Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Frostgrave => Topic started by: nozza_uk on July 29, 2015, 04:38:27 PM
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We were playing Frostgrave the other night and someone jokingly called an apprentice a Padawan. This then led to a discussion about using Frostgrave for Star Wars.
Replace the Wizard/Apprentice dynamic with a Jedi/Padawan or Sith/Apprentice and it's not so far fetched.
Having a quick browse through the spell book identified spells that could simulate 'Force' powers. Using Chronomancer as the wizard school, we got this list.
Chronomancer - Petrify, Time Store, Fast Act
Elementist - Elemental Bolt (Force lightning?)
Sigilist - Push
Soothsayer - Mind Control
Summoner - Leap
And one other.
Ideally we would like Enchanter - Telekinesis in the mix but the Enchanter school is opposed to the Chronomancer school. For the Sith/Darkside, we looked at adding Necromancer - Strike Dead (Vader choke anyone?).
For warbands:
Clone Wars era
Jedi & Padawan (200 gc),
Use Ranger profile for Clone Commander (100 gc),
Use Tracker profile for Clone Troopers - 2 (@ 80 gc each),
Use Thief profile for a droid - 2 (@ 20 gc each).
Sith Lord & Apprentice (200 gc)
Use Archer profile for Battle Droids - 6 (@ 50 gc each) in warband.
Original Trilogy
Jedi & Padawan (200 gc).
Got some thoughts around the warband members as this really could vary. You could have rebel troopers or something different depending on how many non-blaster armed figures you might have. That way you could be a rogue Jedi group (like in Rebels) or be a small Rebel hit squad.
Eg use the Barbarian profile for a Wookie, Thug profiles for Ewoks?
Sith Lord & Apprentice (200 gc)
Use the Tracker profile for Stormtroopers - 3 (@ 80 gc each),
Use Archer profile for Imperial Officer - 1 (@ 50 gc),
Use War Hound Profile for a droid - 1 (@ 10 gc).
What d'ya think?
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Sounds great! I'm already considering playing frostgrave with my 40k inq28 miniatures, if seems like with some simple changes in wording it can really be used for anything! (Also, star wars vs 40k battles)
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I think it could work - you'd probably want to start with higher level wizards. It seems to me that Jedi should have higher Fight and Health than starting wizards.
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@ nozza_uk
Pipped to the post by joe5mc! But yes, as long as they have a bit more Fight and skill wielding the powers, I reckon it'd work rather well. :)
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What about making the wizards Level 10? Adding +5 to Fight and +5 to Health. Would that work. My only concern is that this would max out the fight value too early.
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I think it could work - you'd probably want to start with higher level wizards. It seems to me that Jedi should have higher Fight and Health than starting wizards.
Higher Fight yes, but not health. Instead make them more enduring by increasing Armour. Add a special rule for lightsabers that cause instant death or +10 damage or something to reflect a failed defence is equal to being dead.
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Add a special rule for lightsabers that cause instant death or +10 damage or something to reflect a failed defence is equal to being dead.
Or, just apply the critical hit rule for lightsabers and not for any other weapon - sometimes hands are cut off, after all!
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Or, just apply the critical hit rule for lightsabers and not for any other weapon - sometimes hands are cut off, after all!
Or have Lightsabers crit on a 16+, making them as deadly as the should be and still allowing the odd lucky shot for everyone else
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I wonder if Lightsabres should just be treated as a Magic Weapon instead? Keeps it "within the rules" and is easy to tweak whilst still allowing the opportunity for a model to be disarmed etc.
I also think that a few spells could be swapped out for some of the more iconic Force powers/Jedi skills - like deflect bolt or throw Lightsabre.
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My gut feeling was that Lightsabres should be treated as a Magic Weapon as well. Also, it's been established that certain types of armour are Lightsaber proof. The latest being the Vadar/Kanan fight in episode 1 of Rebels season 2, where Vadar scores a hit on Kanan, only to scratch his shoulder armour.
(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150717163153/es.starwars/images/e/e7/Vader_Siege_of_Lothal_08.png)
I think increasing the initial Fight rating would be the way to go, but I do like the idea of lowering the Critical Hit threshold.
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Hmm, that's sound very exiting.
I read some very positive reviews of the Frostgrave rules, but have to admit that I lost a bit of interest in any Fantasy setting.
Are there any SF settings planned for the Frostgrave ruleset?
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Another thing would be to just come up with your own "Force schools", and completely re-stat starting Force users and apprentices, perhaps giving them a couple of mandatory starting powers according to which "school" they choose.
Then, aside from adding in a couple of extra ranged weapon profiles to better represent blasters (I'd maybe consider a pistol and a big gun of some sort), I'd use the rest of the game as-is.
I honestly think that would probably give you the best chance of creating a "proper" Jedi/Sith character and their warband. I know that "best fit" is appealing, and that a lot of Frostgrave would work as-is; however, I reckon that having a squishy non-combat wizard is not the best starting point and changing that will likely have a knock-on effect anyway.
You could also set it in the KOTOR era if you like, as weapons like vibroblades and cortosis-weave duelling blades were used more commonly, and would better represent starting weapons I think; the Lightsabre could then be a magic weapon "upgrade" later on.
Some rough "schools" could be:
Combat-focused
- Jedi Guardian (light/neutral)
- Jedi Weapon Master (light paragon)
- Sith Marauder (dark side)
Balanced
- Grey Jedi (neutral)
- Jedi Sentinel (light/neutral)
- Jedi Watchman (light paragon)
- Sith Assassin (dark side)
Acadamic (i.e., "mages")
- Jedi Consular (light/neutral)
- Jedi Master (light paragon)
- Sith Lord (dark side)
You would then be able to align them simply enough, and transfer over suitable spells (or make new Force powers) for them accordingly.
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Jedi go down to gun fire just like everyone else, it's just far harder to hit them. I'd give them the +5 to fight but not health (thinking one off generic games, for a campaign where your Jedi progresses in stats it would need more tweaking).
The important rules tweak in my opinion would be light sabre blaster deflection. A simple tweak in my mind, defensive deflection is already covered by them having a high fight value, the shooter doesn't necessarily miss, the blasts just don't get through. Bouncing the blast back could be handled two ways:
A) the shooter takes a shot at the Jedi as normal, modifying for the terrain etc. Roll as normal, if the Jedi wins the roll, the short is bounced back. Make a shooting roll from the Jedi to the original shooter as normal.
If you want to make the Jedi really powerful then don't do a shooting roll, just use the score from their original roll which is based off their fight and is probably high anyway after beating the last dice roll.
B) the shooter aims a shot at the Jedi, the Jedi declares they will bounce the shot. Disregard cover between them as the Jedi squares off to the shot, treat it in the same manner as a combat so the highest roller does damage to the other, shoot vs fight. The reason to disregard cover is because otherwise the Jedi gets a massive bonus which isn't returned.
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@ Dewbakuk:
I guess it does depend on:
- Whether you want the Jedi (and Padawan?) to begin with lightsabre or not
- Whether the ability to deflect blaster bolts is unique to a Force-user wielding a lightsabre, or whether it can be done with any "resistant" hand weapon like a Cortosis-weave vibroblade.
- Whether the ability to direct deflected blaster bolts is a Force power in it's own right
I suppose you *could* also have rules for the three main lightsabre types (single, paired, staff), but I don't know how much that would add to the game necessarily.
There are also magic items in the book so far like a Robe that turns arrows which could be translated nicely over to represent the difficulty in hitting the Jedi with a ranged shot.
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All my opinion of course, but...
@ Dewbakuk:
I guess it does depend on:
- Whether you want the Jedi (and Padawan?) to begin with lightsabre or not
As I said, I was mostly thinking of one off games but a Jedi should definately have a light sabre, as should a Padawan who has reached the stage in training where they are off wandering the galaxy with their master and not sat in a temple training.
- Whether the ability to deflect blaster bolts is unique to a Force-user wielding a lightsabre, or whether it can be done with any "resistant" hand weapon like a Cortosis-weave vibroblade.
Force users only.
- Whether the ability to direct deflected blaster bolts is a Force power in it's own right
Definately a force power but I've never seen a trained force user that can't do it so I wouldn't count it as a spell. In a campaign you might have it cost the Padawan a level to do it. It's kind of the default training item in all Star Wars stuff.
I wouldn't add a distinction between the light sabres myself. Just count it as personal styles.
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Had a test play of using Frostgrave in Star Wars setting last night.
Here's the board.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2345.JPG)
The Sith Master advanced. This was the first action that felt like Star Wars. The Sith Master cast 'Leap' as his first action and then moved for his second action. Probably didn't help that I was humming 'Duel of the Fates' and making lightsaber noises. The R2 was a treasure token.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2348.JPG)
The Sith Apprentice encounters the Jedi Master. Again, the droid in the picture was a treasure token.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2347.JPG)
The Sith Master had initiative and cast 'Elemental Lightning' (Force Lightning) at the Padawan. Unfortunately, for the Padawan, a critical hit was rolled and it was goodbye Padawan - there's nothing like the power of the darkside!
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2349.JPG)
This is where things turned decidedly unStar Wars like. A lowly Rebel thug engaged the Sith Master and inflicted 10 points of damage. These two would continue fighting the next turn with the Sith Master being defeated.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2350.JPG)
The Stormtroopers advanced into the marketplace. We used the Marksman profile for the Stormtroopers to reflect their shooting ability and armour. Stormtroopers proved to be surprisingly durable despite their limited numbers. In the distance, the first creature (using the wolf profile) appeared on the roof of a building.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2351.JPG)
The Sith Apprentice decisively engaged the Gamorrean (using the Barbarian profile) cutting him down in one fell swoop. Meanwhile, the Jedi Master fought the Stormtroopers suffering damage for his efforts.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2353.JPG)
Two more creatures had spawned. They headed straight toward the Rebel thugs, managing to inflict some serious damage.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2356.JPG)
Meanwhile, another Rebel thug managed to take out a creature. The Rebel player thought this thug had a treasure token sown up. However, in true dramatic style, the Sith Apprentice successfully used 'Leap' and leapt in front of the thug, before moving into contact for combat next turn. The next turn, saw the Sith Apprentice slay the Rebel thug.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2354.JPG)
It was beginning to look easy for the Empire. Although, the Rebels had two treasure tokens off the board, the Empire was systematically eliminating the Rebel forces. With one Thug left and four treasure tokens left, it looked slim for the Rebels. However, what changed the balance of the game, was that the two remaining creatures (using the Leopard and Werewolf profiles respectively) spied the Stormtroopers. Whilst the last Rebel thug headed off the board, the creatures slayed two Stormtroopers and the Sith Apprentice. A sudden change of plan saw the Rebel thug turnaround and eventually take out the remaining Stormtrooper (down to one health and one action). The Rebels won the six treasure tokens.
(http://www.freewebs.com/norrins/photos/Star-Wars/Frostgrave/IMG_2357.JPG)
The test play showed that it is possible to use Frostgrave for Star Wars. However, our play highlighted a few tweaks we need to make before embarking on a campaign.
- We used the Critical Hits optional rule for everyone. With hindsight, Critical Hits should only be available to Force Users.
- We need to increase the Force users fight. Initially things looked promising, but soon the Force users were being made to look decidedly average. We used to the Frostgrave default of +2 fight plus a Lightsaber bonus of +2 fight thinking this would be enough. However, this only put them on a par with a Barbarian. We're thinking +5 fight for force users, but only playtesting will tell.
- It was very hard for Force users to actually use the Force - other than multiple 'Leaps', the other successful spells were 'Push' and 'Elemental Lightning'. Both Sith and Jedi are using the Chronomancer template as their starting point and we used the penalties for using Aligned, Neutral and Opposed spells. By removing the penalties, we might see more demonstrations of the Force being used. For example, the Sith could use 'Strike Dead' on an 18 as opposed to the 20 as it stands.
- Lastly, we are going to introduce turn limits. Current thinking is a max of 6 turns and you only earn treasure that leaves the board.
Anyway, that was our first testplay. I think we need to have at least another one to try and solve the Force users Fight ability - however, there's only so much you can do when you roll a string of 2s. ;)
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Duplicate posting for some reason. Removed the content.
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I would try improving the jedi's armour. The force allows them to avoid the worst hits.
If a barbarian rols a 16 to hit with the +4 fight he is likely to win the fight regardless of whether the jedi has a fight of +2 or +5.
That is 12 hp lost to the jedi.
If you increase their armour to 14 that would reduce the damage they take to 8 instead.
When 2 jedi are fighting it out you really want the battle to last a while. High fight and low armour means it will be over quickly.
I would go for 14 armour for the jedi and 12 for the Padawan.
Also allow the use of levels to increase the armour to a max of 16.
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That's an idea. Hadn't thought of adjusting the armour value. We just used the default value of 10 for both Master & Apprentice.
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I have finally found my Darth Nihilus and Darth Malak miniatures so I can start my own Old Republic warband. I found out that I have plenty of SW miniatures but most of them is not sharing side nor era. :-)
However, I suggest not to make any changes in the Frostgrave system, besides changing names of equipment. My reasoning is as follows:
1) Jedi/Sith=Wizard
I mean, without their special powers they are pretty much the same (from the stats point of view) as ordinary people with similar training. That said, I believe that Stormtrooper sergeant with Ysalamiri on his back, will take Jedi Padawan in a fight quite easily. So the difference is made by the Force, or magic in case of Frostgrave Wizards. There are spells in Frostgrave that work similarily (I even don't think it's coincidence... is it Joe?) to the Force Powers. Examples: Combat Awareness, Leap, Strength, Bone Dart, Push, Fleet Feet, Awareness...
Also, jedi usually don't wear armor! :-)
2) Bow and Crossbow=Blaster Pistol and Rifle
Have you ever noticed, that people with rifles in the Star Wars movies fire from static positions, while with pistols they shoot on the move? How could that be applied on Frostgrave?
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That pistols are Bows, and rifles are Crossbows... (-1 shot for movement)
By the way there has to be stormtrooper penalty -20 for shooting :-)
Anyway I like this idea.
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That was rhethorical question, bro, but you got me right. Yes, of course Stormtroopers are at -20... "Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise"
Or, I can roll for them :-)