Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Peithetairos on January 07, 2016, 11:14:09 PM
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Hi all,
I finally got around writing down my thoughts on Agema Miniatures' Punic War ranges.
I look at their plastic boxes, that is legionaries, velites and Hannibal's Veterans and a selection of metal and resin characters.
I cover in some detail scope of the range, casting and sculpting quality, poses, conversion potential, value for money, customer service and most importantly historical accuracy.
Agema Miniatures Review (https://daggerandbrush.wordpress.com/2016/01/07/romans-advance-a-review-of-agema-miniatures-republican-romans-and-carthaginians/)
(https://daggerandbrush.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_0441.jpg?w=474)
My conclusion:
(https://daggerandbrush.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/review-box3.png)
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Great review, and is much appreciated. I hope to see more additions to this range in the future and some pictures of the elephant listed on their website!
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Would the elephant happen to be in plastic?
cheers
James
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The elephant is metal. I think for Agema the costs of plastic casting would be prohibitive for such a low turnover item.
There is a picture on facebook of the elephant:
https://www.facebook.com/538299872848542/photos/a.543341429011053.130609.538299872848542/1102579679753889/?type=3&theater
Looks very nice in my opinion and versions with howdah will also be released at a later stage.
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Thank you for the info. A shame, but understandable.
cheers
James
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Thanks for the Review. Agree with your comments - I also found Agema very easy to deal with.
Will form a unit of Carthaginian Veterans and plan to use the more 'Roman' figures (ie, Triarii and Velites) as Italian allies - with spare shields from my Victrix Carthaginians. I found it difficult to attach the metal heads (no lugs) but managed using green stuff and super glue.
The metal command are excellent sculpts if a tad smaller than the plastic other ranks.
Hope to get these done sometime in 2016..........
Garry
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Hi,
I liked your quick review of the Agema range. Could you put some more words around why you thought that? Reason being I am looking at starting a Carthaginian force in either Metals or Plastic and am looking to what manufacture would be best.
cheers
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Thanks for the review of the Agema range in which you make some good points but I have to say that I was slightly dissapointed when I bought them. I have both the plastic and the metal romans (velite, legionnaires and command figures). I thought the poses for the plastics were very static and at complete odds with the metal figures which were almost too dynamic in comparison. I don't belive that limitations in casting plastic prevent reasonably dynamic poses.
The selection of bodies in the legionary set (only 5) each with a different set of armour meant that the poses available were too uniform. This is especially true when you consider that one of them was kneeling (triarii again!!!) with only one body wearing a chest protector making a realistic hastati unit almost impossible. Command figures have to be bought separately.
Whilst the sculpting was good on individual parts, the figures when fitted together do not look natural. The heads, with no discernible neck, cannot be easily posed into different positions. The cloaks for the velites don't sit well and you have to use an unarmoured legionary body to get any pose that is throwing javelins/pilum.
Finally the cheap trick of adding different heads on Roman bodies for Carthaginians might work for a limited number of units, but it suggests that they have increased their range when they actually haven't.
I have managed to mix some Agema into my (mostly Victrix) legions but on a scale of 1 in 10 for the Hastati and Princepes and 1 in 3 for the velite (which are the best of the bunch). My triarii on the other hand are almost 80% Agema (see the kneeling pose can be useful).
A pity as I had such high hopes for Agema when they were first launched but overall I prefer Victrix. Their range is excellent including Romans, Italians and Carthaginians (with Spanish, Samnites and Numidians to come), their poses are more dynamic and certainly more realistic overall and their conversion potential (especially with such a wide range of heads and shields etc) enormous. Overall I give Agema C+ but Victrix A- (It would be higher but for the lack of cavalry).
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An interesting thread which confirms me in my view that 'reviews' are merely the personal preferences or prejudices of someone or other. I've never bought or declined to buy anything based on a review, and I certainly won't start now at my age! If I were doing the Republican period I'd probably buy figures from several sources for the look of the game, so room for both ranges, if they weren't in plastic of course.
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@markw: You find a much more in depth review on my blog, where my reasoning is outlined in detail. I only posted the conclusion here for people with little time.
@Mithridates: I decided to pin the heads and close any gaps with greenstuff. I think this is a necessity with any hybrid sets. You coudl also use epoxy glue, that should do the trick. I do not own the Carthaginian metal command yet, is the difference in size appreciable or inside human tolerances?
Yankeepedlar01: I agree, all a reviewer can do is to make sure he or she explains his/her reasoning well and I hope I did this. In addition the pictures will tell you if you personally like the sculpting etc. Just as a good historian one should always crosscheck references and not rely on one review only. I will actually add an "Other Reviews" section to my review, so that people can compare.
@Hu Rhu: Thank you for adding your view to the thread. As yankeepedlar01 says reviews have an element of opinion in them and cannot be entirely objective. However, I feel it is necessary to add some notes on my blog about my preferences to make the rating system more transparent. I shall do so in due course.
I would still like to reply to your points, but please keep in mind that this reflects my opinion and does not aim to discredit you, rather I would like to put my review in a proper context.
Static Poses:
I agree that the plastics are more static than the metals. I feel that metals can have more undercuts etc. without the need to have multipart sprues etc. I do not say plastics cannot be dynamic, as evidenced by GW. I think the legionaries represent well advancing troops that get ready for battle. I subscribe to the idea Queseda (2006, 6ff.) elaborates on that Roman maniples did not fight in neatly dressed rectangular ranks, but rather
“in dense ‘clouds’ … this formation is still a recognizable one, keeping a strict unit and sub-unit system, and using the all-important standards as focal points. … This is also not a dense skirmish line, but a battle line, although its centurions would not be much concerned with keeping regular ranks once fighting started, but just with having men grouped round their standards and ready to expand and compress their ranks” (Quesada,2006, 7).
I feel here the dynamic metal poses fit in well, while more static poses would be in the back awaiting battle. I also think that missiles like pila were exchanged for a much longer time than only the initial moments before battlelines met (cf. the collection of sources in Zhmodikov, 2000, 68-70 and Quesada, 2006, 3-4). Here again it makes sense to not have all legionaries throw their pila at the same time.
Bottom line is that in my opinion (and that is what history is all about, educated guesses ;)) the poses available reflect my idea of ancient warfare well. However, I did deduct some points for the lack of utility of some poses like the kneeling Triarius.
Depicting Hastati
Given that Princeps, Hastati and Triarii had almost the same equipment and Hastati and Principes looked possibly very similar, I rather see the problem in not being able to depict many Triarii, as mentioned in the review.
Command Packs
Seperate command can be good for some and an inconvenience for others. If you get an army deal you do get command.
Sculpting style
For me the miniatures look natural, there is no arguing about this as it comes down to personal tastes and viewing habits. Here the review is entirely subjective. You can pose the heads, but you may need to pin them and use some greenstuff. This is an extra step and can be inconvenient.
I agree that another throwing pose would have been good with pectoral or chainmail.
Velites Cloak
The cloak fits very well in one position, any other position, say the cloak falling down the back would require greenstuff surgery. I did it with a Frostgrave conversion, but again, it is inconvenient. This is relfected in the 60% conversion potential grade.
Veteran Set
Offering a head conversion set for Hannibal's veterans is not a solution for huge amounts of troops, but works for one or two units. Agema is comparatively small and I can understand the reasoning behind the conversion set. I understand there will be entirely new boxes soon.
Victrix
Good to read that you were able to mix and match, as I was not sure if they would work. Victrix sets are excellent and I will get some Iberians myself.
I think I would rate Victrix similar to Agema, but potentially higher given the scope and conversion potential of the range. I personally do not prefer their slightly 'chunkier' look, but that is again my personal preference.
References:
Quesada, F. S. (2006a). Not so different: individual fighting techniques and small unit tactics of Roman and Iberian armies. In: P. François, P. Moret & S. Péré-Noguès (Eds.), L’Hellénisation en Méditerranée Occidentale au temps des guerres puniques. Actes du Colloque International de Toulouse, 31 mars-2 avril 2005, Pallas, 70 (pp. 245-263).
Zhmodikov, A. (2000). Roman Republican Heavy Infantrymen in Battle (IV-II Centuries B.C.). Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte, 49.1, 67-78.
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Peithetairos
You asked about the size difference between the plastic Agema and metal Carthaginian command figures. Very fine sculpts which, when painted, should fit in OK.
Thanks again for the amount of work you put into all this - I found the detail on the blog very interesting.
Like you I will be adding some Victrix Spanish to Hannibal's army.
Garry
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Really like the Agema figures and hope they will continue to bring out sets. Very natural poses and IMHO anatomically correct.
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@Hu Rhu: Thank you for adding your view to the thread. As yankeepedlar01 says reviews have an element of opinion in them and cannot be entirely objective. However, I feel it is necessary to add some notes on my blog about my preferences to make the rating system more transparent. I shall do so in due course.
I would still like to reply to your points, but please keep in mind that this reflects my opinion and does not aim to discredit you, rather I would like to put my review in a proper context.
Likewise my intention was not to suggest that your review wasn't valid, simply that I had drawn other conclusions when comparing Agema with the other plastic offerings from Victrix. Of course views will be subjective but with luck anyone reading the thread will be able to make up his own mind based on a mix of opinions and will choose what he/she likes.
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Excellent, thank you for your imput again!
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Hi All,
Does anybody else think that the officer in Ageama's Hannibal's Veterans pack looks like Jeremy Corbin?
Would be OK to equip him with a "Trident"?
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Political controversies aside, I think you have a point there. ;D
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Jeremy Corbin, eh? Now that is a comparison I wasn't expecting! I am planning on adding a mounted Consul to the range - maybe I'll make him Cameron-esque?? :D
Greg - Agema
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For purposes of conversion, how do the Agema figures match up with the other plastics out there?
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For purposes of conversion, how do the Agema figures match up with the other plastics out there?
I have just used a bunch of the Agema heads on Victrix hoplite bodies and I think they work fine (don't have any photos yet sorry.)
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I will get some Victrix in a bit and can then also supply some photos with headswaps etc.
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That would be very cool!
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I have some made up. I will photo and post them up tonight.
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Cool!
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Here is a comparison shot. The figure on the left is a Victrix figure with an Agema head, whilst on the right is an Agema body with a Victrix head. Apologies for the shoddy camera work.
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s540/garybourne/IMAG0473_zps4mh93m7c.jpg) (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/garybourne/media/IMAG0473_zps4mh93m7c.jpg.html)
Whilst both work, the Agema head is slightly too large for the Victrix body, which needs to have most of the neck removed. Conversely the Victrix head doesn't sit well on the Agema body as there is no neck and you need to add one with a small pice of sprue.
Hope that helps.
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Below, some Victrix Greek hoplite bodies with Agema Carthaginian heads:
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/AdamPaulHayes/Forum%20Posts/1-DSC_8720.jpg)
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/AdamPaulHayes/Forum%20Posts/1-DSC_8722.jpg)
They are slightly smaller than the Victrix heads they replace but I think it still works okay. A lot of the Punic helmets are based on Hellenistic types so this also makes for a useful source of heads for later Successor troop types.
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Thanks for those pics! Looks good!
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I'm keen to get some of these Punic/Numidian heads but they aren't listed on the Agema Website. Anyone know how to get them ? (http://)
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I'm keen to get some of these Punic/Numidian heads but they aren't listed on the Agema Website. Anyone know how to get them ? (http://)
Have you tried writing Agema, and asking? The owner usually responds fairly promptly.
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I was thinking of getting the plastic roman box set from Agema, but hearing that there's only 5 different models is kinda disappointing.
Also, I noticed that Agema gives its republican principes subarmalis armor with or without a pectoral. Is that historically accurate? I haven't seen any depictions of rank and file using subarmalis until the Marian reforms.
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If you get the Hannibals Veternas you can have a few extra poses. ie this guy I just did
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Hi,
Here is a Agema plastic Roman with Italian Allied head.
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Not sure why he came out as landscape photo, as I imported the pic as a portrait!!
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Cool. I've seen those heads on the Agema facebook page but again it's not listed on their Website. Where / how did you get it ?