Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: The Red Graf on April 06, 2015, 03:44:02 AM
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Hi guys, the title says it all pretty much. I am an old Mordheimer, but am always looking for new games and I keep hearing about this one so I would like to know how it compares as a skirmish game and as a campaign game.
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Both are different but enjoyable games. I think the scope of songs is a bit wider as you can use a greater selection of your fantasy figures, not just GW type ones. The magic is much simpler in songs and seems to play a very second fiddle to other skills. The main difference i suppose is that in mordheim you get to move all your figures whereas in songs you might not so have to think about what are your important moves before trying higher risk activations. Hope that helps but feel free to ask more specific questions if you want.
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Very VERY different, SOB has very little in the way of stats and as posted above you likely will not get to do everything you want with your figures, particularly if you have bad dice rolls (like me) you could end up with models that do not activate through out the entire game (like me). Too much randomness and too few stats for my liking.
I wish someone independant who was a massive mordheim fan would do a review on all the campaign skirmish systems out there with pros and cons.
Brink of battle, Fanticide, DD: Warbands, etc. I would be very interested in that.
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I wish someone independant who was a massive mordheim fan would do a review on all the campaign skirmish systems out there with pros and cons.
I'd also be interested in such a review; I'm myself still looking for a skirmish battle system I really like .
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Thanks guys, I think that helps a lot. I would like to see that review as well.
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I've played SBH monthly for the last five years, and I'm familiar with Mordheim and GW, so hopefully I can offer some perspective.
SBH has no equipment lists, and it has just two stats per figure. Even once you add in a few special abilities for each figure ("Shooter" for an archer, maybe, or "Combat Master" for a barbarian) you still don't have a level of granularity approaching Mordheim. I don't find that to be a bad thing -- we can squeeze in several SBH games during our typical weeknight club sessions because everything moves along fairly smoothly.
You can use literally any figure in your collection for SBH, which is a huge attraction for me and my club. There are no force composition lists or compulsory selections or anything like that. Just a solid, robust character creation system that will get you up and running in no time flat. (Available online: http://www.ganeshagames.net/army_builders/SBHbuilderRevised-v1217.html). Or just use any of the dozens of premade character statlines to get gaming even faster.
The game features an activation system that can occasionally cause you turn to end prematurely. This is a feature of the game, not a drawback, as it can create some really awesome, unpredictable battlefield situations. Countless times I've had my back against a wall, outnumbered facing a horde of bad guys, and my opponent rolls poorly and ends his turn, giving me the opportunity I need to come back from the brink and win the scenario.
I'm told that Mordheim really shines in its campaign system. SBH has a nicely developed campaign system too, though we've found through trial and error that campaigns really ought to be capped at 6 or so sessions to avoid one warband advancing too quickly and becoming too formidable.
Everything else folks have mentioned is also spot-on. Let me know if I can answer any specific questions for you.
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I think it boils down to playstyle. SBH is a more 'light and fast' game, whereas Mordheim is much more in-depth, though I would say it is not that complicated. I have not played any SBH campaigns, but Mordheim campaigns tend to get unbalanced after a half-dozen games or so as well.
The biggest difference, IMO is the activation. Where in Mordheim, every model gets to act. In SBH, that is not always the case. Folks who are used to the Mordheim ruleset may find that a bit harder to get used to. Newer SBH rules have a new 'reaction' mechanic now, however, which means that if you fail any activation dice rolls, the enemy can get a reaction first.
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I've only played one game of Mordheim, and we did go through the campaign rules afterwards. Haven't had a chance to get back to it after that. Song of Blades I've played several one-off games using various rule sets (Mutants and Death Ray Guns, Fistful of Kung-Fu, Song of Blades core game and Flying Lead).
The two things I like about the SoBH rules is the simplicity and the speed. Yes it's not as crunchy as Mordheim in terms of stats but I think that's a strength. While I'm tempted to play a small campaign, it's far more likely that I'll get a few story-based scenarios played. The ability to create almost any scenario or character I want sells it for me. The rules are also cheap, so you can pick up the one or two that you want and just go to town.
I've written a review of the core book here http://obsidian3d.blogspot.ca/2012/10/song-of-blades-and-heroes-review.html.
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I find the simple 'how many activations do I try for' such a simple idea that leads to some great quandaries and situations
Songs is fast and uncomplicated but I've always found it fun and enjoyable,you done refer to the rules very often,good aspect in my opinion
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Hi there - first post (I've been lurking for a while, but this topic prompted me to sign up).
I very much agree with what Paleskin, obsidian3d and Patrick said on SBH. After a 20+year hiatus from gaming, my kids' growing interest in all things fantastical lured me back in. I painted up a batch of old and new miniatures for my son's birthday last year and got hold of the SBH rules. And we've been playing ever since. I've also played lots of games against adult opponents (friends I used to play with all those years ago), and those have been just as satisfying. I think it's a great system that makes the Warhammer family of rules look fairly clunky (I played a lot of Warhammer second and third edition, as well as WFRP, in my misspent youth). On top of that, I don't think the Warhammer games (including Mordheim) have the economy or nuances that SBH can offer. Certainly, the range of results per dice roll is much higher in SBH. I've got a lot of nostalgia for Warhammer-type stuff (and especially old Citadel miniatures of the Perry and Morrison era), but I don't think the rules hold up that well.
As Paleskin said, a great strength of SBH is that you don't generally need to consult the rules at all once you've played a few games. That makes things very fast. It's also really quick to put together a game. My son will often ask for a game; I'll ask him to suggest a scenario and then throw together two sides in a matter of minutes. If you're using the standard profiles from the rosters in the various books, you can usually just work out balanced warbands in your head (six lizardmen versus five goblin archers, eight goblin warriors and a goblin leader, for example, for roughly 300 puts a side).
Another strength of the game is that you don't need to go with the standardised approach. While a goblin warrior might be Q4, C2 with no special rules in the standard roster, you can individualise at will by adding special rules and changing the profile. If you're worried about points, the online warband builders take care of that.
Say, for example, that you wanted to make a warband out of Citadel's wonderful old chaos goblins: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Chaos_Goblins_-_C-27_(RAFM) (http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Chaos_Goblins_-_C-27_(RAFM)). You could add Dashing to the horned one to simulate a charging headbutt attack, and I'd add a point of combat, as he's better armed and armoured than most. The two-headed one might get Group Fighter. The one with the mace tail would get Tailslap and maybe a boost to Combat (he looks quite tough). Long-neck and Three-eye's mutations might be merely cosmetic, but you could add the Mutant rule from the Song of Gold and Darkness supplement; I might give Three-eye Stealth, as he looks rather sneaky. Hopper could have Tailslap and Slow or Acrobat, depending how you think his peculiarities would work. I'd give the winged guy Leader, Flying and Long Move. The furry chap might get Heavy Armour, and the warty fellow could have Poison. The wizened old shaman would be weaker but also have magical powers.
Put that into the warband builder and you get a highly individualised goblin band that looks like this:
Chaos goblins
Horned goblin; points 27; Q4; C3; Dashing
Two-headed goblin (personality) ; points 20; Q4; C2; Group Fighter
Mace-tailed goblin; points 27; Q4; C3; Tailslap
Long-necked goblin; points 20; Q4; C2; Mutant
Three-eyed goblin; points 24; Q4; C2; Mutant, Stealth
Hopping goblin; points 12; Q4; C2; Acrobat, Slow
Flying goblin (personality); points 100; Q3; C3; Flying, Leader, Long Move
Furry goblin; points 20; Q4; C2; Heavy Armour
Plague goblin; points 20; Q4; C2; Poison
Goblin shaman (personality); points 30; Q4; C1; Magic-User
And it come to exactly 300 points (the regular warband size). It's got half, rather than one-third, of the warband in personalities, but it looks pretty balanced and fun to play. I must dig out what surviving chaos goblins I have and bathe them in Dettol ...
I love this ability to create warbands from whatever miniatures you have to hand (and very quickly too, with the online builder). But I also love the way the game plays out. The variety of activation-related rules like Gregarious and Leader mean that a well-led troop of hobgoblins/uruk-hai plays very differently from a rag-tag and ill-led mob of orcs. And the same applies across all the different profiles.
Although there are dozens of special rules, you don't need to remember them all. I usually check unfamiliar ones before a game that uses them and then don't need to consult the rules thereafter. A lot of it is intuitive and simple. And it plays out really fast.
By the way, the problem of figures doing nothing all game is easily solved by using the "free move" rule for models with no foes within 2 X Long. The trick is to move them first, and then start rolling to activate more crucial characters.
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I have been wargaming now for 30 years and have played a lot of rules in that time (although i admit i have not played Mordheim).
Our group have been playing SoBaH regularly the last year and IMO it is one of the best rule sets i have played. It has a simple fast original system that is very flexible and works well.
It is true that if you roll badly some figures may not be activated often but from expierience in rules like Black Powder if you roll badly whole brigades dont move. It is even more true of all GW rules - Even a good plan has no chance if you roll badly. There a also ways of improving activation such as having a leader nearby.
The best bit for me was it inspires you to paint up a lot of figures that were bought for good ideas that were never realised and they ended up gathering dust. With the small warbands needed for SoBah you can paint up a few and they regularly get used on the table.
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The best bit for me was it inspires you to paint up a lot of figures that were bought for good ideas that were never realised and they ended up gathering dust. With the small warbands needed for SoBah you can paint up a few and they regularly get used on the table.
Yes, this! I love shopping flea markets and bargain bins, because I know that every cool old-school figure from a long-lost game line that I unearth will eventually see action in my SBH games.
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I agree entirely. At the very end of my first wargaming "career" (largely spent in Warhammer), I played some games of Hordes of the Things. I remember it as an utter revelation: games were quick, highly tactical and, best of all, you had complete creative freedom to come up with an eye-catching and interesting army.
Song of Blades is like that but better still, in that your choices aren't constricted to archetypal templates. You can stat up whatever you like, and if there aren't the special rules that you need in the basic book, you can import them from the supplements or from the related games (Mutants and Death Ray Guns, Of Gods and Mortals, A Fistful of Kung Fu, etc.). We've had some brilliant games pitting GW tyranids and Mantic sci-fi marauders against goblins or ratmen. It all works fine. And the points system works far better than those I remember from other games. In Fistful of Kung Fu and the playlists for Fightin' Fungi, the reaction system adds a brilliant new dimension too.
Most of all, when you construct a warband from a bunch of random miniatures, you almost always end up with the germ of a story. And that feeds into narratives for games - which is the main thing, in my view.
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The only caution I would add to using multiple characters and the reaction system is that it is very powerful. If you do use the reaction system, try to follow the recommendation of only one character in your band.
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Ah - it's slightly different in the Fightin' Fungus set-up, where each model can react only once per turn. It's less of a Fistful of Kung Fu superheroic thing (where the hero can do all kinds of extravagant stuff during his opponent's turns) and more of a facilitator of simultaneous movement and shooting. We played a three-player game with unlimited reactions, and it worked very well. Because each model can react only once per turn, virtually the whole of each warband did something in the opposing players' turns. And because so much of the "reaction" was far from the main action, a lot of the movement was literally simultaneous. No one could leave the table because of the constant involvement of each player.
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Well, I think you guys have sold me. I have a lot of random miniatures and the ability to make up stats for any of them is really a selling point as is the idea of playing with my kids.
One last question before I get the book. I know there are a lot of books beyond the basic book. I want to check out the city warfare one, the name escapes me. For a fantasy player are there any other books I need to consider?
Thanks for the info.
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I think that's Songs of Shadows and Dust (the Roman streetfighting one). I'm intrigued by it, but have yet to buy it.
The supplements are a kind of "as and when" thing. You can go a long way on the basic rulebook. The two main ones are Song of Gold and Darkness and Song of Wind and Water. I bought them both in PDF at the same time, so tend to confuse their contents. SGD has dungeon-exploration rules, while SWW has wilderness and outdoor rules. Both have lots of new profiles. Song of Deeds and Glory has campaign rules, while Song of the Splintered Lands is a specific campaign. They're all certainly worth getting, but I'd add them incrementally.
The others, as far as I know, are variants for different settings. Mutants and Death Ray Guns is an even smaller-scale post-apocalyptic game with a brilliant campaign system (food is as important as ammo, and that's pretty important), while Song of Arthur and Merlin is the SBH rules plus three Arthurian settings and loads of era(s)-appropriate rules and scenarios. I haven't played any SAM stuff out straight, but have adapted a lot of the ideas to a more generic setting. We've also mashed up MDRG with SBH quite a bit (aliens vs goblins and that kind of thing).
I can thoroughly recommend SBH for playing with kids. My son is hooked on the game (thanks in large part to the relentless success of his lizardmen). And it works well with more than two players.
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How old is your son? I have 7,8, and 9 year olds. My ex wife has them playing Hero Quest and the older two can hold their own in board games like Settlers of Cattan. They also play that Star Wars pre painted miniature game.
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My son's six. I got the rules and painted some miniatures (the first in more than two decades!) for his birthday last September. Before that, he'd played Castle Panic, King of Tokyo and Settlers of Catan. I think all the games you mention are more mechanically complicated than SBH, so you'll be fine. Of course, skirmish games are more free-form, but I think that works better with kids anyway: "My guy's going to climb up there and shoot the ogre ..."
For kids, I'd recommend giving them smaller warbands of more powerful characters. These are easier to keep control of. Lizardmen work well, because with Quality of 3 (lower is better) and Combat of 4 (higher is better), they're both brave and tough. And they come in at 52 points, so you can just round off to 50 and work out simple warbands very quickly: six lizardmen for 300 points, etc. Elves are another good one: they have Q2 (the best possible) and C3. One of our favourite 400-point warbands is four elite elven archers and an elven bowmaster (stats from the rosters in the book). The bowmaster can fire multiple shots per turn, so there's a lot of opportunity to massacre opponents gleefully from afar.
One thing that makes the game easy for kids to grasp is the use of measuring sticks rather than tapes (as in these photos - devoid, alas, of much in the way of eye-catching terrain!). This makes movement really simple and intuitive: the figures just "leapfrog" the stick. And the Song of Winds and Water supplement has profiles for dinosaurs, which always go down well ...
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I wish someone independant who was a massive mordheim fan would do a review on all the campaign skirmish systems out there with pros and cons.
Brink of battle, Fanticide, DD: Warbands, etc. I would be very interested in that.
Here's a review of the fantasy supplement for Brink of Battle http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=72283.0
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Here's a review of the fantasy supplement for Brink of Battle http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=72283.0
That one sounds great as well, I got them both. Can't wait to try them out.