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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Frostgrave => Topic started by: Hupp n at em on August 14, 2015, 12:19:50 AM
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Searching here and elsewhere on the net, I found a lot of tutorials for making snow for bases, very useful for Frostgrave obviously. Knowing LA's love of cheaper alternatives, I thought I'd bring one tip that I didn't see on here to your collective attention.
Most of you probably know the baking soda + PVA for snow paste method, but I didn't see any mention of adding white acrylic paint to the mix like this guy does: http://justthebases.blogspot.com/2011/08/home-made-snow-effect-for-bases.html (http://justthebases.blogspot.com/2011/08/home-made-snow-effect-for-bases.html). It solves the yellowing issue, so your basing/terrain will never have to be updated. :)
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Personaly I made a few test bases with baking soda mixed with acrylic heavygel and acrylic gloss medium, instead of pva glue. This way the fake snow is "sealed" into acrylic resin, in a way.
A month later, after tryin to put the figure in direct sunlight (summer in south west of france is pretty hot) all day long, placing the figure under direct water (to try to activate some moisture reaction), etc... No yellowing so far.
I don't know how long it usually take for pva glue + baking soda to turn yellow ?
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Sorry man, but even my baking snow *with* white paint yellowed over time. So I'd still stay away from baking soda and get this stuff:
http://www.sceneryworkshop.nl/crushed-glass-crystal-clear-powder-50gr-sw-cgcrp.html
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I've got a great big plastic container of Noch modeling snow (1 liter), which was cheaper than that one container of glas. But as I've only ever based one mini with it, I'm not sure on how it will hold up on a playing surface.
As for the glass; how much mileage do you get out of the one container? It seems awfully small for use on a whole table (even if it will be just 120x120cm). And I assume the picture on the site you linked to doesn't do the stuff justice?
Also; how abrassive is the final surface? I'm a bit hesitant subjecting my paintjobs (such as they are) to a snowy version of sanding paper.
I wouldn't mind shelling out for a superior product, but not when it'll damage my minis, and be dangerous all the time due to flakes/splinters scraping off. Especially with a little one around the house, with a more than healthy interest in daddy's toys... ::)
So I'm still on the fence in regards to what method and/or material I will be using for both my table, terrain and bases; I prefer using the same method for all of them, to better tie them together.
As it is though, I'm still partial to the Noch stuff with PVA glue, on top of a base layer of sand with a white basecoat...
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The trick that I learned to prevent yellowing of baking powder was not to add white paint, but a small drop of blue ink... It seems to help a bit but I don't think you can eliminate yellowing of baking powder entirely, I did this with a single figure about five years ago and only recently have parts of the snow started to turn yellow, and it has been in a display cabinet all this time.
While crushed glass doesn't yellow or lose it's shine ever, it has problems of it's own (most having to do with it being an abrasive micro-granulite of tiny razorsharp glass shards that you do not ever want to get in your eyes, lungs/mucus membranes or open wounds, resin powder is a "friendly" substance compared to it).
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Crushed glass is a baaaaaaaad solution for tables or scenery, I only use it for bases. For tables and scenery the WS stuff is terrific.
And I love the effect of crushed glass. It's powdery finish is perfect for snow. Check out my frostgrave topic with my vampire for an example.
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Some more discussions here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=80827.0), including adding white paint to baking soda.
Whilst the white paint does help, the two reasons the stuff yellows over time are:
1) Air pollution / ambient humidity / dust / physical handling all get absorbed by the baking powder, and this can affect it's colour. Mixing it with glue and paint helps to encapsulate it somewhat, but the stuff is still rather absorbent.
2) The PVA glue yellows over time. You can get UV-resistant glues which help to avoid this, but even they will still yellow a little over time. It's with these glues that the white paint trick is most effective, as it "counteracts" some mild yellowing.
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Whilst the white paint does help, the two reasons the stuff yellows over time are:
1) Air pollution / ambient humidity / dust / physical handling all get absorbed by the baking powder, and this can affect it's colour. Mixing it with glue and paint helps to encapsulate it somewhat, but the stuff is still rather absorbent.
2) The PVA glue yellows over time. You can get UV-resistant glues which help to avoid this, but even they will still yellow a little over time. It's with these glues that the white paint trick is most effective, as it "counteracts" some mild yellowing.
So what about my solution ? Using acrylic product (medium, heavy gel) to "seal" the baking soda should avoid this behaviour ?
For now, it's working, but since I readed that it may take years to go yellow, I cannot be sure.
I also have the woodland scenics stuff, really great product that I keep for my customers commissions. But for my own hobby creations, I think I'll try the cheaper way, baking soda+acrylic medium/gel.
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I have used Caster Sugar, uPVA glue and white acrylic paint.
Mix all three together and apply as a paste.
The caster sugar gives sparkle and although it takes some time to fully set, has lasted me years without discolouring.
Good luck.
Tony
PS.
A tiny (and I mean tiny) drop of pale blue acrylic paint makes the stark white appear a little cooler!
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Here is an image of Caster Sugar/uPVA glue/Acrylic paint snow.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_E4Ft17VDj8s/SLbiBrdhUMI/AAAAAAAAA9I/FdUuj_QDNG0/s320/Bugman.JPG)
Details can be found here;
http://dampfpanzerwagon.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/bugman-command.html
Tony
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So what about my solution ? Using acrylic product (medium, heavy gel) to "seal" the baking soda should avoid this behaviour ?
I think it should work for wetter-looking snow. For the more powdery-looking fresh snow, it might not be so effective though.
I have used Caster Sugar, uPVA glue and white acrylic paint.
What a great idea!
Could you use salt instead of sugar to reduce it's attractiveness to insects/mould?
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I think it should work for wetter-looking snow. For the more powdery-looking fresh snow, it might not be so effective though.
Yes, you 're right it give a "wet" look. I'll post a pic soon to show you.
To save costs, another solution is using a mix of plaster and pva glue to make volume first stage work, and finally, spread some "expensive" modelling stuff on it (crushed glass or woodland scenics) for final aspect.
On this :
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/slotdem/miniature%20heroes%20and%20villains/P9280287_zpsc5c4850b.jpg)
I used this technic (using fine glass powder on top of plaster and pva mix).
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"Could you use salt instead of sugar to reduce it's attractiveness to insects/mould?"
Not sure.
I have read/seen that artificial sweetener works, but not sure about salt!
Tony
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Thanks for the explanation on the glass stuff; that's exactly what I was suspecting (so it's out ;) )
I've somewhere read about a guy using sparkly silver flakes in his mix of choice; anyone had any luck with that?
Also, I vaguely recall someone mentioning a snow/glitter spray?
+++EDIT+++ Just thought of this; birdcage sand? The stuff I remember was a stark white, with darker (and larger) grains in it, which could be sieved out. Might be worth a check perhaps?
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I've somewhere read about a guy using sparkly silver flakes in his mix of choice; anyone had any luck with that?
Also, I vaguely recall someone mentioning a snow/glitter spray?
I think that was Harry in his thread.
You can get some sands and some paints that have some mica in them to give them a glittery effect (a bit like metallic paints basically!).
You can also get "white" glitter to add to the mix, and you can even use a light overspray of a pearlescent paint.
Just thought of this; birdcage sand? The stuff I remember was a stark white, with darker (and larger) grains in it, which could be sieved out. Might be worth a check perhaps?
Might be if it's white enough. I'd probably just go with decorative sand which can be plain bright white or have some "glitter" in it.
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I think it should work for wetter-looking snow. For the more powdery-looking fresh snow, it might not be so effective though.
You can make a regular snow layer to start with and then sprinkle some crushed glass on top of the wet snow layer to finish it off. This will make it powdery; it is my standard method :)
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Would a very fine grained sand mixed with white paint and PVA work? What could replace PVA as the thickener since that will yellow with time too? :?
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Would a very fine grained sand mixed with white paint and PVA work? What could replace PVA as the thickener since that will yellow with time too? :?
Yes, and also see the previous posts in this thread? ;)
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Here's some pics of soda bicarbonate (organic farming quality) with acrylic gel (using medium instead of gel should work too, perhaps even better) bases samples I made. I took 2 pics with diferent light conditions :
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/slotdem/miniature%20heroes%20and%20villains/P1010544_zpsidd7anvz.jpg) (http://s92.photobucket.com/user/slotdem/media/miniature%20heroes%20and%20villains/P1010544_zpsidd7anvz.jpg.html)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8/slotdem/miniature%20heroes%20and%20villains/P1010536_zpsktkdi0au.jpg) (http://s92.photobucket.com/user/slotdem/media/miniature%20heroes%20and%20villains/P1010536_zpsktkdi0au.jpg.html)
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@ sundayhero:
They look rather good! :-*
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Thanks, I also think that "it works". But the unknown paramater is how it will look like in several months/years. Theorically, the acrylic resin "seal" should avoid yellowing, but i'm not sure.
It's why I'm still using woodland scenics snow for my customers, because I'm sure it will last correctly. But for my own personal needs, the baking acrylic mixture sounds "good enough". :D
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Yes, and also see the previous posts in this thread? ;)
I did, I didn't see a suggestion for replacement of PVA in the mix. :P Having recently handled decades-old Plasticville buildings for my Fallout project, I've seen how PVA yellows with age.
Plaster was mentioned, but still mixed with PVA. I'm not touching with a thousand foot pole what is essentially broken glass; ;) so that leaves me mixing WS snow, possibly plaster or a ? (PVA replacement) to achieve the more thickly piled snow, vs just gluing on the WS stuff for the fluffy effect.
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@ Hupp n at em:
You can get some sands and some paints that have some mica in them to give them a glittery effect (a bit like metallic paints basically!).
You can also get "white" glitter to add to the mix, and you can even use a light overspray of a pearlescent paint.
Might be if it's white enough. I'd probably just go with decorative sand which can be plain bright white or have some "glitter" in it.
And:
Personaly I made a few test bases with baking soda mixed with acrylic heavygel and acrylic gloss medium, instead of pva glue. This way the fake snow is "sealed" into acrylic resin, in a way.
A month later, after tryin to put the figure in direct sunlight (summer in south west of france is pretty hot) all day long, placing the figure under direct water (to try to activate some moisture reaction), etc... No yellowing so far.
I don't know how long it usually take for pva glue + baking soda to turn yellow ?
So you can use white decorative sand as a substitute for baking soda, and heavy acrylic gel as a substitute for PVA glue. You can add a little white paint too if you want. I guess you'll have to play a little with the rations to get a satisfying result though. :)
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So you can use white decorative sand as a substitute for baking soda, and heavy acrylic gel as a substitute for PVA glue. You can add a little white paint too if you want. I guess you'll have to play a little with the rations to get a satisfying result though. :)
Hmm I suppose that'd work even if my intent is just using it as a thickener instead of a sealant. As I've recently moved, I have far more cardboard around than I have hobby uses for, so testing should be a problem. lol
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I made several tests, the PVA glue mix doesn't give a very diferent result than using acrylic mediums, in my opinion. You don't necessary have to use gloss medium (like the one I'm using), you can find satin or even mate medium. You can also find mediums wich are not completly clear.
The biggest diference is the price, I buy my pva glue for 5euros/litre, my liquitex gloss medium for about 20euros/500ml, 10euros for a big (200ml I believe) heavy gel tube. But baking soda is definitly cheaper than modelling snow.
I also tried to use some Klir (varnish for floors) mixed with baking soda, but it gave me a slightly yellowish result (but my Klir is a bit yellow itself).
I believe the cheapest and best balance (for terrain) would be making the snow bulk with plaster and pva, and then apply some quality modelling snow like you would do for modelling flock.
I didn't try it, but it's probably possible to sprinkle some pure plaster on the scenery, then spray with tap water, wait for drying, sprinkle again, then water, etc... to make a nice heavy snow bulk. Then, glue the woodland scenics snow on top of this.
I will soon experiment all this for my frostgrave scenery, I'll keep you informed.
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I personally don't like doing table surfaces with anything that's messy (like flock, that always comes loose no matter what) or that's abrasive (like sand, which scuffs models badly if they should get knocked over).
For the last two tables I made, I used textured spray paint. These come in many dappled shades, give a nice texture, and dry a little rubbery. Plus, you can overspray them again with plain spray paint to get further colours.
On a snow table, I'd paint it dark grey, spray with light grey textured spray paint, then overspray with white. If you want cobbled patches, you could leave patches of the dark grey base coat free of the sprays and then use a stamp (made from card or cork or whatever) to add in the pattern. Easy, quick, cheap, flexible, and looks very good. :-)
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One of the various methods I use for snow is to combine Evostik exterior grade wood glue (which dries clear) with pure talcum powder and some white acrylic paint
Edit: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=79393.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=79393.0)