Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Teshub on May 14, 2014, 12:44:44 AM
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I have a student who is researching Saladin and I was unable to help him locate a genuine coat of arms for his project.
I don't know if this great Muslim general had a family crest or not but I figured I would be best off asking at the LAF!
So does anyone here know of Saladin's colors or emblem?
Please post pic if possible :)
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Hi, I'm not a huge expert,
but I'm pretty sure Saladin (and the Muslim world generally) didn't have a personal crest or sygil in the way western knights would have done, it is possible that Saladin would have used the crescent moon as a personal symbol, or he may have flown the black banner of Jihad, having declared himself leader of a holy war against the Crusader kingdoms. By and large Islamic art is not representational (exclude Sufism) and so a calligraphic or geometric device might be accurate.
The later Mamluk leader Bibars was known as the Lion of the desert, I don't think that's relevant, or a source of a crest.
would be very interested to find out more about the progress of this search.
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As Alder says, Islam largely discourages 'aniconism' (the depiction of any 'sentient living creature' in art; hence all the flowers, plants, stars and geometric patterns which adorn buildings), developing a form of heraldry was pretty much a non-starter for them. Nevertheless the Eagle is associated with him, to the point that the one on the Egyptian crest is termed the 'Gold Eagle of Saladin' and another eagle appears on the wall of Cairo's citadel, which was built during Saladin's rule.
I'm no expert either, but I suspect that a coloured flag, with either a quote from the Quran, a hadith (traditional saying usually relating to something in the Quran), or one of the more usual crescent moon and star combinations, are probably far more likely for a personal standard and possibly several might have been used over time, there being no particular attachment to them in the same way as a coat of arms.
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I have not at hand the book, but I think that in WRG Armies of the Crusades it says that personal badge of Saladin was a falcon. But I am speaking from memory. I´ll check as soon I return home.
Emilio.
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Slightly off topic but I remember being told by our college art teacher (who was well educated in the subject) that if you represent Islamic script it has to be done right and not just scribbles as it causes offence.
Whether this would count for wargaming I wouldn't know as it'll so bloody small you wouldn't e able to read it anyway lol
cheers
James
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والحمد لله تمت ترجمة جوجل أنها تغطي
(Thankfully google translate has it covered) ;)
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والحمد لله تمت ترجمة جوجل أنها تغطي
(Thankfully google translate has it covered) ;)
Ah, but for those of us challenged by time.... what does it say?
I thought perhaps some of his titles as well (He did have rather a lot of them)?
Darrell.
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No, that's exactly what it says - 'Thankfully Google Translate Has it Covered'.
That third group of characters that look a bit like a pair of eyes with a fringe coming down to the side of one of them, that's the Arabic for 'Google'.
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No, that's exactly what it says - 'Thankfully Google Translate Has it Covered'.
lol
Darrell.
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You're obviously trying to read it from left to right, a common error. ;)
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On a side note the reason for the shapes in Arabic script is due to a lack of writing materials in the Arabian peninsular (too hot for wax tablets, no papyrus etc) so the calligraphy was formed from carving into rocks, which resulted in a language with long chisel strokes.
Dating in terms of the Arab conquest can be done through the development of a style influenced by other handwritings and the ability to make more complex flowing lines on written mediums newly made available.
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I'm no expert either, but I suspect that a coloured flag, with either a quote from the Quran, a hadith (traditional saying usually relating to something in the Quran)
Like "Peace now!", "Save the Whales!", "Totes amazeballs!"or "Kilroy was here!"?
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السلام الآن!
انقاذ الحيتان!
مستحضرات تجميل amazeballs!
كان كيلروي هنا!
I would have all four banners in an army. I think they'd look quite fetching.
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Like "Peace now!", "Save the Whales!", "Totes amazeballs!"or "Kilroy was here!"?
Please! Something historical, like;
ذهبت إلى حصار عكا وجميع ما حصلت عليه هو هذا الشعار رديء
(I went to the siege of Acre and all I got was this lousy banner)
;)
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I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members). The book shows a shield (a drawing) with an eagle, and under the eagle a cup (for the cupbearers). A probably colour is yellow. Abbyubid elite troops used yellow coats.
Emilio.
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I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members). The book shows a shield (a drawing) with an eagle, and under the eagle a cup (for the cupbearers). A probably colour is yellow. Abbyubid elite troops used yellow coats.
Emilio.
Good point, the high aristocracy (we're talking Royalty) of Europe were the only people allowed to do any hunting with and eagle so why not the same in the Meddle East about the same time?
Darrell.
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I'm not sure where they derive from originally, but these are supposedly based on original Ayyubid designs;
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r_H1xwrKDqY/U3TayaU8lAI/AAAAAAAASOU/ndzUzn1ZniQ/w347-h493-no/saladinvb3.gif)
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I'm not sure where they derive from originally, but these are supposedly based on original Ayyubid designs;
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r_H1xwrKDqY/U3TayaU8lAI/AAAAAAAASOU/ndzUzn1ZniQ/w347-h493-no/saladinvb3.gif)
I've seen those before but cannot place them...... ??? ??? ???
Darrell.
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I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members).
I'm sorry, but I don't see that happening at all and I think they have made an error. As already stated, any image of a living creature was seen as blasphemous. I don't see the defender of Islam doing that or getting away with it if he did. Having said that, occasionally there was a 'back door' way of doing it, by manipulating the Arabic characters into resembling the shape of the thing it described.
All I've read about Saladin reinforces what others have said about him using banners with quotes from the Qu'ran.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see that happening at all and I think they have made an error. As already stated, any image of a living creature was seen as blasphemous. I don't see the defender of Islam doing that or getting away with it if he did. Having said that, occasionally there was a 'back door' way of doing it, by manipulating the Arabic characters into resembling the shape of the thing it described.
All I've read about Saladin reinforces what others have said about him using banners with quotes from the Qu'ran.
I understand what you say, but..... Saladin was Kurd, not arab. And most Saladin troops were turkish. These are "new" muslims. Persians painted animals and persons. Moghuls too. Ottomans too. You can find a lot of examples in the web. Saladin was the Sultan, who was going to claim?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZBR83mQV3_Y/Us93qLMPv2I/AAAAAAAAAk8/0VLIw7qDAoA/s1600/st+petersburg+Maler_um_1230_005_OBNP2009-Y04626.jpg)
Emilio.
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To avoid confusion, I have to say that I am talking about SHIELD badges, not standards or flags. Sorry if I wasn´t clear.
Emilio.
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Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.
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Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.
You just have to look at Ottoman art really..... I know it's from a later period but there was as much variation in Islam as there was in the many Christian 'sects' that grew over time.
Darrell.
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I'm dubious, as Saladin would have taken on the mantle of 'defender of the faithful' in his position, Kurd or not and was likely more Islamic than most. However the proscription against representing living creatures does not come from the Quran itself either, but from a hadith, which are sort of 'what God would have said had he the time to tell us everything' (some of which are disputed, hence the factions within Islam), rather than his direct words to his chosen prophet.
So potentially it is possible he did use a badge and such badges occasionally appear... as at Cairo. Certainly in the present too 'secular' Arab states do use animals on their national coats of arms.
Christians occasionally gave certain enemies, or legendary figures, 'honorary' coats of arms they never had too, as a representation of their apparent nobility and it may be that the association of Saladin (or others) with a particular badge may be wishful thinking rather than historic fact.
To avoid confusion, I have to say that I am talking about SHIELD badges, not standards or flags. Sorry if I wasn´t clear.
Generally speaking shield designs were often repeated on banners, in later periods anyway. At this point I don't know, but if an individual was known by his 'badge' I would assume he would display it on banner and shield as a big 'here I am' sort of statement.
Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.
That's the joy of LAF, it is a rare day when I don't learn at least one new thing from it. :)
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I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members). The book shows a shield (a drawing) with an eagle, and under the eagle a cup (for the cupbearers). A probably colour is yellow. Abbyubid elite troops used yellow coats.
Emilio.
The association stems from a relief depicting a stylized eagle on the west wall of the Citadel of Cairo, which was constructed under Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn/Saladin to protect the city from the Crusaders in 1176-1183:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3716/9397696456_67f8e8e88f_z.jpg)
There is no other evidence to suggest that the eagle was used as a personal emblem by Saladin, so the identification as such is widely contested. However, it is popularly believed to be so, and the "Eagle of Saladin" is currently used in both the national flag and the coat of arms for Egypt:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Flag_of_Egypt.svg/800px-Flag_of_Egypt.svg.png)
(http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/k/e/r/kerkoda-2089415.jpg)
Cheers,
Scott
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Scott,
Bloody hell, the last image looks kind of fascist!! :o :-[
Darrell.
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Looks like I need to hand round some apologies because was dead wrong about this. I am really surprised because I thought Muslim societies never used images of living things.
I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.
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I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.
True, we all do it every day :).
Darrell.
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Scott,
Bloody hell, the last image looks kind of fascist!! :o :-[
Darrell.
Hi Darrell,
Many of these eagle symbols are directly or indirectly referencing Imperial Rome, and the Eagle of Jupiter:
(http://images.clevelandart.org/prd1/ump.secure_uma?surl=763674924ZZZUUBLTZOEUR&enc=78C2E07A3177A737B720B84B2912FDE46B7E0F0E42B1DF053D5161A2097716CB)
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/9f/0c/71/9f0c7185db515ff9488cc6a150b52cad.jpg)
(http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/titus/RIC_0861%5Bvesp%5D.jpg)
Cheers,
Scott
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I am really surprised because I thought Muslim societies never used images of living things.
I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.
It's all good, Cubs... I learn new things here all the time! :)
Cheers,
Scott
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Hi Darrell,
Many of these eagle symbols are directly or indirectly referencing Imperial Rome, and the Eagle of Jupiter:
(http://images.clevelandart.org/prd1/ump.secure_uma?surl=763674924ZZZUUBLTZOEUR&enc=78C2E07A3177A737B720B84B2912FDE46B7E0F0E42B1DF053D5161A2097716CB)
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/9f/0c/71/9f0c7185db515ff9488cc6a150b52cad.jpg)
(http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/titus/RIC_0861%5Bvesp%5D.jpg)
Cheers,
Scott
I hope I didn't put my foot in it? Not mean't to be so.
I guess the Eagle figure does have a strong military slant to it anyway.
Darrell.
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What an incredible response to this question, thank you all. I really appreciated that Eagle from The Citadel of Cairo without a doubt!
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I hope I didn't put my foot in it? Not mean't to be so.
No offense taken, Darrell! :)
I was just pointing out that many different governments have used the eagle and other symbols borrowed from the Roman Empire to suggest that they are similarly powerful and enduring. And that probably explains your initial reaction to the Egyptian eagle - because it does look very much like the ones used by the Nazis and the Italian Fascists (who also took their name from the fasces borne by Roman lictors), among others.
Cheers,
Scott
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... the Italian Fascists (who also took their name from the fasces borne by Roman lictors),
Which presumably explains why they were so full of faeces.
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No offense taken, Darrell! :)
Ah, good... was worried a bit there when I re-read my post o_o.
I was just pointing out that many different governments have used the eagle and other symbols borrowed from the Roman Empire to suggest that they are similarly powerful and enduring. And that probably explains your initial reaction to the Egyptian eagle - because it does look very much like the ones used by the Nazis and the Italian Fascists (who also took their name from the fasces borne by Roman lictors), among others.
Yeah, it's quite amazing, but perhaps not surprising, that such iconography has stayed the course of time in it's symbolic meaning really.
Darrell.
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Certainly you might describe Nasser's Egypt, from which the modern flag derives, as being essentially 'quasi-fascist'. Indeed given the meaning attached to each of the colours in the flag, the use of Saladin's Eagle in it pretty much backs A Lot of Gaul's point for me.
:)
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Looks like I need to hand round some apologies because was dead wrong about this. I am really surprised because I thought Muslim societies never used images of living things.
I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.
Don´t worry! When I was at secondary school, we learnt too that spanish muslim art didn´t use live beings, because was forbidden by its religion. So they used stylized leaves (like) and geometric designs. But there are exceptions to all rules. Bytheway, I have never seen spanish muslim flags with live beings as devices, only geometric and arab script.
In Saladin´s case, I would say that Egypt was Fatimite (Shia) until he changed the country´s religion to sunnite. Sunnies are not so fervent. And coming from a warrior caste, I don´t see improbable that he used a personal badge of that kind.
Emilio.
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السلام الآن!
انقاذ الحيتان!
مستحضرات تجميل amazeballs!
كان كيلروي هنا!
I would have all four banners in an army. I think they'd look quite fetching.
Is there really no word in Arabic for Amazeballs! I find that very surprising! ;D
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Heraldic Symbols Islamic insignia and Western Heraldry mentions the following for the Ayyubids (the family of Saladin) : the Ayyubid rulers of Hama wore bendy or, gules, or and sable a chief argent. Different rulers had an emblem on the chief eg. Muzaffar II a lion gules
hope this helps
Carl