Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Charlie_ on January 22, 2016, 10:23:22 PM
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So, last year I got back into wargaming after about 10 years away from it. Since then I've been busy assembling and painting an army.
I've had in my mind what sort of terrain I want to build, but couldn't really justify starting it until the army starts to take shape. Well, now is that time!
Much like I hadn't painted a miniature in over 10 years, I have built any terrain in even longer. And back then I was a teenager, and any terrain I did built was amateurish. Now, much like with my painting (which has strangely improved tenfold over my years away from the brushes), I want to build a gaming table and terrain that looks great, and just as importantly, looks realistic and believable. I'm all ready to start buying supplies and start making a mess, but there are a few things I want to put past people first. I will use this thread to enquire about all these things as I approach them.
So without further ado....
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#1 - The gaming board
I'm going to use three 2' by 4' boards of chipboard which slot together with a tongue-and-groove, to make a 6 by 4 table which will easily store in three pieces under the bed, but will be solid and rigid when on the table.
What I'm looking for advice on is texturing and painting it. I plan to texture it, probably paint and drybrush, and then flock on top, which I'm sure is how most people go about it.
What's the best method?
1 - PVA, sand everywhere, then paint and drybrush??
2 - Paint mixed with sand, then drybrush?
3 - Sand/PVA/etc mix, then paint and drybrush?
4 - Something else?
What sort of paint would you suggest I get for this? Will need to be in a relatively large quantity.
After flocking, I might use some sort of spray-on watered down PVA to seal it all together. I've heard of 'scenic cement'... Is this basically watered down PVA in a spray bottle? If so, I can make that myself, which I might do.
Bear in mind the boards should be fairly durable, so I don't want flock and chips of paint all over my living room. They will live under my bed, and come out every now and then for the times that my living room becomes the games room.
Any hints / tips / suggestions / methods you swear by will be much appreciated! If you have any pics, both of the building process and the finished product, even better!
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Just going to throw out a suggestion here. Why not make and use a terrain mat to place on your three tongue and groove boards. The pros are that it will weigh less, cost less, is transportable, and be easier to store since you just roll up the mat without worrying about damaging the boards. If you are interested then follow this link for a good how to video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtRMoIZfPPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtRMoIZfPPg) There are several other videos on the same subject so have a look around. I made four different sizes in a day for under thirty pounds. Out of one tarp I made a two foot circular mat, a two foot square mat, a three foot square mat and a four foot square mat.
If you are dead set on texturing a board then the paint and sand mix is about your best bet for appearance. Just remember that it will weigh a ton and the sand can come off so you want to add another layer of watered down PVA to fix the sand in place. Another option would be to use the latex caulking method as described in the video for the terrain mat. It will also give you a good texture and it will weigh considerably less. The caulking is not hard like a sand board so you will not damage your models when they come in contact with it.
For flocking just use watered down PVA. Try not to cover huge areas with one color since that looks unrealistic. Make test pieces to develop the look you want. The scenic cement is similar to watered down PVA, it is not an magic cure since flock will still fall off and it is a bit overpriced. If you apply a decent texture to the board you really do not need to add much additional flocking. You can just paint the surface and add spots of flock here and there as accents.
I am sure that others will have many more suggestions. So try to gather as many options as possible before you jump in and make a decision. Hope my suggestions helped.
Snitchy sends.
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Thanks for the tips, I'll keep them in mind!
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I'm going to use three 2' by 4' boards of chipboard which slot together with a tongue-and-groove, to make a 6 by 4 table
What I'm looking for advice on is texturing and painting it.
1 - PVA, sand everywhere, then paint and drybrush??
What sort of paint would you suggest I get for this? Will need to be in a relatively large quantity.
basically watered down PVA in a spray bottle? If so, I can make that myself, which I might do.
Bear in mind the boards should be fairly durable
Any hints / tips / suggestions / methods you swear by will be much appreciated! If you have any pics, both of the building process and the finished product, even better!
There you go: This is what I did:
After 2 years of doing nothing on it I finally managed to finish it within two weeks and can show the photos.
This shows the board sanded and soaked in white glue:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Cz6uU5O7tVg/UuRGheHAQpI/AAAAAAAAG4g/0MFoqSahfgw/s1600/Kinderbilder+001.JPG)
Complete board, dried and ready for painting:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y-5ceVnVZPA/UuRGhaglaYI/AAAAAAAAG4o/vT_0WcvOwfY/s1600/Kinderbilder+002.JPG)
Painted in basic chocolate brown (three steps of highlighting drybrushes to follow after drying):
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ti1KZJD5r1I/UuRGhudhvtI/AAAAAAAAG4k/G0mTco0H1mM/s1600/Kinderbilder+003.JPG)
Finished board (drybrushed, the occasional static grass added and rails cleaned):
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TZvsY1vQ0-0/UuRGiqo0dOI/AAAAAAAAG44/-8G-_yrjr-A/s1600/Kinderbilder+017.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HhX1GbsLrpk/UuRGoN-MJ3I/AAAAAAAAG5o/K9tzrA4AMk8/s1600/Kinderbilder+023.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MYfgmREEdNI/UuRGp760-5I/AAAAAAAAG5w/jlbNGH8LDNY/s1600/Kinderbilder+024.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nGBY3nQ_Qck/UuRGrKSocOI/AAAAAAAAG6A/xWtkoVnf_Og/s1600/Kinderbilder+026.JPG)
Switches to cut currency on the loops for marshalling more than one train on the layout:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ik-zMr37VFk/UuRGm__hO4I/AAAAAAAAG5Y/zMXs1a78QXA/s1600/Kinderbilder+021.JPG)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1dSe1HMrjQQ/UuRGp_CUvZI/AAAAAAAAG50/mmKzRefvhw8/s1600/Kinderbilder+025.JPG)
Power intake:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ND5ImLkPfcM/UuRGsReNYII/AAAAAAAAG6I/c_eyYAfgxOI/s1600/Kinderbilder+027.JPG)
And this is what it looks like when folded:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aWxFSFNyACA/UuV0RZMqlrI/AAAAAAAAG6o/uC7QqjccjeI/s1600/Kinderbilder+006.JPG)
You can witness that it works here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hzZ_bffpzM&feature=youtu.be
The sand was simply spread and modeled a bit over the boards. These were thoroughly sealed by a thick painting of resin based paint before to avoid any warping by moisture that would crawl into the plywood.
Then I soaked the sand surface with a very fluent PVA/water mix and let erverything dry for two days before painting the sand with brown acrylic wall paint from the DIY.
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First couple of pages of this might give you an idea :)
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=70094.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=70094.0)
There's also Silent Invaders GoT thread over on the fantasy board.
cheers
James
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There are a few other threads you should search for
The F&IW, Zulu and Cave Wars tables by Captain Blood
A recent workbench thread on basing textures.
A recent workbench thread by me asking for tips on applying static grass with coarse turf and tufts.
If you check my GoT thread in fantasy you'll see that I do it differently to many on here. The Gloop (paint/sand/pva) onto foam that has been shaped then covered in filler is very popular as it is very effective. However, I use 30cm sq tiles rather than big boards and with the smaller footprint I find that gloop doesn't give me the control I want. My preference then is to apply the sand and then paint it with the growies subsequently getting a shot of hairspray rather than scenic cement. The Got thread has the full process but there's a brief summary on my project website. :)
http://www.silentinvader.uk/index_w_gtn_index_terrain-making.html (http://www.silentinvader.uk/index_w_gtn_index_terrain-making.html)
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There you go: This is what I did:
Very nice! So that's PVA > sand > paint. Looks good....
First couple of pages of this might give you an idea :)
Hadn't seen that before, looks very nice.
Actually, this pic of yours looks like perhaps just what I want.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk138/jimbibbly/Terrain/Dorset%201700s/4979CF8C-F8C8-4BB5-85D9-9AAB38ADB23E_zpsawez8bqr.jpg)
What is your recipe for the 'goop' you apply, and the colours you use for drybrushing up to that nice sandy tone?
There are a few other threads you should search for
The F&IW, Zulu and Cave Wars tables by Captain Blood
A recent workbench thread on basing textures.
A recent workbench thread by me asking for tips on applying static grass with coarse turf and tufts.
If you check my GoT thread in fantasy you'll see that I do it differently to many on here. The Gloop (paint/sand/pva) onto foam that has been shaped then covered in filler is very popular as it is very effective. However, I use 30cm sq tiles rather than big boards and with the smaller footprint I find that gloop doesn't give me the control I want. My preference then is to apply the sand and then paint it with the growies subsequently getting a shot of hairspray rather than scenic cement. The Got thread has the full process but there's a brief summary on my project website. :)
http://www.silentinvader.uk/index_w_gtn_index_terrain-making.html (http://www.silentinvader.uk/index_w_gtn_index_terrain-making.html)
Yes, I've seen all of those threads I think, including your recent GoT one which I am following with great interest! : )
All very helpful folks.
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Study lots of 1:1 photos of what you want to create for your table. :)
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Study lots of 1:1 photos of what you want to create for your table. :)
Yes, that seems like a top idea!
Thanks for the pointers so far folks. Today I went to Wilko and bought a selection of emulsion tester pots in various browns and greys, so I'm going to try out some different techniques and colours on a few chipboard offcuts, and I should hopefully have some pics to share later this week.
And if jimbibbly is reading, I would really love to know the colours and stages you used for painting the board on the picture I liked!
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And if jimbibbly is reading, I would really love to know the colours and stages you used for painting the board on the picture I liked!
Certainly am :)
I actually though it was on the thread somewhere but I can't be bothered to look lol
The goop is a mix of wood glue, fine sand, ready mixed filler, powder filler, sandtex and a some brown paint thrown in to give it the greyish colour. There's no recipe for the amounts, I just throw in what seems right.
Then there are a series of art craft paints drybrushed on top. I use the Pebeo paints and the warmer tans etc. The drybrushing is random so some of the base colour comes through.
Next is a few localised washes of watered down Windsor and Newton brown ink to break up the monotomy.
After that it's three different types of flocking. A granule based one, a static grass based one and the small, dark clump foliage for the final one.
A few areas of 'water effects' (that are beginning to bloody well bubble >:( ) and you're done.
Experiment would be the best advice really untill you're happy with a system, then write it down so it's easier to apply it at a later date and keep all your terrain the same.
Hope that's a help :)
cheers
James
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That does help, thanks. :)
The idea of adding a darker wash in random patches over the drybrushing is a nice one.
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Well, I tried texturing up one test board using sand methods. Half I did by with PVA > sand > paint, the other I did with a mix of paint, PVA and sand. They are ok, I guess....
However I then found this great little tutorial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7Nizz1lNU
That looks like a great method - basically texturing the board by applying filler and stippling it. Looks like a much nicer texture than the sand techniques.
I'm gonna try it out! :)
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Charlie,
If I may, I hope I can convince you to forego using the tongue and groove except as experimental platforms. I can virtually guarantee that the tongue portion will become impossible to match with the groove very quickly if you are taking them apart and putting them back together. Sounds like you've already starting adding texture so too late for the table saw expedient of sawing off the groove nice and clean - and plugging and sanding the grooves with wood filler. I don't remember if you said you were using some sort of particle board or MDF but, if so, that will only exacerbate the problem. If this tongue and groove challenge doesn't beset you, then you are fortunate indeed.
Otherwise, hope you create a great set of boards - you certainly have lots of wonderful folks pitching in to offer guidance. And welcome back to the hobby!
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Well, I tried texturing up one test board using sand methods. Half I did by with PVA > sand > paint, the other I did with a mix of paint, PVA and sand. They are ok, I guess....
However I then found this great little tutorial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7Nizz1lNU
That looks like a great method - basically texturing the board by applying filler and stippling it. Looks like a much nicer texture than the sand techniques.
I'm gonna try it out! :)
If you are newish to terrain, I highly recommend giving his videos a good peruse, Mel is great and covers a lot of different techniques. :)
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Charlie,
If I may, I hope I can convince you to forego using the tongue and groove except as experimental platforms. I can virtually guarantee that the tongue portion will become impossible to match with the groove very quickly if you are taking them apart and putting them back together. Sounds like you've already starting adding texture so too late for the table saw expedient of sawing off the groove nice and clean - and plugging and sanding the grooves with wood filler. I don't remember if you said you were using some sort of particle board or MDF but, if so, that will only exacerbate the problem. If this tongue and groove challenge doesn't beset you, then you are fortunate indeed.
Otherwise, hope you create a great set of boards - you certainly have lots of wonderful folks pitching in to offer guidance. And welcome back to the hobby!
Thanks for the tips. I haven't started the actual boards yet, I'm just doing some little tests ones. Once they look good, I will then start building terrain, and won't make the actual boards until I have enough painted figures and terrain for a game.
The thing is, this tonge-and-groove chipboard is exactly what I used 'back in the day' and it served me well then. Never had any problems with it. It's this stuff:
http://www.diy.com/departments/durelis-chipboard-board-l2400mm-w600mm-th18mm/651339_BQ.prd
However, you could well persuade me to go the usual MDF route! The reason I like the idea of it is that the tongue and groove will keep the boards slotted together, and they won't get knocked apart mid-game. But I guess if no one else ever has that problem, there's no reason why I should...
If you are newish to terrain, I highly recommend giving his videos a good peruse, Mel is great and covers a lot of different techniques. :)
Yes, I've been watching lots of his videos and have picked up some great tips!
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Here's a step by step of my own. Much more basic than many of those shared already but it does the job and was dead simple to construct:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=84856.msg1042864#msg1042864
(http://s19.postimg.org/tn4ykmgqb/12283126_10156265311870597_978637933_n.jpg)
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A few areas of 'water effects' (that are beginning to bloody well bubble >:( )
Yours too?
You see, it can happen to the best of us lol
Looking forward to what you come up with Charlie_
There's a lot of proven techniques and experience in all the various threads that have been quoted at you so far, so you should be in good stead :)
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This is how I made my 2' x 3' board for 15 mm skirmish:
1. Apply PVA with brush
2. Add sand
3. Let it dry
4. Apply 1:1 PVA/water mix (preferrably with baby on shoulder)
5. Let it dry
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t659/Ockman/Pysslo/IMG_1221_zpsddxwccu2.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/Ockman/media/Pysslo/IMG_1221_zpsddxwccu2.jpg.html)
6. Undercoat with Burnt Umber Acryllics
7. Basecoat with Burnt Umber Acryllics
8. Drybrush with Burnt Sienna Acryllics
9. Light drybrush with Grey Umber Acryllics
10. Touch up with Soft Tone Wash wherever the last drybrush got to heavy
11. Use Instagram to make an artistic picture!
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t659/Ockman/Pysslo/IMG_20151208_124040_zpsjuuucfeq.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/Ockman/media/Pysslo/IMG_20151208_124040_zpsjuuucfeq.jpg.html)
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Thanks for the examples and the step by step. BTW who says men can't multitask?
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Thanks for the examples and the step by step. BTW who says men can't multitask?
It's a common misconception that women can multitask - noone can multitask!
The human brain is somewhat like an old computer: we might seem to multitask, but actually we are rapidly switching between tasks. Although holding a baby on your shoulder hardly counts as a task ;)
Here is an undoctored picture of my gaming board:
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t659/Ockman/Pysslo/DSC_2440_zpsbdtszt5b.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/Ockman/media/Pysslo/DSC_2440_zpsbdtszt5b.jpg.html)
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Well here's my completed test board. I'm very pleased with it!
The filler stippling technique worked a treat, much better than using sand I think. After several layers of drybrushing and a wash, it looked so good it seemed a shame to cover it in flock! I mixed up a 'special recipe' of two parts static grass, one part light green flock and one part a darker flock.
(http://i.imgur.com/fSG81j1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/UV1SxAc.jpg)
Does anyone have any tips for taking good photos of terrain and such, including shots of the whole army? I can take good enough shots of individual models with a lightbox I bought, but when it comes to this sort of thing I could do with some new tips!
One thing I'm kind of regretting is how I based my figures, as it would be nice if they matched the board perfectly. It's not far off as you can see, but I wish I could magically remove the static grass on the bases and replace it with my new flock mix!
Perhaps when I do the movement trays, I can have them as a sort of half-way between the board and the bases?
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Try a 'drybrush' top coat of your terrain on your existing bases, will match better. Or, simply get a matching color of paint(s) and actually dry brush your bases, again, will match better. I am working to have my based figures match closely to my terrain but I consider it a master modeler goal (not that I'm a master modeler!) - one we seek as we get well and far into the hobby.