Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: twrchtrwyth on May 26, 2008, 08:16:26 PM
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I've read more than one comment about the apparent difficulty to understand Contemptible Little Armies and In The Heart Of Africa, the layout not being very clear or the style being to conversational, etc. So let's see if people do indeed find them difficult.
Edit:Changed the title and the above text, less personal.
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I removed that poll, please feel free to discuss about Chris Peers rules but not in this way. I don't like the idea of making the person of Chis Peers who's a really nice guy and his very passionate work to the matter of a "fun" poll.
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I guess there are a lot of rules sets not by Chris Peers that are even more complicated to comprehend, but that are definitely milestones in wargaming. Must I mention Phil Barker?
I think Chris Peers Rules are very good in a friendly group of players willing to find compromises that help the gameflow, even better with an umpire. For inexperienced players they are hard to play.
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I removed that poll, please feel free to discuss about Chris Peers rules but not in this way. I don't like the idea of making the person of Chis Peers who's a really nice guy and his very passionate work to the matter of a "fun" poll.
Sorry Prof, I used the word fun in the hope it wouldn't be seen as a negative thing. My bad.
Personally I like his rules very much. I don't find them that complicated, they would however benefit from a quick reference sheet. His army list book for In the Heart of Africa is one of the best pieces of research I've seen.
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His army list book for In the Heart of Africa is one of the best pieces of research I've seen.
seconded, another great source of information and inspiration!
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His army list book for In the Heart of Africa is one of the best pieces of research I've seen.
Yes his army books are very very good ( I have them all ) but I realy ****the game !!!!
Why ,you ask ?
for me I replay FOR ME it is difficulty to understand the rules and it was a hard to read and understand them .
You may think that my english is not good enugh to read rules but I must say I play and read a lot of english rules and I never have such a problem with them .
Anyway that all is my problem .
What I realy diden´t like is the price and all they get them will understand why I think so .
Please note I dident what to hit Chis Peers in person I only what to say what I think about the rules .
Grimm
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I can follow Grimm. I tried FutureWars and I missed a logical structure in the book. Maybe Chris peers needs only a good lecturer and these rules will be perfect. And, we only talk about the rules, not the person...
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I dont find the rules too bad, not my thing though the mechanisms dont really appeal. I think the best thing to do is create QR sheets if you can this worked better for me rather than work my way through the book as I was playing games.
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I guess there are a lot of rules sets not by Chris Peers that are even more complicated to comprehend, but that are definitely milestones in wargaming. Must I mention Phil Barker?
I disagree slightly, WRG rules are not so much hard to understand as hard to use. Their evolution into The rules for competition gaming (as was), led to numerous rules to cover every eventuality and close every loophole, leading to numerous editions. I recall spending a lot of game time looking for those elusive sentences that negated actions that my opponent undertook.
I only vaguely remember the 'Heart of Africa' rules when they were in WI, but don't recall thinking they were particularly complex, obviously things may have changed or my memory isn't what it was. I would imagine writing style may have been a factor though. Like any language, 'conversational' English differs greatly from the grammatically correct form. I presume Mr Peers, like the majority of writers, didn't consider the impact this would have on non-native English readers perhaps?
Having just re-read my post, neither did I :?
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I liked the general approach of CLA and derivatives as well as that certain "tongue-in-cheek" style. However, I agree 100% that the layout and sequence of rules sections leave very much to be desired.
The table of contents helps a bit, but no index, and no real logical structure to the rules make it terribly difficult to peruse. You may note, though, that I took a similar approach to style of writing, yet attempted to provide a clear structure in our "T&T" rules. In effect, it was a Peers CLA article ("A Damn Foolish Thing in the Balkans") which got me started on the WW1 road, and his Shirdan campaign still ranks among my absolute favourite articles ever in WI.
Three cheers for Peers, and here´s hope that he some time gets a good corrector/editor. We do not require fancily-illustrated rules (although it´s certainly a boon!), but good structure goes a long way!
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I must be particularly dim, as I rarely find that I have difficulty following *any* rules, including those from the WRG stable.
I like all of Mr. Peers' rules that I've tried. My favorite is "A Good Day to Die". I admit that I was introduced to it by Tim Greene, the co-author of the supplements for that game, who demoed it at a local show. But the sequence made sense once explained, and we players ran it ourselves after the first turn.
Allen
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Good day to die is a set of rules which I like very much and represent small actions very well for indian warparties etc and the supplement for campaigns works quite well too.
For CLA it is worth either buying or having a butchers at the army list supplements which give you the forces to use
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I have used "In the Heart of Africa" quite a bit. I found it to be very easy to understand and use. And I love the army list book.
I can't imagine anyone having trouble with it. But that's just me.
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I admit that I was introduced to it by Tim Greene, the co-author of the supplements for that game, who demoed it at a local show. But the sequence made sense once explained, and we players ran it ourselves after the first turn.
That's exactly the problem. The rules do make sense, but you need someone to show you the way or you get easily frustrated for teh reasons mentioned above.
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Well, I acquired a set of HOA & army lists thru an Ebay figure purchase, showed them to a group of guys at the club and I don't think we've had any problems other than our brain cells being reduced thru various causes in understanding the rules or lists. Have had a couple of people sit in games & they have run with them fairly well. Mind you, one of the guys is familiar with CLA and was able to guide us along the paths/tracks.
I admit that I was introduced to it by Tim Greene, the co-author of the supplements for that game, who demoed it at a local show. But the sequence made sense once explained, and we players ran it ourselves after the first turn.
That's exactly the problem. The rules do make sense, but you need someone to show you the way or you get easily frustrated for teh reasons mentioned above.
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Heart of Africa is what saved my gaming soul and broke me from the grip of GW style gaming. Having never played CLA I cannot comment, but HOA nothing but praise.
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It's been a while, but IIRC CLA was pretty straightforward.
I would agree that Mr. Peers' games benefit hugely from a playsheet, though. Improves an otherwise good game considerably.
I like his modern and WW2 sets, "At Close Quarters" and "A Corner of Hell" - they run on the same "engine". I do find something in the morale rules a little bit funky, though. I haven't figured out whether that's because I've misinterpreted something, or because the rule itself is a little dodgy.
On the whole, good rules, but definitely recommend playing them only with friends and non-rule barristers.
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I can say that one of the things Rich (Rattrap) and I are working on are revisions that reorganize the material in the book and to provide quick reference sheets.
CLA will be one of the first revisions released.
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I think the writing and organization leaves a great deal to be desired (then again, so do most). Chris is a nice guy, but he's not usually willing to provide much support for the game online, and he seems to lose interest in one project and move on to another, sort of leaving some games "in the lurch", as it were. Not an attack on Chris, who's a perfectly pleasant guy, just an observation.
The games are playable, but yes, it frequently does help to have someone who knows the system to walk you through them.
-Doc
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as with with most writing that is about the content (instruction manuals, specialized books, scientific papers), the authors are good about what they write, and many do not have the talent to write
in our hobby, companies can't afford wordsmiths to edit their paperwork - I guess we have to live with it (I think there is no need to mention a certain market leader who actually could afford, but doesn't )
it is only good luck if one has a good friend who is talented with that and takes the time to read over it
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If you run into a question during a game it's pretty hard to find an answer in the rules, i.e. there are some shooting rules in the movement section, in the section on equipment and so on.
A Quick reference sheet and an INDEX would be great!
It would also be great if any rules regarding one subject could be found completely in one section, even if it means to have them several times in different sections.
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Getting things organized is one of the things I am working on. There will be quick reference sheets added to all the books at some point. Now if only I could find an assistant willing to work for free... ;D
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Will you make the quick reference sheet avaialble for download?
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Will you make the quick reference sheet avaialble for download?
That is MY plan. I just need to convince the partner of the benefit of it. :)
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What are the objections?
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Many of the yahoo groups of the games already have Quick Reference Sheets in the files sections. These might be a good basis.
Operator5, do you have plans to change any rules or just reorganise them?
I hope to play some future wars scenarios soon :)
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A small group of us used the CLA rules which we found very enjoyable , I cannot remember having any issues understanding them.
I'm working my way through Future Wars right now and like the style .
An update would be good though. ;)
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Many of the yahoo groups of the games already have Quick Reference Sheets in the files sections. These might be a good basis.
Operator5, do you have plans to change any rules or just reorganise them?
I hope to play some future wars scenarios soon :)
I would say 90% reorganize, 9% clarify (more examples), and 1% potentially change. At first only the 90% is going to be done and that is all I am working on at the moment. I need to get a few games under my belt before I can really look at the remaining 10%.
As for objections, There is some discussion over things being given away for free. Personally, things like a QRS are a good aid for players to get free. But like people who refuse to consider selling PDFs, some people believe that giving away a QRS will mean that fewer players will buy the rules. I don't think I have ever had that problem with anything of mine that I sell, but I can't say for sure that people buy 1 set of rules and everyone else buys the QRS.
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I have all your .45 Adventure stuff, because you give away a lot of free stuff.
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I know a lot of people do. They want to see the company supporting them if they are going to support the company. So, believe me when I say I am on your side in this issue and will push for it. However, it's not entirely in my control to just offer free stuff for these rules. I'll do my best though, that I promise. :)
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I have all your .45 Adventure stuff, because you give away a lot of free stuff.
Me too. I downloaded the free "lite" version of .45 and liked it so much I have now bought it and virtually all your other rules.
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I'll just "me too" the above - the sample rules, and the free adventures playable with the sample rules, convinced me to cough up for PDFs of everything 45A-related Rattrap has put out so far.
"Freebies" do work, so do PDFs!