you played like that against someone who has understood the tactics then you would lose. There is a lot more than that going on. For example:
1) Cards. Both players have cards they can play throughout the game (and each deck is different, again giving character to the different sides). These cards can do things such as move a friendly model again or stop an enemy model from moving at all. This makes the movement rates and positioning less predictable.
2) Scenarios. The first scenario in the Beta rules is a simple one to show people the core rules. Many scenarios give opposing sides different, not merely opposing, objectives. This means that you will have to choose between spending your efforts thwarting your opponent or achieving your own goals.
3) Heroes. You haven't seen these yet. However, one of their main roles is to upset apple carts and do unpredictable things, just like heroes always do in comics and movies.
4) Sequencing. Even in the basic game the order in which you activate your models is often critical. Weapons have ranges, and letting the enemy advance into your range allows you to shoot with an aim bonus where he spends his time moving instead. Of course, time pressure may force difficult choices and you may not always be able to hunker down and wait for the foe. In fact, the scenarios are designed to make this a poor choice unless the objective requires it.
5) Attack mode. Martians are better at shooting than GIs, but have shorter ranged weapons. GIs are better at fighting up close (and Martians have easily broken goldfish bowls on their heads). This will not be true for all types of troops on each side, but for the basic troops this is so. That being the case, whether to close or not, and whether to shoot or fight is a decision. Sometimes it's better for a GI to pile in, and at other times he's better off standing off and shooting with his mates. At least that way he can't get killed in his own turn.
Each of these elements allows a skilled player to subtly alter the odds in his favour. By using all of them the more skilled player will win the bulk of the games he plays. The fact that the game is skill-based rather than luck based is shown by playtesting. If it was reliant only on luck then everyone would win half the time. That doesn't happen.
Why use true line of sight?
Personally I don't like the term "true line of sight" because that's what GW call it in 40K and the Mars Attacks rule is importantly different. It also has a taint of argument about it which I devised these rules to avoid.
My aim was to have the simplest and most intuitive LOS system possible. I experimented with a series of rules that used the grid for LOS, but found that all of them had situations where the model either looked like it should be a possible target and wasn't, or didn't look like a clear shot and was allowed. If you don't mind things looking wrong then grid based LOS works OK, but I always think the point of putting models on the table is so it looks good. The other thing about grid based LOS systems is that people always have trouble with working out the diagonals and firing past corners. This comes up a lot with things like DUST Tactics or Dwarf King's Hold, for example.
So, I reverted to what I'd do when I was a kid. Simply ask yourself "can this model see that one?" Look from the head of the model. If it can "see" any of the target model then it has a shot. If it can see all of the model (including its whole base) then it gets a bonus. That's the Mars Attacks LOS rule. As you can see, it's very simple. In fact, most of the time when people get confused about it it's because they're imagining it to be more complex than it really is.
The main difference from the GW rule is that they disallow certain parts of the model. You must be able to see the torso, legs, etc and it doesn't count cloaks, hats or whatever. I can't remember the exact lists and they aren't important. What is important is that it's easier to say "can I see any of it" (Y/N) than debate whether this bit or that counts as list A or list B. The GW "true line of sight" rule ("can you see the right bits of the model") seems to me to build in arguments.
Any LOS system has times when the line is on the cusp. That's unavoidable. This system is the same one as used in Deadzone, and during all the discussion of that nobody was able to suggest anything that was simpler to use. If you have a suggestion then please let me know.
Questions?
I'm sure I'll have missed something. If so, please ask away. I'll try to explain the whys as well as the whats. Also, I'll be using some of these questions as catalysts for some articles on my blog at Quirkworthy.com as they're all worth talking about further. I'll post a link when they go live.
Thanks for the interest ;)
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Q, This sounds good. One more question on the game mat. If I get the expansion but want the better quality mat then I would need to spend enough credits to get 4 of the rubberized game mats in order to make them match, correct?
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Q, This sounds good. One more question on the game mat. If I get the expansion but want the better quality mat then I would need to spend enough credits to get 4 of the rubberized game mats in order to make them match, correct?
I'm afraid I'm not the best person to ask about pledge details, Dave. I do the game bit and leave Mantic to do the Kickstarter bit. You'll get a more reliable answer if you post up on their comments section (of the KS).
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Apologies in advance for the lack of quotes, I can't get the hang of multiple quotes. I'll paraphrase if I may.
Designing games you want to play. Good show, that's a major part of good game design, if only others would do it.
Taking everything back to basics. There isn't much that a Samurai Game and a WII game have in common, even at the most basic level of human motivations. The differences between a Samurai and a WWII infantry man, even a Japanese one, are pretty fundamental especially concerning their ideas of life, death and what's worth dying for; all things that are pretty much at the forefront of their minds on a battlefireld. Moving up a few levels to their tactical doctrine makes them almost unrecognisable to each other. Ignoring the fact that soldiers do not act alone unless they're on their own (and then they usually don't act at all) in order to claim that we're all the same and always have been is a lovely idea but not a valid one. It's changing the facts to fit an idea.
The miniatures in Mars Attacks all operate as individuals, there are no mechanics in place for them to support each other (other than the +1 for CC). Why then do their commanders choose to deploy them in squads?
What would make the game more Mars Attacks? Well, not the equipment, as you rightly say, that's already there. Behaviour and attitude is the key as in any game. Why are the Martians here? (I really don't know by the way, I'm only familiar with the cards not the expanded comic/film background and they're just cyphers in the card universe). Their reasons and motives should be reflected in their VP allocation. I have no idea from the game so far as to what makes a Martian different from a Human.
The Humans are defending their home. Killing Martians, capturing Martian tech and rescuing civilians are obvious motivations and seem to be adequately represented. But that's the easy faction.
Bell curves. No. Unless you add the results there is no bell curve. Your three dice mechanic does not weight the probability over using a single die.
When you make the dice numbers unequal such as the +1 die for aiming you completely skew the probability because an unopposed die is, for a Human, twice as good a shooting die than a normal shooting die because it's unopposed. It's even better for a Martian.
What 3 dice does do is increase the probability of rolling an 8 and therefore adding another die to the mix. Each added die is still twice as good as an opposed die though and confers a massive advantage. Quite the opposite of removing extreme results. A single opposed dice roll would eliminate this spike in the weighting.
I'm trying to see other benefits in a three dice system but they're escaping me at the moment.
Tactical play. I appreciate there are no heroes included and I realise they will add special rules to the mix. Will they add tactics though? Card play isn't tactical, it's based on the luck of the draw. It adds colour and flavour but not tactics. While the miniatures in a force continue to have no interaction with each other you are not going to be able to introduce tactical play. Unfortunately nothing you mention in your examples can really be considered a tactical choice.
'Should I run up and melee the Martian of stay here and shoot him?' isn't much of a choice. If you run up he could kill you, he has a hand of cards that can easily give him the ability to negate your +1 to melee advantage and he'll be rolling dice. Even if he plays no cards you only have a 12.5% chance to kill him. If you stay put, aim and shoot you have a much better chance of killing him, 62.5%, thanks to the extra aiming die, with no risk to yourself at all.
True line of sight. My point here was that with a grid you can place a piece of terrain in a square and count models in that square as being in cover. This allows for protective cover. The current system only allows for obscuring cover, cover that interferes with a sight line whereas protective cover is much easier to adjudicate and removes most of the usual arguments.
Finally, thanks for taking the time to reiterate your position, it's always good to have a chance to ask questions and get real answers as opposed to the company line. There's no 'cheering' icon, you'll just have to imagine it :)
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I'm no rules guru... but I've always wondered why generally there is no 'opposed' roll for shooting? Okay logically you might say you can't dodge a bullet, or it's the skill of the shooter, but in real life, the skill of the target does come into play, in a way that can't be represented by a 'game token'.
Figures don't peek round corners, they don't pop out, shoot and then duck back... they stay where you place them for the whole turn. While the inexperienced 'Rambos' and 'John Wayne' types might step out into the open and blaze away, the more experienced make better use of cover. Okay, sometimes the John Wayne types get lucky and the veterans get unlucky, but the point remains that everything does not come down to the skill of the shooter alone.
Only on a target range is shooting ever 'unopposed'... it actually degrades by the power of ten when you take a guy away from that and put him in a normal field exercise situation (it degrades even further if vehicles and tanks are involved). With real bullets and real danger you can imagine the reduction in effectiveness I would think. Add into that, that a potential target is also trying to avoid being shot, then 'unopposed shooting' becomes a bit unrealistic.
Please remember pretend you are speaking to an idiot if you reply. I don't do bell curves and odds. ;)
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Perhaps we're differing in our definitions of things like tactical decisions. To go through the sections in order...
Back to basics
I agree that the world view of different cultures varies, but I don't think that much of this actually impacts what is being modelled here, nor in most skirmish level games. Much of what I read is memoirs, and whether Japanese or American there are way more similarities than differences in the main drivers of individual warriors. If we compare our imaginary Samurai and WWII games again, you say that there is little they will have in common. Sure, once they are finished. But at the level of mechanics they will be much the same. How will movement differ? men walking or running is the same, whatever their uniform, equipment and period. If my soldier tries to kill yours with a missile weapon I have to (in some mechanical way) decide whether I hit and how much damage I cause. Personal belief and culture doesn't enter into this. When acting in groups there is also a similar dynamic across history. This is the sort of theme explored by Harris or Keegan in their various books on soldiers and commanders: the similarities of humans in combat throughout history.
Some of the military heroes will allow their troops to behave in more coordinated ways.
In a background sense, the Martians are there for a variety of reasons, depending on which bit of the martian hierarchy you ask. The individual grunts seem to be very drone-like and obedient to their bosses (hence no morale rules for them running off, despite massive losses). Motivation is, as you suggest, shown by objective (VPs) in the scenarios.
Bell curves
Actually, yes. Remember that what you compare to your opponent is the number of successes. Rolling multiple dice allows you to use the bell curve to make average numbers of successes more likely than either all or none. You don't need to add the dice results to get a bell curve of probability. Rolling 3 dice, on a 50/50 roll per dice, the chances of getting exactly 0 success is not the same as getting exactly 2 (it's three times higher). It's a very short graph, but it's still there. This then allows me to use the statlines of the differing troops to calculate average and extreme outcomes of different match-ups, knowing that average also means most common. Also, with 3 dice as the norm, additional dice can be added, or dice removed, without being as overpowering a modifier.
A single opposed dice roll is less flexible and less able to deal with a large number of different heroes and troop types in this approach (ie without additional stats). It's a perfectly workable mechanic, but is built around a different model of where to put the complexity in the rules.
Oh, and you wanted review links. I don't tend to keep them (Google is my friend), but someone just sent me this earlier today: http://www.shutupandsitdown.com/blog/post/review-dreadball/
He doesn't mention the dice mechanic in detail, but he does mention tactical choice, etc. DreadBall uses this same core 3 dice mechanic.
Tactical play
It's a shame we can't do this face to face as demonstrating tactical choice with the game in front of us would be so much easier.
Cards are, of course, drawn at random. However, this does not stop their use being a tactical choice. Cards are a resource that varies per game (random draw) but is taken from a fixed set (so a learnable style and mix of options). When I am dealt a card I don't have to play it immediately or at all. I can choose to use it, hold it for later or discard it and make room for something else in may hand. That sounds like a choice to me. And it's an important choice because the cards you keep can be built into the way you play your models, the actions they take and sequence they are activated in.
If you played a game where reinforcements arrived on a random turn would that preclude the manner of their employment being a tactical choice once they arrived?
I'm not sure where you get your 62.5% chance of killing a Martian with shooting. That sounds awfully high. Remember in your calculations of the different values of the actions that the Martian's armour works against shooting and not against fighting.
True LOS
The previous game I wrote for Mantic was called Deadzone and that is a much more detailed SF skirmish game on a similar gridded board. That used the same LOS system but added cover squares in a similar manner to the one you suggest. The first version of Mars Attacks also had cove, but during playtest it always bogged down play. Models tended to advance to cover and then just sit and shoot. Whilst this was entirely credible it wasn't much fun as a game (and wasn't very "Mars Attacks"). So I took it out.
As I said earlier, this is tricky because of the medium of debate. I'm sure we'd have a much easier time sorting through this face to face ;)
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I'm no rules guru... but I've always wondered why generally there is no 'opposed' roll for shooting? Okay logically you might say you can't dodge a bullet, or it's the skill of the shooter, but in real life, the skill of the target does come into play, in a way that can't be represented by a 'game token'.
Figures don't peek round corners, they don't pop out, shoot and then duck back... they stay where you place them for the whole turn. While the inexperienced 'Rambos' and 'John Wayne' types might step out into the open and blaze away, the more experienced make better use of cover. Okay, sometimes the John Wayne types get lucky and the veterans get unlucky, but the point remains that everything does not come down to the skill of the shooter alone.
Only on a target range is shooting ever 'unopposed'... it actually degrades by the power of ten when you take a guy away from that and put him in a normal field exercise situation (it degrades even further if vehicles and tanks are involved). With real bullets and real danger you can imagine the reduction in effectiveness I would think. Add into that, that a potential target is also trying to avoid being shot, then 'unopposed shooting' becomes a bit unrealistic.
Please remember pretend you are speaking to an idiot if you reply. I don't do bell curves and odds. ;)
In Mars Attacks the Shooting roll is opposed (by the target rolling vs his Survive stat) :D
As to why this is not more common, It's probably just down to the style the designer prefers. Personally, I happen to like opposed rolls as I think it's more involving and exciting for both players. That's why you see it in a lot of my designs.
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And I'm on board too.
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Chatting is better.
However, just to return to the bell curve; it isn't a bell curve unless you add the results because a bell curve is built by the sum of the totals. The probability result that you will succeed with more dice rolls goes up in a decreasing arc but never falls again. It isn't a bell curve and there are not extremes at either end.
Further more, since the dice are paired on both sides (until extras are added in by special circumstances) each opposed roll has the same chance of success as any other.
Needing a 5 or more to succeed on a D8 has a 0.5 chance of success each time, rolling another dice next to the first at the same time does not influence the roll of either dice. Although you do have a greater chance of rolling a single success with three dice than you do with one- 0.5, 0.75, 0.88 (1,2 and 3 dice respectively) the fact that you have an opponent rolling his dice and comparing the totals reduces the probability back to 0.5 per die and 0.25 that any roll will be an unblocked success (if your opponent also succeeds on 5+) because the opposed nature of the contest removes the cumulative effect.
Once you add in an extra die with an unopposed 0.5 success chance you are really skewing the probability and 'just adding another die' is no small thing. However, see later...
As for the shooting example I did indeed overlook the Martian's armour. Bloody hell :o
The chance of success with the armour is 0.25 (the armour which adds an unblocked success, not just an unblocked die, is a massive advantage adding a certainty into the mix). This is still the better option as it's twice as good a chance as meleeing and still involves no immediate threat to the Human.
Just going to pause for supper...
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In Mars Attacks the Shooting roll is opposed (by the target rolling vs his Survive stat) :D
Oh darn... yet another abject lesson in why I should get my facts right before I post. ::)
;)
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OK, let's not call it a bell curve if that term is confusing things. What is important is not the name, but the fact that there is a greater chance of ending up with a number of successes in the middle of the range than one at the end of the range. You have a greater chance of ending up with one success than zero. That's not debatable, it's just the maths, and that is purely a feature of rolling multiple dice rather than one. That change to the ratio of extreme to average end results is the one reason to use multiple dice rather than one.
As you say, rolling a second dice does not influence the result of the first. Nor do I need it to. I am interested in the total number of successes as the result of the player's action. This total is what is compared to his opponent. Now you also say that because it is an opposed roll the probability is always 50/50. Whilst our imaginary test dummy's situations and stats are identical, I'm afraid that isn't the case in practice.
Opposed rolls of exactly equal opponents in exactly equal situations will, obviously, generate a 50/50 overall result on average. However, that situation (almost?) never applies in the game. What happens 99%* of the time is that models with disparate numbers of modifiers and with different stats roll off against each other. In this situation, the ability to influence the ratio of extreme to average results is a useful design tool - a design tool I am entirely without if I stick to a single dice roll. Single dice roll tests are simply less easy to manipulate and have fewer opportunities for different troops, situations and events to tweak. As a designer I'd rather have more tools with more flexibility than less because that's going to allow me to more easily model a wider variety of different troops, heroes and situations.
Martian armour - bloody hell indeed. It's why they have fewer models in the first scenario :)
*I can't actually think of a situation in MA where opposed rolls are identical, but there may be one I've forgotten about.
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It seems unkind and a bit pointless to reply and point out again that you have no understanding of probability. The fact your paraphrasing of what I actually said completely misses the point shows I'm not making myself clear. I apologise, I spend all day teaching maths and don't feel like doing it here as well.
I hope the game does well and I hope Mantic keeps on producing miniatures for it. The rules as written allow people to play a game with the toys in the box and that's all they need to do.
I'm not convinced there's room for any longevity and I don't find the setting or gameplay interesting as it stands. Who care? I'm going to spend money on the toys and be happy enough. I'm sure Mantic will be happy to take my money.
Let's hope it's a success!
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Indeed. A success means more toys in the world for us to collectively play with, which is not a bad thing :)
You teach theory, I do practical application within a tiny niche field of use. We'll have to agree to differ on my understanding of how this works. In the end it doesn't matter about the whys and wherefores behind the rules, only whether people find them entertaining or not when they get them on the table with their Martians and saucers. If you don't, but enjoy the miniatures, then that's a win for you regardless. The fact that there are multiple routes for people to enjoy this (and many other) Kickstarter projects is what makes them popular and, I think, makes the gaming hobby in its widest sense fun.
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If we all liked the same thing the world would be a boring place.
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If we all liked the same thing the world would be a boring place.
Only if we all liked something boring.
;)
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omg what a lot of long reads, all very interesting, I can't resist to throw my constructive two cents.
I really like the board uses a grid, my group of players use to complain about skirmish games because they have to use the measuring tape to track distances (pansies!!). In fact, the truth, is they have the visual deep sense of a cyclop.
What I dont like is the visual perception of how the game develops (in the video) every model is hidding under a coverture, obviously trying to get the biggest possible benefit of the coverture rules, looks like the LOS system forces the playing style.
While looking the MA cards, comics or even the movie, martians always walk fearless in open spaces, their invulnerable attitude makes them fearsome, I miss that feeling in the game, yes martians have an armour, ok, but even so, there are all the martians hidden under covertures moving from wall to barrels in the same way the marines do, of course players try to take max benefit of the rules, but then the martians attitude looks weird to me.
Silly idea: what if the benefits for seeing all the model are only applicable to martians? if a martian sees the 100% of the marine model get a bonus, if a marine sees the 100% of a martian there is no bonus, then martian player can openly walk around the board, this means each player can have a different play style and the game is different depending wich side do you play
Question:
- There are rules for destroying scenery? buildings collapsing by heat rays etc
- Will be shrinking rays? could be fun to replace models by 15mm soldiers as reduced marines ;D
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It's an interesting point, and I know what you mean about the arrogance of the Martians. How to squeeze that into the game?
At present, people are used to hiding models behind cover and so reflexively carry on doing that. I think they would probably carry on even if it wasn't giving them a defensive bonus. Of course, snuggling up to a wall also lets you see over it at the enemy and so isn't just about protecting yourself. This dual purpose rather muddies the issue.
Martians already have armour that gives them a very big bonus to survivability. That made no difference to player's behaviour. Taking away any detriment to them standing in the open might make them able to do so, but doesn't actually reward them for doing it (and so I suspect most players still wouldn't stand in the middle of the road so much). It also has the disadvantage of being contra-intuitive, especially being applied to one side and not the other. You're right, it is an interesting point. I'm just not convinced we've found the right answer yet.
Destroying scenery is something I'd like to do. The problem is just the practicality of doing so in the middle of a game with physical model scenery. I'm looking at ways to get this to work with some of the very big weapons. Not promising though.
Replacing models is unlikely, but shrinking rays is another fun Martian weapon. This is possibly something for one of the Martian heroes.
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In Mars Attacks the Shooting roll is opposed (by the target rolling vs his Survive stat) :D
As to why this is not more common, It's probably just down to the style the designer prefers. Personally, I happen to like opposed rolls as I think it's more involving and exciting for both players. That's why you see it in a lot of my designs.
I wrote a loose set of rules for fantasy that used opposed die roles for shooting and combat. I think it is more used in historical sets such as Fire and Fury etc. If used correctly it is indeed more fun.
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It could indeed be a historical/fantasy thing.
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The 'using cover' thing is a facet of how it's impossible to remove perceptions from gaming. We all have centuries of military tradition that pervades our idea of what 'war' is. In theory the Martian perspective might be different, but short of rustling up an actual Martian player, we can't replicate that.
In modern warfare if the enemy can see you, he will almost certainly kill you, given that he has a variety of weapons available to choose from to do so. We conceal and camouflage in various ways, we develop technology to defeat that, we even design items to remove the cover of darkness. Even in times where weapons were somewhat short-ranged and armies did blaze away at each other in the open at short range in brightly coloured uniforms, it was still understood that cover and concealment had their uses, if not always practical given the weapon ranges.
Some societies have a tradition of it being 'manly' to stand in the open, or to act in certain ways that eschew 'cowardly hiding', but we as players invariably use cover when it's there out of ingrained instinct. Short of trying to force someone playing the Martians to throw all that away by the use of a 'rule gimmick', I can't see how you could strip a player of his 'common sense'.
Good question though... :)
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The mcguffin could be negative modifiers for the Martians if they use cover as it goes against Martian battle creed?
Maybe the lure of capturing a human or probing a cow impacts on their modus operandi and they become less able to effectively follow commands that deviate from the mission, (ie why hide behind puny earth rubble hiding from primitive weaponry when there are specimens to capture! :D).
Just an ill thought idea.
The Commander
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You may have something... there are obviously no Martian walls... only canals. Raised cover might be a totally alien concept. :D
There being a 'warrior code' might be an idea, something along the lines of Bushido, for which there are no VP for killing something from cover. Obviously the 'stealth Martians', like Ninjas live outside of that code... maybe?
:?
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Some intriguing thought, and I am tickled by the idea of Martians coping better with canals than walls. The challenge is devising something that would replicate this, be very simple, make visual as well as game-play sense, plus preferably offer some sort of choice.
I think penalising Martians for shooting over walls is going to be too awkward as the board is full of walls and almost every shot is over one or more. Perhaps standing back a little and being a little more abstract might work. I'm thinking of a card that the Martians can play in front of them like a Heat ray. It's called Brazen, and as long as it's in play the Martians strut down the middle of the street with impunity. In game play terms the humans don't get a +1 bonus for a clear shot. This goes back to what was originally suggested, but because it is a card that needs playing rather than an automatic benefit it requires some effort to gain the advantage. People always value things more if they've had to make the effort to get them, so they are more likely to use it. It's not a huge thing, but being able to stand anywhere to take your shot is quite useful. As cards can also be countered you're still taking the risk that it will disappear and the enemy will shoot you with a clear shot bonus (when the Martian suddenly realises he's kind of exposed). Thus you have choice of whether and when to play, whether and when to counter and whether to risk using it - all skill based choices.
It's a little abstract, but I'll try it out. If you want to you can add it to the deck and try it too.
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The challenge is devising something that would replicate this, be very simple, make visual as well as game-play sense, plus preferably offer some sort of choice.
*snip*
It's a little abstract, but I'll try it out. If you want to you can add it to the deck and try it too.
It actually sounds far better than a blanket ability to be honest and obviously its effect will vary, depending on the troop types using it. I'd imagine having Martian Marines 'Ramboing it out' could be quite something and of course goes some way to offsetting the abilities of the heroes you've developed (besides saucers and GSRs obviously) for the humans.
Taking that opening, I must say I really like that the two opposing forces 'play' quite differently, 'Heroic' versus (virtually) 'Faceless Oppressors'. It seems to work on several levels too, so the Martians don't feel obliged to field the heavy stuff in every game, to offset their lack of heroes.
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It's an interesting point, and I know what you mean about the arrogance of the Martians. How to squeeze that into the game?
At present, people are used to hiding models behind cover and so reflexively carry on doing that. I think they would probably carry on even if it wasn't giving them a defensive bonus. Of course, snuggling up to a wall also lets you see over it at the enemy and so isn't just about protecting yourself. This dual purpose rather muddies the issue.
Martians already have armour that gives them a very big bonus to survivability. That made no difference to player's behaviour. Taking away any detriment to them standing in the open might make them able to do so, but doesn't actually reward them for doing it (and so I suspect most players still wouldn't stand in the middle of the road so much). It also has the disadvantage of being contra-intuitive, especially being applied to one side and not the other. You're right, it is an interesting point. I'm just not convinced we've found the right answer yet.
Destroying scenery is something I'd like to do. The problem is just the practicality of doing so in the middle of a game with physical model scenery. I'm looking at ways to get this to work with some of the very big weapons. Not promising though.
Replacing models is unlikely, but shrinking rays is another fun Martian weapon. This is possibly something for one of the Martian heroes.
have a look at how Akky did the buildings for his Battlefield Bad Company table, that had destructible buildings that were easy enough to use in game.
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Link?
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It's buried within this one I think: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=24832.0
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oh well the akulas table is awesome, but I was thinking in something easy to apply at the scenery in the box.
For instance:
The scenery is split in two types, large and small walls. Large are the pieces with two clips on the side, and small are the ones with only one clip.
If a larger piece is hit and damaged it is replaced by a small size piece, if a small size is hit and damaged it's removed from the table.
To avoid turning it into a wrecking game only a certain type of weapons can endure damage on scenery (lets say only heavy weapons and heat rays, etc)
IMHO that would give players the possibility to actively change the shape of the board during the game and force your opponent to move in case he is a camper snipper
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Akula's table is indeed impressive. A very nice system for buildings and well worth using for something :D
Unfortunately I think the sculpting/planning for the MA scenery is too far along to adapt it to this design at this late stage. For the really big weapons I'm experimenting with removing whole buildings at a time. That does limit how you set up a table (walls have to be grouped in "buildings"), but then that tends to make it look better anyway, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/233/461/3c14e91180f1f8016e45d408c788f517_large.jpg?1382629862)
:D
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Yeah, I just saw that on the KS. Made me come over all Roswell....
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WHICH WAS A WEATHER BALOON! !!! Remember?!!!
(Shhhh they're watching. ....) o_o
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Yeah, that's right. Weather balloon. Of course.
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That photo is so faked... come on guys, its so grainy and out of focus... it could be anything. ;)
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That photo is so faked... come on guys, its so grainy and out of focus... it could be anything. ;)
...but it's probably a weather balloon.
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... or mass hysteria generated by an individual's latent weather balloon phobia, hitherto undiagnosed. Sufferer's 'block out' the shape of the weather balloon and mentally replace it with an image less fearful to them, like a cloud, or an extra-terrestrial space vehicle, which by coincidence matches the same description as that given by another sufferer thousands of miles away.
But yes... still a weather balloon.... or marsh gas.
:)
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Sounds plausible.
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(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/238/610/adbdb046eb6c98a1656d72e9c9553ecd_large.jpg?1382724053)
:-* ;D
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Although it's not my thing... I have to admit the TC (and indeed everything else) are looking pretty good. I may be turned from my 'just the Martians ta' stance yet. ;)
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As this thread is about 'Mars Attacks', which includes flying saucers and discussion of UFOs it would be related, even by the terms of the discussion board;
"anything directly or demonstrably related to the hobby, for example photos from your recent museum visits"
:)
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C'mon throw me a bone here... it said 'for example'... ::)
:)
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Roswell is full of excellent ideas for this game. Took tons of photos of weird UFO stuff at the museum there including an excellent UFO recognition chart. 20 minutes in that joint and you would have all the background and motivations for the aliens you would ever want and then some. Not to mention a slew of good images for the art team.
Unfortunately I cant post some of the better ones up as roswell is not a wargame and thus falls into 'shooting the shit' which is fully banned here now. Buy a plane ticket and check it out for yourself is my advice.
I think you're being a bit of a tit tbh. ;D Yes This place is well moderated but not draconian as you're making out. Anyway if you think you'll fall foul then start up a ufo ref/resource thread ::)
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This place is well moderated but not draconian as you're making out.
It is a bit... I have a special uniform I wear when moderating, it has a Sam Browne belt and shiny boots... gets me in the zone y'know?
;)
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LAF is nowhere as bad as Dakka or Bolter & Chainsword.
So on-topic: If I pledged on this at $300 do I get the expansion automatically with the core game? All the updates are confusing the hell out of me and I wasn't very smart to begin with.
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To be honest when I started this reply I was sure about the right answer, but after some minutes trying to understand their graphics to verify my answer, now I'm confused too o_o
Why all the KS pledge pages always looks so messy?
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I was at Mantic today and we were talking about the KS page. The tricky bit is that some people find them clarity itself as they are now, others find them OK and still others find them opaque and confusing. Whatever you do, there is no size that fits all.
Personally I find almost all the KS I've seen less than crystal, but I think that's mostly me.
I haven't tried this, but isn't the idea of the pledge manager thingy to help clarify what you get for a pledge? It was on the front page last time I looked.
If that fails, just put up a comment. There's always one of the folk who understands knocking about to answer this sort of question.
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Well not much I can say to that apart from I don't think it's as bad as u make out and if you're expecting a poor response then maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak :?... Anyway nice little Google link cheers
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I stand with Scurv.
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Nobody needs to stand with anybody... we don't do sides here and all members carry equal weight as regards complaints and any action taken, for and against. It might not seem like it sometimes, but I assure you that is the case.
:)
I'm not offended BTW just pointing out the reality.
You sound pretty offended to me, maybe not by CV's comments, but clearly you're not happy. I'm not the Mod for this board, or the forum owner, but if you have any complaints, by all means feel free to drop me a PM and vent at me. I can't promise to be able to resolve the problem... but I will listen.
:)
Now Mars Attacks! ;)
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Now Mars Attacks! ;)
Quite.....
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/260/399/bed0fac0ef636e2c8c64e700cebf866b_large.jpg?1383172146)
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This one rocks it for me. :)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bNJSMPcHlgM/UnQwWmYdH8I/AAAAAAAAP9M/TK0B2F1s5Qw/w737-h493-no/mars_attacks_colour_shot_5.jpg)
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Yeah nice. :-* not long to go now
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Reminds me of the old saying that "I may die in a ditch, but hopefully it will be in a pile of brass."
This one rocks it for me. :)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bNJSMPcHlgM/UnQwWmYdH8I/AAAAAAAAP9M/TK0B2F1s5Qw/w737-h493-no/mars_attacks_colour_shot_5.jpg)
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Or the tacky pop song "Trouble". Terrible as the song is, I think "uh oh, we're in trouble" kind of sums things up nicely
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Can anyone explain to me why this kickstarter seems to be stalling? Reading the comments sections it seems like they are losing backers. What's causing people to pull their funding?
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I've been following it closely and I haven't a clue. I don't think it's one specific reason either. :?
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It's probably folks that threw in at the start even though they were on the fence. For whatever reason the KS campaign doesn't live up to their standards so their pulling out. Usually this is offset buy folks piling in at the end. I don't know, maybe it's just a timing thing.
I for one have completely lost track of all the extras and options and might pull my pledge as well. I'm not a big fan of the "pledge with credit" scheme they've done with this one. I just don't have time to keep up with everything.
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I went in at the start and upped to the comicon $300 level but have been considered pulling it back. A big issue to me is all the pledge booster goals that don't use the credit from the pledges. I upped to the $300 one because I saw all the previews of the Antenocits resins being made and then found out I couldn't get them as part of the pledge. Makes me consider dropping back to the $150 level every time I see a pledge booster post. The latest updates showing a 1 click get everything bundle for the $300 and $150 levels is at least making me stay at my pledge for the moment, but apart from the playmats I'm not seeing a huge difference between what you get for double the investment.
The kickstarter overlapping with the Reaper Bones II and the impending AVP one sometime soon is probably straining budgets too.
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I think that's the 'AVP Kickstarter Effect'TM. All the current KS will feel the impact of that one :'(
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I think that's the 'AVP Kickstarter Effect'TM. All the current KS will feel the impact of that one :'(
Really? Somehow I don't see it...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1480452196/academical-village-peoples-avp-newest-a-cappella-a-0
lol
I'm actually thinking of upping my pledge from $150 to $300. I'm just trying to convice myself I need that many martians.
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Really? Somehow I don't see it...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1480452196/academical-village-peoples-avp-newest-a-cappella-a-0
lol
I'm actually thinking of upping my pledge from $150 to $300. I'm just trying to convice myself I need that many martians.
Wow, that's really more scary than Aliens or Predators :o Nice find!
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Im impressed it got Funded LOL!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYvyRSyZxX4
This was necessary. ;D
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Can anyone explain to me why this kickstarter seems to be stalling? Reading the comments sections it seems like they are losing backers. What's causing people to pull their funding?
Some people on Dakka Dakka are disappointed they haven't seen the production models for Deadzone yet and are worried there may be similar problems to the poor quality of the Men at Arms models from the Kings of War starter. Because of this they are pulling their mars attacks funding as they don't want to take yet another risk with mantic unseen unseen.
Alleviating some of these fears these were posted by James from mantic.
http://www.marsattacksthegame.com/images/deadzone-components.jpg
http://www.marsattacksthegame.com/images/deadzone-assembled.jpg
They look really nice.
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I'm not going to drop off. But I wish it was easier/cheaper to get more of the vehicles and scenery than the miniatures.
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Damn. Now the wrecked cars can't be purchased with pledge credit. >:( I was looking forward to those. I'm not adding any money as the $300 I've pledged is ridiculous enough.
I assume Antenociti will be selling those wrecks as normal in the online store?
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Can anyone explain to me why this kickstarter seems to be stalling? Reading the comments sections it seems like they are losing backers. What's causing people to pull their funding?
Hopefully the backers suddenly grew brains and thought "oh god, why am I funding this junk?"...that's what I hope anyway lol
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And it just keeps falling. $468K now. Fascinating !
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Damn. Now the wrecked cars can't be purchased with pledge credit. >:( I was looking forward to those. I'm not adding any money as the $300 I've pledged is ridiculous enough.
I assume Antenociti will be selling those wrecks as normal in the online store?
Even if he does, beating the KS price these guys are selling them for will be really hard. I promised I would not add to my pledge for anything 'credit' couldn't buy, but am now considering lowering my pledge and getting those just to take advantage of that price.
There are a couple real winners on the comments section. You would think there was a conspiracy of Real Bad People Who Hate Mantic and are purposely bidding and lowering/dropping bids just to show How Much They Hate Mantic.
I love folks like that. Offer logical reasons or facts and they double down on stupid.
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Even if he does, beating the KS price these guys are selling them for will be really hard. I promised I would not add to my pledge for anything 'credit' couldn't buy, but am now considering lowering my pledge and getting those just to take advantage of that price.
There are a couple real winners on the comments section. You would think there was a conspiracy of Real Bad People Who Hate Mantic and are purposely bidding and lowering/dropping bids just to show How Much They Hate Mantic.
I love folks like that. Offer logical reasons or facts and they double down on stupid.
You're right on both counts. I really want those cars, and the price will likely never be lower. Decisions!
I was just laughing at the commenters myself.
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I'm tempted to say a few people double pledged to get unlocks and then reality began to bite. Others are just habitual KS backers... you should check out the amount of projects some of them currently back. Others are just a variation of coupon fanatics - I can't believe the amount of 'nickel and dimeing' there is there some days, right down to almost choosing an option based on a one cent advantage.
lol
As for the cars, one would have been purchasable with credit - the 'thrown one' (with the mc partly underneath it), had the stretch goal been achieved, while the rest have always been touted as additional pledge buys. They are still cheaper than retail though.
The crossover potential of some of the stuff is appealing though, which is why I upped my pledge initially... or at least that's how I justify it to myself anyway.
;)
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I have some hard thinking to do on this one. Right now I have one of those BotB pledges, but especially if they lose the robot, there just isn't enough I want to spend $325 on. Even with the robot I am having trouble. It is a great deal IF you want multiples of some of the stuff. Had they allowed us to use it on the cars and other terrain I could blow through it.
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I have some hard thinking to do on this one. Right now I have one of those BotB pledges, but especially if they lose the robot, there just isn't enough I want to spend $325 on. Even with the robot I am having trouble. It is a great deal IF you want multiples of some of the stuff. Had they allowed us to use it on the cars and other terrain I could blow through it.
That. Realy unhappy that pledge credit isn't full credit. Cancelled my BotB last night. Might put it back but this limited credit use hss really pissed me off, also everything I get sucked into delays my own plans so I think a littke js moratorium may be in order. Oh and I'm not likely to back AvP either.
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I went for the BotB too, increased my original pledge for the option of the great value extras. However, like many here, I want the cars and I'm thinking I can buy them from Ant n' Dec for far less than my current pledge level. I've spent an hour working out what I want, what I can get and what I'll get that I'll need to offload or bin and I'm still not sure whether to continue pledging.
Maybe it's telling that the items I most want aren't from Mantic at all.
Apropos of nothing in particular I'll outline my dilemma here just because I can :)
I might want the Martians, I do want the Martians but I'm not sure how much I want them. I'll need to use the game miniatures to make a basic force but obviously I'll need the 'special' troops too and I need to buy 2 sets of each type to make usable units for my chosen rules. The Science troops only seem to be included in a bigger package at the moment which also has loads of stuff I don't need (it does have a crashed saucer though, which is a pledge add-on itself, so a bit of a saving there). I'm not sure I could sell the maps and ruins that are also included in that upgrade so they're bin fodder because I wouldn't use them.
I'd need 2 sets of Marines and 2 of the Stealth and 2 of another set with odd masks whose name escapes me. Maybe I've already covered those. Whatever, it makes a force of 50-60 Martians to paint up in order to have a working tabletop force that doesn't make me feel I'm missing something every time I field it.
I want saucers, probably 3 because they're usable for lots of my stuff. I want a single robot but I'll buy 3 and sell 2 since the price is so good. I don't really want the trucks as they look a bit odd to me but I'll probably get 3 in case I'm wrong. 3 means I have a better chance to recoup some cash if they are crap. I like the bloke on the flea but all the other humans are meh. the troops are crappy looking and of no use to me. More sale threads coming up. I have no need for the sci-fi humans either.
The included barricades and street furniture look ok but the other add-on street stuff is too expensive to bother with. All the walls and buildings are worthless to me.
I'd spend some money on a few sets of burning cattle and civilians in principle but there are no actual pictures so that's a gamble, they might be poor. Their character will be the deciding factor and at present there's just no indication of what that will be. I'm not sure I'm willing to take the risk.
I'd like the ants but they don't look like they'll be included.
My pledge plus add-ons for the cars and crashed saucer comes to about £220. I think I can spend less than that once everything's in production buying the bits I want. The lure of lots of stuff for practically nothing is a strong one though and I can afford the £220.
I really can't decide but as crunch time approaches I find myself more and more reluctant to part with cash up front.
Well, thanks for listening, I feel better now I've talked it through with someone :D
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Lol.
Same thing with me mate, although I want all the urban scatter stuff for my zombie gaming. Saucers are nice and all and I really wanted those wrecked cars. Pledge credit should be credit to use during the pledge with no exceptions.
I think I'm going to stay out. Use some of my numerous diecasts to make a wrecked scene or three.
Less money on kickstarter projects = more chance of getting sone of my greens cast. I know which one us if more importance to me.
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Well, thanks for listening, I feel better now I've talked it through with someone
Glad I could be of use.
;)
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I don't have time to troll through all the comments. Has Mantic made any statements as to whether or not unlocked goals get relocked?
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I don't have time to troll through all the comments. Has Mantic made any statements as to whether or not unlocked goals get relocked?
They are/were/have planned some announcement on this to make it clear. I've not been following the comments and such but my guess is that they wouldn't re-lock.
@Matakishi - the civilians haven't been made yet which is why you haven't seen them. I'd expect them to be in a similar vein to the heroes, ie a non-"heroic" style.
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Thanks Quirkworthy. Solid answers even if bad news is better than uncertainty.
Just my personal opinion, but I would think that keeping goals unlocked would set a very bad precedent as it would just encourage people to purposefully pump up their pledge and then dump it near the end.
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Perhaps, but they've just said this to answer your question officially (taken from KS comments):
"Second thing we've decided:
Everything we've hit already (Edwyn, Co-op play rules, intact buildings) is now LOCKED IN. We will fund it even if we drop back, so NEVER FEAR! We will add new stretch goals to replace those ones because they're done and dusted."
So not only have they locked in what's already been tagged once, they're going to add some new stretches to replace them. Is this a dangerous precedent? Who knows? But it's happening ;)
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Arch, this is one of those places where my morels clash with my own self interest. As a pledger that's good news but I always hate to see decisions that are sure to encourage future bad behavior.
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This is all part of the dilemma :)
I like Mantic but I'm still not sure there's enough core stuff to interest me in this kickstarter. I'd feel bad pulling out though because they're doing all the right things as far as pledges and backers are concerned. I realise my withdrawing isn't going to register with Mantic but I'd still feel bad about it, these Kickstarter things are a two way street.
Oh well, still some time to decide...
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Im in at The Invaders Arrive Early Bird plus $50 and I am likely to stay there. That should give me roughly one-of-everything, plus the DreadBall team that I want. That gives me an achievable number of martians and auxiliary stuff to paint that I can immediately use in Deadzone and Mars Attacks before I shoehorn them into my other games. Ditto for the terrain. The humans dont interest me much, but if I can get a few boozy, co-op multiplayer MA games in using them then I am fine with that.
That cross compatibility will keep me in til the bitter end this time: the gaming value is high for me. Pus I want those ants for my alien fauna project: they look great.
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I have to say it's good to see some people still have an understanding of what a 'pledge' is supposed to be. :)
I'm in somewhat the same boat as Cheetor. I wouldn't normally spend so much on a single game system in one go, but the cross-compatibility means I can justify the expense in this one instance.
My pledge is in and there it stays, unless Mantic were to renege on what they have said I will get... which is obviously not going to happen.
:)
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Dunno...
First, I think there are a number of fairly good product up for grabs right now and folks may be shifting funds to get a piece of the action in more than one. I believe this is commonly known as "competition."
As for pledge levels, I would think they should re-lock stretch goals, not just because of the "precedent" but because such things can quickly take on the appearance of manipulation. Thus, what may be good for Mantic and what is good for the Kick Starter organization, may not be the same.
I wonder if the Kick Starter folks themselves are pondering the situation or have some sort of policy in such cases?
Certainly an interesting situation but hopefully Mantic will be able to get some more wind in their sails and push past all this.
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Had they allowed us to use it on the cars and other terrain I could blow through it.
This is why they the comments section of a KS is so very important to both the vendor and the buyer.
At this point I would say, get in there and make a case for what you want. My limited experience with kick starters seems to show that they listen. And they may listen even more if they are really determined to get more pledges.
And don't forget the update section. You can comment there too and there is a lot less noise.
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I wonder if the Kick Starter folks themselves are pondering the situation or have some sort of policy in such cases?
Essentially I believe it is up to the Vendor's discretion... it is after all they who have to produce, or not, the items concerned. I think KS only step in if things are funded and not produced.
On another note, I do wonder how long it will be before money is taken at the time of pledging though and KS moves to become a genuine 'pre-order' system. Certainly the question of stretch goals being unlocked and then backers pulling out would be moot at that point.
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I stayed in and I'm glad I did. They just added a bunch of free stuff for my BotB pledge today. The shrunken marines and robot w/shrink ray are fantastic.
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The shrink ray always makes me smile. I was wondering whether it would make it in.
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I seem to have upped my pledge rather than back out. It's because I'm old and senile that I can do these things and still live with myself ;)
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Essentially I believe it is up to the Vendor's discretion... it is after all they who have to produce, or not, the items concerned. I think KS only step in if things are funded and not produced.
On another note, I do wonder how long it will be before money is taken at the time of pledging though and KS moves to become a genuine 'pre-order' system. Certainly the question of stretch goals being unlocked and then backers pulling out would be moot at that point.
Unless vendors/project creators are all complaining, and stop using Kickstarter, I'm not sure Kickstarter has much incentive to change anything. They get their cut...
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'If' such a thing was to happen, it would certainly be driven from the vendors. Nevertheless there certainly are a strong contingent of $1 'Lookie Lous' on KS, who seem to like nothing better than to comment and drive a game in the direction they fancy through the comments. Exactly how many go on to buy a game, I couldn't begin to guess, but when you get people who have backed 500+ projects, I'd imagine it to be quite low.
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I seem to have upped my pledge rather than back out. It's because I'm old and senile that I can do these things and still live with myself ;)
Thanks for the support Matakishi.
Don't knock senility though - it might fall over and hurt itself ;)
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Wow... so you can pledge for Deadzone terrain too now.
and, erm... this;
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/303/153/b087a305e75bcc677e9104a70ebafbc5_large.png?1384006052)
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It looks like for a $1.00 pledge I can buy any of the add ons I like....
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That's always been the case I think... and your $ is included in that. :)
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Love the very Pulp nature of this kickstarter :)
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Ainsy stuff here I come, they're a great deal!
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I dont understand how it works. . I have pledged and I don't want the human troopers or the lorry - how do I deselect them and add more Martians? ??
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You can build up your own pledge. You're stuck with the soldiers in the base game, but after that you have a free hand.
Handy Guide: http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Guide-v0.6.pdf
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I dont understand how it works. . I have pledged and I don't want the human troopers or the lorry - how do I deselect them and add more Martians? ??
Surely it's the big stompy bot you're after ;)
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Glad they finished with the retro human troops. Most of the comments seem to be positive now. I am still suprised by all the bile and negativity that was coming through strong a few days ago from what I'm sure was a vocal minority of backers. There was some unnecessary rudeness throughout the later stages of the campaign. I think Mantic did well to mitigate it and not respond emotionally to it all.
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Glad they finished with the retro human troops. Most of the comments seem to be positive now. I am still suprised by all the bile and negativity that was coming through strong a few days ago from what I'm sure was a vocal minority of backers. There was some unnecessary rudeness throughout the later stages of the campaign. I think Mantic did well to mitigate it and not respond emotionally to it all.
Very well Said!
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It was my first and probably last KS and it has pretty much blown me away... the Retro troops was the icing on the cake for me. I didn't notice too much bile and negativity... unless it was me doing it and I didn't notice. I prefer 'constructive criticism'. I do admit to being one of the vocal minority though, it became very clear that 'if you don't ask and then keep asking, you don't get' was the order of the day on the comments there.
;)
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some really great stuff for this i have to say, pity im skint!
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Scurv! They add in your retro troopers right at the end!
Need me to get you a set?
Jake
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I'm very pleased with this one. I'm torn now on how to spend my credit. Really want the retro guys though.
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I'm very pleased with this one. I'm torn now on how to spend my credit. Really want the retro guys though.
Me too!
I wish I could loose the modern ones... there are sooooo many better models for that!
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Well there are only ten in the boxed game, so you don't have to take any more of them. I'm planning on using mine for Zombie games, where indeed some of the heroes may also make an appearance. I just hope they are of a similar size to the Wargames Factory survivors and zombies. :?
I'm just glad they made the cut at all. :)
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Well luckily you've got a while before you have to decide what you want your exact mix of goodies to be. You might find that there are some more images to help you choose by that point :)
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I wish I could loose the modern ones... there are sooooo many better models for that!
Not in plastic.
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Not in plastic.
If they were hard styrene and multipose figures I would be more excited about the material. As is, there are a lot of great metal moderns out there. These will be cool for this game and of use to other folks for other things, but they are not going to be market changing by any means.
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If they were hard styrene and multipose figures I would be more excited about the material. As is, there are a lot of great metal moderns out there. These will be cool for this game and of use to other folks for other things, but they are not going to be market changing by any means.
I agree on the metal. I have some of the Empress moderns, and while those are great figures, they are also mono pose (but have separate heads) and I game in constant fear of bending or breaking off those oh so thin gun barrels. I agree the MA modern troops aren't anything to jump for joy about, they are certainly useful figures.
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Is there pics of the retro troops?
Not yet, I think they showed one of the old cards as their concept.
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Is there pics of the retro troops?
Nope... Obviously how they look is pretty important to me as well (button counter and proud!) ;)
If they are in the combat boots and fatigues of the mid 50s to mid 60s, I'll go for them and that's pretty much the deal breaker for me. Ideally I want M14 armed guys, but I'd live with Garands, Carbines and Grease guns etc... the cards feature both and I realise it's possibly equally as important to other people that they be armed a certain way.
There is a thread on the Mantic forum about them already: http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?5855-Retro-US-Soldiers%21
Whether you agree with me or not, I like discussing stuff like that and Mantic are likely to base the finished product on potential customer feedback. Regulars there will know whether this is the case better than a newb like me.
:)
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"Doubled the money" Scurv?
That sounds a bit over-egged, but I take your point. It's a rare business that makes no mistakes though. You've also forgotten that MA is a licensed product and that the core of that license is set in contemporary America, not the 1960s.
I had a discussion with the Mantic guys today about these retro troopers and they've got to check with Topps to see what period they can/would prefer doing.
Arlequìn - I did warn them about button counting too ;)
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Absolutely agree that marketing serves a purpose, and that games companies do very little of it (and might do better if they did more). The issue, as ever, is resources to do the research in the first place which have to be prised away from so,etching else like paying sculptors or whatever.
And I'm still not entirely convinced that the retro is as big as you think. One thing on the net is the unbalancing nature of the vocal minority. How much is real mass opinion (and thereby valuable market research) and how much is a shouty few? Hard to know.
Having done a little bit of polling and questionnaires and analysis of same I can tell you that what people say they want isn't always what they actually buy when you turn up with the products. Seen that more than once in the gaming world. Campaign packs are a classic. Often asked for, seldom bought.
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I think you have a fair point Scurv, I just don't think it's going to get taken up much. Mainly that's cost. Even if it (theoretically) repays itself back manyfold, you still have to have the cash up front to invest and be able to find more time and cash to change and react to the results. Few game companies are set up for that.
At least, that's my opinion ;)
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I can only comment as a consumer on this, but I'm not going to let that stop me. lol
I think it's fair comment that maybe 9:10 people will buy whatever is pushed at them, whether it's by a company*, or in fact the vocal minority in some cases (for example, somewhere like Dakka Dakka had an appreciable effect on backing). Also see the effects where that same vocal minority has a downer on a product for a certain reason, whether real or imagined.
*Obviously brand awareness has its effects too. 'Known' game companies tend to have an easier time than unknown ones.
We are in the process of moving on from the time when a company invented a game and setting without any customer feedback during the design process. The mechanisms are there now and whether they want it or not, companies get feedback on what they 'show and tell' and not all of it is purely the blind adoration of fan boys (or indeed fan girls, which in itself now alters the application of in-game features). Indeed GW goes to great pains to try to blinker its customers against even the existence of alternative product... a bit like King Canute ordering the tide to turn though.
I have wondered how 40K would have looked, had its formative years been spent in a world of instant internet approval or disapproval, rather than GW just showing up with a finished product on a take it or leave it basis. I think it's probably a safe bet at least, that Space Marines™ wouldn't have flared leg armour.
While I wouldn't deny Mantic had a firm hold on the development of what the game would be, it was also certainly responsive to 'community opinion'. That this 'community opinion' consisted of a vocal minority also became very clear... the bulk of backers were asking about how the credit system worked, or were 'nickel and dimeing' the various deals to get the optimum value and not offering their views or signifying what they wanted 'their' game to be.
On matters of 'what' should be in the game, outside of Mantic's vision for the game, 'community input' was a case of a small percentage of backers arguing the toss between themselves, with Mantic then judging like Solomon after hearing the various arguments presented. I'm not being critical of the process btw, as short of continuously polling every backer, on every piece of input required (which would probably have resulted in about 95% 'Don't Know' or 'tell me what I want' responses), I don't see any other way it could have been done... but it was hardly democracy at work (I accept the irony that I was one of the vocal minority in a couple of cases btw).
As for the 'Retro' question, I don't think we will ever know how popular MA would have been if it was pitched on the original cards. In UK and Europe, 'Mars Attacks' relates to the movie... the cards and comics being virtually unknown. We do have the tradition of similar types of 'Alien' from 50's sci-fi movies... but again specifically 'Mars Attacks' as a concept, not so much.
The popularity of the KS in Europe stems entirely from the internet promotion by Mantic and TOPPS, and I suspect it would have been just as popular in whichever form it took. It's in the US where the real buzz and funding is likely to have come from though and with the exception of those who remembered the old cards and retro-geeks, setting it in the modern era was almost certainly the right call commercially.
Having followed the KS from the start, I did note a change in the 'public' attitudes of Mantic and TOPPS towards retro. Firstly it was 'no way' and "it's all going to be based on the new cards and comics". When '50th Anniversary commemorative' was mentioned... the attitude softened slightly, until it was clear via the lack of comments that there was little support from the 'community'. Ronnie mentioned the possibility of them on TGN and a couple of other backers mentioned them in the comments... but no massive outpouring of support.
That's pretty much how it was until the last couple of hours of the KS, when it was announced that a squad of retro soldiers were going to be added as a stretch goal, then all of a sudden a lot of people wanted them and there were only a couple of people against the idea. Previously whenever it was mentioned, only a couple of comments would be registered for and against. I took this as 'No opinion'.
Make of that what you will, for me it was a case of instant demand based on Mantic offering product, rather than a genuine desire for retro-soldiers from the masses. Had they offered a scabby canine companion for one of the heroes, it probably would have generated the same 'want'. This begs the question that, if Mantic had offered a 'Classic MA' game instead of a modern themed one, would it be 'Mantic' (i.e. 'Brand') which sold the game, or 'Retro' (i.e. 'Theme') and my money is on it being the brand.
If the above seems somewhat harsh in places, imagine I put a lot of smilies and winks in there, I just didn't want to dilute what I was trying to say... ;)
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Oops... got carried away there and forgot this...
Arlequìn - I did warn them about button counting too ;)
I hope you didn't use me as a specific example... I don't mind making a name for myself, but I am somewhat concerned that the name used around Mantic might not be too complimentary... I erm... was a touch 'assertive' at times. ::)
;)
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I'm sorry if i gave the impression it was entirely down to Topps. I can't say that for sure. Perhaps it was, perhaps it was a misunderstanding, perhaps it was one of those things that gets done without anyone really knowing why - it just gets a momentum all its own for no single good reason and then everyone accepts it because that's how it is. I'm sure we've all seen that happen.
As I said, I'm not entirely convinced that there was a legion of people who would have remortgaged their house if it had been retro. WOuld it have made more if it had been retro from the start? Maybe it would have. In either case, it's done now and both are available for those that want to choose.
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Marsian Ambassador: Ack! Ack! Ack!
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the other thing is I want you to know I dont think mantic does not have a clue what its doing. In fact I think more often than not you guys kick goals and when you miss you take it on board and fix it.
Your space orx being an excellent example. The sculpts from the first sets and the DZ ones are galaxies apart and for the better too. Wish you had bought them out before I did crap tons of conversions on the original ones to make a blood axe army though. lol
The reason you chaps get more scrutiny than the others is because I buy your products and actually use them instead of just storing them in the shed. Considering the amount of gaming crud I buy that aint faint praise either. You are up against a lot of competition to get a look in on the gaming table.
I'll pass on your comments on marketing.
You do seem to be criticising the idea of learning from mistakes. If the Orx weren't as good as they could have ben and were then reworked and improved for later products isn't that better than sticking to the poorer ones come what may? I thought listening and learning from mistakes were good things.
And the fact that the models get table time is indeed an accolade :D
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yes its over now. I think it would be fair to say though that in order to have a retro game I will have to buy after market trucks and if pedantic 50's civs as well. Both of which can be done no worries.
What would be so wrong with that any way? It's what I plan on doing, safe in the knowledge that I will have more or less what I wanted and something quite different from the 'Mass Market' Game itself.
:D
The important thing to me now is ensuring that the 'retro troops' at least look something like soldiers from c.1962 and not just yet another set of generic WW2 American soldiers.
::)
However the point remains that, if sales of retro soldiers are significant, are Mantic likely to ignore that and not produce additional packs to support retro players? I think it will be the case that if retro is wanted, folk will have to put their money where their mouths are.
;)
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What would be so wrong with that any way? It's what I plan on doing, safe in the knowledge that I will have more or less what I wanted and something quite different from the 'Mass Market' Game itself.
:D
The important thing to me now is ensuring that the 'retro troops' at least look something like soldiers from c.1962 and not just yet another set of generic WW2 American soldiers.
::)
However the point remains that, if sales of retro soldiers are significant, are Mantic likely to ignore that and not produce additional packs to support retro players? I think it will be the case that if retro is wanted, folk will have to put their money where their mouths are.
;)
Already mentioned looking like a specific time and place. And yes, if people buy retro by the bucketload I'd be surprised if Mantic didn't respond by making more.
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Already mentioned looking like a specific time and place. And yes, if people buy retro by the bucketload I'd be surprised if Mantic didn't respond by making more.
I shall name one of my Mantic Army Men in your honour. ;)
It's the wait which will be hardest... and maybe I should be more optimistic, but I have visions of Mantic offering up their take on what a retro soldier should look like and me going "NOOO!", with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
;)
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I had a long conversation with them yesterday about making sure that the retro guys were a specific time and place with the correct number of buttons on their jackets and so on. They did point out that the guys in the cards aren't anything like that accurate, which is true. However, I don't expect that will cut any ice with you guys ;D
I've not seen any renders yet. I'm sure they'll post 'em up once they're ready.
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Actually the soldiers on the cards were quite accurate... except in a couple of minor details. Admittedly we'd pick up on those though.
lol
For me, I'd be happy with the 'effect' rather than a 100% accurate representation. The primary difference between troops of the era and WW2 is that they wore combat boots rather than 'spats'. Not a big difference you might imagine, but it's the look in every sci-fi film of the time and indeed every war film (they simply borrowed an army or marine unit for filming, who turned up as then currently equipped, weapons and all). That look was so embedded, that even Airfix's US Marines, first produced in 1963, were based on it, rather than the actual WW2 uniform (not that you could tell, they were that ugly).
The cards feature a mix of both 'WW2-armed' and what was then the 'new' equipment, which accurately reflects what the US military of the time was using. Truth told, despite the M14 being introduced in 1958, by 1962 (if you include the National Guard), over 75% of the US Military was still using the same weapons their fathers had carried in WW2 (except some mo' badder bazookas etc).
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-522-N-hs4KE/UkQFmQnrhiI/AAAAAAAAPqo/2dEc-AR-qgI/s1600/Marine+Corps+Ordnance+1960+-+A.jpg)
This is a 1960 publicity photo (for Time Life iirc) of USMC showing off their new rifles and machine guns. The keen-eyed will notice that if this wasn't a 'publicity' photo, then the Marines would have no way of carrying ammo for their rifles, as they have the pouches for Garand clips and not the bigger pouches for M14 magazines. Quite simply they were loaned the weapons for the photo, but at the time they were still issued Garands.
You will actually see this represented on the cards too, all the soldiers look pretty much the same to a point, but their weapons are somewhat random... so the argument that the cards weren't so picky (or indeed the USMC it seems) is valid.
The difference is that nowadays, we are generally far more 'discerning' (yeah, we count buttons) than the cards' 1962 audience and at least physically (if not mentally) somewhat older than the kids they were pitched at.
:)
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I pledged way too much money on the kickstarter so I'm hoping for the best and look forward to seeing the retro troopers. Browsing for some appropriate vehicles I see Tamiya makes these likely kits in 1/48
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/32548cargo_truck/
which would sub in for the oversized civilian trucks
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/26531light_vehicle/index.htm
cause you need Jeeps
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/26528staffcar/index.htm
and this because it's cool
http://www.revell.com/model-kits/snaptite/85-1756.html
for a very cheap Patton tank. Kinda odd they never added any tanks in the kickstarter for the human side...
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They didn't really go for accuracy on the modern, I suspect they won't on the retro as well. They'll be close enough to give the retro feel, but that is it. The moderns are a great example of Mantic just not wanting or caring to do the research required to get it 'right' vice 'give the feel'.
Additionally the 'if the sell well they may make more' won't happen. A limited 10 man squad with no support weapons/vehicles/etc won't generate enough interest for historical gamers to buy shed loads. I suspect they will sell decently to those who want to retrofit their MA game, and maybe some folks who want to do similar with their alien invasion games, but realistically, that is a small subset of wargamers.
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thats what the term 'no worries' means and why it was at the end of that sentence you quoted. in other words no worries means getting the trucks and other junk is not a massive issue. We agree.
A case of us being divided by use of the same language... it was a rhetorical question mark. I meant that it was a 'good thing' to think that way.
:)
I pledged way too much money on the kickstarter so I'm hoping for the best and look forward to seeing the retro troopers. Browsing for some appropriate vehicles I see Tamiya makes these likely kits in 1/48
None of those vehicles were in service at the time but give the 'effect' sure. Pretty much the full 'Vietnam' range of vehicles was in service then and they are around in 28mm, so they aren't a problem. The only vehicle missing is the M38A1 Jeep, which I guess you would have to use the WW2 version as a proxy... no big deal and it looks the part.
Good find on the Patton though!
Additionally the 'if the sell well they may make more' won't happen. A limited 10 man squad with no support weapons/vehicles/etc won't generate enough interest for historical gamers to buy shed loads. I suspect they will sell decently to those who want to retrofit their MA game, and maybe some folks who want to do similar with their alien invasion games, but realistically, that is a small subset of wargamers.
I think this will be a problem... unless they do support weapons (and a command group) in addition to the 'squad'... their use in wargames is very limited, hence the split I suggested on the Mantic thread. Even that is not an ideal solution as a single five figure fire team doesn't offer much variety. It really needs a full squad to 'sell' it to wargamers.
To be fair to Mantic, historicals aren't what they do, so we should cut them some slack and be supportive. :)
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Considering at the moment no one makes classic B movies soldiers*, any has to be better than nothing :) just hope they turn out well.
So which are the appropriate Vietnam vehicles in 28mm?
*I may of course be wrong
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Considering at the moment no one makes classic B movies soldiers*, any has to be better than nothing :) just hope they turn out well.
I agree, any is better than none. We tell Mantic what we want and they either give us that, or they don't. Not telling them 'exactly' what we want is likely to result in everyone ending up unhappy... they waste time on something nobody wants and we don't get what we wanted (but weren't prepared to say at the time we could have).
So which are the appropriate Vietnam vehicles in 28mm?
M151 MUTT (1959) somewhat limited numbers in comparison to the the M38 Jeep, but still in there.
M35 2.5t Truck
M54 5t Truck
M113 Personnel Carrier (1960)
M48 Patton Tank (1953)
M50 Ontos (1956) - 6x 106mm Recoilless rifles... bring those robots on!
The above are readily available. The following are not currently available, but who knows;
M38A1 Jeep
M37 Weapons Carrier (replaced the WW2 Dodge WC)
M59 Personnel Carrier (you could live without this, as its similar to the M113)
M41 Walker Bulldog Tank (one is being made as we speak)
M47 Patton Tank (out of service in the armoured units in 1962, but still in use by some infantry units and the NG)
M60 Tank (1961) - A master is being produced.
M56 Scorpion SPAT (1956) - 90mm tank gun on a similar chassis to the Ontos.
M42 Duster (1953) - Twin 40mm AA guns on a tank chassis (one of these might actually be out there, I'm not certain tbh).
There's a lot of cool stuff in other words. :)
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Well if Mantic are using the 'on the cards' argument then they should give us both. >:D
I doubt that's going to fly though. My personal preferences aside, the 'new uniform' with the 'old weapons' covers pretty much all the bases as far as almost every sci-fi movie of the era, from War of the Worlds, right through to Mars Attacks.
Vehicles are split, with WW2 types predominating before 1955 and 'Vietnam' types after that. Both are catered for, albeit at a price. The figures are the missing piece of the puzzle...
Oh gotta have a flamethrower guy and an officer doing the forward men wave.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/lfrHN1xsgj9YQP6qaVQGUmmz0V6k9pH3KCy4C2K6u1s=w373-h207-p-no)
Yes, the officer pose is the iconic 'Army Man' pose. :D
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I think that getting the uniform and equipment correct costs nothing but a little time and research but does potentially open up a new market for the figures for anyone looking for post-war historical figures. Not a big market but it still seems worth the effort to get them 'right'.
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I think that getting the uniform and equipment correct costs nothing but a little time and research but does potentially open up a new market for the figures for anyone looking for post-war historical figures. Not a big market but it still seems worth the effort to get them 'right'.
They didn't feel it was worth the effort on the modern ones for a variety of reasons.
To be fair to Mantic, historicals aren't what they do, so we should cut them some slack and be supportive. :)
I think my Deadzone pledge, my Dreadball pledge, and my Mars Attack pledge will show I am supportive. I think the fact they do not do historical minis is actually a reason they don't get too picky. The reality is the troops, modern and retro, are not meant to represent their historical counterparts but instead represent a fictional/Hollywood/Comic Book version, and the moderns do that well. I'll assume the retro ones will too. And the target audience is the folks who like pitting their fictional/Hollywood/Comic Book troopers against the Invading Martians. I get that and don;t have too much of a problem with it.
But as pointed out, a bit of research could have gotten them a lot closer to 'real' on the moderns and still may on the retro troops. I offered to help with the moderns but completely understand their stance.
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Considering at the moment no one makes classic B movies soldiers*, any has to be better than nothing :) just hope they turn out well.
So which are the appropriate Vietnam vehicles in 28mm?
*I may of course be wrong
Brigade Miniatures have a set which they did for Atomic Café 1957
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Getting the feel of the retro guys different from the modern ones is an interesting challenge. In many ways they haven't really changed much. The Martians still disintegrate them with merry abandon :)
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Getting the feel of the retro guys different from the modern ones is an interesting challenge. In many ways they haven't really changed much. The Martians still disintegrate them with merry abandon :)
lol
Do they have to be different? Tactics and weapon use haven't changed overly over 50 years or so. In terms of fire-fights 'old weapons' were overpowered in their day for the typical 300 metre engagement range... although that might indeed be useful against armoured Martians and their machinery of death.
While I would like the MA rules to give a good fun game, if I wanted a 'Modern Warfare' simulation, I'd go for a historical set that does that. Don't forget in the movies a .22 pistol is as deadly as any other gun when the plot requires it to be. Sure, make 'fire and movement' a worthwhile tactic, but I don't see the need for micro-managing weapon stats to the Nth degree.
:)
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Certainly there is a gulf between 'comic book war' and reality. The officer figure in my other post exemplifies that... He's all "Follow me men!", while in reality it would be "You two are on point, move out".
Scurv's spot on for my money here (guess it had to happen one day. :D), the army's role was pretty much 'Operation Cannon Fodder', or 'Operation Human Shield'... only in Them! (iirc) did they actually save the day and do the bulk of the saving of humanity bit, but even then 'Science' identified the threat.
As an aside, here is the 'future soldier' as seen from 1959:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zVa-KT_avEs/UoSLRDRPbuI/AAAAAAAAP_M/w77kBMaT3ss/w353-h545-no/the-us-army-s-soldier-of-the-future-in-1959.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tlqVkS0jJAc/UoSLaUEdafI/AAAAAAAAP_Q/y0L4xD03PZE/w855-h545-no/giofthefuture1959c.jpg)
The jump belt was to assist the soldier to cross trenches and streams... mighty useful when your 'armoured underwear' alone weighs 9 lbs. Nevertheless, besides that he has no LBE and therefore no additional ammo (maybe survivability meant he'd only have time to get off 20 rounds?), the guy is all set for the 'Atomic Battlefield'.
:)
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Which reminds me... Must include something about big piles of sugar as bait for the bugs.
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They are going to need a scientist to think of something like that.
There's always the Proffesor Beattie from Hasslefree:
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=prof.-beattie~hfn007&category=miniatures~modern-non%252dcoms-%2F-civilians (http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=prof.-beattie~hfn007&category=miniatures~modern-non%252dcoms-%2F-civilians)
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Brigade Miniatures have a set which they did for Atomic Café 1957
There's always the Proffesor Beattie from Hasslefree:
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=prof.-beattie~hfn007&category=miniatures~modern-non%252dcoms-%2F-civilians (http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=prof.-beattie~hfn007&category=miniatures~modern-non%252dcoms-%2F-civilians)
While in both cases, these figures are both well done and ideal for the era... I suspect they will look somewhat diminutive when compared to the Mantic figures, which I imagine will be somewhat more 'Heroic' in stature.
:(
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I put some pictures up of some of the 3D printed versions I had, compared to other makes. The Mantic models, especially the MA ones, are a lot less "heroic" than some. Obviously the retro ones aren't done yet and this is a modern trooper and Martian. I'd expect the retro troops would be of similar proportions.
See: http://quirkworthy.com/2013/10/17/how-large-is-your-martian/
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While in both cases, these figures are both well done and ideal for the era... I suspect they will look somewhat diminutive when compared to the Mantic figures, which I imagine will be somewhat more 'Heroic' in stature.
:(
As quirkworthy has said, the rest of the Mantic range isn't as tall as you'd think. I've got some of the corporation minis and they blend well with Hasslefree and the old Moonfleet scientists.
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I've just checked - the retro ones will be made by the same sculptor so they should match in perfectly with the scale of the ones I pictured.
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As for retro troopers they could of been retro from the get go and no one would of cared except for the people who wanted them and the exec at topps who made the dumb call.
That would be me. Don't regret that call one bit. There is so much more you can do creatively with a modern setting. There are far more stories and possibilities to explore in the present than if we'd pidgeon-holed ourselves into the 1960s.
Yes, Mars Attacks definitely has retro appeal. For that reason, we have many stories to tell in that time frame-- it's just not the primary story. If you look at our new cards, for example, there is an entire subset of story cards that take place between 1935-1970. The first issue of the comic book is set in 1962, and one prequel story we have planned takes place in the mid-60s. I'm also talking with Mantic here about the retro figures fitting into a 60s-set story campaign for the game.
To me, though, Mars Attacks is not about the era in which it's set. It's about the outrageous over-the-top violence and the quirky black humor.
Maybe you are right and there was a quick cash-grab to be made by appealing to old school gamers and card collectors by setting it again in 1962 and filling it with retro troops and 60s dames, or even by doing a straight sequel to the original cards. First and foremost though I really want a good story, one that if it catches with fans we can continue.
A modern setting gives us the best chance to do that.
Hope you guys enjoy Mantic's game, it will do a lot for expanding this new story. It looks awesome and i'm psyched to get all those cool figures in my grubby little hands!
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I put some pictures up of some of the 3D printed versions I had, compared to other makes. The Mantic models, especially the MA ones, are a lot less "heroic" than some. Obviously the retro ones aren't done yet and this is a modern trooper and Martian. I'd expect the retro troops would be of similar proportions.
See: http://quirkworthy.com/2013/10/17/how-large-is-your-martian/
As quirkworthy has said, the rest of the Mantic range isn't as tall as you'd think. I've got some of the corporation minis and they blend well with Hasslefree and the old Moonfleet scientists.
Gentlemen, I stand corrected then and indeed am somewhat quite pleased about this... :D
That would be me. Don't regret that call one bit. There is so much more you can do creatively with a modern setting. There are far more stories and possibilities to explore in the present than if we'd pidgeon-holed ourselves into the 1960s.
*snip*
Welcome aboard 'Alvin' :D
I'm inclined to agree that the bulk of people that backed MA will 'relate' to the modern setting far more than they would a retro one, simply because the modern world is the one where they know how everything works... it's that simple.
Nevertheless the 60's are my bag baby, to paraphrase Austin Powers, so I'm stoked by the retro theme not just being confined to a squad of soldiers and that an in-game campaign is at least being talked about. Hopefully interest in that and the figures, will prove (or indeed disprove) the level of interest in the retro aspects of MA.
I just hope that with myself and others repeatedly pushing for things like that, that it translates into 'gamer interest' and not in me researching recipes for cooking crow.
;)
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Actually its the other way around in this case. See the problem is the martians are still 50's comic book sci fi. Thus by separating the martians from their 50's tech opponents you create suspension of belief issues.
I disagree.
Can the human troops launch drones the size of a cigarette packet? Guys in afghanistan do it every day. Sat intell? drones? hellfires? The answer is no they cant in the rules. They are fighting the comic book alien invasion of the 50's with a different costume on.
The inherent problem in your argument is that you're boiling MA down to military vs martians, which is it not. The military plays an important even VITAL role, but it is not the crux of the story. Plus-- though we are not setting out to tell a 100% accurate story, we have crafted a well thought-out narrative that illustrates why even with advanced weapons we are no match for the Martians.
Beceause at the end of the day this story is about humanities inherent ability-- our unique ability-- to overcome impossible odds. We've put a lot more thought into this than just "army vs. aliens."
]This is not gritty sci fi this is a fun game of death rays and saucer men.
I never said it wasn't! But retro 60's troops don't equal fun and modern troops don't equal gritty.
They were sent in the late 50's-early 60's of the world of the future.
Not according to their creator.
The other thing is modern warfare is murky stuff with no clear good guys half the time. Looks at most of the ultra modern FPS on the games market. Its all black ops and that sort of thing. That 50's comic book dynamic of black and white good and bad works better in this setting.
Different, not better. For starters, adding some shades of grey adds depth to a pretty paper thin story. Hence my assertion that setting it in the modern era opens up worlds of possibilities you wouldn't get setting it in the 50s/60s.
The martians are badder n bad, comic book bad. They need to be going up against square jawed heros who love moms apple pie and dont even question the morality of committing genocide on the martian civilization with atomic weapons cus shucks darn its just the right thing to do to dirty sneak attackin varmits from mars.
You've essentially just described both our series bible and the new card set-- except for that last line. I would never ever ever want that in our new story. The whole point of the new story is that we as humans are BETTER than that.
We both know that is not what anyone would call a cynical cash grab.
Well I never said cynical. But we toyed with the idea of doing a sequel, knowing older fans -- fans of the original-- would flock to it. But we also knew there would be a finite life to a universe like that.
Firstly you job is to make cash so making more cash is a great thing as long as the market share and reputation of topps and mantic is not damaged by doing so.
MY job is actually licensing.
Secondly I think I have shown already why its more viable in every extent not just commercially to have it set in retro world AND you will tell a better story and develop your own very identifiable franchise to boot.
You've made valid points, but nothing I was not already aware of. We simply chose to go in a different direction because the 60's approach did not work with our goals.
No it WAS about that in the 60's when those were the most gory things most 8 year old boys had ever seen. They get more gore than all the cards put together these days with 3 minutes of left 4 dead on the console. Its just a few of the tropes that make this sort of thing popular. I think the fact you have added so much retro stuff to the cards comics and games shows I do have a very valid point though re era in which it is set.
I never said it was about violence-- it's about the type of quirky violence MA does best. It's unique and it's different. The style and visual can still be retro without being set in the past; flipping it around, just being set in the past doesn't make it retro. See our new cards for a good example of what i'm talking about. They're all 90% present day, but all have a retro feel.
So... I not only stand by the decision to set this in the present, I would do it over and over again. Not saying the alternative doesn't have merit (it does) but would have been far more difficult to achieve our aims if we had. Not unachievable, but much more challenging. It also helps set us apart from the original, thus helping to keep the old set all its own.
Again, I hear where you're coming from and appreciate your point of view. I hope you understand mine, though. Let me say we didn't make this decision without a lot of thought and discussion: we weighed the pro's and the cons not just for how it would affect a new card set or board game but how it would affect a whole universe of new products and stories in the future.
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I personally prefer the idea of martians attacking a current day world than retreading the 60's stuff that has been done before, now that may be because most of my experience with Mars attacks is from the film so I don't really have any nostalgia for the 1960's style setting. I think Alvin makes a good case for why they choose to set it in the modern day. I also don't see how setting it in the current day requires the use of all modern day technology such as drones or UAV's, I also don't see how it in anyway prevents the addition of some wacky crazy weapons. Set in the 60's or modern day its still Sci Fi. Setting Sci Fi in the past doesn't stop it being Sci Fi.
Something modern day doesn't have to be gritty just because most games and films set in the modern day are gritty. Mars Attacks is never going to try to be gritty and real its going to be campy over the top nonsense through and through despite the time frame, as it should be.
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Now that may be because most of my experience with Mars attacks is from the film so I don't really have any nostalgia for the 1960's style setting.
The troops/weapons/tanks/jeeps were 60's style in the film, unless you saw a different film than I did.
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Regardless of whether you like the choice of setting, one thing we are dead set on doing in all projects is to make them FUN.
You should be able to enjoy the new cards, comics and Mantic's new game whether you prefer 60's soldiers or modern soldiers. Because Mars Attacks is fun.
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You should be able to enjoy the new cards, comics and Mantic's new game whether you prefer 60's soldiers or modern soldiers. Because Mars Attacks is fun.
I'm literally betting on that. I got a significant, for me anyway, pledge for the game riding on it being fun.
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The troops/weapons/tanks/jeeps were 60's style in the film, unless you saw a different film than I did.
I wasn't saying the film wasn't 60s style. Just that I have minimum exposure to Mars Attacks so dont have a strong attachment to the franchise.
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You should be able to enjoy the new cards, comics and Mantic's new game whether you prefer 60's soldiers or modern soldiers. Because Mars Attacks is fun.
I'm literally betting on that. I got a significant, for me anyway, pledge for the game riding on it being fun.
Ditto...
Just that I have minimum exposure to Mars Attacks so dont have a strong attachment to the franchise.
Purely for the sake of argument then; if the game had been just presented as being based on the original cards, would you have still backed the KS?
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I didn't back the kickstarter. I do not have the funds to be able to do so at the moment if I had the funds I would have done so. If you mean would I have been as likely to back it (funds willing) if it was set in the 60's then yes I would have.
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Alvin, As for stating its not set in the 50/60's of the future but set in the 50's and 60's of our present day sort of whitewashes over the fact there is a human rocket borne interstellar invasion force in the cards. Get the creator to explain that one.
He told me that it was a combination of advanced technology they assumed the government had (rockets, space suits, etc) combined with commandeered Martian stuff. To be honest, there wasn't nearly as much thought put into that set. What he explained (and it makes perfect sense) is that it was a card set designed for 10 year olds, so their only thought was to make a cool story with awesome pictures and some fun stories on the back.
Thats an interesting thing to say on so many levels. Most of it being the philosophy behind such a statement which unfortunately falls beyond the scope and rules of this forum. Interesting topic for after work drinks on a friday though.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you intrigued by this? Offended? Sorry, just not sure what you mean by that. Can you expound a tad?
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The truth is out there . . .
Mantic did a modern take on the franchise and ran a very successful kickstarter.
I couldn't afford to go in as my commitment money wise is getting my salute table done. But my main interest was in the martians that I could use in my own setting but with their character etc.
Why is it such an issue that this franchise along with the likes of Captain America etc wanted to bring it more up to date to appeal to a modern audience?
When did the original cards come out? 1960's/70's? I was born in the '80's and have zero interest in '60's us troopers.
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37!?! I'M 38!!!??
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Not offended in the slightest. Its just weather you think humans would rise above or not is stepping into the realm of religion and politics and basic core beliefs. Due to the fact the internet is a craptacular method of communication because of the lack of body language its too easy for those things to spiral into a stupid argument and then the topic gets locked.
It's not about religion or politics it's about what makes us human, and different than the Martians. It's our inner strength, our resolve, our willingness to fight for what we believe is right. It's about fighting to overcome impossible odds; self-sacrifice, altruism, all those sorts of things.
The idea though, and back to your point, is that humans have these qualities that Martians don't, and, in the course of the invasion, will rise above that sort of thing.
Certainly don't want to be supporting genocide either ;)
More broadly, what this illustrates is that the central themes of the story do not necessitate a specific era. They are timeless.
Mantic's game and it's story are equally timeless: the tale of a small town invaded by outsiders, and the everyday people who come together to defend it! THAT'S what I believe Mars Attacks is all about!
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I'm in for the BotB level. I am very happy that the retro troops are in (I just wish that I could sub them for all the modern troops in the set. I loved the cards when I was younger. I would expund on my position but Scurv is doing a fine job channeling my id.
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I do have to agree entirely that the 'Modern' theme does look entirely cosmetic... i.e. it's just the figures that make it so. Otherwise it does seem to reflect the values and tropes of 1960's media representations, rather than those of the present.
The ideas of 'united purpose' in the face of an external threat to freedom and liberty you could lift straight from one of Kennedy's speeches. Morality is black and white and there is no inter-human conflict, no human collaboration with the enemy, or any of the other elements we would expect to see represented in a modern storyline.
The only common thread between the two is the concept of there being a technology gap between 'us' and 'them', which is a constant theme throughout sci-fi, on the basis that 'they' can travel from one planet to another, while 'we' can't.
Like Scurv, I wouldn't want to see any of these modern elements introduced, I quite like the old timee aspects for MA (to me it is what makes MA what it is), as they were the ones I saw depicted on TV and film back in the day. Gritty realism and 'modern' concerns I can get from something else.
Pretty much right through the KS, my intention was to swap out the modern elements for 'the originals', from what I saw of the rules, this was (and is) apparently an easy fix... short of actually finding the figures. Okay one or two of the character figures are no-go's, but they can be replaced... again it's a cosmetic change, which will apparently require no rule or scenario changes.
Seriously... what aspects of the game make it 'Modern', other than the figures that will be supplied with it?
I didn't back the kickstarter. I do not have the funds to be able to do so at the moment if I had the funds I would have done so. If you mean would I have been as likely to back it (funds willing) if it was set in the 60's then yes I would have.
That's fine, I just wanted to see if the 'setting' made a difference. :)
When did the original cards come out? 1960's/70's? I was born in the '80's and have zero interest in '60's us troopers.
I think this was the case with a lot of people backing the project and something those of us beating the retro drum should be appreciating. I sincerely doubt the KS would have been as successful if it had been based on the original cards.
Just because I would like retro, doesn't mean everyone would, or indeed that I am a vocal part of some silent majority that demands retro. Had the 'franchise' been as well known globally as 'War of the Worlds' for example, then perhaps things probably would have been different (at least judging by the KS based on that). As it is, outside of the US (and indeed, somewhat within it too) most people's experience of MA is through the movie. I lost count of the times I saw Alvin and others post "It's not based on the movie".
I wasn't aware of the cards myself until I came across them while researching 50's sci-fi, despite being an avid fan of the movie. I had previously thought the retro-styling of that was an homage to War of the Worlds and the other 50's classics.
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Just how specifically is this modern version a different game to one with the exact same components except ALL the human stuff had a retro look.
In other words if I set up the game with 50's figs for all the human stuff would it feel right or are there things in there that would make me think no these figs just dont fit the feel of the rules?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking me, but i'm not a gamer myself. What we are going for, however, is a timeless style, with a concerted effort to achieve a pulpy, retro feel, even if the setting is the modern day. I do understand the appeal of MA lies in the pulp, the classic sci-fi ideals, and that's what we're aiming to recapture-- just set in the present. Perhaps that makes it even more unique.
Whatever the case, I implore you to check out our new card set (even if just online) and you'll see for yourself.
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I'm just gobsmacked at all of the thought and effort that all of you guys on this thread have for this project! I think for more good than ill, there is a LOT of buzz!
It's still a 'bridge too far' project for me, as i have just way too many to juggle, but I wish you all good luck and happy gaming!
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You do mad max minis?
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lol no they are loosely based upon salute of the jugger. 28mm PA guys and gals with no weapons. Designed as future sports players. (see what I mean Alvin!)
And they look great painted by a 10 year old girl:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/CptJake_Minis/SkullBrawlTeams/P4130001_zpsf6cfa438.jpg)
And her old and half retarded (according to her) father:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/CptJake_Minis/SkullBrawlTeams/P4120003_zps15b9c7ce.jpg)
;)
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Scurv should really hang out a shingle for Wargamer Therapy/Headshrinking. I believe he just described my neurosis in painful detail.
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what about the agony of what is and is not cannon dave.
Indeed; I thinnk that one is actually in the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual. The rage fueled shouting matches surrounding 40K cannon on Dakka are enough to make one fear for humanity.
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what about the agony of what is and is not cannon dave.
Learning to spell "canon" would be a GREAT start . . . . . ;) lol
a "cannon" is a mounted gun for firing heavy projectiles ;D
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Learning to spell "canon" would be a GREAT start . . . . . ;) lol
a "cannon" is a mounted gun for firing heavy projectiles ;D
The tone of disagreements at times suggests the alternate spelling is accurate.
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The tone of disagreements at times suggests the alternate spelling is accurate.
LoL - Good Point!
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Your abrupt change of tack can only mean that while you were sleeping they put a pod under your bed. :D
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You guys kill me. I write what I thought was one of my better posts and I get nothing but a spelling lesson in return.
Thats because I rarely debate with people I truly disagree with ;)
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Fortunately, the comic compendiums are somewhat more available in the UK, so reading them will be somewhat less problematic for me. You're preaching to the converted though, as it became apparent during the KS that there is a great deal of depth to the modern storyline, that is absent from the original cards. Alvin's boundless enthusiasm for the MA 'new era' is also pretty infectious too!
I will admit that my preference for 'retro' is purely aesthetic; I like the look of it, pure and simple. My plan was to literally just swap out the modern soldiers for more suitable-looking retro ones, I hadn't planned on rule changes, or anything else, as there didn't seem to be any reason or point to that.
I'm pretty convinced that MA will be a cool and fun game as it comes, I'm just pleased that I will get the opportunity with the retro soldiers to bend it towards what I want it to look like. Will I play it in its modern setting? Sure, I have no reason not to, but as a wargaming 'project' I'm stuck back in 1962.
:)
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For the most part the Comics are excellent, and well worth the search - some of the crossovers are "patchy" at best - and purely "gag factor" reads
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While the crossovers are not for me, Martian Dredd does have a devoted fan following within the KS backers and I did chuckle at the Martians in KISS make up.
(http://www.geeksofdoom.com/GoD/img/2013/01/2013-01-05-mars_attacks_kiss-1.jpg)
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The Dredd crossover is pretty good, although I've yet to read issue 4.
As a lifelong Kiss fan - I kinda liked that one.
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LoL - Good Point!
Coincidentally, and off-topic, I just read a WSJ article entitled "Reloading the Canon" about Jane Austen retreads.
On topic: That KISS crossover makes me giddy. KISS army forever.
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Did this kickstarter reach store shelves yet? Missed the kickstarter but hoping to score some martians along the way :)
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Afraid you have a bit of a wait alfrik. The survey was only sent out this week and delivery is slated for August (although I have yet to see a gaming kickstarter meet it's delivery target).
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delivery is slated for August (although I have yet to see a gaming kickstarter meet it's delivery target
Deadzone did . . . . .
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Just took the survey, and it was nice and easy.
Well I say easy, but choosing what to add and what to leave behind was a royal pain in the back-side. Ended up bolting on $50 worth of stuff before the thing was done. I'm never gonna reach the bottom of my plastic mountain now.
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Deadzone did . . . . .
I think Zombicide was early...twice.
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Deadzone did . . . . .
So did Dreadball :) Mantic like to pride themselves on on time KS delivery, so I would be very surprised is Mars Attacks is any different.
Ended up bolting on $50 worth of stuff before the thing was done. I'm never gonna reach the bottom of my plastic mountain now.
I had to be ruthless. I accumulate way faster than I process and Kickstarters, although good value in terms of $$$ are terrible value if I never use the stuff.
Well, maybe not ruthless, but I definitely left out a few things that I wanted...
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I think Zombicide was early...twice.
That said, I ordered custom heads of myself from Mimic and they have trotted out the 'excuse factory', the same with Winter War. Not really sure at this point if I will get these items and to be honest, I refuse to spend more money on a KS again (DF not included) without getting these items first. It may seem strange to punish new KS's based upon old ones where the new people prob have no connection, but to my eye, this is a fault of KS. KS get's their money and they really could care less about 'follow through'. Customers are left holding the bag. It's part of the reason I gave the Road/Kill guy a hard time in his offer, he had a half baked idea what he wanted big bucks for....and it just seemed more scam than sale.
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Deadzone did . . . . .
Sort of. They had a lot of mis-packed boxes and the QC on what was delivered was atrocious. So, yes, they did deliver a package to most people on time, but if you wanted what was supposed to have been included to show up, and show up in the quality you were led to believe you would get, you may have been disappointed. Since they will not be looking to correct missing or miscast items anytime soon (they are still working on fixing LOKA, then DreadBall, then will start assessing Dead Zone submissions) I submit that 'on time' is relative. I, and many others, have not gotten everything we were supposed to for the initial shipment. If we go with the date I receive everything from the first shipment I was supposed to, they will not be close to on time.
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Sort of. They had a lot of mis-packed boxes and the QC on what was delivered was atrocious. So, yes, they did deliver a package to most people on time, but if you wanted what was supposed to have been included to show up, and show up in the quality you were led to believe you would get, you may have been disappointed. Since they will not be looking to correct missing or miscast items anytime soon (they are still working on fixing LOKA, then DreadBall, then will start assessing Dead Zone submissions) I submit that 'on time' is relative. I, and many others, have not gotten everything we were supposed to for the initial shipment. If we go with the date I receive everything from the first shipment I was supposed to, they will not be close to on time.
Sorry to hear Jake. It's these types of stories that have caused me to all but abandon KS in the future.
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To be fair, the game does look like it will be a lot of fun. And the price was probably fair for the amount of stuff you get. The terrain mat is spectacular, really fantastic.
But restic mold lines down the middle of a figure's face just suck. Gaps like this one just suck:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3G2_1-D606U/UqDvEEkGE6I/AAAAAAAADZY/fc5szxt33SU/s1600/004.JPG)
Soft detail like on the tracks here:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/CptJake_Minis/Deadzone/photo3_zps11d3d307.jpg)
coupled with the question, what is the support on the mortar supposed to connect to?
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/CptJake_Minis/Deadzone/image1_zpsc43e87ac.jpeg)
Add in the couple bags of missing figures, a few missing bases and terrain sprues (and the dice EVERY backer was missing). Add in the craptastic job of packing that causes rulebooks to arrive with scratched covers.
Just a bit disappointing. It was clearly rushed out to meet timelines.
But yeah, the box showed up on time.
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yeah I was fairly disappointed with the Quality of Deadzones miniatures in regards to mould lines and gaps tbh. Taken all the enthusiasm out of painting them up to play for me. Not to mention their is no instructions or contents list in the box and nothing is labeled so you have to play which bag is which to try to work out if you have anything. Really should take them out of the bags to actually check if everything that is supposed to be in each bag is actually there.
With hindsight I wouldn't have backed Deadzone despite liking the game idea and thinking the rules look great. Probably would have just picked up the rules and a single faction further down the line. Certainly wont be upping my pledge.
The new mars attacks figures are meant to be made out of the same plastic resin as the Gears of War game and to be fair the miniatures in that game look great. So maybe their is hope if Mantic take their time with this one.
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... (although I have yet to see a gaming kickstarter meet it's delivery target).
Oathsworn did... twice. Much smaller KSs though - I can't imagine the nightmare of trying to fulfill one of the really big ones!
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, but Mantic Just blew it for me. I spent $300 to get my stuff. Supposed to be August delivery. Latest update is that I won't get it until November. I could get JUST the basic box if I'm willing to part with an additional $10 to pay for the shipping of separate orders. Turns out I could have walked into a store and gotten the basic box before I will see my reward for pledging. Mantic: "Thanks for being a backer chump".
Sorry for the rant. Any other backers ill over this?
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Actually I'm pretty happy with the turn around on this Kickstarter. After so many late campaigns, one that delivers in the same year is simply amazing to me. I mean, this is nothing compared to Robotech, and then there's Otherworlds. Closing on two years now waiting for that one. I'm surprised when a Kickstarter delivers on time. Just as long as I get my stuff, and it's decent quality I'm happy. (Anyone looking for some Sedition Wars resin?)
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I do see your point. I was under the mistaken assumption that "reward" meant getting something early and/or cheap in comparison to the actual retail release. Being rewarded for fronting capital seems like a good idea. Now I understand that "reward" means "Shut up and give us your money, expect delays, pledge manager errors, and total indifference that a retail cutstomer would not normally deal with".
Side note: It would be nice if KS had a feedback mechanism like ebay. That would highlight project creators who fail to deliver on promises.
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Side note: It would be nice if KS had a feedback mechanism like ebay. That would highlight project creators who fail to deliver on promises.
I hazard to guess that this is not entirely an oversight.... :D
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I hazard to guess that this is not entirely an oversight.... :D
You are probably right. I have backed about 20 projects in the last 3 years. More than half are late. The balance are early or on-time. This one irritates me more than the rest though. Mantic is company with some time and projects under their belt. They are executing on a license from another company. Their poor performance will impact their other products. Their sh!t should be fully together.
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Oathsworn did... twice. Much smaller KSs though - I can't imagine the nightmare of trying to fulfill one of the really big ones!
Ditto for Zombicide, and it all arrived beautifully packed. I've never had a problem with that KS. I think their minis are also the same restic crap, I had a hell of a time using plastic glue trying to glue them to lexan disks.... But the Zombicide minis are quite well done, and aside from the general problem of even small mold lines on this material, they were great fun to paint up. Hope you guys have better experiences in the future, it's awful to hear or experience the 'otherside' of KS.
This, GoW, Sedition Wars, etc are all good examples that even big names and big companies doesnt automatically translate into good product. And if this is true, think how important it is to keep smaller and newer publishers 'honest'. I remember the second failed Road/Kill KS where the creator got outright nasty when people asked direct questions about his project. Also, in some ways, when we pay upfront for the creation of a game, I cant help but feel it gives less incentive to make a better game or components as they already have the money. This may be cynical, but it does creep into the back of my mind sometimes...
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I have backed about 20 projects in the last 3 years. More than half are late. The balance are early or on-time.
I'm sure everyone's KS experience has been different, and I haven't backed quite as many projects as you but I do keep a close eye on things and I would put the "late" label to most projects I've backed:
Zombicide (Phase 1) 1 Month Early
zombicide (Phase 2) 1 Month Late
Sedition Wars (Phase 1) 2 Months Late
Sedition Wars (Phase 2) 6 Months Late
Dreamforge Plastic (Phase 1) 4 Months Late
Dreamforge Plastic (Phase 2) 6 Months Late
Dreamforge Plastic (Phase 3) Still Not Delivered, running 16 months late
Kingdom Death Still Not Delivered, running 10 months late
Bug Hunt Corridord 8 Months Late
Zombicide 2 (Phase 1) On Time
Zombicide 2 (Phase 1.5) Not anticipated but 2 months after phase 1
Zombicide 2 (Phase 1) On Time
Tablescapes Still Not Delivered, running 9 months late
Deadzone (Phase 1) On Time
Deadzone (Phase 2) 3 Months Late
Deadzone (Phase 3) Not anticipated, not delivered, at least 3 months late
Bombshell Special Edition On Time
Dark, Darker, Darkest 1 Month Late
Incursion Still Not Delivered, running 6 months late
Mars Attacks Still Not Delivered, running 1 month late
Shadows of Brimstone Still Not Delivered, running 1 month late
AVP Still Not Delivered, running 4 months late
All my other campaigns are still in their original window so can't say how they'll shape up.
Given the above list, I don't think Mars Attacks one month slip is that big a deal. The big take away I've learned is that CMON and Mantic are "generally" on time but quality is hit and miss. Any campaign that sources miniatures or tooling out of Wargames factory has high quality but MASSIVE delays (Dreamforge, KD & Tablescapes).
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Go take a look at the mess that Iello made with Guardians Chronicles. That thing is a nightmare. I managed to get out of it. It had bait and switch going on with the miniatures, no communications with the backers, super late, etc. I am very happy with Mantic compared to that. At least we are getting everything at one time. Shadows of Brimstone is about to ship the base game and it will be another year before we see the add-ons.
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Guys this is about Mars attacks really not general KS issues :/
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A guy on BGG says the included clear plastic domes for the Martians don;t fit well at all.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243076/first-component-criticism
If that is an issue for you, you may want to verify the report and if true, see how Mantic intends to handle it.
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I got my copy yesterday. I haven't tried the helmets yet (or even taken them out of the packet!)
My initial worry was the paper gaming mat it has some extreme folds in it?
The cards could have been much better quality as well, I was stupidly expecting playing card quality & they are very flimsy card :?
The Terrain pieces are really, really nice & very useful for other projects, I did find it odd though that as its supposed to appeal to board gamers that there is no instruction leaflet for those that have no modelling ability.
Some of the figures have very noticeable mold lines on them.
The rule book is very nice production & full colour throughout, die cut counters are nice & thick.
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For those with models in hand: What is the material like? Are they like Zombiecide? Dreadball? Reaper Bones? I read somewhere they were like the Star Wars/D&D prepaints, but those sort of varied in their quality.
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For those with models in hand: What is the material like? Are they like Zombiecide? Dreadball? Reaper Bones? I read somewhere they were like the Star Wars/D&D prepaints, but those sort of varied in their quality.
My impression was that it was like the D&D/Star Wars stuff. A lof of the bases on my figures were deform (not flat..) and the figures stood leaning forwards or backwards.
A few weapons are notably bent (here especially the General Tor model is annoying). Also the clear helmets provided have a bad fit and slightly wrong form (too wide to the back).
As I'm going to rebase them all anyway it is not a huge issue for me, but I think it goes to show that these are definitely board game gaming pieces and not 'proper' miniatures. So don't expect quality stuff. lol
Considering that I'm a fan of Mars Attacks and am really happy to finally have some toys to play with, I may be too positive in my assessments.
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I just got my copy in the mail today. I don't have time for pictures right now, but I think comparing them to Zombicide is pretty fair. They have about the same level of stiffness and detail. There are some mold lines (some more noticeable than others) and there I've noticed a few figures with some mold slip or offsets. The figures are certainly NOT restic!
Now on to the martian helmets/domes. They are definitely vac-u-formed and have that distinctive bell shaped flare at the bottom where they were cut from the sheet. There is a definite front/back orientation to them. After test fitting some random figures, it looks like all the domes "slope" at the back so that they actually sit on the backpack tanks and not inside the collar. Why they shaped them this way isn't immediately obvious but it does look "wrong" when you look at the dome from the rear quarter view on the figure. Sadly this doesn't look like something you could "fix" with heat shaping or trimming very easily.
There is one upside to the thinner vac-u-formed domes over thicker injection molded ones. I have a number of figures with injection domes (AT-43 Karmans, Flying Frog martians) and with the thicker plastic you get some distortion to the heads inside. With the vac-u-formed domes I don't see any sort of distortion.
This is just a preliminary verdict but I'd say that martian domes aside, the figures are on the high side of "board game" quality but still a bit short of what you might expect for "tabletop quality". As with any subjective analysis, your millage may vary.
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Now, the question is...will someone come out with replacement domes, and would it be worth waiting? I'm not invested in this game (hated the film) but it does suck that they don't fit.
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Now, the question is...will someone come out with replacement domes, and would it be worth waiting? I'm not invested in this game (hated the film) but it does suck that they don't fit.
The Game has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Movie.
It takes its inspiration from the Cards and Comics.
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but it does suck that they don't fit.
OK, I'm not saying they don't fit. They look like they fit as designed by Mantic, but it looks like the design is sub par. I make that distinction because there are some comments on the Kicksterter of people that think the domes they recieved are defective and are agitating for Mantic to send new ones. I'm guessing that any replacements would end up looking just the same unless Mantic does some re-design.
I have some Flying Frog Domes that I haven't gotten around to gluing down yet. If I've got time I'll dig them out and see if they fit the Mantic figures.
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The Game has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Movie.
It takes its inspiration from the Cards and Comics.
Okay, well I dislike the entire IP. Better? lol
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Okay, well I dislike the entire IP. Better? lol
Yes, thankyou - I've been "into" MA since I was a Kid and my Mum bought me some Bubblegum Cards.
The Movie was a HUGE Disappointment to me . . . ..
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OK, so I brought out my macro and did my best to capture the whole martian helmet issue.
First, here is a shot of how they come from Mantic stacked together. You can see the that they do not have a circular cross section.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2128_zps36f62c7d.jpg)
This is about the best shot to demonstrate how the helmet fits on the back by sloping down to the backpack tanks. You can barely see it with the low contrast but the actual back of the collar sits inside the flare of the helmet by about 2mm.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2120_zps924647c8.jpg)
I tried to shift the helmet around in various angles and positions, but this is as good as it got. I also tried out other helmets and other figures and I got this or worse results on each one. I suspect that the flare was put in because the back of the head is pretty bulbous and may have interfered with a straight sided dome.
I'm perplexed as to what Mantic was thinking with this design. It's a bit sad because the rest of the components are a step above their earlier board game components such as Project Pandora and Darf Kings Hold. I have some other pictures from other angles as well.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2127_zps3a8704db.jpg (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2127_zps3a8704db.jpg)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2125_zpsb322ee08.jpg (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2125_zpsb322ee08.jpg)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2123_zps2de26536.jpg (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2123_zps2de26536.jpg)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2116_zps67607b27.jpg (http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb70/rwwingate/IMG_2116_zps67607b27.jpg)
I do have to wonder though if one might be able to track down something more suitable. Maybe an LED cover or some other clear plastic dodad.
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Man, this is just bad design for such a key element of the Martians. What a shame.
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The helmet in that last image is not in the correct position though.
It should go all the way to the front.
But even when you do that it does slope at the back. But not nearly as bad.
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OK - Here's my Review of the Mars Attacks Miniatures Game.
Got Mine yesterday, and here are my initial Thoughts - the Plastic Material - not a fan, it holds the detail 'OK' - but not as good as Restic – I know some people have said its fine or it looks great etc – without being arrogant I have handled hundreds (perhaps thousands) of miniatures over the last four decades, and quality-wise these (though above “average” for the material they are made of) are not the best I’ve seen. Either that or perhaps my own personal standards are a lot higher than other reviewers – or maybe I can “quell” the geek in me long enough to look at things realistically LoL!
Colouring the Plastic the way they have kinda obscures the Detail to the naked eye – especially with the Red Miniatures, I know they are aiming to snag boardgamers as well with the product – but that particular shade of Red does the sculpts no favours at all.
The Martian Soldiers however Look Good in the Green Plastic – the detail is clearly present. But out of all the models, the Human Military look the best in the raw plastic – perhaps because of the beige colour? (Although it would have been hysterically funny for me to see them produced in the same colour plastic as the Green Army Men he, he, he . . . ).
The detail (and the VERY fine Mold Lines LoL) becomes clear when the models are Undercoated – but because the detail is very fine/shallow (especially on the Hero miniatures) I recommend a good quality Undercoat, and several fine coats when spraying.
The Helmets themselves are fine - not exactly what I was expecting - but they work.
The Card Components are nice, and I got the clear plastic stands with my set – other reviewers observations about the card standees not working with the card inserts (the bit you use to make them stand up) is correct, the die cutting of the components left the slots way too wide. The Tokens are nice and sturdy and should stand up to a good deal of use. The Card “Trackers” are clear and bright, and again quite sturdy. People have complained the Cards themselves are thinner than Deadzone – I found them to be roughly the same thickness - plus the quality of Card used, and the quality of the printing itself is towards the high end of the Market – any concerns about wear through use are easily avoided by the use of Card Sleeves.
The play mats situation is a little “odd” – several reviewers have complained the Paper used on the play mat is flimsy – and I would agree about the one that came in the Box. The extra Loose Ones I got were much better quality, thicker paper – but (as is usual with these things) the folds are so precise and strong – even the thicker play mats are going to break apart with continued use. If I were a customer purchasing this game in a store – I would (personally) prefer to spend a little more for Card Sections that I could use for longer.
The Rulebooks are sumptuous, like reading a graphic novel – really REALLY high quality. But over three books for the Core Game and Two Expansions – not indication of Points Costs – are we going to get them at some point? If we don’t they are severely limiting the long term play life of the game – I know I get bored of playing set scenarios with set models quite quickly, as I generally write my own Campaigns etc – and I am sure I am not alone in that way of thinking.
Lastly, the Terrain – what more can I say than WOW – awesome, builds like a dream etc, etc – only ONE Criticism (and it was the same with DeadZone) not enough Connectors LoL! You need way more corner connectors than they provide LoL (thankfully, I had plenty spare).
Final Thoughts – a Good Solid Set of Rules, Usable Components – what I would like to see in the future are “deluxe” versions of the Plastic Miniatures (like they did for Dungeon Saga – with the Resin editions of the Miniatures) for OCD Collectors and Hobbyists like me.
Game Play – 9/10 (No Points System in Place as of Yet)
Product Quality – 8/10 (The Material used on the Miniatures and the Paper Play Mat factored here)
Product Life – 7/10 (I can’t see casual players taking to this in a big way, future products might change this though)
Overall – 8/10
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The helmet in that last image is not in the correct position though.
It should go all the way to the front.
But even when you do that it does slope at the back. But not nearly as bad.
You can't see from that angle but the bottom has a slight bell shape all the way around and you can't slide it any farther forward without it starting to ride up on the sides. So sliding it forward made it look slightly better in the back but worse on the sides/front.
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You can't see from that angle but the bottom has a slight bell shape all the way around and you can't slide it any farther forward without it starting to ride up on the sides. So sliding it forward made it look slightly better in the back but worse on the sides/front.
Strange. Mine don't seem to have that problem.
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Strange. Mine don't seem to have that problem.
Pics?
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Pics?
Certainly. I will put up a thread when I start painting. lol
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Certainly. I will put up a thread when I start painting. lol
Ha, I can sympathize there. My MA figs are behind a bunch of new Malifaux plastic, then the my remaining seven zombicide heroes. Of course I'm also keeping a window open for shadows of brimstone if it ever shows up, so my martians are realistically into the winter before they see any paint. The humans have some cross over potential for zombie games so they might end up higher on the schedule.
There's always the possibility that if I wait long enough some enterprising soul will figure out a good fix for the helmets before I get around to mine. As far as I can see with my copy the helmets are about the only complaint I have.
Part of me wishes I could just leave well enough alone with board game figures and focus on tabletop minis, but for some reason I just can't stop myself and end up taking a game out of the rotation for months because I've got half the figures painted and can't get around to getting the rest finished.
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If the helmets are mis-vac'd then contact Sarah at mantic's customer services and she'll sort I'm sure.
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If the helmets are mis-vac'd then contact Sarah at mantic's customer services and she'll sort I'm sure.
I would if I thought they were malformed. All of mine look the same and seem to match (generally) the pics I've seen of other peoples helmets. I was waiting to see if anyone is reporting that they've got a set that actually fits in the collar before contacting Mantic for replacements.
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I would if I thought they were malformed. All of mine look the same and seem to match (generally) the pics I've seen of other peoples helmets. I was waiting to see if anyone is reporting that they've got a set that actually fits in the collar before contacting Mantic for replacements.
I thought that's what Dr Viking said? Well i can ask on the Kickstarter comments log see what others say?
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Ha, I can sympathize there. My MA figs are behind a bunch of new Malifaux plastic, then the my remaining seven zombicide heroes. Of course I'm also keeping a window open for shadows of brimstone if it ever shows up, so my martians are realistically into the winter before they see any paint. The humans have some cross over potential for zombie games so they might end up higher on the schedule.
There's always the possibility that if I wait long enough some enterprising soul will figure out a good fix for the helmets before I get around to mine. As far as I can see with my copy the helmets are about the only complaint I have.
Part of me wishes I could just leave well enough alone with board game figures and focus on tabletop minis, but for some reason I just can't stop myself and end up taking a game out of the rotation for months because I've got half the figures painted and can't get around to getting the rest finished.
It seems that I was wrong and will have to retract my statement... I simply tried the helmet on one pose and it fit - not greatly but OK. After a bit of fiddling around it seems though that there is in fact only ONE pose on which the helmets fit. All the others leave a gaping hole to the back if you fit them to the front.
Having cleaned, prepped and painted a bit now I know exactly what I think these figures feel like; They are 1:72 Italeri plastics with a 28 mm price tag. ;) :?
It'll be another round of turd polishing. Such a shame.
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I pulled my very large pledge at the last minute, so glad I did now.
I still plan to buy some saucers though.
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Yeah, I had Mantic refund me for my Mars Attacks and DreadBall Extreme pledges, and am pretty happy I did so. May pick up bits and pieces at some point. Or I may not. We'll see.
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I've seen some very nicely painted samples, but have never worked with the material. However, since I've used everything from Tamiya 1:48 scale figures through to Reaper Bones as figures in my gaming I really don't care about what they're made of, so long as I can get a decent looking result on my table after it's painted.
I missed the KS for Mars Attacks, but I'm actually looking forward to my pre-order when it arrives.
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Having cleaned, prepped and painted a bit now I know exactly what I think these figures feel like; They are 1:72 Italeri plastics with a 28 mm price tag. ;) :?
It'll be another round of turd polishing. Such a shame.
I definitely wouldn't go that far. Mantic billed the figures as board game quality and they (in my opinion), are certainly solidly in that category. They'll never stand up to anything to come out of GW, Warlord or WGF in the last few years, but they aren't that bad. From a sculpting/casting perspective if you keep your expectations low, they should be ok.
Back to the helmets for a minute, I did a keyword search of the KS comments for the last two weeks and they seem split three ways: Those that think the helmets fit fine, those that think they fit terrible and those that didn't receive any helmets in the box at all. Looks like enough churn and agitation that I'll just stay out of it for a while and see if anything official shakes out.
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Wow. Thanks guys for the reviews. I haven't gotten mine yet, but it sounds like I'm going to be disappointed. I was concerned that these figs would be bendy and it looks like that fear was well-founded. I don;t think I'm going to waste time trying to paint these. I loved Mars Attack since childhood, but I will probably sell these on ebay. Such a shame, Mantic will never get any more money from me.
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I just received my lot - I only signed up to buy specific models:
one walker, which I haven't examined yet, but it IS big
3 Martian ants - very nice and useful giant insects, not too large to use, but suitably impressive next to 28mm humans. These came with one Martian each, so I unexpectedly ended up facing the transparent helmet issue (yes, there's a big one for the walker, but haven't gotten there yet) - and surprise, the one I opened to check out fit the Martian perfectly! It does have the kink in the helmet, but it seems intentional, and at least on this model goes to the front.
Sidney Rose and Henry the giant flea - bought this for the fun factor - any background on them? The soft packet I got ended up with poor Henry a bit bent, but nothing irreparable. VERY soft plastic, but should paint up well.
Craig and Tunga - a hero and an ape! Ok, still have to take a close look at these.
Scenery set - looks like being VERY useful, and with more bits than I expected. AND those blasted connectors from Deadzone.... but to be fair I haven't tried the fit for this lot yet.
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Anyone in Australia got their bundle from the kickstarter yet? Nearly four moths overdue now, I think...
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Lawful Evil, I got mine early last week, Sydney NSW.
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Thanks, MM, looks like I can expect them this week or next week.
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Or not. I've contacted Mantic a few times through the Kickstarter message system, to no avail. I understand things get overlooked and it might still be holidays for some people, but I'm at a bit of a loss until they get back to me.
At this point I'd just about rather the money back :-I