Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: sir_shvantselot on July 11, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
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I have actually painted some Black Tree and Crusader 28mm Russians, but till I sort out pics, thought people might be interested in a scale comparison in front of a Heer 46 heavy howitzer: from L to R, black tree; warlord; rusader; black tree; warlord.
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Go on, show us the painted ones too :)
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Very helpful! Thanks.
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Go on, show us the painted ones too :)
Wow. What a friendly forum. Haven't based them, which makes all the difference but here you go. I tried to keep it very simple. No more than three highlights and a bit of shading for anything other than the skin. Otherwise no idea how I how I will get through 50 minis. Annoyed about the weird join line on the turret on the old plastic Warlord T34. Also have no idea how to paint or weather tanks as only ever painted fantasy GW. Listened to some GHOST podcasts and sounds like a lot of work - paint in acrylics, matt varnish and then oil paints. Have a two year old so not sure how that will work...
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Great start so far.
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Looking good. Any chance to list the colours you used for the uniforms?
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I couldn’t find anyone to play Bolt Action and so abandoned this project (and all the many Soviet minis I have!) but have moved to Borehamwood, UK where there is a gaming store where I have seen people playing Second Edition. So I am slowly reading up on the new rules and will dust off my minis. I’ll start painting more and get them up here over time.
I have one thing I’d like to confirm with people who might know. I love the look of Bren Carriers and think it would be super cool to make up three plastic ones for Soviets in a 1000 point list. Modellingwise is use the Warlord Italieri kits and heads from some Warlord plastics.
1. First of all, I know I can have Bren Carriers under the lend lease rule and you can have a transport vehicle per each infantry unit and each artillery unit (I’ll definitely have three of those). So I can definitely have three?
2. Even with three Brens I could still technically take a 0-1 tank and 0-1 armoured car?
3. Here’s the crunch, you can replace the transport capacity of a Bren with a forward facing MMG in the Bren listing.
4. Can Russians do this too?
5. Can they just use the British Vickers MMG that will come with the kit as part of lend lease?
6. Does the Bren stop being a 0-1 transport if you replace transport capacity with a MMG!? It’s not an armoured car suddenly or a tank, so I would say yes.
7. Gamingwise is there benefit to having three 7+ damage soft skins with MMGs and LMGs? I would say yes as they can only be killed by MMGs/artillery/Panzerfäuste etc. and not small arms fire. And they have recce! And turn on the spot.
8. If the Bren is destroyed with this extra MMG then there’s no troops to dismount. They’re all crew and just die? Assume yes.
Well, however good they are, the modelling looks to be quite fun.
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First off, welcome back and Happy New Year! The mini comparison was very useful, I would be happy using all those manufacturers figures together no problem.
Your painting is great.
About your Bren Carrier problem, (and please don't take this the wrong way!) it is plain to see that you are coming from a rigidly points based GW background. You don't have to agonise over it so much. If you want 3 Bren Carriers (or 7 or 8), go ahead and have them. If you feel too constrained by a set of rules, find another set! There are dozens out there.
Personally I don't think the Soviets would have used the Vickers MMG even if it had been supplied, because of the calibre issues; but they certainly did seem to modify and upgun any foreign kit they got their hands on so you have a lot of leeway to put Russian medium or heavy MGs on a vehicle to your taste.
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Welcome back.
If you are allowed transport, and Universal carriers are on your transport list, then you can have as many as you have eligible (five or less figures) infantry units in addition to any as armoured cars etc.
I would have to look at the army book to see when or where.
The only issue would be eligible infantry units, Soviet units demand quantity and you need units that fit in a vehicle.
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@vodkafan:
How dare you...
Er, Ok. Yes, most of my wargaming life has been spent playing either Warhammer 7th edition or Blood Bowl, which are heavily points based games + organisation charts. You are right i should loosen up. But I’ve always found it hard to find a gaming group for historical games never mind an open minded one. And most people I find to play with share my background. Or even worse - Warmachine!
Anyway, reading a bit more around this obtuse issue I have found that Soviet units are capable of being bought as NCO + 4 dudes. However. It is not spelled out but it seems to me if you do replace transport capacity with a forward facing vickers MMG, then you should read it together with this text in the British book on a heavy machine gun: “A typical team consisted of a lance corporal gunner, a loader and an ammunition bearer. They were often carried in a Universal ‘Bren’ carrier.” This means the unit you have being carried but not paid for separately is an MMG team. Which makes sense otherwise nobody is being carried and you’d fall foul of the rule that your transport falls into enemy hands without any transport capacity whilst still being a transport. And if it gets hit, the unit which jumps out if any survive is the three dudes manning your MMG, minus the MMG which is attached now to the Bren...
Anyway, I will have fun modelling three of these from the Warlord Italieri Sets and finally have some use for the many Black after Design MMGs I have acquired.
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Most importantly, if your opponent agrees you can use it, then fine.
Gaming should be educational and fun (the education is that war is bad, it is just that the alternative can be much worse).
However, though I see your logic my understanding of the (admittedly first edition) rules and the two army books is...
For a British force, the MMG carrier is SP artillery, the infantry MMG team has the fixed rule even when it is carried by a Universal carrier (the crew, gun and ammo are carried in the carrier, they have to dismount to fire). The third use of the Universal Carrier was as an armoured Recce vehicle.
The Soviets used the Universal Carrier as a towing vehicle not as a transport, SP artillery, or .armoured car. You can replace kosmolets with Universal Carriers.
So strict Bolt Action games would not allow you to field multiple MMG carriers in a standard or theatre reinforced Soviet platoon. Even the Tank War reinforced platoon cannot field them.
But, if you ask nicely and use the "Rule of Cool", you might.
Hey, if you look on my thread, I have an FT and a Carden Loyd MMG for my Sea Lion defence force and a Panzer IB with light autocannon for the attackers.
Oh, and I think there is a patch for the issue with empty Transports with guns not being able to fire them for Bolt Action 2 and K47.
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http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6076
OK. Thank you all for your time (and Ultra where is a link to your blog as i couldn’t find it in searching to see your carriers?). I have looked deeper into this vexed question, the alternative being to watch my children in a secure soft play area for the second hour running.
The above WWPD chat says “The defense of the interpretation of the Universal Carrier rules fall into that dark recess of rules lawyering known as "Unsaids".”
So, for the GW-trained mind, there is plenty to debate but I have arrived at some clarity, and agree totally with Ultra.
In the British book, the Universal Carrier is listed under a number of different categories. Take, for example, “SELF PROPELLED ARTILLERY MACHINE GUN CARRIER The Universal Carrier was adapted to many roles, one of the more straightforward being the addition of a Vickers MMG turning it into a mobile firing platform for a machine gun. Although the Machine Gun Carrier is not strictly speaking ‘artillery’ we’re included it in this category as its role most closely approximates to that of a support weapon rather than, say, an armoured car”.
Rick Priestley apparently said “Some 'transports' can be given permanent crews in which case they stop being transports and become mobile crewed weapons - for example a Bren Carrier mounting a Vickers MG or Boys AT rifle"
So it seems to me, as you say, if you put an MMG on a Bren it is no longer a transport and you can take 0-1 of them as your SPA choice.
But who cares about an MMG. The entry under Transports for Universal Carrier let’s you upgrade to a pintle mounted LMG, which is one dice less than an MMG, which together with the existing front LMG gives out 8 fire dice an activation and you get transport, recce, turn on the spot and 7+ armour. And you can have as many as you have infantry squads (which probably need to be able to fit into it - 5 vet guards with ppsh!)
Can the Soviets use Universal Carriers as SPA or as infantry carriers like this with two LMGs? It is not clear what saying under lend lease rules that a Universal Carrier is a substitute for a komsomoletz means unless you are correct - that it’s a tractor. Which is no fun.
But under the rule of cool I doubt anyone I am playing would care. It’s quite pricey pointwise to get a couple of double LMG shots off, then dismount the troops and have a 70 point Universal Carrier with nobody left to fire the weapons for four turns.
So maybe I would take one Universal Carrier with an MMG as an SPA, one as a recce vehicle with 2 LMGs, ie as an armoured car but no transport capacity and maybe a couple more with no upgrades and as usual transports...
And having driven everyone nuts on this, I also have a lot of Black Tree and Artizan British late war Commandos and, thinking about it, the Universal Carriers I have described are probably a best fit with them - mobile, armoured and delivering small groups of heavily armed vets to where they’re needed... and probably much easier just to do some head swaps than work out how do Soviet crew!
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The carrier and the FT are here http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=97132.msg1262346#msg1262346 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=97132.msg1262346#msg1262346).
Blog: http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/empress-miniatures-carden-loyd-mmg.html (http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/empress-miniatures-carden-loyd-mmg.html)
I look forward to seeing yours painted.
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The carrier and the FT are here http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=97132.msg1262346#msg1262346 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=97132.msg1262346#msg1262346).
Blog: http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/empress-miniatures-carden-loyd-mmg.html (http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/empress-miniatures-carden-loyd-mmg.html)
I look forward to seeing yours painted.
It all looks really great and is an inspiration.
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So I recently played a game of Bolt Action. Soviet vs US Marines. Cold War gone hot. This was my list:
1. Regular First Lieutenant with Regular friend with SMG
2. Inexperienced Commissar with friend
3. Free green squad (12 anti tank grenades but no LMG)
4. 12 Green militia squad rifles (only)
5. 2 anti-tank rifle teams
6. Veteran sniper team
7. 10 Guards squad 7 SMGs
8. 10 Guards squad 7 SMGs
9. Inexperienced heavy howitzer + 10 (Spotter)
10. Regular KV2 3 MMGs (one coax) and heavy howitzer
11 Inexperienced truck (carries 12)
1000 points
Marines had a lot of regular infantry, flame thrower, anti tank gun, maybe a couple of MMGs and a Sherman. There was a lot of terrain.
We just played who could wipe out the most units and just got to four turns, taking quite some time to engage with the rules as it es basically our first game. I lost 5-4 or something like that.
The Soviet infantry rushed forward into buildings and mostly stayed in them and shot outwards without hitting anything, and the marines were too scared to charge them, and didn’t hit much in return. My sniper and spotter were up in a church, which the anti tank gun hit and killed the spotter and pinned the sniper for the rest of the game. It also meant my howitzer couldn’t really see anything for the rest of the game (lots of terrain). My anti tank rifles couldn’t hit the Sherman. One SMG infantry unit jumped in the truck, rushed forward and machine gunned and then charged and wiped out a marine squad standing front of the Sherman. The Sherman drove past them and shot at the Soviet infantry in the buildings and didn’t hit much. It took two pot shots over two turns at the KV2, the second one of which just turned it into a burning wreck. The KV2 had failed to hit anything with its howitzer. I really should have set it up opposite the infantry on the other side of the table (though I think the anti tank gun would have done for it. There was some cinematic moment where the marine flamethrower rushed into the open to spray the Soviets in a building but...click...click, they rolled a one to hit. And the Soviets just machine gunned them down.
The rules were fun but we were a bit slow with them. Not sure the tank was worth it. Not sure I needed such a big howitzer either.
I’m wondering what to substitute in. I have loads of Soviet models. A few MMGs, mortar, scouts, sailors, maybe enough infantry for another two squads
, T34/85, Gaz jeep, BA10 armoured car and SU76.
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The truck carried smg squad does for the marines.
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The Sherman takes a simple shot at the side of the KV2
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Another cracking game of Bolt Actions, Japanese versus Marines at the Pit Gaming Shop, Borehamwood.
1074 points (as the lazy Japanese player, me, couldn’t be bothered to work out what to drop to get down to 1000).
I played the following:
First lieutenant regular + 2 regulars
IJA infantry squad 15 including 1SMG; LMG
IJA infantry squad 15 including 1SMG; LMG
IJA grenadier squad 9 including 1SMG; 3 light mortars; LMG
Bamboo fighters 10
Regular MMG
3 anti tank (one man) teams 1 regular
2 regular sniper teams
Medium mortar
Kai Shinhoto Chi Ha regular
I don’t know exactly what the Marines took but it was something like four infantry units with BARs, two MMGs, a Sherman, a bazooka, some kind of anti tank gun, a sniper, a medic and a priest.
We played the scenario where you basically just try kill as many units as possible and compare action dice differences. Hell in the Pacific indeed.
The scenery was lovely. A pretty little Far East village and a river running by.
Much of the American force were either on a hill with full sight of the field of battle or in a very large bunker. And I was not going to win a firefight.
I realised I needed to just Banzai across the village ASAP and get the best out of fanatic...and Banzai rules.
I spent turns one and two charging across the field. There was not a lot of cover. It was ruled the benches and rock gardens were soft cover, and were too small to cover 50% of my units anyway. The Americans started taking out decent chunks of the infantry who started to accumulate pins, which only Banzai could cleanse (go auto double ones on order checks!). But to get Banzai the infantry had to charge directly at the enemy rather than frog hop between buildings...and I’d taken units of 15 to account for attrition, and it’s hard to hide fifteen guys...
The snipers, MMGs, mortar, anti tank gun traded fire but the Americans were getting the best of it. The Japanese MMG May have wounded nothing all game. The Japanese mortar certainly hit nothing all game and spent about half of it failing order tests. No understanding of the threat to the home islands!
I learned the hard way there’s no point putting infantry in a building anyway if the opponent has a serious over the sights HE weapon. Its hard to miss the side of a barn, the shell goes into the building and...kaboom.
At the end of turn two there were about twenty five Japanese casualties to one American. I queried my investment in so many fantastic Assault Group and Warlord metal minis...
Then turn three came...and there was nowhere for the American infantry to run in the centre of the field and in the bunker.
I’d used my first lieutenant “with me” rule to pull dice out the bag to Banzai charge the bamboo sticks and one big infantry unit up the field (though usually screwing up and having one or other of the units too far from the lieutenant to benefit - my first mistake).
But they got there, slightly depleted. My opponent had had fun pouring fire into the MMG, mortar and chi ha, looking at the big pile of infantry dead. But it wasn’t enough (the pile of infantry dead looked big but it was clippings off the edges of four units). Once they made contact with his infantry it got very ugly indeed and over turns three and four there was just a lot of brutal hand to hand as the much of the Japanese infantry ended up within the US set up area, including in the bunker! The centre of the US position crumbled and you should have seen the smaller US units bundle out of that bunker running towards the Japanese lines after 10 Japanese made it in at the other end and wiped out an MMG!
But the American left and right flanks had survived. During all this carnage the Sherman has done little more than cause a few infantry casualties.
One of my tank hunters pile dived out of a building toward the side of the Sherman. It would have been ugly for the Sherman. But this being my third game of Bolt Action (and my opponent’s fourth), and learning the rules, I hadn’t remembered reactive fire to assaults. Ten MMG shots riddled our kamikaze hero before he reached the tank. My second mistake.
Avoiding a face off with the Sherman, the chi ha had used an intervening building to good effect and started taking pot shots at US infantry on the US right flank - causing mostly pins. A heroic bazooka team dived in front of the chi ha and took a pot shot...and failed to penetrate! The chi ha spent the rest of the game taking a long time to machine gun them down as they spent all their time...down. Once they were dead, the anti tank gun tried but failed to take out the chi ha. There was a fire but it got put out. It survived...but achieved very little all game except wasting the bazooka’s time and a bit of the Sherman and anti gun’s (which I guess it what allowed the infantry to Banzai through hell through the middle of the field of battle).
On the US left flank an MMG and infantry unit outduelled the Japanese grenadier squad and its three light mortars, who hit nothing all game and then started piling up pins making them do less and less.
In turns five and six the two US flanks turned inwards and poured huge firepower into the Japanese infantry who had heroically collapsed the US centre. With limited firepower, doing little damage in turn five from the bunker, and having relied mostly on Banzai anyway so far , they charged out the bunker, for a laugh, at the Sherman to practise the rules on infantry assaulting a tank. They weren’t tank hunters. It wasn’t worth it. They failed to injure the Sherman. They got wiped out. The lone lieutenant, having butchered the medic and cleric, line charged the US left flank infantry unit...and achieved nothing, except meeting his ancestors.
With three units left, a sniper, the chi ha and the pinned witless remnants of an infantry unit, the Japanese pulled out to higher ground and a massive bunker complex with a year’s supply of grenades. The marines hadn’t brought flamethrowers. Good luck to them.
But the result was something like 6 dead US dice to 10 Japanese ones. As in real life, all Japan could do was cause temporary pain, but strategically was doomed for having done something as dumb as Pearl Harbour to the greatest industrial power the world had ever known.
What would I change in my list?
You cannot outshoot the the marines. They really don’t like it up em though. The small mortars achieved nothing. I thought they and the medium mortar would force the US to keep moving around, including towards me... but they just shimmied here and there in their set up area. The MMG was pointless. The chi has was pointless. The LMGs in the infantry squads were pointless. Anything except infantry was pointless. Next time I may invest in two platoons, two commanders who can pull extra dice out of the bag and get vast numbers of infantry up the field.
Also, I will place the tank hunters last, like after I know where the enemy tank is! Two out of the three were totally in the wrong place!
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Brilliant game of Bolt Action though. Gags about loads of infantry aside I’ve got a 105 howitzer coming. Maybe that will help in the fire duelling bits whilst infantry run up the field?
I also think the field needed more scenery, so the marines get one go at reactive fire and that’s basically it’s fair’s fair...and so I have taken about twenty five trees out of the garage for our next game. I’m sure my opponent will agree... I’m sure loads of pines and oaks grow on coral islands.
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I was recently inspired to finish assembling some artillery for my Japanese bolt action force. There is nothing more entertaining than bringing down a building your enemy is hiding in with a heavy howitzer attack! But I must say, though I do love warlord games for a wide range of reasons, the crew miniatures are pretty awful sculpts.
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Also, had a bit of fun with the bold action tank war book, where I played with 3 T34s and a couple of IS2s versus various Shermans and some kind of things that look like tanks but were basically soft skin vehicles that were glass cannons and went up in flames with one puff quite a lot. Not a very deep and inspiring game, but good fun with four players, two per side drawing four different coloured dice and taking potshots at one another. Is what a tanker worth a visit?
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Played another game of Japanese versus US marines.
I had the following:
First lieutenant regular 75 + 1 regular
IJA infantry squad 15 including 1SMG;
IJA infantry squad 15 including 1SMG;
Bamboo fighters 10
Regular MMG
3 anti tank (one man) teams regular
2 regular sniper teams
1 vet scout squad (2SMGs)
Medium mortar
105mm field gun regular plus spotter
Marines had something like three units of infantry pumped with BARs, two infantry flamethrowers and a Stuart mounted flamethrower, a sniper and three MMGs.
12 v 13 dice.
It was the scenario where you bring on units in turn one and just try kill for as many dice as possible.
I forgot Japanese snipers start on ambush and so let the US sniper take out one of mine in turn one.
My MMG was effectively taken out in turn one whilst the marines advanced.
The mortar hit on a 6 and 5 in turns 1 and 2 pinning the daylights out of a marine squad. My medium howitzer over the sights took chunks out of another squad and an MMG but didn’t destroy them.
I advanced my two infantry units up the centre right flank escorted by the extra dice of the first lieutenant but the flamethrower Stuart screeched up to them in turn two and after one casualty on a 15 man unit they failed a morale check (had a couple pins) and fled off the table. Combined fire from one of the MMGs and a marine infantry squad took out the second and the sniper did for the lieutenant.
The flamethrower on my left flank took out my other sniper in a building and a tank hunter.
One of my tank hunters dived out of the central wooded area and hit the Stuart in the front arc and pierced it. It rolled a three but put out the fire. I think we may have forgotten some adverse rule like brewing up for a tank-mounted flamethrower. But as we did it the tank was disappointedly left unscathed.
So my central and left flanks had collapsed bar the medium howitzer (which was doing well but not getting dice by taking out whole units - it missed the side of the Stuart which would have made quite a difference to the game though).
But my right flank was doing well. The bamboo fanatics had reached charge range of a flamethrower which had done nothing. They never panicked, becoming regular, after the flamethrower got off a shot in the turn before they charged. They then got bamboo speared to death.
My vet scouts came on the right flank, took out the rest of the infantry unit, pinned to smithereens by the howitzer, and a US MMG just got out of the way and awaited oblivion.
But it was getting late. It was something like 8 dead Japanese dice to two American’s. Most of mine were the three tank hunters, two snipers and lieutenant on top of the two proper infantry units gone. I might have picked up a couple of dice from combats on the right flank but the small team and single minis on the US were well tucked away in the US rear.
I conceded at the start of turn 4.
I will be investing in more infantry and bamboo dudes, and dropping a sniper, MMG and couple of anti tank dudes. And maybe waiting a few more turns before advancing up the board?
Thoughts?
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Glad i'm not the only one building up a Japanese force! I agree about the crew sculpts.. not very dynamic.
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Glad i'm not the only one building up a Japanese force! I agree about the crew sculpts.. not very dynamic.
Well, I bought more infantry and bamboo militia. But my opponent has invested in a late war German army. Not sure what he’ll be taking but his pics of some assembled stuff is attached. So I’ve pulled together this Soviet 1000 point army list. Thoughts?
1000 point list - anti tiger
1. Regular Second Lieutenant with Regular friend with SMG -
2. SU76 + medium anti tank gun - regular
3. Free green squad (12 anti tank grenades but no LMG)
4. Truck - regular
5. 10 Guards squad 5 SMGs + Panzerfaust
6. Veteran sniper team 65
7. 10 Guards squad 5 SMGs + Panzerfaust
8. 10 Guards squad 5 SMGs + Panzerfaust
10. Inexperienced heavy mortar + spotter
12. Medium howitzer (regular)
11. Horse drawn limber
12. Zis 3 (regulär)
13. 8 Veteran squad (Sailors); SMGs; 2 Panzerfäuste
997
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I’m prepping for a thousand point Bolt Action game with Sikh British vs Panzergrenadiers.
Proposed list:
Special rule: Blood curdling charge
First Lieutenant 75pts (Regular) + friend
Artillery Forward Observer Free + extra man
3x 5 Ghurka infantry [2 with 1 SMG and 1 with 2 SMG].
3x Bren Carrier Regular including one single forward facing LMG.
3x 10 REGULAR INFANTRY SECTION (MID-/ LATE-WAR)
25 pounder - (Regular) - 3 men Weapons: 1 light howitzer Options.
Medium mortar (3 inch) (Inexperienced) Team weapon
MMG 35pts (Inexperienced)
Boys anti-tank rifle (Regular)
Horse tow
1004
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I did a video unboxing the Assault Group Japanese and a quick summary of a few Bolt Action games:
Assault Group WW2 Japanese unboxing & Bolt Action games
https://youtu.be/4ua5VJJIbHw
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Finally got round to painting the tanks…
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Not sure how I missed this thread. Very entertaining. Well done!