Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Sangennaru on August 27, 2015, 05:09:30 PM
-
...aka: Frostgrave without mages?
Hello LAFers!
Long story short: Frostgrave seems pretty much what i've been looking for for a while, but:
- There are only mage characters, and most of us simply don't like magic in games.
- The rules look... like a super-simplified D&D.
So, although i'm somehow really attracted by that game, i wonder if there are other games with a similar feeling.
I know Mordheim, but the gameplay is not enough "modern" (let's say that a lot of things happened since the 90's in the wargame development), but not much else.
I'm basically looking for a game where to use my load of Reaper Bones, Perry and others, possibly in a somehow competitive way (so, no GDR rules)... Did i miss some milestones here and there? :D
Thank you for the incredible amount of suggestions you'll most certainly provide! :D
Cheers,
Jack
-
Witchfinder General. Just leave out the witches lol
-
Song of Blades and Heroes (or any of the derived games) and leave out the Magic.
Till we moved over to 1650 - we used Mordheim for such games, again just leaving out the magic.
-
Two rules more normally associated with Pulp might be worth checking out:
7th Voyage: actually, this isn't Pulp itself (though it's derived from the Pulpy 7TV). This is an impressive rules set, and is beautifully produced. I just received the cards and tokens made for the rules and they are incredibly high quality, I can assure you. While it focuses mainly on Greek myths and the Arabian Nights, the rules could easily cover general fantasy games, and there is no need to use the magic rules. There is a complete points system, so competition games should be very doable.
Then there is Pulp Alley. Definitely new and cutting edge, as well as being incredibly popular, these may be good to use also. Though they are geared to Pulp, quite a number of people use it for fantasy (or Star Wars, or...), without any mods whatsoever, and say it works beautifully. The rules have a very clever, easy to use system for building your teams, and I'd think they could work competitively, though that isn't the main thrust of the set. Again, the magic rules, such as they are, could easily be left out.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your search.
-
I've settled on Brink of Battle and it's Epic Heroes fantasy expansion, meself.
-
"Otherworld Fantasy Skirmish". I´m reading it right now, and this is a very nice ruleset.
-
Song of Blades and Heroes (or any of the derived games) and leave out the Magic.
I'd second this. As well as being tremendously well designed, the Ganesha systems have the great advantage of being very cheap. Also, SBH works very well with the same sort of treasure-hunting scenario as Frostgrave.
The other great thing about SBH (and the rest) is that your "time to tabletop" is absolutely minimal. You can stat up warbands in a minute or two using the [url+http://www.ganeshagames.net/extra_info_pages.php?pages_id=17&osCsid=spi6qfujmavevmbn1ge49n5d30]online builders[/url][/color] on the Ganesha site. And once you've got the hang of the game, you can do most calculations in your head. You can create pretty much any sort of profile to match whatever miniatures you have.
A final point: because the system is (deceptively) simple, you don't need to consult the rulebooks often or at all once you've played a game or two. That, to me, is a huge advantage.
-
Thanks for the suggestions!
I'm a big fan of SoBH and i've used for a while, and i know Pulp Alley, but... i was looking for something more mordheim-esque, which includes equipping the units, playing campaigns (possibly pre-made) and such, without loosing the "point cost" aspect (which is almost not present in PA and badly conceived in SoBH)... Reading some reviews for Brink of Battle, seems nice! Sure a lot of material... :)
Don't you know if there is any custom mod to play frostgrave with no magic? I know it changes thing a bit but stil... :)
-
Take a rule-set you like, and whip up some campaign rules or equipment/treasure/skill tables.
-
About SOBH, there is an ongoing Kickstarter where you can grab the advanced rules, PDF or printed version.
From the KS:
What differences are there between basic Sobh and Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes? Why the change? What are your plans?
Advanced SOBH is the version of the rules that you find in Fightin' Fungi so it us the same as basic SOBH but it adds:
1) reactions
2) special rules to simulate weapons and shields, e.g. Block, Long Reach, Flail etc
3) a detailed spell system with 30+ spells
Supplements will add specific subsets of rules. For example Hammer and Forge will add Runecasting, some weapons, and a few more wall spells. Leaf and Arrow (Elves) will add different types of bows and special Arrows. And so on.
-
About SOBH, there is an ongoing Kickstarter where you can grab the advanced rules, PDF or printed version.
Yeah, read about that, seems interesting! However, although i already love SoBH (and Flying Lead, the modern version, expecially), i was looking for something more "detailed". Brink of Battle could be an interesting option indeed, does it have some solid campaign rules?
As for whipping up my own rules, i'm doing that already for another two gaming projects, and i rather wanted to have an already printed and solid ruleset for once. :)
-
Love 7th Voyage and am eagerly awaiting a chance to have a go with Otherworld Fantasy Skirmish!
-
If you need some more info on the Otherworld skirmish rules, the latest Meeples and Miniatures podcast has an interview with the designers. Not sure if it is what you are looking for as the initial rules seem to be mainly dungeon crawl rather than gang fights, although the first expansion will go above ground.
John
-
As a side note, i've found that D&D 5 edition has a free reduced version (still 250 pages!) downloadable from the WotC website! That's an interesting option as well... at least the gameplay works pretty swell!
-
Hmm, I guess it depends on what setting/style you're after...
Something like Empire of the Dead could work perfectly well if you're willing to stat up your own crews. Plenty of "stuff" in there that you can use or ignore as you wish too, so it should be easy to port. It's basically like a slightly more modern Necromunda/Mordheim.
Alternatively, just for pure mechanics and gameplay, something like Malifaux works excellently. You'll again need to make your own cards for your own characters, but there's lots of stuff that you start with - from gremlins to monsters, from gunslingers to peasant bowmen, etc. The complete rules manual is like $10 too, so not expensive if that's all you need for your purposes. Lastly, it does have a built-in system for upgrading some models, and a new book has *just* been released that deals with campaign play and gaining experience (no idea if it's any good though - mines still in the post!).
Take a rule-set you like, and whip up some campaign rules or equipment/treasure/skill tables.
Yeah, basically this! :P
-
What you are suggesting might work very well, but...
As for whipping up my own rules, i'm doing that already for another two gaming projects, and i rather wanted to have an already printed and solid ruleset for once. :)
Basically, i'm working on my Sci-Fi rules, they work rather well and keep me and my friends busy in the game-design part. We're also studying a long-term campaign system for SAGA as well, so for this game (that can become a nice campaign system for low-effort evenings) i'd like to have something ready made.
For this, Frostgrave seemed perfect, but the idea of having only wizards wasn't the best choice for all of us. It would be great to simply have a non-magic version of frostgrave, that's it! ^_^
-
For this, Frostgrave seemed perfect, but the idea of having only wizards wasn't the best choice for all of us. It would be great to simply have a non-magic version of frostgrave, that's it! ^_^
Why not substitute the Wizard classes for Adventurer classes instead, and the Spells for Skills? That would be simple enough to do, and keeps all the other Frostgrave rules basically the same.
Each player would then have an Adventurer, a Sidekick/protégé, plus a band of hired henchmen to raid the ruins for valuable treasures... Sounds a little bit like Tomb Raider in some ways!
-
Another voice piping up for both Song of... and Otherworld. Song of... Has been around for a good few years and I find it a great little system; Otherworld came out around the same time as Frostgrave so I've only just started playing it, but I like what I see.
Neither system is great for building experience, however, if that's of interest to you?
-
Neither system is great for building experience, however, if that's of interest to you?
at least in a sense, yes. I'd love to have a campaign - dungeon crawler with coop or versus players and no master... that requires a good point system (and SoBH has a terrible point system) and some ways to improve your troops without max-mins... i'm not saying i want it ironclad solid, but better than "use your imagination". :)
Why not substitute the Wizard classes for Adventurer classes instead, and the Spells for Skills? That would be simple enough to do, and keeps all the other Frostgrave rules basically the same.
Each player would then have an Adventurer, a Sidekick/protégé, plus a band of hired henchmen to raid the ruins for valuable treasures... Sounds a little bit like Tomb Raider in some ways!
Sounds great! is there any already proposed system for that? My point is that i don't want to invest my game-design time in that, since i've got already two already opened game developings...
-
at least in a sense, yes. I'd love to have a campaign - dungeon crawler with coop or versus players and no master... that requires a good point system (and SoBH has a terrible point system) and some ways to improve your troops without max-mins... i'm not saying i want it ironclad solid, but better than "use your imagination". :)
Out of interest, where do you find the SoBH points system breaks down? I've generally found that the vulnerability of any one "heavy" to numbers and missile fire means that it's harder than in most fantasy games to create an "unbreakable" hero or monster. (a bunch of goblins or kobolds with the Gregarious rule can swarm and bring down the nastiest monster pretty easily; ditto weak archers using Concentrated Fire).
The Advanced SoBH system is already out (in the form of Fightin' Fungi). I don't know if you've seen it, but it offers more combat detail than Frostgrave - naturally enough, given the latter's magical focus. So, ASoBH has three types of two-handed weapons, flails, warmers (armour-piercing), spears, javelins, short bows, crossbows, different types of martial art and so on.
I suppose where I'm puzzled is that most of Frostgrave's detail is in the magic. If you don't want the magic, it's a pretty basic system otherwise - and less detailed than many other skirmish games (no morale, few weapon types, rigid profiles). That's in no way a criticism of Frostgrave - it's great - but its emphasis seems to be on precisely what you don't want.
My solution for a "non-magical Frostgrave" would be to use ASoBH, but allow each starting warband just two personalities - one of up to 75 points and one of up to 50 points (in lieu of the magician and his apprentice). Each warband would be 300 points overall to begin with. Then you could set a ratio of victory points to warband points to allow upgrades in the form of either new troops or additional traits/stat advances. If the winner of each encounter received up to 25 points (and the loser less, obviously) that could either be saved or spent, you could get a really nice, slow progression.
So, you might start with a main character with Q3, C3, Leader, Short Bow for 70 points and a deputy with Q3, C4, Bludgeon. If the first battle went well, you might have 20 points to spend on upgrades. If no troops needed replaced, you could add Good Shot and Stealth to your leader for 12 points, and then give the deputy Block (shield) for 8 points. And so on. You could upgrade your regular troops as well. A further twist would be to allow the removal of traits and the taking of downgrades (perhaps the deputy's leg was injured in the last encounter, so he now has Short Move), to allow some rejuggling of points. (it's expensive, obviously). That could give a really nice narrative flow to the campaign. Given the number of traits in the Ganesha stable, you would have virtually endless options. You could upgrade C and Q too, of course (though that's expensive).
You could allocate victory points in groups of five for each objective during games. So a 5-point objective would give you 5 points to spend; achieving 5 out of 5 objectives in a single game would give you 25, but a mixed outcome might give one player 15 and another 10.
Just a few thoughts! :)
-
Out of interest, where do you find the SoBH points system breaks down? I've generally found that the vulnerability of any one "heavy" to numbers and missile fire means that it's harder than in most fantasy games to create an "unbreakable" hero or monster. (a bunch of goblins or kobolds with the Gregarious rule can swarm and bring down the nastiest monster pretty easily; ditto weak archers using Concentrated Fire).
Well, speaking of the "old" SoBH, it breaks down kinda immediately. Most of the heroic skills (expecially "tough") are overpowered for their point cost, and some (like "hero") can be easily used on a Q6 model for a rather cheap price. In general, even using the point system defined in the manual the unbalanced point system is rather obvious, but when you're allowed to customize your models (using the linear formula of the units generator) you can ways too easily max-min your troops.
That, in a way that makes the point system almost unusable. That was the same think that all my mate thoughts as well as most of the players i've met around. I kinda spent some time chatting with Sfiligoi (the SoBH creator), and he kinda admitted the flaws himself.
For what i care, SoBH is great even without a reliable point system, but i can't use that for a "serious game" in good faith. :(
About the fact that frostgrave doesn't have much other than mages... you might be right, i suppose... =(
Meanwhile, after almost three day spent painting my first warband miniature, i completely spoiled it by applying a hand of protective spray with something dusty nearby. Now i can also trow the mini away. :( At last it wasn't the hero... but still. :(
-
"Meanwhile, after almost three day spent painting my first warband miniature, i completely spoiled it by..."
ArghhhhH! Sorry to hear it!
-Michael
-
Meanwhile, after almost three day spent painting my first warband miniature, i completely spoiled it by applying a hand of protective spray with something dusty nearby. Now i can also trow the mini away. :( At last it wasn't the hero... but still. :(
Strip, rinse, repeat. :D
-
Out of curiosity what are your objections to Mordheim?
-
Am I the only one who feels a dedicated fantasy spin-of for Pulp alley would be a good idea?
-
Ehh, i will most likely start all over again. It was the first 28mm i painted since a LONG time and it was turning out rather cool, now i'm a tad demotivated.
Out of curiosity what are your objections to Mordheim?
Mordheim is a great framework, but i really am not a fan of the combat mechanics. After all, it is probably not so different from the others, so it might be an option as well. ^_^
Am I the only one who feels a dedicated fantasy spin-of for Pulp alley would be a good idea?
If i'm not mistaken, the point system of PA isn't meant for competitive gaming, it's only there to have an idea of the troops in play. That might be a problem for a PvP campaign system? :(
Cheers
Jack
-
Having Pulp Alley branch out with some pure fantasy rules seems like a very natural direction to me. While some people are using it for fantasy games already, without any modifications, it would still be great to have a slightly more detailed hth system, rules for armour, spells, some creatures' stats, etc. I hope this happens in the future!
-
That would be something to watch for sure!
Personally i'm now attracted by BoB and D&D5 ed (the free edition is pretty much similar, with a LOT of content for free: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules ), although i am curious to take a look at ASoBH... i hate that i can't read the manuals before i buy them. :( And i DO buy a lot of them, for sure.
-
Well, speaking of the "old" SoBH, it breaks down kinda immediately. Most of the heroic skills (expecially "tough") are overpowered for their point cost, and some (like "hero") can be easily used on a Q6 model for a rather cheap price. In general, even using the point system defined in the manual the unbalanced point system is rather obvious, but when you're allowed to customize your models (using the linear formula of the units generator) you can ways too easily max-min your troops.
That, in a way that makes the point system almost unusable. That was the same think that all my mate thoughts as well as most of the players i've met around. I kinda spent some time chatting with Sfiligoi (the SoBH creator), and he kinda admitted the flaws himself.
Interesting. But what particular use would a Q6 creature with the Hero trait be? At long distances, it would get the free move that anything else would. At closer ranges, you'd be guaranteed an attack or a shot, but with very little chance of a second or third action and a huge risk of a turnover if you rolled both dice. Moving and attacking in the same turn would be a rarity, and the characters would probably be exposed to missile fire a lot. They'd very rarely be able to take advantage of the Ambush rule.
And - most importantly - what miniature would fit such a profile? A rusty automaton or something? Or a very old undead hero? If your opponents are really trying to stat anything more run-of-the mill that way, the problem may not lie with the rules ... ;)
Also, Q6, C3, Hero is 15 points and a chunk of your 33% allowance for personalities. You can get Q3, C2 for just 5 points more without eating into your personality allowance - or C4, C2, Gregarious. Both are likely to allow much more effective use of ganging up, given the likelihood of more actions per turn. Given the freed-up personality points for leaders or powerful heroes, I'd go for the weaker but more disciplined standard troops every time.
With Tough, if you're going for something with C3, that's more than half your personality allowance in a standard 300-point warband if the model is Q3, and around half even if it's Q4. And that Q will worsen with each wound in standard SoBH, so there's little or no point taking a creature that's any worse than Q4. Also, unless the character has a high C score, there's a reasonable chance that he'll be killed outright in combat anyway (it's fairly easy to triple the score of an outnumbered foe with C of 2 or 3)
To put both options into context, if you want a Q3, C3 character with Tough and Hero, that's 90 points (so pretty much your full standard personality allowance). You could get six Q6/C3 characters with Hero, or seven Q6/C2 ones, but would they really be any better? I'd take the Q3/C3, Tough, Hero character every time - and probably give him Shooter: Medium to take the point cost up to 98 and give him a ranged attack. One more thing: in Advanced SoBH, your Q6 characters would hardly ever get to react (it's a quality roll), which would disadvantage them further.
Meanwhile, after almost three day spent painting my first warband miniature, i completely spoiled it by applying a hand of protective spray with something dusty nearby. Now i can also trow the mini away. :( At last it wasn't the hero... but still. :(
Sorry to hear that! It's the most infuriating thing when it happens (and the reason I never use spray cans now). Hope the salvage job goes well!