Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: former user on July 24, 2014, 04:25:11 PM
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This thread is devoted to the Military of the French Third Republic during the Inter-War Years (and to a point drifting into WWII up to 1942). The aim is to collect information on forces and units, as well as links to figure and vehicle ranges that contain useful items for this period.
Since we will be dealing with the products of sculptors, designers and trade companies, I would like to ask contributors to refrain from negatively evaluating the hard work of others and to use 'constructive criticism' instead. It is fine to point out a range which is significantly smaller than another of the same 'size' for example, but your opinion that 'Sculptor A' is better than 'Sculptor B' is best kept to yourself.
Please by all means feel free to contribute links and photos, especially comparisons if you have them. This thread is intended to be a useful resource for all things 'French', colonial or metropolitan, which would otherwise be scattered across several boards here.
This post will be used to create an edited list of the figure lines which appear in subsequent posts, as a 'one stop shop'.
Artizan Designs (sculpted by Mike Owen)
March or Die Link (http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=21&page=1) Just about squeezing into the period are these classic "Beau Geste" style figures. There are also some 'Armee d'Afrique' troops too.
Pulp Range Link (http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=12&page=1) As the title says. Only 6 very characterful...characters, which actually do look the part for our period.
WW2 Link (http://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=15&cat=104&page=1) The standard 20 infantry set, complete with post 1925 LMG. Useful for WW2 with Vichy troops. Bonus 5 figures in shorts, just as known from the Bir Hakeim newsreels.
Askari Miniatures
Link (http://www.askari-minis.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21&zenid=cir2f5msuh2jmh41vrdellk811) - A fair range of items covering the Armée d'Afrique both before and after the Great War. Also has artillery and even a mountain gun mule team.
Battle Honours
Great War Range Link (http://oldglory15s.com/French_c271.htm) - Early War style figures including infantry, artillery, cavalry, and even zouaves and zouave Mg team (with pics).
WWII Range Link (http://oldglory15s.com/French_c298.htm) - Infantry, Mechanized infantry, Alpine infantry, Groups Francs (no pics).
As 25mm figures, some people feel they are undersized in comparison with some other ranges. Mr Allen Curtis posted this picture (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c161/aecurtis/Wargaming/Figures/BHBAMBHBAM.jpg) of alternate Battle Honours and Bolt Action figures, so you can judge for yourselves.
Brigade Games
Great War French Link (http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/France_c_373.html)
Crusader Miniatures
WW2 French Infantry Link (http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/list.php?cat=9&sub=23&page=1).
Ebor Miniatures
Great War (1914) French Link (http://www.eborminiatures.com/products-page/french-army-1914/).
Gorgon Studios
Link (http://www.gorgon-studios.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=18_23&zenid=98b7759bd6cfe9d53b64a19b3f2eca3c) Small range of French Foreign Legion for the Narvik Expedition 1940.
Great War Miniatures
Great War French (1914) Link (http://www.northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=20&cat=153&sub=227&page=1). Also has a M1897 Field Gun (Link (http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5803))
Old Glory
'Sons of the Desert' Link (http://www.oldgloryuk.com/sons-of-the-desert/11/64/191/192) - Classic 'Beau Geste' era.
French Sailors and Marines Link (http://www.oldgloryuk.com/great-powers/11/21/32/27) - Boxer Rebellion but should pass for 1920s.
Great War French Link (http://www.oldgloryuk.com/french/12/41/85/80)
Old Glory figures are advertised as 25mm and with no photos on the site, how they might compare with others is impossible to gauge.
Perry Miniatures
Free French Foreign Legion for 1940-42 Link (https://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=23_74_84&osCsid=codoe7k02p0haej4n7l2qmhgq2)
Renegade Miniatures
Great War French (1914) Link (http://www.renegademiniatures.com/ww1fr.htm).
Scarab Miniatures
Great War (Early & Late) Link (http://scarabminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5_19&zenid=e0eebcce7d1d69038a3e3f0d4949e869).
Warlord Games
WWII French Link (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/french-army) - Probably the most comprehensive range of WWII French ranges around. As yet no motorised infantry, but Tirailleurs Sénégalais are there to march alongside the Poilus. Growing vehicle range with the acquisition of part of the Force of Arms vehicle range.
Woodbine Design
Great War French Link (http://www.grippingbeast.com/French--category--239.html) - Designed for the Dardanelles Campaign, these figures feature a selection of head types allowing different unit types to be created.
Reference
Links to Sites Dealing With Organisation & Equipment
Armée de Terre Française 1940 (http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/) - (French) Site devoted to the French Army of 1940.
French Armed Forces (http://www.niehorster.org/020_france/__france.htm) - Leo Niehorster's orbats.
France 1940 (http://france1940.free.fr/en_index.html) - Dual language site devoted to the French armed forces of 1940. Detailed unit break downs, including vehicle and gun types used in various units. Includes details on Syrian and African units too.
Various Reference Material
French Ministry of Defence (http://www.ecpad.fr/) - (French) French MoD's Historical Section site. Vast photo source, so you really can just look at the pictures!
Chars Française (http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/) - Nice site devoted to French armoured vehicles. As Etranger says, no excuse not to get the colour schemes right now!
French Saddlery & Horse Drawn Vehicles (http://www.lovettartillery.com/French_Army_Saddles_Wagons_WW1_.html) - (French) WWI Era reference source.
Histoire Technique de l'Artillerie Française (http://www.artillerie.info/) - (French) Useful site devoted to French Artillery.
Blogs
Mon Légionnaire (https://monlegionnaire.wordpress.com/) - Blog devoted to all things relating to wargaming the 'classic era' Foreign Legion; fact, fiction, literature and film.
CollMili95 (http://collmili95.skyrock.com/15.html) - Blog containing a number of colour plates relating to the French Army of 1935. Much more stuff buried on this guy's blog, so well worth a look.
Other Links
Passion for Cannon (http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/english_CanonsIndex_Nation.html#France) - Listing of surviving Great War Era French artillery pieces and their locations around the World.
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Recommended books :
Le soldat français 1940 - Tome 1 Olivier Bellec ( Uniforms )
Le soldat français 1940 - Tome 2 Olivier Bellec ( equipement, weapons, organization, ... )
On motorized French Army :
long out of print "l'automobile sous l'uniforme" from François Vauvilliers ( if you can find one second hand buy it )
"THE ENCYCLODEPIA OF FRENCH TANKS and Armoured Vehicles 1914-1940" from François Vauvillier avaible from Amazon and others
La collection Vauvillier Tous les Renault militaires 1914-1940
(https://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/63/95/43/captur12.png)
and more to come :
(https://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/63/95/43/captur13.png)
on camo : "Peinture de guerre Un siècle de camouflages de l'armée Française" from Pascal DANJOU - Thomas SEIGNON ( half text in english ;) , avaible here (http://www.minitracks.fr/index.htm)
Vehicles avaibility ( for the cars and trucks, only those used in significant number are listed )
as question about the avaibility of spare Machine guns is common :
Hotchkiss Mle 1914 : Askari Miniatures ( best model avaible , IMO ) https://askari-minis.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23_45&products_id=333&zenid=qt83ta4u2s5o661bu2lo8cgr31 (https://askari-minis.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23_45&products_id=333&zenid=qt83ta4u2s5o661bu2lo8cgr31)
MAC 31 Reibel : avaible from Shapeways : https://www.shapeways.com/product/5JY4X8AGT/ets56001-mac31-reibel-8-pieces?optionId=80161253&fbclid=IwAR3C3Lyov7BXHUbAX_aOyjvoGeptvDkyKrcfVgMSR-ILR1bMnL-JwyhtFKk (https://www.shapeways.com/product/5JY4X8AGT/ets56001-mac31-reibel-8-pieces?optionId=80161253&fbclid=IwAR3C3Lyov7BXHUbAX_aOyjvoGeptvDkyKrcfVgMSR-ILR1bMnL-JwyhtFKk) with spare magazines .
French Cars
a lot used,
Simca 5 ( fiat topolino ) :
Peugeot 202 :
Renault Primaquatre, Celtaquatre, Novaquatre :
Peugeot 402 :
Citroen Traction : Siku diecast model 1/55 seem's quite correct, you can find it for less than 5€ . Rubicon Models
Simca 8 :
French "Camionette ( 1,5 tons trucks )
a lot used,
PEUGEOT DK 5 J :
RENAULT AGC :
CITROEN 23 :
BERLIET VSA : Warlord games WARNING THIS MODEL IS 1/72 ( no more avaible , thanks WG )
french Trucks :
2 tons :
Matford V8-81 : a diecast ford truck existed in the Corgi range
3,5 tons :
Citroen type 45 3,5 tons : Warlord games ( and not 4,5 tons as said by warlord )
RENAULT AGR :
4,5 tons :
RENAULT AGK :
MATFORD F917-WS :
BERLIET GDRA :
French Coach
Renault TN4, TN6 :
Isobloc :
Citroen type 45 Coach : Warlord Games
Foreign vehicles : ( around 1100 for the italian ones, and 7000 for the US ones were issued to french army before June 1940. US 2,5 tons trucks were mainly supplied to motorized infantry regiments )
Fiat Spa38 :
Fiat 626N :
Chevrolet TA 1,5 tons : Minairons Miniatures (http://www.minairons.eu/en/1-56-scale-vehicles-spanish-civil-war/415-1-56-chevrolet-15ton-truck-boxed-kit-8436545320594.html)
GMC ACK 353 2,5 tons :
Studebaker K25 :
White 504S :
Dodge VH48 : may be some day from Perry miniatures ( if Michael found the master John Hart sent him a long time ago lol )
Artillery tractors :
Heavy artillery tractor:
Somua MCG : Mad Bob Miniatures
Somua MCG 4-11 : Mad Bob Miniatures ( it's the extra heavy artillery tractor )
Laffly S35T : Mad Bob Miniatures
for 75mm & 105mm :
Unic P107 : Mad Bob Miniatures
Citroen Kegresse P17 :
Laffly S15T
for 47mm AC & 25mm AA
Laffly/Hotchkiss W15T : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/)
for 25mm AC
Laffly/Licorne V15T
Latil M7T1
Unic TU1
Renault UE : Mad Bob Miniatures . Warlord Games
and don't forget the horses ;)
Armored Supply Carriers
Infantry
Renault UE :Mad Bob Miniatures, Warlord Games
Tanks
Lorraine TRC 37L : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/) ( but if you want a trailer , you have to build one using the lorraine 38L trailer ) Neucraft Models (http://neucraftmodels.com/product/lorraine-37l-tractor-5001/) OOP ...
armoured transport :
Berlier VUDB (in morocco ) : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/)
Citroen-Kegresse P104 : Mad Bob Miniatures
Lorraine 38L with trailer : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/) Warlord Games
Panhard 179 : Mad Bob Miniatures
Unarmoured Transport :
Command and discovery vehicles ( VLTT )
Citroen Kegresse P19B : Mad Bob Miniatures
Lorraine 72
Laffly/Licorne V15R
Laffly S15R
"véhicules de dragons portés"
Citroen Kegresse C4 P10 :
Citroen Kegresse P19 : Mad Bob Miniatures
Laffly S20TL : Mad Bob Miniatures, Warlord Games
Lorraine 28 :
Self propeled gun:
Laffly W15 TCC : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/)
Lorraine 37L tank hunter : neucraft models (http://neucraftmodels.com/product/sa-mle-1937-47mm-anti-tank-gun-vehicle-mounted-5003/) OOP
Citroen Kegresse P19 25mm : Mad Bob Miniatures
French Armoured cars :
Chevrolet M37 Armoured car : Empress Miniatures (http://empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart31.htm)
AMC P 16 M 29 : Warlord games, Company B
LAFFLY 50 AM : 1st corps ( WW1 model, for WW2 change wheels, weapons and headlights ), Mad Bob Miniatures
CITROËN KEGRESSE P 28 :
RENAULT AMR 33 :
RENAULT AMR 35 : Army Group North,
PANHARD 165-175 : Mad Bob Miniatures
LAFFLY 80 AM : Mad Bob Miniatures (http://madbobminiatures.blogspot.fr/)
LAFFLY S 15 TOE :
PANHARD 178 : Army Group North, Warlord games,
RENAULT ACG 1 AMC 35 : Mad Bob Miniatures
DODGE TANAKE : Perry Miniatures
Motorbikes :
Gnome & Rhone Dragons Portés : Crusader Miniatures
French Tanks :
Renault FT : Brigade games, 1st corps, empress miniatures, Trenchworx , Mad Bob Miniatures Warlord Games
FCM 2C : Warlord games, ( même si seuls 6 exemplaires étaient en service )
Renault D1 : Warlord games,
Renault D2 :
Char B1 :
Renault R35/R39 : Army Group North, Warlord games, Rubicon Models, Blitzkrieg Miniatures, JTFM-die Waffenkammer
Hotchkiss H35 : Army Group North
Somua S35 : Army Group North, Blitzkrieg Miniatures, Warlord games,
FCM 36 : Mad Bob Miniatures
Char B1 bis : Army Group North, Warlord games,
Hotchkiss H39 : Army Group North , Mad Bob Miniatures, Rubicon Models
Renault R40 : Warlord games,
Guns avaibility
Anti-tank guns :
25mm SA34 : Crusader Miniatures, Neucraft Models OOP, Warlord Games
47mm SA37 : Mad Bob Miniatures , neucraft models OOP, Warlord Games
75mm Mle1897/33 :
75mm L/53 TAZ Mle1939
37mm Mle1916 : Scarab Miniature, Old Glory, ( but you have to change the crew , this gun was still in use in 1940 ), Pulp Figures have one on naval mount too
Anti Aircraft guns :
20mm Mle1939 Oerlikon
25mm Mle1938 Hotchkiss :
40mm Bofors Mle1938/1939 : Warlord Games
Autocanon de 75mm Mle1913/34
75mm CA of various types
Mountain artillery :
65mm Mle 1906 : Brigade games
75mm Mle 1928 : Perry minis with a senegalese crew .
105mm Mle 1928
field artillery :
75mm Mle1897 : Brigade games, Scarab Miniatures (http://scarabminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5_19&sort=20a&page=2), Old Glory, Empress miniatures . You will have to exchange the crew .
75mm Mle1897 mod 1938 1940 : Warlord Games, Battle Honours, Perry Miniatures ( it's the gun with tyres )
105mm C :
105mm L :Mad Bob Miniatures, Warlord Games
155mm C :Mad Bob Miniatures
feel free to complete :D
- Meharistes ( camel mounted native infantry ) are no more avaible from Unfeasibly Miniatures
They have released 2 foot packs and a command pack .
missing :
- some french interwar civilian 1/56 cars to use as staff cars, or scout vehicles
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/peufeo10.png)
such as this Peugeot 202 with a FM 24/29 on AA mount
- some french interwar civilian 1/56 camionnettes ( vans ) and small trucks ( 1,5tons to 2,5 tons ones ).
this kind of "camionette" :
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/dkj510.jpg)
and small truck :
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/renaul10.jpg)
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A couple of online resources
French MOD Historical Section http://www.ecpad.fr/ A lot of photo references, even if you don't speak French.
French tanks, right from the early years. No excuse for not getting the paint schemes right! http://www.chars-francais.net/new/
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Some nice colour plates here:
http://collmili95.skyrock.com/15.html
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Plates in the blog are from Bucquoy's "Les Uniformes de l'Armee Francaise, Ter Merre Air" a masterful work on the French military
uniforms and a must have for French enthusiasts.
For French vehicles the best work is Francois Vauvillier's, "L'Automobile Sous L'Uniforme 1939-1940". Tough to find as it has been
OP for quite some time.
Russ
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i agree , "l'automobile sous l'uniforme" is THE book !
@FramFramson :
be carefull, most of the plates on http://collmili95.skyrock.com/15.html are from a book published in 1935, so were uniforms worn in the early 30's ...
1915 "bleu horizon" uniforms were not worn at all after 1935 !
big Update on the vehicles . ;)
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added sources for vehicles, tanks and camo in the second post ;)
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wow, great additions, THX
and also for reminding me to edit my online sources into the fourth post
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added some trucks ( existing french and italian and american imported )
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updated with some pictures, some kind of personnal most wanted miniatures ;D
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You are doing a grand job of this guys. :)
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some editing will be needed eventually....
Another vehicle: Chevrolet AMD, used in small numbers by the french army, made by Empress in the SCW range
and a question: who makes the crispest soixante-quinze?
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you're right and wrong :D
there are some chevrolet 1,5 tons used by the french army, but it's not empress but minairons who produce a 1/56 one :D
for the 75mm i don't know ...
the warlord one seem's oversized and with wrong wheels design
i have not seen the battle honors one
the perry's one seem's correct for the late models
and a lot of 1914/1918 are on the market
i'll try to add artillery to my post .
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added Chevrolet TA 1,5 tons truck and Chevrolet M37 armoured car .
ex spanish republican Chevrolet M37 armoured cars were used in the last stages of the "bataille de France" in June 1940 .
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guns added, but i need some help if i have forgotten a manufacturer
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I am not sure if the belgian 47 AT gun can be used?
Old Glory and scarab both make the 37mm Puteaux trench gun
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the belgian one was an Herstal production, strictly belgian , not the french 47mm produced by Puteaux Arsenal ;
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well, after the Eritrea campaign I can have anything Italian ;)
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after Koufra too
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/captur11.jpg)
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any source about what vehicles L-patrol used?
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from different sources for Koufra :
2Laffly S15R
2Laffly S15TOE armoured cars
a certain number ( 5 to 10 ) of Chevrolet and ford ( the kind used by LRDG )
25 Bedford 0;5 ton
2 Laffly trucks ( carrying the 75 portee, laffly S15T AOF ( AOF for saharian use ) from what i have found )
29 Matford ( Ford trucks build under license in france ) 3 tons
and an Austin car and a Matford car .
The other Laffly S20 & Laffly S15T issued to the french army in 1939 were not useable in the desert ...
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here is an interesting video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtDXWliXlb0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtDXWliXlb0)
at 13:25 ... give a look ;)
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I am currently rebooting my knowledge of the period, to see what I could have missed, now that my perspective has changed
the main reason my own project is stalled is the fact that I wanted to do vehicle units and realised I did not know enough about the topic.
So I am researching the transfer of the train d'equippage to motorization....
luckily, the motor transport division relied heavily on requisitioning during wartime...
unfortunately, there is nothing to be had, so I drafted every single sitting figure I could get - 5 men from three manufacturers....
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(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/amdodg10.jpg)
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... and realised I did not know enough about the topic.
You are not alone, this thread has really opened my eyes. I felt that I knew a little about the French Army in the Pre-War and Early War period. Now I know I knew nothing.
;)
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the early war french army is unknown even from a lot of french wargamer ;)
it's quite difficult as there are many sources, in french, and mostly paper sources .
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I cannot help but claim it a bit on the dominance of the anglosaxon language and culture in the world of visual media. How else could, for example, such an excellent movie like "Capitaine Conan" have gone almost unnoticed...
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I agree, the anglo-centric nature of wargaming and media is not a good thing. There is a tendency to be lazy and stick to sources in English, which often either disregard 'other nations' in the main, or make things up/mistranslate them when faced with another language.
For me the Spanish Civil War is a case in point. All the information is there, in Spanish, yet most English sources on the topic have perpetuated myths previously created by others unwilling to make the effort to research properly. As a result we have things like the Osprey book saying 'they used the usual three squad organisation' (or something like that), when at that time three squads was unusual in most armies.
Language is always a gap, but thankfully it is being bridged. :)
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unfortunately, I will never be able to understand as many languages as I wish I would.
But we are lucky here to have french fellow forumites who can help us plug the gap :D
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It's just that a lot of peoples , in the wargame area, are more "authors" ( that's to say egocentric peoples ... ) and not historians ( science peoples knowing that they know only a few things ) .
( and searching in the archives of the armie is not easy ) .
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'Historian' and 'egocentric' are not mutually exclusive. lol
Of course research is not easy and indeed when you are not searching in your own language, you are more likely to miss things... but making things up with no evidence to support your idea and not mentioning "I am not sure, but I think..." is inexcusable.
I am in the same position as former user, I will never speak all the languages I need to learn for my interests, so having members from those countries step forwards to do the heavy-lifting on these topics is always pleasing.
:)
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i've found this picture yesterday :
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/11/63/95/43/326_0010.jpg)
compagnie mehariste ( part of the leclerc forces , early 1941 fezzan ) with a 37mm gun
the only one i have found is the scarab one .
added to the list as it seem's that some colonial infantry units were issued old 37mm modele 1916 as anti-tank guns :o
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so the problem is with the crew :?
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37mm mle1916 were only issued to AOF AEF tirailleurs regiments in overseas service .
in france, some were issued to 2nd line reserve regiments .
during the Free French period, only the Leclerc Meharist companies were issued 37mm Mle 1916 ( it was carried on pack camels in normal use ) . There were a lot of italian captured AT Guns avaible to Leclerc forces , which were better !
So the metropolitan crew , it's what if ...
(http://www.mitrailleuse.fr/Historique/Hotchkiss/37Vauquois.jpg)
(http://images.mesdiscussions.net/pages14-18/mesimages/3512/Canon-revolver-de-tranchee-.gif)
(http://images.mesdiscussions.net/pages14-18/mesimages/1701/2012-02-10_163719.jpg)
;)
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oh, my 37mm puteaux is for Great War and early interwar anyway. It is very useful to know I could use them with native troops with Leclerc in Koufra, THX for that.
And also for the other pictures, but I meant a different revolver gun. I don't even know what that is in the pictures.
I meant this one:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/MHE9.jpg/781px-MHE9.jpg)
(http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Hotchkiss/Resources/hotchkissfrenchs.jpeg)
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this one ?
(http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/ISE9CA/06-516307.jpg)
used in the forts from late XIXth to 1918 , may be more
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seems like the breech is missing there, but yes, probably this one.
it was also used by many navies, British, Russian, German and also French - the germans used it on a field mount, on the western front and in east africa as well, in WW1...
here in french
http://www.fortiffsere.fr/artillerie/index_fichiers/Page854.htm
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there is also this thing that is hard to come by in terms of sources
(http://oberkampf.muddeln.free.fr/images/Artillery/Light%20Artillery/120mmpuissant.jpg)
(http://oberkampf.muddeln.free.fr/images/Artillery/Light%20Artillery/brandt120mm.jpg)
mortier de 120mm Brandt
was it a regimental support weapon?
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it was not put in service before the blitzkrieg .
2 120mm mortars were planned for each regiment ... but not before 1942 ...
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damn....
they could have captured some from the germans though ;)
seriously, what did they have instead as regimental support? 75e for everything?
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regimental support :
"compagnie régimentaire d'engins" :
2 x 81mm mortars
2 x 3 25mm AT gun
( sometimes 2x 20 mm CA Mle 39 Oerlikon )
+ in each of the 2 bataillons :
"compagnie d'accompagnement"
8 x 2 Hotchkiss MG
2 x 81mm mortars
2 x 25mm AT gun
+ in each company ( 3 companies in a bataillon )
1 x 60mm mortar
in second line reserve regiment, 37mm Mle 16 TR were issued , instead of 25mm AT gun .
more support was at the division ( 3 infantry regiments )
there you have :
AT company : 12 x 25 mm AT guns
AT Battery : 8 x 47 mm AT guns
Artillery Regiment : 9 x 75mm guns
Heavy Artillery Regiment : 6 x 155mm guns
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THX
You need to specify the period though
surprising that the biggest tube at regimental level would be 81mm...
155mm at divisional level is rather basic then.
Which one? or all?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/155_GPF.jpg/1920px-155_GPF.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Howitzer_155_mm_mle_1917_Saumur_img_2310.jpg/1024px-Howitzer_155_mm_mle_1917_Saumur_img_2310.jpg)
(http://www.landships.info/landships/artillery_articles/images/155mm_St_Chamond_1.jpg)
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short one 155C 17
in some regiments, 12 x 105mm C and 12 x 155mm C
Division organisation from the 30's
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THX
(http://www.landships.info/landships/artillery_articles/images/Canon_155_C17s_2.jpg)
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former user - you first photo is of the 155mm GPF gun, used for long range artillery in WWI and WWII (a Corps level asset IIRC) & the precursor to the US Army's WWII era 'Long Tom'. The US used the GPF in WWI too.
The second and third look to both be the Schneider 155mm C17S howitzer as in your drawing, the first of them is modernised for motorised towing, the second isn't & that looks to be a WWI era photograph!.
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THX - the last one is a St. Chamond 155
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Different manufacturer, same role! :)
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of course - I wonder whether the ammo matched both tubes
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I would imagine not. Except for the present day, it's quite rare for artillery and similar weapons to use the same shell, or should I say the same shell case at least. Some weapons can handle more charge than others, while slight differences in how each weapon 'fires' means different designs are needed. They are like rifles, you would not expect to fire a standard 7.92mm Mauser round from a Sturmgewehr 44, despite both being 7.92mm.
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yes and no ;)
While I would fully agree when it comes to WW1, the standardization to the 7.5mm rifle ammo in the 30ies means that the french army at least attempted this concept. I would be not surprised if artillery shells separate from the charge having the same calibre could be fired from different tubes, with different charges acounting for the different performance
but anyway, this is as far the details are important for wargaming, at least to me ;)
given my previous experiences with army bulding, more than one gun of this calibre on the 28mm tabletop would be rather insane.
At the moment, I can not even imagine what to use to represent it.
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One of the advantages of 15mm is that I've got a battery each of GPF and the C17S! ;)
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of course, it is very tempting, but it also depends on what you want to game, tactically
what puzzles me more is that I have even seen small 5cm mortars and none in 28mm....
and the VB for WW2, which is.... outdated?
miniature wargaming is sometimes a strange realm
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@ etranger :
in 1939-1940, a lot of the french artillery was still horse drawn ( even the 25mm AT gun ), so the 75 , 105 and 155 mm guns can be found with tyres for the "RATT" ( motorized artillery regiment ) and wooden wheels for the other regiments .
the rule was :
motorized artillery regiments for the motorized infantry division ...
but some infantry division had motorized artillery regiments.
Nothing is easy ;)
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I'm sure I've seen photos of 'motorised units' in transition, where they have loaded the wooden-wheeled gun onto the truck portee-style, presumably until such time as new carriages were available.
what puzzles me more is that I have even seen small 5cm mortars and none in 28mm....
and the VB for WW2, which is.... outdated?
The French planned to replace the VB with a new light mortar, pretty much after Spanish practice (which was unusual as it was usually the other way around), but as far as I know this had not been begun by 1940, so the VB soldiered on.
There was the Lafitte Mle.25 60mm mortar, which was technically a 'medium mortar', but I have no idea if any units had this. I imagine that they all had the Brandt Mle.27/31 81mm.
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here:
http://deuxiemeguerremondia.forumactif.com/t3831-armement-et-organisation-de-l-infanterie-francaise-en-1940
is the source -
it appears the VB was to be replaced with another rifled fired GL, and a small half group of 4 attached to the section command would have one 5 cm mortar.
one 6 cm mortar (later 2) was a company asset apparently
my source claims this organisation was installed in 1940, however there is a suspicious lack of period photos - maybe they were in the middle of and then abandoned it
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this organisation was planned to be in service from august 1940 ... and in august 1940 ... ehhhhmmmm :'(
the main goal was to have a grenade launcher able to be used with the new AT grenade ... it was just a bit late ...
Arlequin :
the goal was to tow all the artillery ... some regiments were issued trucks but keept their old gun carriage, so had to use the "train rouleur" or to load on trucks ...
but this was mostly used between the early 30's and 1939 .
in 1939, all the motorized artillery regiments were issued with 75 mod 38 with tyres .
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this organisation was planned to be in service from august 1940 ... and in august 1940 ... ehhhhmmmm :'(
OK, so VB in use, no 50mm, no 60mm?
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1x 60mm mortar in each company command group
the 50mm Mle 1937 grenade launcher ( and not mortar because of the shorter range ) :
less than 3000 where produced by june 1940 , but quite no grenades , so it saw action as 5cm Granatenwerfer 203(f) in other hands ...
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that's interesting
AT guns and infantry guns were used at batallion support level then?
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only AT 25mm guns , at bataillon level and at regiment level
no other artillery type
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@ etranger :
in 1939-1940, a lot of the french artillery was still horse drawn ( even the 25mm AT gun ), so the 75 , 105 and 155 mm guns can be found with tyres for the "RATT" ( motorized artillery regiment ) and wooden wheels for the other regiments .
the rule was :
motorized artillery regiments for the motorized infantry division ...
but some infantry division had motorized artillery regiments.
Nothing is easy ;)
And Lord only knows what the horsed cavalry (Spahi etc) brigades were using with their artillery support!
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I'm sure I've seen photos of 'motorised units' in transition, where they have loaded the wooden-wheeled gun onto the truck portee-style, presumably until such time as new carriages were available....
Also sometimes done even with 'modernised guns' (usually, but not always the 25mm ATG) which were allegedly too weakly constructed for high speed towing.
A nice selection of French kit in these newsreels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wk0XPSph4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXFAQPbOTkY
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only AT 25mm guns , at bataillon level and at regiment level
no other artillery type
well, I read they continued to use th 65mm M as an infantry gun after it got replaced
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Another newsreel showing the wide variety of French equipment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGSaYeNd6Y
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And Lord only knows what the horsed cavalry (Spahi etc) brigades were using with their artillery support!
the cavalry units used horse drawn 25 mm guns 8)
but at the division level, it was motorized artillery ,
the light cavalry division was :
- 1 cavalry brigade of 2 cavalry regiments
- 1 light motorized brigade of 1 armoured cars regiment and 1 motorized infantry
so the whole division level artillery was motorized
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well, I read they continued to use th 65mm M as an infantry gun after it got replaced
a small number of the 65mm mountain gun were in service in the second line reserve regiments of the alpines divisions .
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I read this:
"The French Army kept the Mle 1906 on strength as an infantry gun in the French colonies and although replaced as a mountain gun by the 75mm Mle 1919 Schneider it remained in service until WW2.", so I guess something like batallion level support
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65mm guns were in service in french indochina
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/15/32/77/46/dk5j-t11.jpg)
4th Colonial Artillery Regiment , around Saigon, between 1939 and 1941 ...
2 batteries of 65mm M were in service in indochina
may be some in madagascar ... and that's quite all .
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wow! probably won't game the french-thai war, but good to know
and many more in other countries, including gemany....
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added the citroen traction , a die cast model 1/55 who is a cheap one ... you can find it it most toys shops
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I am totally unable to identify this vehicle
it is a still from a clip that identifies it with a campaign in Tafilalet in 1933
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Looks like this chap 1928 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE SAURER-CAT on Chars -Francais, confusingly in the 1902-1915 section.... http://www.chars-francais.net/new/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=685&Itemid=36
From the French caption, Used in Morocco, this armored car is perhaps improvised on a Saurer truck chassis .
20 copies were made to escort convoys to the W.C.C. (Compagnie Africaine de Transport).
Armament: 1 machine gun 8mm
More here if your Russian is any good! http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored_cars/france/saurer_cat.htm
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THX a lot
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coming soon from Warlord :
(http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Senegalese-cover-art-sm-600x657.jpg)
and more ? :
These soon-to-be-released colonial infantry figures are just a selection of the new reinforcements the French are going to receive over the coming weeks…
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I admit being surprised that they actually look like quite a decent set of figures, all things considered: http://www.warlordgames.com/showcase-senegalese-tirailleurs/
Who knows, some Dragons-portes might also be in the works? :)
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I admit being surprised that they actually look like quite a decent set of figures, all things considered: http://www.warlordgames.com/showcase-senegalese-tirailleurs/
Who knows, some Dragons-portes might also be in the works? :)
Lovely Warlords are for the upcoming release, but when you look at the fragile rifles I feel the pain already.
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vehicles list updated with the realese, next week of the Laffly 50 by Mad Bob miniatures .
the senegaleses are in the pipeline ... from Warlord
an other realese too :
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/13/24/33/11/noveda10.jpg)
still this stupid Boys ATR ( only used by a few recce units ), a 50mm mortar never issued due to the lack of ammo and still evrybody with full kit , even the sniper >:(
i hope we will have some Bataillon de Marche senegalese troopers before summer from the Perry twins ...
i'm planning to use some Askari Miniatures Legion cavalry with empress miniatures SCW morrocan heads ... to create some morrocan spahis for erytrea-syria ...
only a minor difference in the design of the saddle , it seem's ...
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You know there's no shortage of anything in Bolt Action World. ;)
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there is some shortage of historical knowledge ...
as i said on a french forum , they need to start an indiegogo campaign to offer some books to the authors and sculptors ... ;)
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Indeed... I remember the comment in the 'France and the Allies' supplement that all Renault FT tanks had been converted to machine gun armament by WWII.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LfStXp7OZio/Uy2ySzN6bzI/AAAAAAAARqU/z8qcEkafFiU/s1600/Tank_FT-17_1940.jpg)
However in all fairness, if I had a Franc for each time I thought I had researched something correctly and then someone comes along and shows me I'm wrong, I could afford to employ a research team.
;)
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i know, the french army is not an easy subject, but there are some easy sources ( in english for some )
the most difficult is the early free french erea
ther is a lack of "official" informations, pictures, i'm trying to work on the subject, and have a lot of troubles ...
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I have made some Moroccans Spahis using Askari miniatures interwar Legion Cavalry and some Empress SCW Moroccan heads .
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/11/63/95/43/dscn1614.jpg)
it's quite correct
Thanks for editing the 1st post, Arlequin ;)
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That really seems to have worked out well. I'm no expert, but they look like I would expect them to. I take it they would have a European officer?
:)
As for the editing, I said I would at some point. I have cut back some 'old growth' in the thread itself too. If you have any further improvements, by all means send me a PM.
:)
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well the cartridge belts are not the right ones , it was saharian crossed belts who were used ;)
but if i look at this
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/11/63/95/43/spahi011.jpg)
at platoon level, there is no officer only a NCO , native or european ...
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Overall though they give the right effect though. Do you have a date for the photo? They appear to have U.S. M1 Carbines, so I am guessing 1943 at the earliest.
What an unusual way to carry the carbine... it is certainly not a useful way to do so.
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no, they are carrying french Mousqueton de Cavalerie Modéle 1916
(http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/Mousq%20d%27art%20Mle%201916-WEB.jpg)
( even if the spahi in the center of the picture seem's to carry some civilian shotgun ? ???
the picture is of 1st squadroon , 1st Moroccan Spahis, some days after they left Vichy Syria to join the British in Palestine the 2 of July 1940 . They fought in Erytrea, Syria,latter this unit became motorized infantry and Armoured cars ( using captured Vichy french dodge Tanake and latter Marmon Herrington Mk3 modified ).
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I think in the photo they wear M1 carbines too. You can see the bayonet fixation under the barrel
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the M1 was first issued in 1943 .
In 1943, the 1st Moroccan spahis regiment was a full armored cars regiment ( some platoons retaining some ( a combat group of 12 ) moroccan soldiers acting as motorized infantry ) .
but it's possible that some were issued MAS 36 .
(http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20MAS%2036%201%B0%20type-VD-WEB.JPG)
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Someone is wrong somewhere then. That is definitely the M1 - as Koinsky says you can see the bayonet lug. All the visible barrels project much further than on either of the French weapons and the sling passes through the butts that can be seen. The smooth curve of the grip on the centre figure is also the same as the M1.
It may of course be the right unit, but the time of the photograph is certainly not 1940. I wonder if this is some form of special 'final mounted' parade to mark the changeover from horse to motor, or something like that? Such things happened in the British Army, pre-war at least.
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Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ... :?
this is a late war picture , 1945 . bad label :-[
It's a victory parade ... so it's a M1
Here are 1941 spahis :
(http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/images/photos/rmsn_beyrouth.jpg)
(http://www.groupemarat.com/NOSLIBERATEURS/CHAP2_LaGuerredansleDesert/imagesG/mod.jpg)
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Do you have any details on their organisation? I gather from Wikipedia that an 'Escadron' was 172 men and a 'Peloton' looks like it was 18 men (or 13 in the first photo).
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it's simple
the base is the "groupe de combat" NCO in command :
half group of 6 spahis with a Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine-gun ( the LMG was carried on a horse and not by the gunner )
half group of 6 spahis with a VB
the Platoon : Officer in Command : 2 groupes de combat , a platoon HQ of 4 ( including a VB ) and a half group of 6 spahis with a Chatellerault FM 24/29
Escadron : Senior officer in command : Command Platoon of 26 ( services , Senior NCO in command) + 3 Platoons
138 Officers, NCO's and troopers
There were more spahis who joined the british .
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Thank you! :)
Any more that you have would add value to this thread I think.
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ok so :
Infantry :
Groupe de Combat : NCO in command , 2 half groups : 5 troopers with one FM24-29 LMG , 6 troopers with one VB
Section : Junior Officer ( or senior NCO ) in command , HQ group of 4 ( including one VB and 1 NCO ) + 3 Groupes de Combat
Company : Officer in command , HQ section of 18 , 60mm Mortar ( with 6 crew ) + 4 sections
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Meharists released by Unfeasibly Miniatures ...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11024693_433343890159963_7057659962498609169_n.jpg?oh=775851a7e7c1766dc3cdeb3fe7b2e349&oe=55F70988)
the only problem will be the rifle ...
those were used by the meharists :
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5857/dsc03611v.jpg)
the rifle modeled seem's to be the "mousqueton Lebel 1886-93 R35" ...
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Well their range is for the 'Beau Geste' era, so it makes sense that they should have the Lebel. It's a small detail though I think. :)
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for sure, i have not been able to found the year the berthiers were issued to meharists ... ;)
It's great to have meharists and even if they produce a maxim MG with meharist crew, i have some spare hotchkiss so ...
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coming soon from perry miniatures :
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/plates/photo-5.JPG)
Apart from the German Paras on Michael's workbench there are also these manikins for Vichy French and Senegalese tirialleurs. Each will be adapted (e.g. attaching collars for the European infantry, etc) for each particular infantry type. Still not sure whether the Senegalese were issued with machetes in the middle east, any advise would be greatly received! The Afrikakorps are there just to model the Adrian helmets. These will be 28mm metal figures that could be used in Syria and Madagascar.
they wil be suitable for any 1930's colonial troops ( excluding north africa ! )
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there is some shortage of historical knowledge ...
as i said on a french forum , they need to start an indiegogo campaign to offer some books to the authors and sculptors ... ;)
Hell, I think I even offered them my services some years ago as an historian in gratis (as I do for any manufacturer) as I actually lecture on the subject of the French Army of 1940, and yet they still prefer roll out clangers like the Boys ATR... <sigh> at least the Perrys appear to be paying attention to the actual historical equipment, etc. of the subjects they're working on... 8)
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that's the problem with BA,
with the Perry's, they are ready to listen to peoples ... we have discussed about the senegaleses, putees or not putees, machete or not machete ...
it's easier, as they have some historical knowledge ... ( even if they missed a boys ATR for the FFL ;) )
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small update
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update on the vehicle list, due to the release by Mad Bob of some french stuff
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Thanks for the update Lou.
All the best,
Helen
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added avaibility of spare MMG , for all those who want to add one or 2 to your vehicles ;)
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Thank you for keeping this a 'live' resource Lou.
... and bonne année :)
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Hi guys
All you French experts out there, were either of these Renault PE tractors used by the French in 1940? And if so, in what role?