Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Mick_in_Switzerland on December 01, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
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Hello everybody,
I enjoy fairly simple sets of rules - Lion Rampant, Rapid Fire, GW Lord of the Rings.
I want something similar for modern skirmish.
I have been playing quite a lot of Force of Force in recent years and I enjoy the rules but do often find them complicated.
I am intrigued to learn about the alternatives - Spectre, Black Ops, Danger Close, Skirmish Sangin etc
I want a fun easy to learn set of rules rather than a complex simulation.
What do you recommend and why?
Thanks
Mick
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Black Ops is great and an expansion or two would make it a very useable set for modern warfare without the spy sideline. FoF is currently gripping me but like you say it is fairly complicated.
A modern set of Rapid Fire or Bolt Action would be great, there are fans out there who have made a great job of converting these rules into the modern era.
Good luck
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Skirmish Sangin is a very elegant set of rules but it's quite marker heavy (ie on the table to show figure status) and I have to run every game if we ever play because the other guys are daunted by it. It's a great set for 4 or 5 figures a side though.
Spectre is OK and I man may well have gone with it until Black Ops turned up. It's a simple system in terms of the fundamentals but full of nice touches that subtly offer tactical options.
I had a brief look at Danger Close but really preferred what Black Ops offered. It's ideal for special forces operations, especially with the stealth rules.
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After testing several systems I think BlackOp is the best. Fast and simple. Danger Close is only a beta version of a system for me. Very good idea, but not thought until the end. Maybe it will be take some development. The thread in this forum with BA Modern is very good, should test it: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=84919.0
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I have played Force on Force, Spectre, Black Ops, and Terminator Genisys. I like of each of these games. My solution for gaming modern small unit/special operations scenarios is a combination of them all.
I think Black Ops offers great mission tables for generating scenarios and useful rules for a number of special equipment items. Spectre also provides some useful rules. Since Terminator Genisys uses a two polyhedral dice system to represent troop quality and morale, Force on Force provides excellent guidelines for troops not already represented in Terminator Genisys.
But I think Terminator Genisys rules written by Alessio Cavetore are superior for exciting tactical special ops modern gaming. While not specifically intended to cover special operations type gaming, it is easily diverted to this task. Just no Terminators!
As is typical of Allessio, the rules are deceptively simple but offer a lot of tactical nuance.
This is an oversimplification, but each turn you go back and forth activating models until both sides are done. Each time you get to activate troops you get to activate 1-3 miniatures. Or you might get the Fate result and only get to activate a leader. But if you activate leaders they can also activate nearby troops. So when you stack up to make an entry, you might have the first two or three models make entry and give your opponent an opportunity to react or you might use your leaders to better coordinate the entry and go in with four or five models.
In my opinion this simple game mechanic, as well as the rest of the mechanics in this game provide a superior gaming experience. So I use Terminator Genisys mechanics for activation and combat. Black Ops for the scenario, and add special rules from Black Ops and Spectre as desired.
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The only one of these rules I have played is Force on Force, which was originally called Ambush Alley but morphed into FoF if I understand correctly. I do like FoF but it is a bit complicated.
I read that the writers are going back to their roots and releasing an updated Ambush Alley sometime this year (better get cracking guys!), which from the sounds of it will be a streamlined version of FoF/ improved Ambush Alley, but will remain compatible with all the FoF supplements. That may be worth waiting for. I know I can't wait to give it a spin.
Paul
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Also don't forget the Chain of Command rules by TooFatLardies
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I have added Black Ops to my wish list. I will give it a try.
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I see you've already added Black Ops to the list, so this recommendation is more of a confirmation. Each aspect of the rules is fairly basic. The model stat line consists of just four key stats. The weapon list is short, but comprehensive. The most complicated aspect of the game is activation which is essentially a card driven system with a few wrinkles in the form of orders, overwatch, and held actions. Taken individually there isn't anything terribly ground breaking here, but the way each of those systems interact with each other results in a game that is much more than the sum of its parts.
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don't forget "no end in sight", wich is a great indie modern ruleset.
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has anyone tried the cold war 1983 rules from wessex games?
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has anyone tried the cold war 1983 rules from wessex games?
I believe the gentleman who runs the winter 1979 blog worked with those rules for a bit. Might hit him up and ask his thoughts on it.
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Look at OSC ;)
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We also forgot FUBAR, wich is a suprisingly elegant and eficient ruleset. Don't be fooled by the fact it's free and compacted on one single page. A lot of diferent versions exist, but the original one is very well designed for modern skirmish gaming.
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I bit the bullet and bought four painted Insurgents. I thought I could use these as Special Forces and proxy my Pathans as Taliban until I decide what I want to do.
Best rules for small skirmish games? A mate games Skirmish Sangin but I'm open to ideas.
Thanks. J
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Try OSC
Its available from a few places now and is produced by www.evilbearwargames.com (http://www.evilbearwargames.com)
With book 2 going together currently that bring then game up from skirmish to full warfare.
Lots of new free downloads in the wings as well so players can playtest select rules from the second book a head of launch, from fire teams to vehicles.
(http://www.evilbearwargames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/OSC_Cover-723x1024.png)
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I have used Force On Force, Skirmish Sangin and just bought Black Ops. Force On Force is thorough, and models the difference between well-trained and militia/insurgents well. However, I have never quite got the hang of the Action/Reaction mechanic and so don't play it much. But it does work well for games up to platoon size with a few vehicles and supports.
Skirmish Sangin is, for me, a little bit old-school, with percentage dice and lots of modifiers for observation and shooting. I found it pretty straight forward to pick up and like the variable activation depending on your figures' "BODY" characteristic - not straight IGOUGO at all, which I like. It works well with small numbers per side - say a squad of 8-12 regulars v about 15 insurgents. Having said that larger games are perfectly possible e.g. platoon level, and would work well as multi-player games. It can be a little tricky keeping track of which figure is which in terms of characteristics and activation (an important part of the game), but this is not a deal breaker. Although set in Afghanistan, it can be applied to a wide range of asymmetric conflicts. In fact the publishers have just brought out a supplement for Mogadishu 1993. The rules and supplements cover pretty much all aspects of modern COIN warfare, and there are free scenarios on the Skirmish Sangin blog. I like the rules and play them more regularly than FoF.
I have just bought Black Ops and have played one game and have to say that I really enjoyed the game they gave. They are not as detailed as either of the above but being relatively simple rules does not equate to being simplistic. They may be a little more 'Hollywood' in approach, but that is a deliberate design decision. They have a random activation based on a card-draw system; as a fan of the Too Fat Lardies stable of games, many of which use card activation, I am perfectly happy with this and it adds a good element of tension to the game.
In the end I think it boils down to what you are after. All three give a good and enjoyable game. FoF allows for larger games and probably over a wider period of time and broader range of conflicts. Skirmish Sangin gives a very good representation of low level (section) COIN warfare in the modern era. Black Ops is probably the easiest to get into to begin with and can be used in a variety of contexts e.g. Special Forces v Insurgents; Militia v Regulars; Intelligence Services v Organised Crime gangs etc. Based on my recent game of Black Ops, I would recommend this as No1, then Skirmish Sangin, then FoF.
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Excellent overview - thanks
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Thanks everybody.
I have ordered Black Ops and hope it will arrive in a day or two.
I have played a lot of Force on Force but I find it rather too complex - I never feel that I am doing it right...
I do like the scenarios for Force on Force and will use them with other rules.
Regards
Mick
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Cold War 83 used an "EDNA" concept called BOTTLE, a single 2-12 value which covered the figures quality and status - so an SAS trooper could start at 10 and gradually be worn down by fatigue and near misses. A lower grade figure could start at say 6 and be useless after even a brief exchange. Of course instant KIA results could render that whole process moot. In one game, the SAS were in a Q Car, they scored some good results on the Free Taff ambush party who only narrowly passed their morale but then the driver was hit and badly wounded, followed by the guy with the ingrams. It all went downhill from there.....
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Try leave no man behind free download pdf from Victorian-steel.com
Enjoy
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Look at OSC ;)
I second that.
I haven't tried it out yet (I only got them yesterday) but they're a very nice set of rules, well presented and although slim include a nice table for force/table size/no. of turns, a mission generator, an easy to use set of stats which are highly flexible, and a wide range of weapons and weapon traits. I now want a multibarrel rocket launcher....
All players play during a turn, and a card deck introduces some randomness to events - I think I'm a fan of 'unhappy resident'.
A very easy to use army builder rounds off the rule set, and the Evil Bear website provides free downloads for templates and counters. A handful of example forces from 100 points (5-10 models in the samples provided) to 300 points. The infantry design characteristics are flexible enough to range from (I'd say) Cold War to near future - Evil Bear produce a nice suit with a general purpose machine gun - although it can extend the range backwards if the range of weapons available is limited. P.A. is of course possible too if no zombies, aliens or other non-humans are excluded. The forces given as an example of use of the force builder depict modern troops, insurgents, Mad Max types and a fully suited near-future unit.
The 50 page booklet provides a full set of skirmish rules, and a number of sequels are promised - as Mr Evil points out, the second is WIP, and introduces vehicles and specialists and larger forces. It appears that more is to come later, including more sci fi-oriented stuff.
As a bonus, my shopping experience from Evil Bear was excellent - http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=86073.msg1058838#msg1058838 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=86073.msg1058838#msg1058838)
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Does anyone else have any experience of using OSC?
Thanks, J
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There will also be upcomming support for OSC in Wargames illistrated including a feature in an upcomming issue :)
Its not your typical game of move and shoot, it has diferent modes for move and different modes of shooting, its also incredably tactical, rather than lots of rules you have actions, these actions are the rules in effect, so what action you choose to do effects your tactics, some forces will prefer some actions to others, you even have options of what types of attack or defence you take in close combat, although with modern games close combat is rather rare.
If your at PAW 2016 I'm there for the 2 days running demo's and any body with a MOD 90 can recieve a 15% discount.
Matt
just recieved this morning a preview copy of issue 341 of wargames illustrated, has a full review and 4 page feature on the OSC game exsplaing some of the mechanics. So may help those on the fence.
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Ordered Mr Evil.
I hear good reports :)
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I have not played any of the rule sets you asked about, but you can download the Chain Reaction rules from 2 Hour Wargames. They are great and easily modded. It includes a mechanic similar to suppression and does not utilize turn based movement/interactions that lead to see-saw battles. When minis come within line of sight with one another, they fight it out simultaneously. It works very well, and I haven't found a simple skirmish rule set that represents combat better.
For example, you can toss grenades nearby enemy figs to suppress them, as your forces flank the suppressed units and take them out. Similarly, you can just choose to simulate the effect of a flashbang device by using the grenade rules and ignoring damage and still assault a building with an advantage to the assaulting units.
Worth every penny...and like I said, it is free.