Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: arget8 on July 13, 2015, 06:58:09 PM
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What are your most desired ranges for 28mm moderns (Post 1990)? As some of you may remember, I am slowly working towards developing a couple modern ranges. The purpose of this thread is to find out which nations, organizations, etc. are the most wanted or needed. From the web trolling that I've been doing, these would be insurgents in western clothes and a generic 2nd or 3rd world military (Middle East/SE Asia/Africa). However, I also feel that there are many underrepresented factions that I have seen desire for, so my own ideas are not set in stone. The plan is to start with two ranges, but I would like to expand if they are a success.
Feel free to throw anything out there, no nation too small! This will play a large part in my decision of what I will work towards producing. Think of it as an opportunity to have your dreams for Sweden or Iran or any other unrepresented faction finally realized. Please, don't hold back. I want to know what the people want!
Gunnar
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South Koreans first, North Koreans second.
Arrigo
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Civilians! The most under represented range of the lot.
Sure not exciting but makes your table look pretty n realistic plus targets of opportunity for the tangos.
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If you're going to enter into the 28mm modern market, being aware of what the competition's doing is key. See Empress Miniatures and Spectre have recently been coming out with the more niche (if the Chinese military could be considered niche, etc) factions. Both of them I think do insurgents. However in no way is that me saying don't, rather its good to have diversity in the market, especially if what you come out with compliments both of those company's ranges. :)
Showing my bias here, Russian special forces units would be cool (the guys with the ballistic faceplates particularly), or rather just anything of their's. Soldiers with AKs seem quite common, though finding ones with AS Val rifles and the less mainstream equipment are less common (though 20mm models have a decent coverage).
Israelis would be awesome, even more so because nobody seems to make them at all (you used to be able to get the 60s and 80s ones, but those are long since OOP). Tavor wielding soldiers would be quite useful for a few country's special forces and PMCs actually come to think of it.
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Empress and Eureka are the top dogs in this game and I would be a fool to try competing with them in the realm of the major NATO nations, Russia, China, and the Taliban. However, I want to bring ranges that will complement them rather than compete. I have my own Empress figs and have no plans to replace them, haha.
Civilians are high on my list as well, both western and afghan. Israelis are another big one as I can't believe that they haven't been done in 28mm yet. The Koreans are also a great idea.
Keep it up, guys! I want to create ranges that no one else has.
Gunnar
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South American drug wars. CIA, SEAL teams, cartels. That sort of thing?
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Gangs I suppose are a bit timeless given that they tend to use whatever weapons they get a hold of, but talking about civilans those could be interesting. The same goes for armed police, but again a guy with an MP5 from the 80s is probably good enough for today.
However you're asking this specifically because people who look like they're from the 80s don't mesh in with modern equipment. Armed police nowadays may look the same to a regular guy, but some who cares enough to buy a model of one will note the different gun (and attachments) and that they're wearing a plate carrier.
So on that note, a lot of companies do generic gang and police models, but few do cutting edge ones. Picture your 80s gangster and compare them to a modern one. Fashion senses change, as have the weapons.
Both of those groups could have a lot of mileage to them (different gang styles, different police specializations. A well funded Mexican cartel will look a hell of a lot different from some crack dealers in Detroit - though that Cartel could cross over their equipment a lot with what the local police are using...), though I guess its whatever catches people's fancy (and your's). Maybe start up a poll with whatever ideas seem like they have the most traction at some point?
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JDF, I would love to model a potential Chinese Japanese conflict. Barring that, Korea, North and South, then maybe some South American militaries?
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Vietnamese People's Army; they're a logical opponent for Empress' PLA if you scale them to tie in with that range and they'd likely make great generic SEA forces.
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Another vote for Israelis with Tavor (and wearing mitznefet helmet covers)
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South Koreans, North Koreans, Modern Israelis, western civilians, and western style insurgents.
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Civilians, western style insurgents, Smaller NATO countries and female british soldiers to represent none front line units for the brits.
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You cant have enough insurgents.
Ild like to See some 28mm minis geared to yugoslavia for mid 90s.
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If someone does come out with Israeli troops, I'd finally have an excuse and possible market for all the 1:56 IDF kits we've completed in CAD.
M50 tanks, M51's, converted M3 halftracks, Mutt's, Captured BTR conversions, M113 converions... Then i could also do the T-55 for them to blow up!
-company b
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Israeliens would be cool
Irakien ultra moderne
Ultra modern french army !
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Ooh, I'd have to second or third the North Koreans. Also, South African military and RCMP, both dress uniform and modern. Any nations helicopter crew for crash\rescue scenarios. A couple of the various UK Regiments in ceremonial dress on guard duty, Rifles, Guards, Household Cavalry, Royal Horse Artillery.
For civilians I'd suggest a couple of those charity muggers we see on the high street, maybe a poppy seller, that kind of thing.
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Forgot the JGSDF! We need them...
Arrigo
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German KSK and Bundeswehr, portuguese, Japanese and south americans. North koreans are interesting for twilight 2013.
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It's worth looking at this thread:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=65236.0
But 'Elite Squad' BOPE and favela residents (men, women and children) would be great.
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Oh yeah, ultra modern, french, German, Canadian.
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I'd vote for Israelis, Aussies & modern French. But don't tell Bryan B about the French, he'll think I'm becoming a Francophil!
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I don't think I'll be doing French or Germans as I have seen that Empress plans to put them out soon, even if they have been pretty vague about it ;). I do know they have said that there is a big project in the pipes for next year. I feel that everyone will be happy with what they put out for these nations and I am not prepared for that competition. My plan is to create a range that is not already in production, such as Israelis, Koreans, and Japanese. I've been seeing a lot of great ideas here. I'm loving the wishlist that we have been creating!
Gunnar
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Definitely modern African Union and Middle East/North African troops, with AK's and other Russian weapons, Chicom style chest rigs and kevlar fritz helmets. These would be really useful.
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This wont have much competition but will be usefull for most (modern) players:
generic drivers maybe one generic (eastern style) uniform + civilian
would be awesome with changeable heads
also some passengers, gun swinging, smoking, or just holding their elbows tight would be cool.
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I'd like to see more gang wars type stuff along the lines of Obelisks Gangstars range or Bobby Jackson's Thugz. How about Mexican gangsters? Jamaican Mobsters? Tong? Riot Police?
Now that Mongerel minis is dead Israelis would be good too.
And I agree with the idea that there aren't enough civvies...
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So these are the results so far:
Koreans (North and South)- 4
Civilians- 6
IDF- 7
JDF- 3
Western Insurgents- 4
NATO countries (Styled after Eastern European nations)- 2
Female Soldiers- 1
Generic 2nd and 3rd world (Middle East, Africa, South America, SE Asia)(AK's, either Chi-com webbing or PASGT style)- 5
South Africa- 1
France- 3
Germany- 2
Canada- 1
It looks like the IDF is most in demand at the moment, but the night is young! The Koreans are doing pretty well. Insurgents, civilians, and 2nd and 3rd world armies are up there too.
As I have said before, I am unlikely to push a range of French or Germans due to my desired scope of this range. I want to create a range that no one else is doing or has active plans to do. That being said, if there is an overwhelming demand for French or Germans I may consider it. I am more likely to consider French as they have seen more action in the last twenty years compared to Germany. Like I said, It would have to be overwhelming demand (At Least 50% of the requests).
I would love to hear more opinions! The plan is to keep this thread running for a week or so and base my decisions partly on the results here.
Gunnar
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The Arab Isreali Wars have some interesting game possibilites. I think that they could be popular.
I think the question is whether to do todays uniforms or 1970s versions. I would prefer current versions.
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Post 1990? Not much to be honest. Some modern Vietnamese might be nice as would some generic Latin American guerillas. Wellies BDUs/Jeans AKMs etc.
Nobody does any modern Indians which is a surprise considering their potential usefulness. OR Iranians, ditto. Latvians or Estonians would appear a sensible choice, providing potential opponents for those with the Empress modern Russians.
Pre 1990? Sky's your limit. I'd love to see ranges for the Iran-Iraq War, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the civil war(s) in Nicaragua and El Salvador And judging from forum posts I've seen here and there there would probably be a market for South Vietnamese for the Vietnam War.
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Post 1990? Not much to be honest. Some modern Vietnamese might be nice as would some generic Latin American guerillas. Wellies BDUs/Jeans AKMs etc.
Nobody does any modern Indians which is a surprise considering their potential usefulness. OR Iranians, ditto. Latvians or Estonians would appear a sensible choice, providing potential opponents for those with the Empress modern Russians.
Pre 1990? Sky's your limit. I'd love to see ranges for the Iran-Iraq War, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the civil war(s) in Nicaragua and El Salvador And judging from forum posts I've seen here and there there would probably be a market for South Vietnamese for the Vietnam War.
right?
I Remember a few years ago a guy tried to do a Kickstart for and Indian modern range but it didn't get funding. I blame that mostly on not getting the word out to enough folks about his project and myself being unemployed at the t8me.
Would have bought into it otherwise. lol
And the Latvian, Estonians and modern Finns might work. That is one reason why I said Germans because the Latvians seem to use a lot of their equipment at the moment and I said Canadian because I believe the Dutch use lots of the same kit also..what to the Danish land forces use these days?
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I honestly would love to do some smaller NATO forces (Baltics, Dutch, etc.). I am just worried that they would not be economical as many nations are pretty unique. For instance, Poland uses pretty similar gear as Germany and the US, but their weapons are more Soviet-styled whereas many other nations have 1st world gear and locally manufactured service rifles. This is the case with many nations, but if anyone who has first hand knowledge on many of the smaller nations wants to put some info out there, feel free.
Gunnar
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I second the Canadians!!!
Some sort of uniformed middle eastern troops (Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt etc)
Same as above but African.
Same as above but South American.
Easy right?
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commissarmoody:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Army
I find Wikipedia great for giving an overview of minor nations like this.
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right?
I Remember a few years ago a guy tried to do a Kickstart for and Indian modern range but it didn't get funding. I blame that mostly on not getting the word out to enough folks about his project and myself being unemployed at the t8me.
Would have bought into it otherwise. lol
And the Latvian, Estonians and modern Finns might work. That is one reason why I said Germans because the Latvians seem to use a lot of their equipment at the moment and I said Canadian because I believe the Dutch use lots of the same kit also..what to the Danish land forces use these days?
He posted here too. His problems: no green, no real idea of what he was doing, no willingness to put even a bit of effort before the KS. I blame mostly on him about more like a scammer than a serious KS. lol
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He posted here too. His problems: no green, no real idea of what he was doing, no willingness to put even a bit of effort before the KS. I blame mostly on him about more like a scammer than a serious KS. lol
That two, it was awhile ago so I forgot about that part, and this is Von Lucky. I actually found the link last night, but was at break at work so could not look it up when I replied earlier.
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I can promise you that I will be doing some up front investment on this range before I ask anyone else to put their cash forward. I remember that kickstarter as well. I understand that people want to see what they are paying for before they put their money forward.
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Do you have any examples of anything you've previously sculpted? I'd be interested in seeing the style, etc. :)
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I wont be sculpting them myself. I am in the process of finding one. I can't remember if I mentioned it in this thread, but the plan is to have them scale with Empress and share a similar style. I am considering ebob, trying to contact Tony Boustead, and also considering the digital sculpting option.
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I can promise you that I will be doing some up front investment on this range before I ask anyone else to put their cash forward. I remember that kickstarter as well. I understand that people want to see what they are paying for before they put their money forward.
Well... there is always Up Front kickscammer... I think that one burned a lot of wargamers, and left some short of several hundred dollars. Me? I did not back that one, and got a cheap legit print on demand copy from Wargame Vault. That was lucky :)
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Well... there is always Up Front kickscammer... I think that one burned a lot of wargamers, and left some short of several hundred dollars. Me? I did not back that one, and got a cheap legit print on demand copy from Wargame Vault. That was lucky :)
Ouch, just looked that one up. It seems that a lot of people lost a lot of money. These kind of fiascoes are why nobody trusts kickstarters farther than they can throw them. This is why I made sure to understand that they are an investment that pays out dividends in discounted products. I have invested in a few kickstarters and a couple have been chronically slow to come to fruition, but I know that backing a kickstarter is not buying from a webstore, it is investing in a project that has every possibility of failure that a normal business does. Business investors understand that investments don't always pay off and sometimes you lose. However, this is why most shrewd investors only invest when they have fully researched their market and the project itself.
Sorry about the mini rant, but I wanted to put that out there. Anyone backing a kickstarter of mine will be clearly informed that there is indeed true risk of delays, failure, and complete loss of their investment. I also want them to understand that I will be investing more of my own money than anyone else will be and I will be making non-refundable, up-front investments, such as commissioning sculpts for proof of concept. This project will be my baby and I do not want people to be able claim that I have any less skin in the game.
Anyway, back to our wishlisting!
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Tony boostead will be very nice
I love his job with empress and underfire miniatures
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While they may be less realistic, I'd like to see "Hollywood" type soldiers without helmets. Maybe in t-shirt and jeans or cargo pants.
Something similar to the characters from Strike Back for instance.
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While they may be less realistic, I'd like to see "Hollywood" type soldiers without helmets. Maybe in t-shirt and jeans or cargo pants.
Something similar to the characters from Strike Back for instance.
If I do western insurgents, they will look an awful lot like what you describe.
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Arget, what is your timeline for this? Don't suppose you're UK based are you? I only ask as I've been mulling over a small range recently (DRC/East Africa, African Union etc, potentially Entebbe era IDF) and wouldn't want to overlap.
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A repeated suggestion, no not just mine, that pops up from time to time is generic OPFOR. Separate heads, body armour, chest webbing and then separate arms with a range of typical weapons. AKM, M-16, Galil, G3 etc. Same deal with support weapons, FN MAG, Minimi, PKM, MG-3 etc. Then you do another couple of dollies for a figurewith chest rig webbing but without body armour. Give head options of Kevlar pot, beret, bush hat/boonie hat etc
They won't be 100% accurate for any particular army but would form the basis for most armies around the world. That means if you doa good job of them you have the widest potential market.
Some people don't like separate heads but if people are careful they can look quite good, look at the Red Star Indochina range, GB's Mofo range, Empress etc.
Years ago Eureka did something along this lines with their SWAT range. I thought it was a good idea. Separate legs, torsos and helmets, allowing mix and match. For those of us old enough to remember it was like the old Timpo plastic soldiers that many of us grew up playig with as children.
Anyway, just my two cents, which due to currency fluctuation is worth considerably less than it was a year ago.
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Well, the generic military will be similar to what you describe. They will likely be Chicom rigs with BDU style uniforms and weapons in the AK family. The plan is to have separate heads for the generics so that we can have several heads. The plan is to eventually have: Bare Heads: Middle Eastern ,Bare Heads: African, Bare Heads: European, PASGT: Middle Eastern, PASGT: African, PASGT: European, Ssh-68: Middle Eastern, Ssh-68: European, and M1: African
I'm thinking 4 separate heads per sprue. While this means a decent amount of repetition, most of these minis will be used for OpFor, which means that it shouldn't cause too many issues. Also, at 28mm, there is only so much visible variation in faces outside of being stereotypically racist, like many non-caucasian faces from many companies.
Gunnar
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I really like what Carlos mentioned. Please add berets, also europeans. There is a real lack of these. G3s are also always useful.
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Here's my list of 28mm modern wants:
1 - Modern Canadians suitable for Afghanistan
2 - Generic Tactical teams - not as high speed as SEAL type operators, but much like what was seen in the news lately - black utilities, rigs, helmets without covers, ARs etc
3 - Modern up to date Israelis
4 - Modern Civilians - Western, Afghan, Middle East, and ones that don't look like they're from a comedy movie
5 - Strike Back team like guys
6 - CIA SAD / Contractors (ball caps, contractor gear, chest rigs, ARs etc, they don't all need bushy beards)
7 - Hostage types - I know head-bagged HVTs are covered by someone, but something similar for generic games
8 - Street cops - Uniforms, peaked caps, etc, something sufficiently generic, with semi automatics, shotguns, etc
That's about it for now, there's always something else :)
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Not to try to distract from what people want, but eureka and spectre minatures make a lot of the contracter, generic special forces and alphabet soup organization's style guy's.
Only reason I am not tossing out light kit, Plat career, with only chest rig style US Army rangers and airborne units is because I am sure that I read some place that they where already in the works.
Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting more. :D
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Not to try to distract from what people want, but eureka and spectre minatures make a lot of the contracter, generic special forces and alphabet soup organization's style guy's.
Only reason I am not tossing out light kit, Plat career, with only chest rig style US Army rangers and airborne units is because I am sure that I read some place that they where already in the works.
Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting more. :D
Very fair point! I think what we're missing are the inbetweeners...The guys in ball caps with some scruff, but not full beards. Empress's SF cover OP Neptune Spear era, or 2001-2 really, there's not a really good representation of ODA types with issue BDUs, Caps, or helmets, scarves, mid-decade gear - OMLT, POMLT, ODA/ETT Types etc. ..
.but maybe it's just me. To Spectre's credits, their figures are cutting modern edge representations.
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True one all points, and even though I am pulling for some IDF, I totally want to get some Canadians for some red dawn action or to convert over to the Dutch or Danes.
That is right after I get some NORK and ROK action on in Korea...I need to get a better job to support my addiction.
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Oh! Forgot to add one -
USMC in MOPP suits, no masks, for Invasion of Iraq/Thunder Run to Baghdad.
That's all.
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I just thought of another personal vanity request, the two riders and bikes from CHiPs (California Highway Patrol) series.
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By the way : https://yannhoarau.artstation.com/portfolio/afghan-civilians
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I take it that vehicles are out of the question? Though (as with all equipment) a lot of countries are still using ones from decades ago, and so you can use those (albeit with some conversion work required, that is if you can those at all too), its difficult to get a hold of much of the current generation stuff. The Americans and the Brits are catered for, well at least you can get a hold of the mainstream stuff, but otherwise you're a tad stuffed.
The market in that area's aimed at 1/35th scale kits unfortunately. I guess down to the nature of vehicles being a bit boutique in an a time period which already doesn't have the largest player base. Admittedly people perhaps just don't see the point in making vehicles as games are often played with infantry skirmishes. The array of stuff being used out there's massive too, though saying that even the most common vehicles aren't covered.
There are diecasts out there which are usable, but these are few and far between. For instance right now I'm trying to hunt down a Gaz Tigr (the humvee style jeep that the Russians currently use), and though there were foreign diecasts available years ago, like hell I'll ever find one in 28mm scale. I suppose its an area where you either have to scratch build the stuff yourself or go without. Just a thought though, such as if you're doing Israelis then you could have their stuff (though they aren't perhaps the best example as you can in fact buy Merkavas or convert up Russian tanks to be their APCs).
My point? Hmn, I'm not sure if there is one other than whether its an area you're interested in or not.
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At this point, no vehicles. If the ranges have success, that would entirely be a possibility.
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Just saw that Stan Johansen Miniatures has two packs of IDF about to debut.
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It may be the painting style, but those Stan Johansen Miniatures look a bit "80s" looking. Of course if there all there is then that's what people will use, though at least with the images on their site they don't really have the same style as Empress' models. Hmn, a head swap may "fix" them however.
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It may be the painting style, but those Stan Johansen Miniatures look a bit "80s" looking. Of course if there all there is then that's what people will use, though at least with the images on their site they don't really have the same style as Empress' models. Hmn, a head swap may "fix" them however.
Hey, as someone who came of age in the 1980s, I object to the 'looks a bit '80s' being used as a stand in expression for 'looks totally shite'. :)
Be fair, tooth paste is a notoriously difficult sculpting medium.
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Hey, as someone who came of age in the 1980s, I object to the 'looks a bit '80s' being used as a stand in expression for 'looks totally shite'. :)
I think it is so often used in other references in the same way (80s sounding - for music and 80s looking - for clothes and hairstyles etc) that it has become a tactful metaphor.
:D
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They're not quite Empress or Eureka from the pics, this is true; but moderns are so patchily covered that it seems a shame to have any duplication at all.
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They're not quite Empress or Eureka from the pics, this is true.
Masterful understatement. I doff my hat to you sir :D.
In all seriousness, to each their own. If they float your boat, more power to you. They just don't do it for me. It doesn't help that his painting skills aren't too flash, the African figures all look like his painting references were some kind of Jim Crow era minstrel show. Leaving that aside you get bizarre poses like the Iraqi Army dance troupe, really badly sculpted weapons and some of the worst faces I've seen on a mini in ages. Strangely enough his vehicles look quite good.
If only these were as good as some of the toys available in the 1980s.
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Well, I was attempting to be polite. I'm actually a bit of a figure snob - all of my ultramoderns are in fact Empress & Eureka. ;)
(Incidentally, and without naming names, there are other companies whose vehicles are significantly better than their figures.)
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I'm a lot of a figure snob... unbelievably so... but we're drifting off topic, which is Arget8's request for options. ;)
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Those minis are not the style of minis that I want to produce. My goal is to make them as close to Empress and Eureka as possible as I feel they are the best infantry in the business. Speaking of Empress and Eureka, does anyone know how to contact Tony Boustead or Costa Herko besides Facebook?
Gunnar
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Kosta has a blog - infrequently updated, alas - at flyinggorilla.blogspot.com.au
One idea might be to "fill the gaps" in existing ranges that probably aren't going to be expanded. For example, the Eureka Germans went into production around '07, so they're missing some of the newest Bundeswehr kit - it's a very nice range as is, but it would be considerably more useful for contemporary conflicts with MG4, AG36 and HK417-armed figs. (And it seems to me that such an approach would benefit the sales of both companies.)
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I think I remember hearing that Empress have plans for Germans and French soon. I know they have been hinting at a big moderns project at the end of the year. My guess is Germans. I also don't want to make piecemeal ranges. I want to be able to make something along the lines of how Empress does their lines. You will have everything you need to build a platoon at the minimum.
Gunnar
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Truly moderns I would definitely second or third the Strike Back cast request.
Less modern but still appropriate - I would love to see 1960s-70s SAC elite guards in berets and class A uniforms, with scarfs, but in fighting poses. From person experience I know those guys always had a full ammo loadout, and some of them were always loaded and locked. Probably more of a Kiss Kiss Bang Bang request, but still...
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Truly moderns I would definitely second or third the Strike Back cast request.
Less modern but still appropriate - I would love to see 1960s-70s SAC elite guards in berets and class A uniforms, with scarfs, but in fighting poses. From person experience I know those guys always had a full ammo loadout, and some of them were always loaded and locked. Probably more of a Kiss Kiss Bang Bang request, but still...
Hi Steven! Nice to see a fellow trencher around here.
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I also don't want to make piecemeal ranges. I want to be able to make something along the lines of how Empress does their lines. You will have everything you need to build a platoon at the minimum.
... and that is where I think the bulk of figure ranges go wrong. They knock out a couple of packs of riflemen, which don't sell too good on their own and then don't produce any more 'because they aren't a seller'.
I can't speak for everyone, but when I buy figures, I buy a platoon's worth, along with their integral support. I've been burnt in the past, so if the range is not complete, I don't buy until it is. Needless to say I don't get to buy many.
So for me a 'completist' approach is a big plus. :)
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... and that is where I think the bulk of figure ranges go wrong. They knock out a couple of packs of riflemen, which don't sell too good on their own and then don't produce any more 'because they aren't a seller'.
I can't speak for everyone, but when I buy figures, I buy a platoon's worth, along with their integral support. I've been burnt in the past, so if the range is not complete, I don't buy until it is. Needless to say I don't get to buy many.
So for me a 'completist' approach is a big plus. :)
I'd agree with this. If it doesn't look like I can build the units I want through the main range or compatible ranges I'm unlikely to buy them.
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Well,
considering the poor chaps who are putting the money upfront to the sculptors and caster you cannot always expect a full platoon from the start. And if you do not buy the first release I doubt they will pour more money in the second...
And we are asking always from quite specific subjects :o (understatement).
Loom this way, someone here has asked for USMC in 2003 gear and MOPP suit but not masks. I know it is a legitimate request, but how many of those sets will be sold?
Yes you say kickstart them... well I am ambivalent on that. Kickstarter is potentially a dangerous route when you start to throw stretch goals at people. I realized I prefer a safe smaller range at start and support it with actual purchases, rather thank lofty stretch goals.
What I want in a range to consider it complete? Well a command pack, sufficient packs to do a full squad without wastage, support weapons that made sense. In 28mm I do not see the reason to have a TOW mount early on... or even mortars (I was calling for them by map coordinates, they are already cramped in 15mm... go figure in 28mm, it is interesting to see the note on IASBM where Rich suggest to keep the 81mm off table), thus usually short range ATGW or support weapons like LMGs and SMAWs, maybe a pack of special figures (these are usually nice to have). This is the thing I expect from an initial release. Everything else is a plus.
If I have to patronize and lecture someone who is not one of my students... (and right now they are being told: you cannot go to Bovington until you finish the first draft of your dissertation...) I would say let's do the ROKA range.
ROKA: 1 pack of platoon command (CO, SGT, RTO, Medic), 2 Pack of 4 riflemen (plus SAW and one Pzf-3), 1 pack with sniper, LMG team, FO. ATGM are TOW and Metlis-3 but well, in 28mm they off table... no need for mortars (off table assets, I prefer to have the FO).
As special stuff... maybe an M67 RCL (used by the reserve), squad leaders.
It is not a couple of riflemen packs, is not covering everything, you can start to play.
Arrigo
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Well put. Having enough types to make a platoon is essential.
The only thing I'd add is that either the range should complement an existing range of potential opponents or there should be a realistic prospect that the OPFOR will eventuate. All very well producing Tanzanians for the invasion of Uganda but unless the Ugandans, or suitable proxies already exist few enough people will take the punt before they see some opponents in the pipeline. That's one of the reasons I think a generic OPFOR range is a winner.
I'm not especially fond of Mike Broadbent's 28mm sculpts but the Krigespiel Musorians have allowed me to field Guineans/generic African regulars, Indonesians, Vietnamese, Egyptians and some Soviet era Afghan proxies.
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The no-mask thing was brought up for invasion of Iraq 2003 - they didn't wear the masks, an USMC and Army basically looked the same at that point in MOPP, just how you paint it, that's all - 3 colour desert vs woodland, coyote vests on the marines etc. There's plenty of Fedayeen types out there anyways. That's just my 2 cents
You're absolutely right, on both points above. There's partial ranges out there because having looked into it myself, getting 30 figures done, plus squash molds isn't cheap. That's before they're even cast, packaging, potential losses on shipping etc. If the initial figures don't sell that well, they don't even pay for themselves (which can take time anyways), and then you're out money, without any coming in. Larger companies that can do the molding and casting themselves don't have as much of a startup cash dump if they're already established.
I generally agree with everything that's been said...
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In order to get units on to the table they don't have to all be from the same range, as long as they look okay together I'm fine with mixing ranges. I've mixed Parkfield and Force of Arms quite happily for my Vietnam War collection. I know just how much it costs to get figures sculpted and cast! I'm fine to wait for ranges to be developed if the mainstays are available from that range or a similarly sized range that visually works with that range. I think Empress does a very good job of covering the basics early on then adding to them.
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considering the poor chaps who are putting the money upfront to the sculptors and caster you cannot always expect a full platoon from the start. And if you do not buy the first release I doubt they will pour more money in the second...
Do you buy a car a bit at a time? Or accept just the pastry and no filling, with the proviso that if the pastry sells well, the filling will follow? I'm sorry but as I said, I have had too many useless figures that never got the 'promised' support or command figures. I've done my share of funding half-completed ranges, feel free to pick up the torch.
;)
I'm fine to wait for ranges to be developed if the mainstays are available from that range or a similarly sized range that visually works with that range. I think Empress does a very good job of covering the basics early on then adding to them.
Well a command pack, sufficient packs to do a full squad without wastage, support weapons that made sense. In 28mm I do not see the reason to have a TOW mount early on... or even mortars *snip* ... usually short range ATGW or support weapons like LMGs and SMAWs, maybe a pack of special figures (these are usually nice to have). This is the thing I expect from an initial release. Everything else is a plus.
I don't ask for more than that myself, as Arrigo says... one section/squad's worth of figures including integral weapons, one command group and any integral platoon weapons, that works for me. Attached weapons and the other frills can come later. It is surprising how many ranges haven't managed to do that in the past.
Others bewilder me... a pack of four guys with LMGs, when few platoons have more than three, stuff like that which leaves you buying fifty figures when you only actually need forty.
Add in Carlos and Alex M's comments and you see a picture of what is the problem. Producing a range is not cheap, if you can't afford it don't do it. If you do, think about what is needed, rather than some half-assed and seemingly random mix of figures that require you to produce a ton of 'one-off' figures nobody wants more than one of, because they are in the same mould as some of the bread and butter types. 'Character' figures and command figures are always nice... but you will likely sell only one pack of them per customer... they should be in the same mould. If you don't produce opponents for them, or nobody else does, how well will they sell?
This is one of the few occasions when a prospective manufacturer is sounding out his customers thoughts and opinions before he makes the range... make use of it and everybody wins (probably).
:)
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Carlos - funny you should mention Ugandans & Tanzanians, I'm scoping out and collating uniform references for a range of Ugandans that I'm hoping to commission :) (But alas, for now, my OPFOR is IDF)
The need for a complete-ish range from the start is a good one and that's where the £££ comes in. From the costings I'm looking at, the mould making part isn't too bad, it's that initial up front cost of getting the platoons together for release. I'm looking at 1980s IDF and Ugandans, and I reckon as a minimum I'll need 40 unique sculpts to cover them and that's without support above LMGs/RPGs.
I'm very conscious that the numbers of people wanting to game Entebbe are going to be low, so even if I double that up with modifications to bring both sides up to current era IDF and African Union standard, it's going to be a long payback. And then if, say, Spectre, release similar troops to the Ugandans, the economics go haywire...
I can't make the maths add up for a Kickstarter, the fees seriously erode the profit and I can't see how you can get a decent sculptor on board if you van't give accurate timelines and commitments to them. It's a marketing tool for established companies IMO.
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Others bewilder me... a pack of four guys with LMGs, when few platoons have more than three, stuff like that which leaves you buying fifty figures when you only actually need forty.
Empress Brits spring to mind - try building a current Orbat without having loads of figures left over...
Making squad packs is more expensive though, but I guess you just look at everything in the round and say it doesn't matter that the LMG guys won't earn their money back as long as the AK47 guys do.
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Empress Brits spring to mind - try building a current Orbat without having loads of figures left over...
Making squad packs is more expensive though, but I guess you just look at everything in the round and say it doesn't matter that the LMG guys won't earn their money back as long as the AK47 guys do.
Do not worrry, they will be useful for the next modification in the ToE.
One of the problem with modern brits is that the ToE is evolving (charitable explanation, less charitable... they do not know what the hell are doing... plus there is the tendency to cater to people that wants more poses...
an additional problem is the flimsy nature of the market, today we are clamouring for the Eastern Mugabian Light Infantry, tomorrow we want the South Arseolian Mechanized brigade in summer uniform with caps... then how you define a range complete?
Nowadays I tend to think in squad elements, other people in platoons, other people I am sure want a full company with attached battalion weapons. Other just want a pack with their favorite characters... I love empress, I like the chaps, but in their kickstarts people were asking for mortars (81mm) and no SMAWs... even following vox populi can be tricky.
The need for a complete-ish range from the start is a good one and that's where the £££ comes in. From the costings I'm looking at, the mould making part isn't too bad, it's that initial up front cost of getting the platoons together for release. I'm looking at 1980s IDF and Ugandans, and I reckon as a minimum I'll need 40 unique sculpts to cover them and that's without support above LMGs/RPGs.
I'm very conscious that the numbers of people wanting to game Entebbe are going to be low, so even if I double that up with modifications to bring both sides up to current era IDF and African Union standard, it's going to be a long payback. And then if, say, Spectre, release similar troops to the Ugandans, the economics go haywire...
I can't make the maths add up for a Kickstarter, the fees seriously erode the profit and I can't see how you can get a decent sculptor on board if you van't give accurate timelines and commitments to them. It's a marketing tool for established companies IMO.
Plus how you will work with the Stretches? There was an interesting article on Battles Magazine on wargaming logistics (costs and stuff you put in the box) by Phil Sabin. I was once tasked to design and expansion for World at War covering China vs Vietnam, and my original design plan has to face the log part "I can give you only this amount of counters and you have to use existing maps" from the publisher.
I think planning a new range is a nightmare...
Arlequin cars and miniatures are different! lol
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This thread is becoming exactly what I had hoped it would be . A sounding board for what the modern wargaming community. While I would still like to hear opinions on what ranges are most desired, I am liking the opinions being put out here. I want to make a range that people will be happy with buying. I have spent a lot of my life working in small business so I know that the key is to give the people what they want to an extent. I will be creating a range that will, essentially, be chosen by the community. However, I will also be producing a range that will have everything you need for platoon level skirmish gaming. Things like mortars or tripod mounted MG's, and other battalion level assets may never even happen as they almost never appear on a battlefield alongside the infantry. However, things like SMAW's, Carl Gustav's, and any other platoon level assets will most certainly be included.
I also share your frustration with how minis are packaged. While I feel that sometimes it is an honest, yet inconvenient method of packaging minis, other times, such as when a company will package battalion level assets (That would not even be present on a skirmish battlefield) with a squad level weapon (in every single squad), it feels like a cheap deception. Forcing you to buy 3-5 extra packs (up to $60 or so) for a single guy from each to round out your platoon is, in my opinion, disingenuous. If a particular mini will not sell enough to be worth producing it without lumping it in with an absolutely essential weapon, then you shouldn't be producing it. 28mm modern gamers, from what I can tell, don't use tripod mounted machine guns or medium mortars on the table top. The range is just to small. In all honesty, if medium machine guns (m240b/gpmg) were not such an integral part of many platoons, I would hesitate to even include them, as the likelihood that they would be seen on a battlefield as small as we play on is very small.
That is why I will be doing my best to produce and package minis in the most useful fashion. Weapons that are brought to the battlefield will be produced, weapons that stay at the FOB will be a potential expansion.
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Hi Steven! Nice to see a fellow trencher around here.
Gaming minis take up less space than Joes. Until you get to a certain volume... ;)
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Arlequin cars and miniatures are different! lol
I've owned cars that cost less than a platoon of 28mm figures. :-I
;)
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I've owned cars that cost less than a platoon of 28mm figures. :-I
;)
accounting for inflation? :o lol But yes I agree... one of the reason I downsized to squads was cost.
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Empress Brits spring to mind - try building a current Orbat without having loads of figures left over...
Making squad packs is more expensive though, but I guess you just look at everything in the round and say it doesn't matter that the LMG guys won't earn their money back as long as the AK47 guys do.
Or worse, putting two types of rifle that aren't fielded together in units into the same pack, a la the Empress Modern Chinese. 25% wastage straight off the bat. Never did get an explanation as to why they did that.
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accounting for inflation? :o lol But yes I agree... one of the reason I downsized to squads was cost.
Sadly yes, accounting for inflation. ::)
Strangely I have paid 'over the average' for particularly good figures and thinking about it, the actual 'cost' would be the same if I had cheaper figures, but with a handful of figures left over.
It's that handful of figures left over sat there that makes the red mist come... not what I actually spent. lol
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Or worse, putting two types of rifle that aren't fielded together in units into the same pack, a la the Empress Modern Chinese. 25% wastage straight off the bat. Never did get an explanation as to why they did that.
I have a feeling that Empress just stick in a variety of stuff into the packs and have players sift through it to make what they want. They could sell you four of the same service rifle in a set, or three of the same plus another weapon as they are currently. Yes it may mean that you have one guy left over you don't have an immediate use for, but I suppose from their perspective its better marketing than sticking the random weapons in their own sets.
Personally I use most of Empress' soldiers for informal forces so I'm not too bothered if the odd guy's not carrying something standard, in fact its preferable. I guess if you're wanting to make a by the books army then it may be an issue, having to buy an additional set for every four or five, of course (which hey is more money for Empress). ...Though its hardly like non-standard gear doesn't slip into even professional armies. ;)
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Sorry for my poor english, I would like to see miniatures for a cold weather enviroment (nation doesn't matter), to game something like the fourth war, Ice Station Zebra, the Thing or a fictional North Scandinavian border clash.
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Sorry for my poor english, I would like to see miniatures for a cold weather enviroment (nation doesn't matter), to game something like the fourth war, Ice Station Zebra, the Thing or a fictional North Scandinavian border clash.
Have a look at the snow troopers on the Four A Miniatures website, they might be of use?:
http://www.fouraminiatures.com/page2.htm
You might have to copy and paste the link.
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Sorry for my poor english, I would like to see miniatures for a cold weather enviroment (nation doesn't matter), to game something like the fourth war, Ice Station Zebra, the Thing or a fictional North Scandinavian border clash.
Once upon a time there was a ice station zebra-range, regiment games i think it was that had it.
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Those Snow Troopers are perhaps a bit too sci-fi for moderns (given the laser rifles). Didn't Copplestone Castings to some with AKs at some point? I think that those are still available. I remember seeing some other ones at a show, but can't remember the manufacturer. =/
Though on this subject, and well perhaps its a bit too niche, Eastern European soldiers in Gorka suits would be interesting. Yes though, those are something you'd only see once the line was large enough or someone wanted to make Eastern European militias or what not. I suppose whilst we're in that area of the world, those Russian Spetnaz soldiers with the ballistic faceplates and AS Val rifles are something you don't see. Saying that I do think you can buy the faceplates loose, and couldn't probably get away with just giving them AKs (I just sculpted mine, but that doesn't really go for everyone).
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True, the pulse rifle style weapon certainly isn't Cold War! They're nice figures though and a near future Thing would be very doable. I thought about using them for an Aliens Vs Predator 1 style game.
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Ah right, Miniature Mojo also do some with MP5s, though they're a bit sci-fi looking too. Though what does modern winter soldier gear look like? Looking at pictures its just the regular uniforms in snow camo with a hood added and gloves (plus maybe goggles and a balaclava). Of course I may be wrong, that's just what cropped up on Google Images. Things like heavy jackets with woolen collars are more what's worn informally than being part of the standard kit, but again that's based on my limited knowledge on the subject, and indeed guys wearing a few inches of warm clothing would certainly do for militia type units of course. :)
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If they're not fighting in a really frigid climate, then ordinary ultramodern troops will do fine if they have long sleeves - just paint the unis in a winter pattern (white with a few green squiggles), the vests etc in temperate, and maybe very thin gloves (ie black/green/whatever hands).
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Those Snow Troopers are perhaps a bit too sci-fi for moderns (given the laser rifles). Didn't Copplestone Castings to some with AKs at some point? I think that those are still available. I remember seeing some other ones at a show, but can't remember the manufacturer. =/
Though on this subject, and well perhaps its a bit too niche, Eastern European soldiers in Gorka suits would be interesting. Yes though, those are something you'd only see once the line was large enough or someone wanted to make Eastern European militias or what not. I suppose whilst we're in that area of the world, those Russian Spetnaz soldiers with the ballistic faceplates and AS Val rifles are something you don't see. Saying that I do think you can buy the faceplates loose, and couldn't probably get away with just giving them AKs (I just sculpted mine, but that doesn't really go for everyone).
TAG has faceplates for their MVD, are those the ones you're thinking of?
No AS-Val tho :(
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Yeah its the TAG ones that I saw on their store. They're good-ish for all the random bits and bobs of gear, but their sculpting style is too chunky to use with more realistic lines like Empress. At least they aren't too difficult to sculpt, though those guys have different platevests than the regular soldiers too. Though the AS Vals are what you see in most images, they do use AN-94s as well, which you could probably convert a regular AK-74 to look like.
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Cold weather gear is generally standard gear with liners, which makes a slight difference in the 'bulk' of a figure (which some 28mm ranges already have anyway).
'Arctic' gear is something else, even if it's just the addition of the 'one-size-fits-no-one' white coveralls, which gives all wearers an 'over-inflated' appearance, except where their LBE and vests pull it in. Snow boots and ski boots are obviously somewhat larger than their temperate counterparts too.
In all it combines to make troops look like they suffer from microcephaly if they don't pull their hoods up.
(http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/~/media/royal%20navy%20responsive/images/news/royal%20marines/3%20cdo%20brigade/3%20cdo%20brigade/150213%20royal%20marines%20train%20in%20extreme%20arctic%20cold/ly150019012a.jpg?mh=447&mw=980&thn=0)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2765/4457238487_3769c55437.jpg)
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So this is what I have planned if I decide to go the Generic Military and Western Insurgent route, feel free to critique!
GENERIC ARMY: 16 unique infantry wearing BDU style uniforms and Chicom chest rigs (Separate Heads Below)
- Firefight (4x AK-47)
- Skirmish (4x AK-47)
- Command (Platoon Commander (AK-47), Radioman/Assistant (AK-47), Marksman (SVD), Platoon Sergeant/Rifleman (AK-47)
- Heavy weapons (PKM and Assistant Gunner, RPG, RPK)
INSURGENTS: 16 infantry poses wearing a variety of military and civilian gear (Separate Heads Below)
- Western Militia firefight (2x AK-47, 1x G3, 1x M16)
- Western Militia skirmish (2x AK-47, 1x G3, 1x M16)
- Western Militia heavy weapons (PKM and Assistant Gunner, RPG, RPK)
- Western Militia command (Commander (AK-47), Rifleman/leader (G3), Marksman (SVD), Rifleman (M16)
SEPARATE HEADS: 44 heads (Bare and Helmeted)
- Bare Heads: Middle Eastern
- Bare Heads: African
- Bare Heads: European
- Bare Heads: Asian
- Bare Heads: Face covered
- PASGT: Middle Eastern
- PASGT: African
- PASGT: European
- PASGT: Asian
- Ssh-68: Asian
- Ssh-68: Middle Eastern
- Ssh-68: European
- M1: African
I admit that I do not have any South American heads, but I from what I have seen on google, South Americans generally look like Europeans in regards to facial structure. In my opinion, at 28mm it would be pretty hard to tell the difference. The middle eastern heads will be more unique due to more prolific facial hair.
If you guys think I am missing any crucial things or something (such as weapons for the insurgents) needs to be changed, let me know. I am moving on to planning the Koreans next, then the IDF and western civilians. I see a possibility to move the RPG and RPK to the rifle packs, putting the RPG in one and the RPK in another, which would make more sense with kitting out a platoon as there would be less wastage, but then The PKM pack would be empty. Maybe put them in the rifle packs and use the heavy weapons pack to provide additional sculpts?
Winter troops are possible, but I'm not sure that the demand is high enough to do a large range of them (Maybe a couple packs down the line?). Most armies winter uniforms are not different enough from their regular uniforms, apart from hoods and a slight increase in bulk. Doing slight conversions on US figures in MOPP gear would not be far off.
Loving the conversation!
Gunnar
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Also, if anyone has knowledge of the platoon organization and equipment for South Korea, please sound off. I have been able to figure out which weapons, but the actual weapon distribution and numbers is something I am seriously struggling to find.
This is what I have for organization at the moment. The North Koreans are correct as of 1996, which I doubt has changed much. The South Koreans are based off of pictures and the assumption that they share similar organization with the US. They are nominally armed with two K11's per squad according to official releases and the plan is to have them completely replace the K2 by the 2020's.
North Korean:
Platoon Commander- T-64/68 Pistol
3 Squads consisting of 3 teams per squad
SL/TL- AK-47
RPG Gunner- RPG-7 and AK-47
Rifleman- AK-47
RPD Gunner- RPD/RPK
South Korean:
Platoon Leader- K2
Platoon Sergeant- K2
RTO- K2
Medic- K2
3 Squads consisting of 2 teams per squad
SL- K2
TL- K2
LMG- K3
Rifleman- K2
UGL- K2 w/M203
Light support Weapon- K11
And here are the potential (Very WIP!) packs:
NORTH KOREA: 16 Unique Poses
- Firefight (2x AK-47, 1x RPD/RPK, 1x RPG/AK-47)
- Skirmish (2x AK-47, 1x RPD/RPK, 1x RPG/AK-47)
- Command (Officer T-64/68, Radio man (AK-47), Marksman (SVD), Rifleman (AK-47)
- Heavy weapons (RPD/RPK, RPG, Type 73)
SOUTH KOREA: 16 Unique Poses
- Firefight (1x K2, 1x K2/M203, 1x K3, 1xK11)
- Skirmish (1x K2, 1x K2/M203, 1x K3, 1xK11)
- Command (Commander (K2), PSG (K2), Radio (K2), Medic (K2)
- Heavy weapons (K12, K3, LAW)
Thanks,
Gunnar
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I like the outcome. Berets would be a nice Addition (european for me :p ) but your options are really good as they are. Hope we will See first progress soon.
Cheers
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Generic Empress compatible troops with an Asian PASGT head option armed with AK47s would be better than anything I'm currently aware of for the VPA so I'd buy some!
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So this is what I have planned if I decide to go the Generic Military and Western Insurgent route, feel free to critique!
SEPARATE HEADS: 44 heads (Bare and Helmeted)
- Bare Heads: Middle Eastern
- Bare Heads: African
- Bare Heads: European
- Bare Heads: Asian
- Bare Heads: Face covered
- PASGT: Middle Eastern
-PASGT: African
-PASGT: European
- PASGT: Asian
- Ssh-68: Asian
- Ssh-68: Middle Eastern
- Ssh-68: European
- M1: African
I admit that I do not have any South American heads, but I from what I have seen on google, South Americans generally look like Europeans in regards to facial structure. In my opinion, at 28mm it would be pretty hard to tell the difference.
Gunnar
Maybe some heads with peaked caps or berets?
I like the generic military with the options of swapping heads to suit the region.
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Another vote here for berets and/or peaked field caps.
Were you thinking of separate heads for the North & South Koreans?
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Maybe, but the South Koreans use domestically produced weapons that are not prolific globally and the North Koreans are wearing soviet era uniforms. This makes neither of them very versatile and I know that I prefer figures with attached heads when no variation is an option. However, there are some other head options, such as winter hats for the Norks or patrol caps for the ROK.
Berets are definitely a possibility, as are boonie hats and patrol cap/ball caps.
Gunnar
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My impression is that ultramodern has a fairly high incidence of imagiNations - I know I'm not the only one reluctant to game conflicts that have just been in the news. Now, everything is grist for those, but it's even better if you can easily change heads.
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My impression is that ultramodern has a fairly high incidence of imagiNations - I know I'm not the only one reluctant to game conflicts that have just been in the news. Now, everything is grist for those, but it's even better if you can easily change heads.
This! That's exactly what I'd be using generic Asian forces for. Imagine-nations do seem to be extremely popular and will likely account for at least some of the sales of ranges such as Spectre Miniatures.
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Well, if there is no problem with separate heads, I guess yes, they will be separate heads, haha.
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Arget,
do not hold your breath, I need to ask in a roundabout way... but a friend of mine has a friend who is a ROKA army officer and I can provide the stuff. Be aware a lot of detail about the ROKA are classified. Thus I am not 100% sure to be able to get anything useful. It is easier for me to get stuff on the PLA... (oh by the way, the mix of weapons in the PLA packs from empress appears to be based on PLA insider info...)
Arrigo
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Arrigo,
If you are able to get that info, I would greatly appreciate it. I won't depend on it, but it would be awfully nice.
On another note, does anyone know the platoon organization for the IDF? My understanding is that they are pretty fluid, but are generally similar to western militaries, with possibly only one LMG and UGL per squad. This is what I have so far:
IDF:
Platoon Leader- TAR-21
Platoon Sergeant- TAR-21
Radioman- TAR-21
Medic- TAR-21
3 Squads of 9 men
SL- TAR-21
LMG- Negev
AT- MATADOR/TAR-21
UGL- TAR-21/M203
Rifleman- TAR-21
Rifleman- TAR-21
Rifleman- TAR-21
Rifleman- TAR-21
Rifleman- TAR-21
IDF: 16 Unique Poses
- Firefight (2x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev)
- Skirmish (2x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev)
- Patrol (3x TAR-21, 1x MATADOR) (POSSIBLE)
- Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Radio (TAR-21), Medic (TAR-21)
- Heavy weapons (FN MAG, MATADOR, Unknown Marksman Rifle (potentially M24 or HTR 2000)
The pack organization leaves a bit to be desired, but I want to get at least two poses of the UGL and Negev. I think the Patrol pack would be nice, but I've been told that most production molds are sixteen figures, which makes me hesitate adding another pack. Let me know what you think.
Any ideas, critiques, or info would be appreciated!
Gunnar
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It all sounds great. I'd definitely buy some of the south Koreans and the generic army and insurgents.
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I like what I am seeing so far.
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As the Israelis now have a 7.62mm version of the Negev (the 'Maximi' rather than the 'Minimi'), the FN-Mag seems superfluous with a set of figures with up-to-the-minute armaments otherwise. In a reserve unit with M4s would be better for that I think.
I don't know if it's changed, but back in 2005 an Israeli fire team 'usually' had one anti-tank weapon (in a squad one team often had an RPG-7 and the other a B-300), besides the SAW. UGLs do seem to have been one per fire team, or at least one per squad.
Fire teams appear to vary between four and five men depending on unit, although 'squads' of up to twelve can be seen on some photos. I suspect the variation is due to vehicle crews being with the squad for infantry operations/exercises, when in conventional combat they would obviously be in the vehicle.
Each Israeli APC used to carry what we now call a DMR (along with a Gill ATGW firing post and missiles), but the role of 'squad sniper' was introduced in the late 1990s and now one guy usually carries a DMR. The rifles mentioned are a DMR version of the Tavor (STAR-21), the SR-25 (7.62mm) and of course the M16A2, all of which have bipods. The role combines sharpshooter with assault rifleman, so bolt-action weapons like the M24 or the Barak (HTR-2000) are more probably confined to actual dedicated sniper teams.
Israeli infantrymen are trained to have two squad roles in combat, rifleman being the principal one and everyone apart from the SAW gunner carries a rifle. While a guy firing a Matador might be nice (in a weapons pack), I suspect a rifleman carrying one slung might be more serviceable, or better yet, one (and/or an RPG if they are still used) which can be added to a rifleman figure as required. One guy in a squad is also still often seen with a folding stretcher attached to his LBE on infantry ops.
The old PRC-77 man-pack radios were phased out of the regulars before 2011 and even most reserve units now have PRC-624 and 710 units, which fit into a pouch on the LBE. Squad and team leaders have the same headsets you would expect to see in the U.S. Army. This means that a 'radio operator figure' is pretty redundant in a unit armed with Tavors.
The actual organisation of a platoon I don't know, but I gather that the 'HQ element' is also organised as a squad, effectively giving four squads to a platoon, with two teams to a squad. If four packs of four is a single mould's worth of figures, this effectively gives you the option to do four different fire teams. Mixing and matching of individual packs by the customer cuts down on the 'samey' appearance of each squad and of course is very efficient in terms of packs sold from a mould (2 of each figure is a platoon).
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I've just spotted this thread and thought I'd add my tuppence worth!
Regarding the projected packs of 'western militia' wouldn't it be better to make a pack with G3, a pack with M-16, and 2 packs with AKs given people's expressed preferences for common weapons in a 'unit'? Just a thought!
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i'm agree with that !
Don't forget the french FAMAS
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My idea behind the insurgent weapons is that the most likely weapon for most insurgents around the world will be the AKM. The G3 and M16 are possible in fewer numbers all over the world as well. I don't feel that the FAMAS is common enough outside of France and her former colonies to be included in a generic pack. The G3 is one of the most prolific weapons in the Middle East and Africa and the M16 or its clones are available all over the world in pretty large numbers. The reason I have them mixed in is that I don't think they are prolific enough to warrant their own packs when compared to the AKM. Also, insurgents tend to be a pretty rag tag bunch. If anyone has evidence to refute this, please let me know!
I will do some more work on the IDF and bring a second proposal range soon!
Gunnar
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How does this look for the IDF?
IDF: 20 Unique Poses
- Firefight (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Skirmish (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Patrol (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Marksman (SR-25), Medic (TAR-21)
As of right now, I am leaning towards the Western Insurgents and Generic Military with the Koreans and IDF close behind as potential future ranges. However, if the demand for the IDF and Koreans increases, I may consider subbing out the generic military for the IDF.
Let me know what you think!
Gunnar
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Wouldn't doing a range nobody else does first be better? IIRC Empress do Western Insurgents already, and you can easily use generic criminal models as those too, or would yours look entirely different from those?
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(oh by the way, the mix of weapons in the PLA packs from empress appears to be based on PLA insider info...)
This ;)
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I'd definitely buy some of the Koreans and the generic army, too.
Is there a chance for some really "unusual" poses like sentries, high ranking officers with secret documents or important members of the political party, drivers, soldiers laying/detecting mines, soldiers maintaining/refueling vehicles or parachuting especially a miniature still hanging on the parachute?
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Wouldn't doing a range nobody else does first be better? IIRC Empress do Western Insurgents already, and you can easily use generic criminal models as those too, or would yours look entirely different from those?
Empress's insurgents are much more middle eastern. They look much more like Fedayeen or ISIS fighters than true western. They ahve some wearing jeans or sweaters, but most of them have a distinct Middle Eastern or Chechen feel with head scarves or Kamees. Mine would look much more like Europeans or Americans, but the heads will be interchangeable to allow them to be used for any type of insurgency where people wear distinctly western style clothes. Pretty much if the guys next door threw on some load bearing equipment and grabbed an AKM is the look that I'm going for.
Gunnar
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I'd definitely buy some of the Koreans and the generic army, too.
Is there a chance for some really "unusual" poses like sentries, high ranking officers with secret documents or important members of the political party, drivers, soldiers laying/detecting mines, soldiers maintaining/refueling vehicles or parachuting especially a miniature still hanging on the parachute?
Sentry style figures are possible (guys walking around carrying weapons, but the rest are a little out of scope for my initial ranges.
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Arget8, where are you based? I only ask as I was wondering about your market accessibility. For example, if you are US based I'd potentially be concerned about shipping to the UK, and vice versa for those N American based. The poor Antipodeans largely seem to bear the worst of the shipping costs regardless. That's not to say I wouldn't though, as I recently had an excellent experience ordering directly to Crossover Miniatures. It would, however, likely attract a larger audience if you had a retailer or dustributor in other areas. For example Minibits in the UK are the regular stockists of Crossover and I've followed up my big order to the States with smaller orders to Minibits.
I just figured it's more likely to bring your figures to a wider audience in terms if accessibilitynand associated sales. I really think you might just plug a gap in the moderns market with your ideas, especially the generic troops with head options so it would be a shame for it not to pay off.
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I am planning on finding US and UK distributors for sure, possibly even one in Oz. I'm based in the US and have been discussing things with a potential distributor. However, as this project is still in the brainstorming/planning phase, there is plenty of time to sort things out.
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How does this look for the IDF?
IDF: 20 Unique Poses
- Firefight (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Skirmish (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Patrol (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
- Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Marksman (SR-25), Medic (TAR-21)
I wouldn't like to offer a definitive opinion... but I might swap out one guy in one pack with a Matador, for one marksman, giving you two of each overall. Otherwise it seems to be a good mix.
On a seperate note... I've always wondered why nobody has modelled their unsurgents on something like the 'Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines', or the bad guys in the movie 'Red State'. I would think you couldn't get any more irregular-looking irregulars and dressed for a more temperate climate than the ME too.
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What I'm thinking with this organization for the IDF packs is that people will buy two of the troop packs and the command pack for each squad. What this will provide is:
Firefight (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Skirmish (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Marksman (SR-25), Medic (TAR-21)
Patrol (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Skirmish (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Marksman (SR-25), Medic (TAR-21)
Patrol (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Firefight (1x TAR-21, 1x TAR-21 w/UGL, 1x Negev, 1x TAR-21 w/MATADOR)
Command (Commander (TAR-21), PSG (TAR-21), Marksman (SR-25), Medic (TAR-21)
What this will do is provide each squad with
3x TAR-21
2x TAR-21 w/UGL
2x Negev
2x MATADOR
1x TAR-21 (Medic)
1x Marksman
This will convert to squads as such
1x TAR-21 (Squad Leader)
1x TAR-21
1x TAR-21 w/UGL
1x Negev
1x MATADOR
1x Medic
1x TAR-21
1x TAR-21 w/UGL
1x Negev
1x MATADOR
1x Marksman
This will leave one extra command rifle from each squad. However at least one, if not two will be used for the platoon commander and platoon sergeant. This will only officially leave you with one extra rifleman. However, these teams are five men strong, meaning that they are likely paper strength. The rifleman in each squad could be removed or anyone else could be, I suppose. The idea is to provide the least wastage, which I think has been done here as there is only one left over figure based on paper strengths. Also, the extra rifleman could be added to the squad if you want to run the big squads that are apparently possible.
What do you guys think?
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I dont like duplicate figures in 28mm so i would only buy 1 pack of each.
But looks good 8)
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I dont like duplicate figures in 28mm so i would only buy 1 pack of each.
But looks good 8)
If this were the IDF as planned you would get a total of one squad and an understrength fire team. If I do them I will do them with separate heads with their strange helmet covers and netted helmets, which would give them a little more variation.
On another note, I've been keeping a very basic tally of what people are requesting. This is what people clamor for:
Koreans- 7
Civilians- 6
IDF- 10
JDF- 4
Western Insurgents- 7
NATO countries- 3
Female Soldiers- 2
Generic 2nd and 3rd world (Middle East, Africa, South America, SE Asia)- 13
South Africa- 1
France- 4
Germany- 3
Canada- 5
Right now, the generic army is ahead by a pretty good margin with the IDF and Western insurgents up next. I am considering doing one range at a time to make the project more manageable time and money-wise. If anyone hasn't weighed in yet, please do so now as I am starting to cut this list down at the end of the week. I may make a poll later as well once it is cut down to four or five.
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Definitely like the sound of all of this!
Has a sculptor been ID'd yet?
And I'd really like to see sprues of the weapons made available - M16's, AKs etc are fairly common out there, but G3's and Tavors are pretty rare! Pretty please? :) ;D
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I don't know if it shows up for you, but I can add a poll to this thread if you wish? Just let me know if/what/when and I'll be happy to do it. :)
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That would be great, thanks. I'll let you know when I want to start it.
I have not nailed down who will be sculpting, but it is in the works. I'll probably be going with a digital sculptor, but nothing is set in stone yet.
As to separate weapons, it is possible, but unlikely to happen upfront.
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Just an FYI, I have 28mm IDF in the works, and there are Stan Johansen's new IDF too.
I don't want to derail your thread with my own stuff but equally just thought I'd give you a heads up. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=392701 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=392701) & http://mikebravominiatures.blogspot.co.uk/. I'll have 'generics' but they'll be geared more to 70s and 80s I suspect. You're going with a more ultra modern look I think? (I hope, as I've deliberately not planned modern Syrians etc)
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It comes up with 'topic not found ' on TMP, for me at least.
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Same here, but when I found it the address was in fact: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=392701
I'm guessing the ; was the problem.
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If someone else is already enroute to releasing modern IDF then would that make the generic troops with multi head options the most logical product to develop?
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Just an FYI, I have 28mm IDF in the works, and there are Stan Johansen's new IDF too.
I don't want to derail your thread with my own stuff but equally just thought I'd give you a heads up. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=392701; http://mikebravominiatures.blogspot.co.uk/. I'll have 'generics' but they'll be geared more to 70s and 80s I suspect. You're going with a more ultra modern look I think? (I hope, as I've deliberately not planned modern Syrians etc)
My generics should allow for troops from the 80's until everyone in the world stops wearing Chicom rigs and BDUs. The plan is to make them suitable for the early eighties onward. Pretty much from the point when cargo pockets were put on combat trousers to the near future. I want to create them as generic as possible so they have the widest versatility. The eventual plan is to create generic troops with Syrian/Soviet/PASGT style body armor, but men without armor are the most versatile with second and third world militaries.
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Thanks Jim. Type in haste, repent at leisure...
Noted Argent, sounds like we'll only have a very slight overlap then. Shame you're not UK based, would've been good to collaborate. Enjoy the commissioning process, my wife is grumpy at the amount of time it's taking up!
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Mhmm...
not spoil anyone hopes, but looking around I have felt the generic troop even with options, less attractive, especially if compared to national ranges and especially if they are the first thing coming out from a new company. Do not misunderstand me, but from chat I have had in the end they appears to be poor sellers, notwithstanding their usefulness, or comments on various forums. My own to pennies on the topic is that, while they are useful to people like us, they lack the attraction to the slightly larger crowd of buyers; maybe it is just a consequence of "who are they?" and the fact that you have to put your own imprint on them rather than just being spoon fed (maybe I am just projecting student attitudes around :D ).
White Mike Bravo doing IDF, I would suggest to go for the Koreans and as soon as possible for the generics to have at least a trademark range.
Of course I am not putting money on the plan so I am not risking anything with my suggestions... lol so take it 'Cum Grano Salis'.
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Well I am still more interested in IDF, South and north Koreans then I am in Generics.
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So, the suggestions to date seem to run to.
South Koreans, for whom nobody makes any opposition.
IDF, for whom nobody makes any opposition (albeit Eureka have just released some new Iraqi civilians, some of which could be re-purposed as Palestinian civilians) and for whom it would appear two new ranges are either on the market or about to emerge.
A number of random suggestions for ranges that already exist, often in multiple examples like Germans, French, Australians, Japanese etc,
Generic troops for all kinds of potential opposition to existing ranges but, as we are authoritatively told, won't sell or rather won't sell beyond the current market for people who collect or game modern warfare . That implies a market beyond the existing one for the other suggestions. I won't presume to guess as to who or where that might be. Others more knowledgeable than me will surely comment.
Right, since we have reached the traditional outcome of such threads, I shall, apropos of nothing, request a range of modern Brazilian Army figures armed with the new IA-2 and Minimis. I shall want head variants in both kevlar helmets and in bush hats. :D
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[quote author=carlos marighela link=topic=80488.msg994997#msg994997
Right, since we have reached the traditional outcome of such threads, I shall, apropos of nothing, request a range of modern Brazilian Army figures armed with the new IA-2 and Minimis. I shall want head variants in both kevlar helmets and in bush hats. :D
[/quote] well if that's the run of it, I would also like some Venezuelans, Colombians, and Mexican troops too. :p
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[quote author=carlos marighela link=topic=80488.msg994997#msg994997
Right, since we have reached the traditional outcome of such threads, I shall, apropos of nothing, request a range of modern Brazilian Army figures armed with the new IA-2 and Minimis. I shall want head variants in both kevlar helmets and in bush hats. :D
well if that's the run of it, I would also like some Venezuelans, Colombians, and Mexican troops too. :p
Venezuelans? Chaps in BDUs, Kevlar pots, chest rigs and AKs? Nah, can't see a market for figures like that. ;)
In their absence, the TAG Vietnam Special Forces with AKs will make workable proxies.
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Venezuelans? Chaps in BDUs, Kevlar pots, chest rigs and AKs? Nah, can't see a market for figures like that. ;)
In their absence, the TAG Vietnam Special Forces with AKs will make workable proxies.
Exactly what I was think lol
And I can use my Emprises ultra modern Russians for the best Equipped units, trainers, etc..
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And there, chaps, is why its bloomin' hard to get a line off the ground :)
If we take African Union/peacekeeper type troops, you could do a generic figure in kevlar, KPOT and so on, and if you want them to be Ugandans and their AKMs that could work... but if you want them to be Zimbabweans with their AKMs well the cut of the uniform is slightly different but more glaringly they are trained to hold the sodding rifle in a different way... and good luck trying to pass them off as Kenyans with their G3s held in yet another completely different style. Head and weapon/arm swaps as options will get you so far, but each army has a very different 'look and feel' that comes more from how they hold themselves than their uniform/weapon (in my fussy opinion).
And what's the story you sell to the customer to make them buy a generic pack? Particularly when wargamers are frugal beasts and can make do by using US special forces as Venezuelans? How do you sell using the same figures as Opfor to themselves, when the differences would just be heads & guns & paint job?
I threw my hands up in defeat trying to work that out so I'm just plumping for specific nations - so (for example) I can get behind and sell a story around Syrians as opfor for the IDF, and if you think with a head swap they'd pass for someone else, great. My 'generic African Union' will actually just be Ugandans, because they're active buggers and I can tell you about their forays into Somalia, South Sudan and DRC etc (and what figures work for their enemies) to try to make you buy them. If they happen to pass for Venezuelans, great.
I have the same beef with generic insurgents - the ones put out by Empress and Spectre are lovely, and I have plenty, but I look at them, and I look at pictures from current conflicts, and to my eye they just don't look like any particular set of insurgents. But they're the only game in town for now, and they're close enough for Government work, so...
All that said, I think a generic line could work, but in plastic where you can have all the different separate arms and weapons and torsos and bits of webbing to add to it, and people can customize to their hearts content. Whoever can pony up the £30k to do it would have a very marketable (if fiddly) box set.
YMMV but in metal/resin I think you just have to pick a conflict and go to town on that - creating the demand through good sculpts and supporting material. eg. Who knew they needed PLA before Empress and their Kickstarter? (OK, it was the USMC and Aussies that carried that, but...)
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YMMV but in metal/resin I think you just have to pick a conflict and go to town on that - creating the demand through good sculpts and supporting material. eg. Who knew they needed PLA before Empress and their Kickstarter? (OK, it was the USMC and Aussies that carried that, but...)
... I have to agree. The more imaginative folk will soon work out what can be used as something else. Bring out a generic force and a lot of people will be looking in an Atlas for 'Generica'.
Selling an imaginary conflict is not so difficult... it's a common train of thought that China and the U.S./SEATO will clash at some point (although I suspect not), there are those who have put forward a U.S. versus Mexico scenario (or previously a U.S. versus Venezuela/Cuba one). Oddly there are many who would have ridiculed you for suggesting that in future Britain would fight Argentina over the Falklands, till it actually happened.
If I wanted to promote a 'generic' range, I would dress it up as something else - 'Red Dawn' is a pretty ridiculous concept, yet the amount of people who would subscribe to that is probably considerable. Choose your invader (Cubans, Venezuelans, PLA, North Korea, the Govmint, all of them, aliens, whatever) and your 'generic' range becomes the 'resistance'. Those of you who remember the TV show 'Jericho' might even want to pit militia against militia in a balkanized U.S.A. - The point is that if you give the range a name, it will probably do far better than merely labelling them 'generic', which is the same as calling them 'nothing in particular'.
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Indeedy. It's just the marketing. If you promote them as Syrians/ Venezuelans/ Vietamese/ whatever that just happen to be REALLY USEFUL as [insert army here]. I reckon you will have no problem selling them.
If it was me, I'd be tempted to have fun with it and do an advertising rip of off of supermarket no-name brand goods. Brand X modern troopers, available in a variety of flavours.
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I'd still buy in to a generic range if it allowed me to field a decent enough VPA force for my South East Asia imagi-nation. It's a fair point about the marketing side of things, I would like figures that I can use for an idea I already have. You need to be able to sell customers figures for an idea you give them if you want to increase sales beyond people like us LAFers!
Arlequin's 'hook' idea is a good one.
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Arlequin's 'hook' idea is a good one.
It will never catch on.....
;)
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Oddly there are many who would have ridiculed you for suggesting that in future Britain would fight Argentina over the Falklands, till it actually happened.
Well certainly John Nott would have ridiculed you... I think it was in January/February 1982 when Julian Thompson broached the idea lol but well you do not have to have a war... you just park the task foroce around west Falklands, build a runway for F4M and then set a blockade (no it is not a joke, Sandy Woodward came to Julian Thompson with such an idea... and then you have the Rio Grande raid...)
Now back to ranges... I tend to agree with Delta Bravo. Just do a real force there will be less problems. I say ROKA and KPA. The combination is quite useful not only you have force A and B in a set, but they fit well with USA/USMC, Australia, Russians, PLA ranges already out. In a pinch they can be used for Red Dawn (I think the remake was stupid, I think the people who clamour for doing it in miniature are very few... but well you cater even to them).
Look this way, I prefer to have a real army and then, if really necessary proxy them for some "generic force" than viceversa.
Also if you do KPA...
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4MqTfB7wUtc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Arlequin: yes you can have US militia vs US militia... but then you need an A-10 Strike to keep them apart!
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Oddly the remake of Red Dawn was only changed to 'North Korea' partway through filming, it was meant to be the Chinese up to that point. Personally I'd go for the original, but that's off-topic.
;)
It will never catch on.....
;)
lol
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I have actually been considering doing a Red Dawn type range where both the generic troops and insurgents will be set up for a 1980's-present insurgent movement in either America, the Middle East, or Europe. Maybe writing up a source book for it. If I did USA, it would make more sense to have M16's or the like (Until the arms started getting smuggled in) while Europe and the Middle East would be more likely to have AK's. Just some thoughts.
I am taking everything people are saying into consideration, so even if I don't respond to you directly, I am listening.
I can see where you guys are coming from. Maybe Koreans or IDF would be the better option.
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I wouldn't be too fickle about the weapons. While the AR-15 is still the most sold semi-auto rifle in the U.S., there are large numbers of AK-47/AKM/AKMS in private hands too. You could pretty much justify the ownership of virtually any rifle made since 1940 in fact.
Weapons ownership in Europe is very restricted and until they capture weapons, bolt-action hunting rifles are the most likely common weapon and then few and far between.
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Right now, I am leaning towards KPA and ROKA. I've been looking at pictures of KPA uniforms and ROKA uniforms and I feel that they could both be relatively versatile if separate heads were provided. The KPA could double as the generic army with Chicom webbing and AKMs while the South Koreans, if digitally sculpted, could be used as the base for a generic 1st/2nd world army. The basic uniforms and poses could be kept and the equipment swapped out. All it would take to repurpose the KPA is to make separate heads.
If anyone has pictures of the KPA or ROKA that would provide good evidence to support or refute this idea, please put them here, as long as they don't violate forum rules. Mainly I'm looking for KPA wearing somewhat BDU styled uniforms or Chicom rigs and ROKA wearing their most common gear. They seem to wear all manner of gear. I've seen pictures of them wearing modern ballistic vests with molle gear, PASGT vests with 1990's era LBE, and no vest. My assumption is that the front line forces wear the best gear while the reserve forces wear the older stuff, but I honestly have no idea.
Let me know what you guys think.
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I will see what I can dig up...Would also like to see modern Indian troops too. lol
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Sounds good to me - just make sure to include a KPA head sprue with the giant saucer hats. lol
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Also, at a pinch, the South Koreans could be used as Indians as the K2 looks kinda like the INSAS. The K3 and the INSAS lmg are different. India is also a possible future range, but obviously not an initial range, based on the little interest in them as shown here.
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Also, at a pinch, the South Koreans could be used as Indians as the K2 looks kinda like the INSAS. The K3 and the INSAS lmg are different. India is also a possible future range, but obviously not an initial range, based on the little interest in them as shown here.
Of course. Still looking into a renewed hostilities between the two Koreas. It will allow me to use my Chines and modern US figs in a simi plausible manner.
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Def North and South Koreans or some Taiwanese
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Right now, I am leaning towards KPA and ROKA. I've been looking at pictures of KPA uniforms and ROKA uniforms and I feel that they could both be relatively versatile if separate heads were provided. The KPA could double as the generic army with Chicom webbing and AKMs while the South Koreans, if digitally sculpted, could be used as the base for a generic 1st/2nd world army. The basic uniforms and poses could be kept and the equipment swapped out. All it would take to repurpose the KPA is to make separate heads.
If anyone has pictures of the KPA or ROKA that would provide good evidence to support or refute this idea, please put them here, as long as they don't violate forum rules. Mainly I'm looking for KPA wearing somewhat BDU styled uniforms or Chicom rigs and ROKA wearing their most common gear. They seem to wear all manner of gear. I've seen pictures of them wearing modern ballistic vests with molle gear, PASGT vests with 1990's era LBE, and no vest. My assumption is that the front line forces wear the best gear while the reserve forces wear the older stuff, but I honestly have no idea.
Let me know what you guys think.
Some pictures of standard North Korean infantry.
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I was a little sick in my mouth there seeing how outdated all that NK gear is. Damn. 0.0
Chrome plated AK with camo's always a good choice too. :D
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Ok folks, at Gunnar's (arget8) request, a poll has been added for this topic.
It is restricted to a single choice out of four, but with the option of changing your vote should you wish.
:)
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I was a little sick in my mouth there seeing how outdated all that NK gear is. Damn. 0.0
Chrome plated AK with camo's always a good choice too. :D
Blingtastic! He obviously has a second job, moonlighting as a Mexican drug lord.
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Most 1st Sergeants like to display some degree of individuality... I guess they would frown upon a 'Smokie the Bear' hat... clearly he's looking out of shot at the Master-Chief's gold-plated version.
With the camo, you'd just assume someone had dropped a chrome-plated AK until he opened fire. ;)
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Those North Korean's look like "just after WW2 up to mid-1980s" Russian uniforms with AK47s.
I am sure that they would be good for various Cold War Scenarios and could double as any Warpac infantry from those times.
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Honestly from looking at those pics. The north Korean uniform seems to be a throw back to the cold war, as stated above. Kind of interesting that the style has not updated in the hermit kingdom at all.
I mean there are a few in cammo here and there but it doesn't seem to be a priority. Or they just save these uniforms for photo ops. :p
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From what I have read the standard soldiers in north korea are barely fed anymore and resort to stealing from the populace, so it would be incredibly doubtful that 95% would get any updated uniforms or equipment seeing as they are basically there to keep the population under control for the "dear leader".
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Honestly from looking at those pics. The north Korean uniform seems to be a throw back to the cold war, as stated above. Kind of interesting that the style has not updated in the hermit kingdom at all.
I mean there are a few in cammo here and there but it doesn't seem to be a priority. Or they just save these uniforms for photo ops. :p
In all honesty, I think that the vast majority of the North Koreans wear the same style uniforms and carry the same weapons that they did forty years ago. Most likely only elite units will wear more modern uniforms like BDU's. 1950's-1970's Soviets or Chinese would be a decent substitute.
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Some recentish videos from north korea showing their "modern" uniforms and equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB50CJDcg84
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYrCei02TaI
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I think in the second video they are Red guards or whatever they are called (need to look at Minkyeong stuff), not regular army. From my sources, camo uniform are much more widespread than pictures shown. Usually we see the people guarding the Panmunjom JSA that tend to have the KPA equivalent of class A uniform with basic webbing, and a lot of artillery and AAA chaps. Often coastal gunners rather then line gunners (oh by the way in video number 1 you can spot ZiS guns!).
If you look closely there are very little images or regular armor, mech, and light infantry units. You got some glimpses at the big parades, but again uniform are often tailored to the image that is presented, with a lot of link to the traditional propaganda iconography.
Also a lot of what we known about DPRK is based on what defectors told us and they are often unreliable (they tend to play our own perception, often aggrandizing their roles in the DPRK society, and also their perceived sufferance). But there are some tidbits that are interesting:
(http://i.bullfax.com/imgs/e87dfc550b9d74a01411ccad93d7c4ab3498a143.jpg) KPA soldiers at the JSA, note the new PLA early style kevlar.
Another thing is that, according to several ROK MoD reports, the current BDU is extremely similar to the old woodland pattern, and designed to increase confusion, and this was one of the reason why the ROKA switched to the new camo. The few times I have seen the fat leader with some sort of regular line units they seems to have a camouflage unifrom very close to Flora (Russian) and old ERDL:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4MqTfB7wUtc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Also think a bit, if your are just doing show training how much stuff do you carry with you?
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Knowing most failing states propaganda as much "new" equipment as possible just to show the world they have got it, even if there only enough to equip a few squads for the tv screen in reality.
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Some recentish videos from north korea showing their "modern" uniforms and equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB50CJDcg84
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYrCei02TaI
Way more propaganda then I was prepared for this early in the morning. lol
But I agree with Arrigos post. Lots of the guys in the videos are pretty old, so guessing 2nd or 3rd line units.
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Well guys, based on the results of the poll Generic Military and Western Insurgents are the winners!
I expected as such as they seem to be the biggest potential range with versatility between the 80's until near future. The insurgents will likely be the first range that I create with the Generics just behind, despite their success winning the poll as Mike Bravo Miniatures seems to have beaten me to the punch on relatively generic Africans. As of right now though, the plan is to kickstart both ranges with four packs each.
However, it is likely that I will start with the insurgents and have the generics as a stretch goal. Also, the generic military is not set in stone for how they will be created. I am considering doing what Eureka did with their SWAT figures and having separate torsos and legs as well. This could allow for even more diversity and allow them to be used for even better equipped nations. I am thinking that there could be several styles of torso in the long run, ChiCom rigs, Syrian style kevlar vests, and maybe a couple different NATO variants such as Poland and the Baltics.
What do you guys think?
Gunnar
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Well,
I am out. Not interested either in western insurgents or generics. Also I do not like too much metal multiparts... best wishes for your endeavor and hopefully you will be able to propose real ranges soon. But you know... you really want to do ROKA and KPA first... lol
Arrigo
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I would have to see the insergent concepts before I could say yeah or nay to the idea of them. If any thing unless they are a civilian doing a quick raid seem to adapt military kit very quickly.
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They will be wearing a mish mash of civilian clothes with military uniforms. Think t-shirts, hoodies, and oxford shirts with uniform pants and jeans. Most will not be wearing body armor, but a few might.
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Also, I have been doing some talking with some other people and doing the separate torsos may not really be an option for the quality of figure that I am looking to produce. I would like to have them more dynamically posed than metal separate torsos will allow. That being said, what is the general consensus for what equipment the soldiers should carry? I am starting to lean towards Syrian style kevlar vests, but I have not ruled out the Chicom rigs. Weapons are still going to be of the AK family and the separate heads are still planned.
Let me know what you guys think!
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Seperate heads can work.
Empress do this very well on several of their mordern ranges (British Army, US Army; USMC, Australians and Russians)
Seperate arms and torsos can be a pain and would discourage many People from buying.
Mick
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That's what I've seen and been told. I think that I will scrap the separate torsos and just stick with separate heads.
Any opinion on whether they should be with or without armor? Mike Bravo is producing their Ugandans, which have vests, but I want to know what you guys think.
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I'd guess without body armour might make them a bit more suitable for some of the nations that have been mentioned, no?
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Without body armour, it expands their usefulness by twenty or thirty years.
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I think that without vests would also be best. Now what about the rigging? Should I stick with the Chicom rig or go with ALICE/Cold War US style load bearing equipment?
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Damn, I was hoping you'd do Syrian vests to save me doing them! lol
I know you're going for generics but I'd suggest picking a country/group that happens to wear something approaching what you produce so that you can build around it. Makes it easier to find the reference material, gives you more of a narrative, and avoids your guys being a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none. Sounds like there's a push on from Empress/UFM for late cold war so something that broadly fits in with that might work, or conversely maybe it's something to avoid (eg I'm pulling my BAOR plans and plotting something else).
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Part of the reason I am questioning whether to use the rigs or go for another US style is that currently us style rigs (ALICE type) are very prolific in africa, but the Chicom rigs are more useful for Soviet supplied nations during the Cold War.
Does anyone know if there are plans for 1980's US in the works to complement UFM and Empress?
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Mike Bravo seem to have beat you to the punch on the 80s us also.
I will say that I have been able to fit AK mags in my old LBE ammo pouches, along with my Alice vest pouches too.
I guess to just figure out if you want your western insurgents to be armed with. Do you want every one have AKs? Or do you want them to have raided the local armory in a later day reenactment of bastille day with western European weapons. (AUGS, FAMAS, SA80s, M16 family of kit, FALs, G3s, G36, GPMGs, MG3s..etc) Maybe start with a group with Aks, and then work on making at least one group each armed with one of the above ranges.
That being said don't forget grandpas old hunting shotgun or rifle hidden in the attic. I am sure there are plenty of old vintage bolt-action rifles still floating about, the hard thing with them is getting ammo now. So mostly used by local groups or until the fighter can get some thing better.
So maybe a pack with old rifles and shotguns.
for support, a RPG, Carl gustav and a mortar team. done. ok maybe a Recoilless rifle would be cool
Group armed with only pistols. (not your main line fighters, for early insurgencies, infiltrates, saboteurs, support crew at rebel HQ, under cover law enforcement or criminal thugs)
Command group is easy, just have a guy with a Radio or Cell phone calling out orders. Have one runner, a medic in partial scabs and field jacket. And a guy taking photos or cell phone videos for propaganda.
Could maybe even get away with a few groups of rock/break/Molotov cocktail throwing folks.
And finally suggestion few folks, men and women that have the same look of the insurgents with out weapons visible, just hoody, and hands in pockets going their way. maybe a back pack or satchel. Will work great for counter insurgency games where you are trying to figure out who is armed, who is not. What's that guys got in his pack? Work cloths? Laptop? pipe bomb and an uzi?
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All great suggestions, my good commissar. I am currently in the process of planning and searching for a sculptor as well as building funds for test sculpts, which is why I have been quiet here.
For everybody that wants insurgents in western clothes or generic military, It would be greatly appreciated if you followed Commissar Moody's example and give suggestions on weapons and equipment. I want to know if people are more interested in a well armed insurgency ala American militia or more like the initial Syrian rebels which were just a bunch of guys who had grabbed AK's.
For the generic military, I am leaning towards just making them Syrians, which could also double for Iranians as they share similar equipment. What do you guys think?
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Israelis are another big one as I can't believe that they haven't been done in 28mm yet.
Mongrel used to do IDF, Stan Johansen do IDF old and modern but I can't imagine they're popular.
(http://www.stanjohansenminiatures.com/images/IDF/Jihad%2042%20IDF%20set%202.jpg)
(http://www.stanjohansenminiatures.com/images/IDF/IDF%20set%203.jpg)
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Mike Bravo is currently working on the IDF, so I decided that I would focus on my original plan of western insurgents and generic military.
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Mongrel used to do IDF, Stan Johansen do IDF old and modern but I can't imagine they're popular.
(http://www.stanjohansenminiatures.com/images/IDF/Jihad%2042%20IDF%20set%202.jpg)
(http://www.stanjohansenminiatures.com/images/IDF/IDF%20set%203.jpg)
Ah the elite Israeli Can-Can dance troupe. The Folies Bergère in Tel Aviv.
Stan Johansen has a particular talent. Not quite sure what it is but I'm happy to eliminate sculpting from the list.
I'd be interested to know just how popular the IDF is as a gaming subject post 1973. The Mongrel range were nice sculpts but with a couple of exceptions I've seen little evidence of them being used for gaming, Doc Mercury's blog is about the only thing that comes to mind.
I suppose we'll know when Mike Bravos range comes out.
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Yeah not to be rude, but I am not impressed with those figs.
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lol
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I'd be interested to know just how popular the IDF is as a gaming subject post 1973.
You and me both lol
To be honest it will be a hard sell for the current era stuff because of politics (which closes a lot of doors for getting publicity in a way that identical gaming involving other nations wouldn't) but we'll see. It'll probably come down to how much eye candy we can put together and working with the vehicle manufacturers to give people viable options. Probably a lot of effort that would be more lucrative if directed elsewhere but oh well.
Bizarrely it's not the most niche of subjects I have planned!
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Well if nothing else, if I ever get the money thing figured out I do plan on picking some modern IDF up.
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Bringing back the dead for a quick question on something.
I've been able to get some money together in order to commission a few sculpts as a proof of concept on my range and I have one last question before I send the official request of to the sculptor. The range is going to be the Syrian army as of a couple years ago when it was actually equipped properly, which means ballistic vests, PASGT style helmets, and Russian weapons. They should also be able to serve as several different nations as they are suitably generic
The question for you guys is: Should I go with AKM's to make them more versatile or should I go with AKMS' to make them more accurate? I've done some looking and it seems that the regular AKM is slightly more prevalent.
I would like to get back to the sculptor in a couple hours, so if you have an opinion, please speak up!
Gunnar
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I would go with AKMs.
On the table how many players would notice or really care.
My two cents.
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Yup that's the way I would go too
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AKMs work for me
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AKMs are good.
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I'll be the contrarian and say AKMS if they would be more accurate. My logic is that if you're doing Syrians, make them Syrians, and if people are willing to use Syrians as someone else then they'll overlook the weapon as well as the uniform details or whatver else isn't quite right.
Otherwise you have Syrians that aren't really Syrians, and aren't really anything else.
(And if you're anything like me, it'll nag away at you like our 'VDV' are nagging away at me with the wrong AK stock)
But yay, Syrians, should do well. Good luck!