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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: FramFramson on October 24, 2013, 03:31:44 AM
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Frustrations of scale drive me bananas. It's tough enough for me to find figures for my projects and the times when I've seen an absolutely perfect figure only for it to look like a damned midget compared to everything else I've got have come close to driving me batty. I mean, for a 1mm difference I'm not going to bother, but when a supposedly "tall" character winds up being a full head shorter (and much skinnier) than the other figures I've got, well that's right out. Or those wonderful cases when a figure maker decides they want to do things in 40+mm scale because they hate money or something.
This had me thinking. Does anyone think we'll ever see not just 3D printing, but scanning as well? Send in a figure, get it scaled correctly, and have a printout sent back?
I'm sure there are many other applications that we can all think of there too. Some less honest than others. I'm honestly curious if anyone thinks it's something we'll see, or if the technology for that is workable at all.
Alternatively, is there anyone who knows how to and/or does re-cast figures slightly larger? ;)
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3D scanning is happenning right now. Check this out:
http://www.creaform3d.com/en/metrology-solutions/portable-3d-scanner-handyscan-3d (http://www.creaform3d.com/en/metrology-solutions/portable-3d-scanner-handyscan-3d)
I saw it in action, pretty impressive. I think the "resolution" of the scan isn't yet capable of scanning minis, but it shouldn't be too far away. Now, there's the whole question of IP...
Sir Dryden
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I have an app on my iPad that is basically a 3d scanner. Not for printing but you can get a 3d representation. I caught my daughter sleeping and could then see her in 3d, of course I could just look at her anyway but you get the idea. I just had to take a series of photos.
Also a course I went to (I'm a teacher and I teach in a BYOD classroom) they had a salesman selling 3d printers for schools and he demonstrated with an xbox kinect device (the one where you just wave your arms about and you control the game). He used it to scan a person into the computer and then printed her off. Pretty cool.
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you can build a rudimentary 3d scanner with an xbox kinnect device.
There is (was) an indegogo campaign for an all in 1 3d scanner/printer/lathe/rapid prototyping machine .
If i can find the link i'll post it for you.
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Frustrations of scale drive me bananas. It's tough enough for me to find figures for my projects and the times when I've seen an absolutely perfect figure only for it to look like a damned midget compared to everything else I've got have come close to driving me batty. I mean, for a 1mm difference I'm not going to bother, but when a supposedly "tall" character winds up being a full head shorter (and much skinnier) than the other figures I've got, well that's right out. Or those wonderful cases when a figure maker decides they want to do things in 40+mm scale because they hate money or something.
This had me thinking. Does anyone think we'll ever see not just 3D printing, but scanning as well? Send in a figure, get it scaled correctly, and have a printout sent back?
I'm sure there are many other applications that we can all think of there too. Some less honest than others. I'm honestly curious if anyone thinks it's something we'll see, or if the technology for that is workable at all.
Alternatively, is there anyone who knows how to and/or does re-cast figures slightly larger? ;)
To answer your last question first, yes there are several that have clearly done recasts (IMO) or taken two figures (Alpini and skater to make VSF Alpini) and I have spoken to one of the latter victims of stolen IP and have the remaining duplicate figures sitting on a shelf - won't paint them, won't sell, won't use them, have no means to melt them. Will I tell you who they are? No.
I have several armies that are made up of recasts before identified them by comparison to known originals and finding the original sculptors/sellers to confirm they clearly were not the ones they sold. Those armies remain "frozen in time" and while I don't destroy the recasts (see above) I avoid the known sources and pay more (in some cases waaaay more) for figures I can see are not clearly recasts. Not angelic by any means but I do have an ethical standard higher than some of my co-workers in my business - which probably isn't saying much.
I think we will eventually see 3D scanning but they will include more protections in the process/software and will initially drive up the unit price IMO.
Gracias,
Glenn
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To be straight - I don't mean to steal someone's livelihood. I have already purchased the various figures in question but I cannot use them due to severe scale issues. If I got someone to recast one such figure in a larger size (I mean, is that even possible? How does that work exactly? I've never even heard of it being done.), receiving a single copy of the larger figure back, how does that constitute harm? To me that is like buying a DVD legitimately and then copying it to another format so I can watch it on say, my computer.
NOW, if that person then uses the molds to produce extra figures and sells them as straight recasts, then I would agree that is clear profiteering/piracy/whatever you want to call it. But people like that don't me to send them a figure - they'll do that on their own, with the most valuable figures they can get their hands on.
More importantly, that is not what I want and not what I would ask anyone to do.
EDIT: I don't mean to start a piracy argument, though this does touch on that subject. I'm mainly interested in the technical possibilities. What will be possible in the future. Is it possible now? I mean, Are we able to re-scale items using our current "analog" technology (i.e. recasts)? To what quality? If so, how might scanning compare in the future to what exists now? Could this solve problems people have with different scales of minis?
This is also a separate issue from people who make digital masters and who can re-scale those on the computer, printing different size masters from the same master file.
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you can build a rudimentary 3d scanner with an xbox kinnect device.
Nice to see you read my post ;)
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Nice to see you read my post ;)
Sorry about that ,i must have missed it. :)
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:D sorry couldn't resist, were all guilty of that on here though. lol
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FramFramson,
Okay, now I understand where you are going...
Gracias,
Glenn
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Frustrations of scale drive me bananas.
...character winds up being...
...a full head shorter...
(http://api.ning.com/files/gkB0q9PO6*YKwPmgbhZIXnGRFsA3VU2yDY4F6FVLVJo2jSNajUTDutjijnh2xXa0*FokXK7-Xex69eRlWD8986qha-j2VUUO/group9.jpg)
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Especially if the character in question is supposed to be bigger than similar ones, yes.
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recast [a] figure in a larger size (I mean, is that even possible? How does that work exactly? I've never even heard of it being done.)
It is possible. Aerospace engineers have been scaling parts up or down in 3D CAD for decades.
Reaper minis did exactly this with Kaladrax the undead dragon when they had him re-created in their new plastic material.
The original metal design was scanned; the digital master was scaled up; the resulting new Kaladrax may no longer qualify as a mini...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img407/5279/p200dpi259.jpg)
Kaladrax the Dragon, cast in Bones-ium, at Reaper Con 2013.
If I got someone to recast one such figure, receiving a single copy of the larger figure back, how does that constitute harm?
You have a Foundry figure. You want a bigger version. The someone you paid to cast it larger receives money for doing so; Foundry does not. Thus Foundry is harmed.
To me that is like buying a DVD legitimately and then copying it to another format so I can watch it on say, my computer.
If you need another copy in a different format of a DVD owned by Sony Entertainment the legit way to get that is request one in the alternate format from Sony. Anything else is not legit.
Sony is in the business of selling copies of music/movies they own each copy created needs to be created by Sony and sold by Sony. Only those are legit.
The Future
The good news is that the technology exists, it is spreading slowly, in future a minis maker like Foundry or Reaper might have 3D scanners and Printers and might consider doing one-offs. Technically it is feasible right now; economically I don't think it is quite here yet.
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Frustrations of scale drive me bananas. ...
... I have already purchased the various figures in question but I cannot use them due to severe scale issues.
Lucky you were not there ::) when this photo was taken...
(http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/etexts/WH2Arti/WH2Art122a.jpg)
...or the caption would read differently, e.g:
Jack Mitchell conducts the Rt. Hon. Fram Framson on an inspection of some of the 7th Anti-Tank after the Cassino battle. Unfortunately, Framson was driven mad by the experience and had to be led away to hospital. He was overheard mumbling, "That bloke is a head taller than number four..."
:D
You could just accept a little reality amongst your little lead men ... Just a thought.
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without wanting to mix up discussion about
- scale in 28mm: I made various remarks on this topic often enough, don't need to repeat them here (yes the weapons too...)
- it is technically possible and the technology is available, 3D Print in full colour and 3D scan with proper resolution (Yes Creaform can scan scratches on bones...) - it is too expensive to be marketable for the hobby still IMHO
up- and downscaling is not a problem either whatever can be done with pictures, is possible with 3D digital models too - however , the eye is forgiving, not the digital printer, so resolution and quality issues will still need some tweaking, whether by hand or automated software
- the IP issue of 3D scans is still a Black Hole of jurisdiction, from what I was advised recently (the context was museum pieces), the 3D scan of an object belongs to the person who made it who can do with it as person likes - print it, etc. (in the same way I can use a picture I take of something, provided the owner of the object does not claim property rights) If this legislation does not change, it will have serious implications not only for our hobby but for other "hobbies" too....
expect huge legal battles...
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<snip>
expect huge legal battles...
Yes, that is a concern of mine. No matter where you stand on IP rights and no matter what the results of the cases those legal costs won't lower the pricing of the figures.
Gracias,
Glenn
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3D scanners are already out there. I used to use one at work. It was accurate to 0,07 mm more than enough for highly detailed figures.But as someone mentioned very expensive about £30,000 a few years ago but I am sure as with the 3D printing it will get cheaper.
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http://www.maplin.co.uk/3d-printer
Lower end of the market.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fabtotum-personal-fabricator
Future end of the market! this machine is what you really need if you aren't very good at 3d modelling ,as it incorporates scanner ,printer ,and milling machine in one. it also doesn't need the 3d files converting to the right format ,since they all come from the same place.
A machine like this is what you want if you intend to produce 3d printed masters for remoulding.the only problem is that the actual printer is fairly low res ,but im sure in the future a similar all in 1 device could be made with a resin pool printer instead.
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Jokes aside, I am far from the only person who has issues with scale differences between figures. Pretending such concerns are irrelevant is silly.
@ Pendrake: What do you suggest in case where the alternate format does not actually exist for the company in question? It's one thing to say you should buy a region 2 DVD rather than copying a Region 1 DVD over, but what if a company simply does not make a Region 2 DVD? Stare blankly at a wall beamoaning format issues?
In your example, if Foundry made what I wanted, I would just buy that. There's no point in artificially complicating some hypothetical situation just to make a point about IP.
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Jokes aside, I am far from the only person who has issues with scale differences between figures. Pretending such concerns are irrelevant is silly.
<snip>
I seem to be disagreeing with you a lot in this thread, please forgive me if I come over disagreeable. I don't mean to "sound" that way but you lose so much in print.
Are you the only person who feels that way?
If you mean you want all the figures of the same race/species to be almost exactly the same height? I know a few others but they generally play mass battle Seven year War Games in 15 mm. ;) lol Seriously, no you are not. I have certain height ranges that appeal mostly to me in figures - 20 to 25 mm dwarves yes, 35 mm dwarves not so much. Others feel much like you do.
Now named characters in a known setting? You have room to complain if "Battlebrat the Dwarf thief" is a full header taller than "Dumbon the the Tall and Massive" who is a Barbarian. And a named character that is known to be 5' 8" should be visibly shorter than one known to be 6' 2" even if it isn't too much of a difference in scale. Yes, I know "size" is not a "scale" but I am talking in War-Gamer not English. :)
If you are dealing with <insert species/race here> warriors, especially humans, who average between 25 mm and 28 mm then no, I don't think you have a lot of empathy/sympathy complaining about the size difference IMO. But then it is not my game we are talking about is it? It is what you and you co-players preferences are.
Honestly I think you have less room to complain about non-humans unless the game setting, for example, takes the (to me) rather (Peter Jackson) foolish assumption that all elves are significantly taller than Humans. I don't remember Elves being all so tall from LOTR (I read over 20 times in my youth but not recently) but I have never bothered to follow up after seeing the LOTR movies so he may be right. But I may be warped because I remember playing The Gygax/Perrin rules Chainmail where (depending if you used 30 or 40 mm humans) Elves were (in the former case) around 25 mm and dwarves around 20 mm - IIRC. I won't go look it up right now but those numbers sound right... My point is that there is no real world norm for fantasy races except as the author/game writer/GM arbitrarily sets the norm. So I think unless you pre-define fantasy races as a certain size there is lots of latitude for varying heights.
It's like complaining that female figures should always be shorter than male figures. I'm 5' 4.75" on a good day and my first wife was around 5' 6" in height. My current wife is right around 5' 3" tall. Variability is the norm.
Now it is very irritating when two ranges are said to be "x" mm 'scale' and one company measures to the top of the head standing upright and the other measures to the eyes of a crouching figure. I have actually seen that and I sold off the 'offending' figure and bought no more from that source. But I was younger and less flexible then. Now days I would just give him a name for a mythical racial sub-species of human and declare the common view from others is that they "would be giants" in my games.
Heft is an issue too but let's not go there because it just complicates your question.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
@ Pendrake: What do you suggest in case where the alternate format does not actually exist for the company in question? It's one thing to say you should buy a region 2 DVD rather than copying a Region 1 DVD over, but what if a company simply does not make a Region 2 DVD? Stare blankly at a wall beamoaning format issues?
In your example, if Foundry made what I wanted, I would just buy that. There's no point in artificially complicating some hypothetical situation just to make a point about IP.
It's not hypothetical. It is a legal reality. I would love to have recasts of the old Grenadier Power Armor figures that are "less than 25 mm but taller than 20 mm" in the suit because it would allow me to finish building a SST book Platoon. But recasting them is possibly morally and certainly ethically wrong along with being legally culpable. Thank is simply legally fact. Yeah, not legal is ever really completely simple but this is pretty close.
I could have someone sculpt compatible figures and have them cast. Expensive for my budget? You bet! But it would be the correct solution.
YMMV.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I really don't get the insistence on proving that I am "objectvely" wrong on what is a matter of opinion (scale of figures). Why do we even have the scale-o-matic if people don't have concerns about scale compatibility? I prefer my figures to be close enough in size that none of them stick out and look "wrong" - that's all. If I need a six-foot fellow, but got an under-five-foot shortarse, that won't work. Period.
As to your second post, it is apparent that at least a few people have Strong Feelings on IP. While I believe in fair compensation for creators and always buy directly from the original mini creator where possible, it is clear I would have... disagreements with some of the exremely narrow views I've seen. In lieu of that, I will repeat again that IP is not a topic I wanted to discuss directly, because I doubt that will have any outcome other than an argument and a locked thread. If people could stick to the technical questions, which are the thread's intended purpose, that would be appreciated.
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I fully agree, but I guess everything about the OT has been said so far
we could discuss about options how 3D printed miniatures could be marketed, especially painted ones
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I fully agree, but I guess everything about the OT has been said so far
we could discuss about options how 3D printed miniatures could be marketed, especially painted ones
Both comments work for me.
Gracias,
Glenn
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<snip>
we could discuss about options how 3D printed miniatures could be marketed, especially painted ones
<snip>
Well, that is am interesting thought - I would suppose that "premium" figures would be capable of being eventually created "pre-painted" so that one of the options in the printing would be clothing/uniform color...
Possibly "flesh" color options? That may create PC issues for the overly sensitive but it would be a preference if you were using both European and native Askaris.
Multi-part options for arming specific figures with specific weapons? One rapier armed, one musket armed, one with a club, one unarmed (non-fighter,) one with a pole arm type selections?
The same figure as a female or disguised as a male?
Gracias,
Glenn
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You are describing two different things here
the simple one is coloured printing along defined colour borders and a range of pre-defined categories, like skin colour
printing out different weapons of the same category, like sword/sabre/axe or revolver/pistol/sawn of shotgun shouldn't be a problem either, although this is the other thing and could look occasionally unconvincing.
changes of posture isn't that simple - You'd need software to tweak the body and rearrange the clothing - this is very complex