Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Melnibonean on January 01, 2015, 12:00:45 PM
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Greetings Folks,
I'm being more and more lured in the direction of ancients but I don't know where to start.
Rules: I have no idea although I know I don't like DBA (played it a few times in the past). I've thought of Hail Caesar but I really have no idea.
Scale: I'm open to either 15mm or 28mm.
Starting army: Well I like Classical Greeks (my wife is Greek but I just like the look of Hoplites). I also like Republican Rome as I have a fair bit of knowledge of Roman history.
So what advice and wisdom can you offer a would be ancients beginner?
Where do I start.
P.S. Auto-correct wants me to change hoplites to shoplifters
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I'm sure soon you'll get lots of posts by gamers recommending their rules of choice. However, before a recommendation can be meaningful for you you really need to give a bit of consideration as to what type of game you want. Otherwise all you're going to get is a list of peoples favourite games.
The main decisions you need to make are :
Skirmish or big battle.
Individual basing or unit / element basing (although you can combine both using sabot bases or movement trays).
Rules covering a wide period (allowing you to learn one set of generic rules to cover all of your ancient / medieval gaming) or period specific rules.
Then there are further considerations as to the type of game you prefer, for example IGOUGO where you can move everything on your turn, or a game with a more interactive turn sequence and command and control restrictions (representing battlefield friction).
If you can narrow your requirements down you can receive more meaningful and useful suggestions. Then you can get a shortlist of rules that might interest you, then take a look at some reviews and battle reports.
If you want a unit based game with command and control restrictions and an interactive turn sequence then you may want to take a look at my Sword & Spear rules. You can see a summary of reviews of these rules on my website:
http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/sword-spear-reviews/
There are lots of battle reports on my forum, so you can get an idea of what it looks like and how it plays:
http://polkovnikproductions.freeforums.org/battle-reports-f9.html
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Skirmish or big battle.
Individual basing or unit / element basing (although you can combine both using sabot bases or movement trays).
Ah... Big Battles.
Preferably element basing. I'd prefer no individual casualty removal although it isn't essential.
I play Napoleonics, Pike & Shotte & ACW so basing units/regiments/battalions is something I'm use to.
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Having done a lot of ancients in 28mm. I recommend 15mm.
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I would recommend Hail Ceasar but it does favour large battles. As to scale; cost is a factor and the increasing array of plastic in 28mm has a lot going for it. Victrix do a nice set of Republican Romans and Hoplites so you are spoilt for choice. Given they match very nicely with the Agema Romans and the Warlord figures you could do worse. And plastic ancients are increasing in ranges with Macedonians and Celts available now and Carthaginians, Spanish and Numidians promised for in 2015.
Whatever you choose, I wish you the best and good gaming.
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If its big battles the i would think of looking at 15mm or even 10mm ..
They are a fraction of the cost of 28mm stuff they are a lot quicker to paint up and when you have 15mm stuff in units of say 24 +figs they look the part and when you get 8-12 units on the table it looks and feels like a battle .. and if you game at home then the size of your table is to be taken into account ..
Fields of Glory is a nice set of rules .. and works well in 15mm/10mm and even 28mm .
As for armies thats a hard one :? just go with what you have always liked your armies can always grow i now find that i have over 22 armies 7 of them ancients :D
Happy gaming and good luck with the project ..
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If you like DBA go with Big Battle DBA, played with 3 DBA armies.
Play it in 15mm, Museum miniatures have a sale on in January.
Hoplites and Republican Romans are both a bit limited tactically, both being mostly heavy infantry, line 'em up and walk forward or line 'em up and stand still, while trying to protect your exposed flanks. Try Seleucids, still in the classical period but they can use just about every troop type.
I have tried lots of different ancient rules and I've settled on DBMM, not to every ones taste but they are a very good set of rules, if you use "historical tactics" you get a plausible result. There is a rumour that there's a hardback DBMM book coming out soon containing the rules and the lists.
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I think that Forged in Battle have a new ancients set in development to go with their 15mm Classical era ancients kickstarter. Might be worth waiting to give it a look, the miniatures look great!
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I am a gluten for punishment and am going the victrix 28 mm and thinking of going old glory 15mm.
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War and Conquest, I am a convert and I like big battles, there is figure removal though, but it is not a big deal, Scarab also do Greek army plastic boxes I think, check them out.
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If you want element based with big battles I'd recommend DBA, DBMM, Field of Glory, Armati or Sword & Spear.
All excellent rules. I play all of those with 28mm figures multi-based on 60mm wide bases.
DBA is obviously easiest from the point of view of painting stuff up; the other all need more figures, although actually you can play Sword & Spear (or indeed Armati) with a single base per unit as there is neither formation change nor base removal in those rules.
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Unless I am missing something, wouldn't Impetus also be a suitable option?
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I am a huge fan of the Command & Colors (http://Command & Colors http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/14105/commands-colors-ancients) board game that in my opinion simulates ancient warfare very well.
It has been used very successfully by wargamers with miniatures replacing the wooden block pieces.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Yh84CnmFNyE/T4CAZGnAdnI/AAAAAAAAD7g/I6w2hCtvzhg/s1600/Plat%2BBD%2B02.jpg)
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You said you don't like DBA...makes sense. Its a weird game with lawyer written rules (although I sometimes enjoy it).
I would say either Impetus or Hail Caesar looking at your requests...
-Big Battles
-Element/Unit basing
-No single figure removal
-NOT DBA
I'm a huge fan of hoplites and ancient Greece and started my historical wargaming there...I would say however not to do the same. It is a limited period, and even with a great love of hoplites I've found myself only rarely playing the games.
Do Republican Rome - Interesting armies, tons of allies, a good enemy in Carthage, and you can also fight Gauls, Spanish, Macedonian, Numidians etc...
Also - 28mm is my preference but this is entirely up to you. I just love the look of massed armies in that scale and the figures are gorgeous and plentiful. Every 15mm project I start for budget or space has me lusting after the 28mm version of it before I've finished and wishing I had just done it that way.
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Thanks for all the advice guys.
I've jumped the gun and I have a box of 28mm Victrix Hoplites on the way because I want to do this in order to have big battles with lots of pretty looking troops. It's a long range project and I enjoy painting so I don't mind the brush time involved (I also paint pretty fast).
But I'm still not sure what rules to go for. Hail Caesar - Impetus - Clash of Empires all seem popular. What is the difference between them?
Classical Hack seems to get a bit of a mention.
I'm a huge fan of hoplites and ancient Greece and started my historical wargaming there...I would say however not to do the same. It is a limited period, and even with a great love of hoplites I've found myself only rarely playing the games.
Do Republican Rome - Interesting armies, tons of allies, a good enemy in Carthage, and you can also fight Gauls, Spanish, Macedonian, Numidians etc...
Rome later (and Celts). I just want to do Greeks first. ;)
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Clash of Empires is basically a rewritten (and, according to some) improved version of Warhammer Ancient Battles, so you probably don't want that. By the sound of it you should either go for Hail Caesar or Impetus. I have never played the latter.
Hail Caesar is good because it hasn't got tons of stupid little rules that slow gameplay. However, you might want to hear from some Impetus players because it seems to be increasingly popular. You do need BIG armies to get the best out of Hail Caesar (multiplayer is best too in my opinion.)
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Welcome to Ancients wargaming, Melnibonean! I will second what Andy said about Hail Caesar. In addition, the rules were designed for light-hearted, 'gentlemanly' games amongst friends, and IMHO play best if some time and effort have been spent in preparing the battle scenario and forces beforehand.
Here are links to some detailed online wargamer reviews of Hail Caesar, which ought to provide enough information to help you decide if it might be your 'cup of tea':
http://campcromwell.blogspot.com/2011/05/hail-caesar-review.html (http://campcromwell.blogspot.com/2011/05/hail-caesar-review.html)
http://rabbitsinmybasement.blogspot.com/2011/06/hail-caesar-first-look.html (http://rabbitsinmybasement.blogspot.com/2011/06/hail-caesar-first-look.html)
http://toomuchlead.blogspot.com/2011/09/hail-caesar-full-review.html (http://toomuchlead.blogspot.com/2011/09/hail-caesar-full-review.html)
Best of luck with your Ancients rules quest. Whichever one you ultimately choose, I hope you have a great time playing!
Cheers,
Scott
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I've jumped the gun and I have a box of 28mm Victrix Hoplites on the way because I want to do this in order to have big battles with lots of pretty looking troops.
Proper wargaming that..."Thank you for the advice I've run out and bought the prettiest toys anyways"
Enjoy, Hoplites make great looking armies and there is a lot of nuance you can get from scenarios and specific battles (surprise attacks, city fighting etc...) to make them fun (other than just lining them up and going)
Silly question, what rules do you enjoy for the other periods you game? And do you want similar mechanics and speed/depth or are you looking for something completely different? The good news is you can buy a couple rule books and give them a read while you're spending the much longer investment in time painting the armies.
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Proper wargaming that..."Thank you for the advice I've run out and bought the prettiest toys anyways"
Well I am only human after all. :?
Anyhow, I've decided that whilst I'm working out what rules to use I can paint up some figures and mount them - 4 figures on 40x40mm bases as this seems to be a pretty consistent basing regimen these days (or maybe 6 on 60x40mm).
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Victrix is a good choice - they have a very good range of hoplites and lighter troops. Compatible in size with many metals as well. 4x4 on 40mm allows flexibility between say Hail Caesar and Impetus. We use Hail Caesar here in sunny Canberra and am looking forward to CANCON 2015 at the end of the month - which will hopefully include both Impetus and Sword & Spear in 28mm.
My hoplites are growing in number and originally were just meant to be a small mercenary force for my later Achaemenids. Typical wargamer, things just grew. Also like the options for a Syracusan army - good quality mercenaries, levy hoplite (citizens) as well as lighter mercenaries like Gauls and Spanish. Added attraction is the novelty of some 'belly' bowmen (light artillery).
Good luck
Garry
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For Impetus (free basic version) I use 80mm wide bases instead of 120mm. Small armies can be completed very quickly. For full impetus I can use 120mm by adding extra 40mm bases to each element.
Heavy Foot - 8 figs 80x50 and 4 figs 40x50 (Hoplites, legionaries)
Light foot - 6/5 figs 80x50 and 3/2 figs 40x50 (less figures used for unformed warband types)
Skirmishers - 3/2 figs 80x40 and 1 fig 40x40
Heavy cavalry - 4 figs 80x60 and 2 figs 40x60 (Cataphracts, knights)
Medium Cavalry - 3 figs 80x60 and 2/1 figs 40x60
Light Cavalry - 2 figs 80x60 and 1 fig 40x60
I think this gives a good amount of flexibility to make smaller and larger unit for a lot of other rules sets out there.
Not a great picture but may help give you an idea - This is a full basic impetus army for Marian/Caesarian Romans (Still need to finish the bases on these).
(http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh540/Splinterbox/SAM_4050.jpg) (http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Splinterbox/media/SAM_4050.jpg.html)
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Well I am only human after all. :?
Hopefully no offense was taken, I really did mean that is proper wargaming. It is games of toy soldiers and in the end, all the internet blather in the world shouldn't dissuade you from collecting and painting the figures you want. You fancy doing hoplites and just couldn't help ordering some...sounds good and enjoy. We all know that feeling and many of my largest projects started with figures I just couldn't resist. Look forward to seeing pictures.
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Hopefully no offense was taken, I really did mean that is proper wargaming. It is games of toy soldiers and in the end, all the internet blather in the world shouldn't dissuade you from collecting and painting the figures you want. You fancy doing hoplites and just couldn't help ordering some...sounds good and enjoy. We all know that feeling and many of my largest projects started with figures I just couldn't resist. Look forward to seeing pictures.
No offence taken at all. You're right in thinking: I wanted some hoplites so I bought some hoplites. Normal, healthy wargamer logic!
After a chat today I came to the same conclusion that drives all of my wargaming: I want to play with what I like visually. For me it is 70% how my troops look compared to 30% how they perform. When it comes down to it I just like making and playing with good looking toy soldiers.
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In the same way that all journeys start with the first step, then most wargames armies start with an (often rash) impulse purchase. At least mine have. ;-) The Victrix hoplites are very nice.
As well as the other suggestions mentioned about, can I commend my own, new "To the Strongest!" rules which are basing independent, easy to learn and can cope with as few or as many minis as you can get painted! There's more about them here (scroll down the thread : http://bigredbat.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/TotheStrongest%21 (http://bigredbat.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/TotheStrongest%21)
Best, Simon
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One of the things I like best about Ancients gaming is the vast (and ever expanding) selction of rules available. Whatever your initial thoughts on rules are there is evey chance that you will want to try other systems before too long.
My advise is therefore to base to 'future proof' your armies. For instance although many people enjoy the modelling possibilities provided by the large Impetus style bases I actually use old WRG style basing (modern equivalent FOG/DBM) and then sabot's when playing Impetus. Some of my freinds base all their figures individually and the use commercially available larger bases predrilled to take them and so can swop between systems with ease.
Perhaps it is just me but I really hate rebasing
Welcome to the world of 28mm Ancients (don't forget Medieval and Renaissance as well).
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I would take a look at Sword and Spear, a very good set of rules and the armies are of a decent size to make a quick start.
I do also like Hail Caesar.
Figures wish, 15mm is definitely the way to go and West Wind Productions will be releasing their extensive and excellent range very soon. Keep an eye out for them. I have their Republican Romans as part of my kickstarter they are fantastic!!
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I would take a look at Sword and Spear, a very good set of rules and the armies are of a decent size to make a quick start.
I do also like Hail Caesar.
Figures wish, 15mm is definitely the way to go and West Wind Productions will be releasing their extensive and excellent range very soon. Keep an eye out for them. I have their Republican Romans as part of my kickstarter they are fantastic!!
I did purchase the pdf of Sword & Spear but I haven't really looked at them yet. However, as a starting point I might go with Hail Caesar. If they are anything like the other rules in the same stable they cater to the uninitiated. But then again, I should really give S&S a read first. :?
Don't worry - I'm just a confused soul.
And... The urge to buy new, shiny stuff (plastic 28's) got the better of me so I've committed myself to 28mm (I also found an associate with a spare box of Hail Caesar hoplites who wants to part with them at a very tasty price).