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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on February 10, 2016, 06:00:12 AM

Title: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on February 10, 2016, 06:00:12 AM
I have copied this from the post I just put on the Dux Rampant forum:

Moving on from Orcs and the like (by the way, great thread on Lead Adventure Forum, Hobgoblin) a few more things to ponder.
The first is the least important.  If it is clear that orcs are not green, can we decide what colour trolls were?  I'm guessing a mix of greys and browns as they turn into stone in the sun and I would assume that they are therefore made of the earth itself.

Next is - pointy ears or not for elves?  I believe there is nothing concrete either way in Tolkien.   We can be fairly certain that few elves were blond(e) - most were dark haired.  They were not thin as in many fantasy games, but were quite strong in body (although didn't have the same bulk as men).  My feeling is elves are much like humans in overall shape, except they are a little more lithe (but still possess great strength), are taller and more graceful.  Clearly, they are ageless (not necessarily young, but have a quality where it is hared to pin down an age), much better looking (although at least two elf maidens enjoyed a bit of rough), and I feel the ears are probably slightly more pointy, but not obviously so.  Therefore most thinner human miniatures are suitable for elves.

Finally, the biggie! Magic.  How to depict this in Dragon Rampant?  The elves didn't really understand the term. Magic seemed something that was innate to the individual, not something learnt from a book or scroll.  Most magic seems rooted in the nature of an individual or object. Gandalf using a ward to keep a door closed in Moria (doors close and can be locked) and the Balrog trying to open the same door.  Gandalf uses pine cones to make burning missiles to fire at the wargs.  Luthien uses the woolfs hame and the cloak of Thuringwethil to alter the appearance of herself and Beren.  This is more than just wearing a disguise, but she also needs these items to create her deception - it couldn't be done without some "raw materials".
If the magic is particularly powerful the individual seems to have to give something of themselves to make it eg the One Ring gives Sauron power over the various races of Middle Earth, but he is also tied to the Ring and, ultimately, is left vulnerable.  Morgoth diminishes in power as he creates his various evil works or things to do his bidding.
Some magic is more in the nature of craft.  Such as swords with special powers (normally quite subtle), Silmarils, rings.  I wonder whether this extends to things like Barad Dur and Dol Guldur.  There is something magical in their construction and they are destroyed in magical ways - Galadriel throws own the walls of Dul Guldur and opens it's pits at the end of the War of the Ring.  Rather than blasting down the walls, I see her dispelling the magic that wasv used to build and strengthen the walls.
The final type of magic seems to be song, such as that of Luthien to make the denizens of Angband go to sleep.

The magic is Tolkien is of a more subtle nature. I can see things like Bog Thee, Befuddle Thee and Dragon's Breath fit well.  Power Bolt possibly doesn't fit so well.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on February 10, 2016, 06:03:57 AM
I will just quickly add that some of the comments about magic I had seen on another blog some time ago, so this is somewhat plagiarised.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: throwsFireball on February 10, 2016, 06:09:00 AM
From what I remember, didn't Morgoth basically turn into a walking magical nuclear meltdown near the end and most of his power was squandered just by him walking around and spreading his evil?
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Arthadan on February 10, 2016, 07:06:00 AM
I have copied this from the post I just put on the Dux Rampant forum:

Moving on from Orcs and the like (by the way, great thread on Lead Adventure Forum, Hobgoblin) a few more things to ponder.
The first is the least important.  If it is clear that orcs are not green, can we decide what colour trolls were?  I'm guessing a mix of greys and browns as they turn into stone in the sun and I would assume that they are therefore made of the earth itself.

Only the Stone-trolls turn to stone! Remember the Hill-trolls pushing Grond and wielding heavy hammers in the Pelennor, or the Olog-hai. I'll post some quotes later. Also, an important thing to conside regarding Trolls is size, I think most of them shouldn't be taller than twice the normal height of a person (at most).

Quote
Next is - pointy ears or not for elves?  I believe there is nothing concrete either way in Tolkien.   We can be fairly certain that few elves were blond(e) - most were dark haired.  They were not thin as in many fantasy games, but were quite strong in body (although didn't have the same bulk as men).  My feeling is elves are much like humans in overall shape, except they are a little more lithe (but still possess great strength), are taller and more graceful.  Clearly, they are ageless (not necessarily young, but have a quality where it is hared to pin down an age), much better looking (although at least two elf maidens enjoyed a bit of rough), and I feel the ears are probably slightly more pointy, but not obviously so.  Therefore most thinner human miniatures are suitable for elves.

This one is easily adressed. Here is a description of Hobbits in one of the Tolkien letters:

Quote
I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)

So both, Hobbits and Elves, have slightly pointy ears.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 10, 2016, 08:11:38 AM
The cave troll in Moria was "greenish" (and, like the Pobble and George MacDonald's goblins, lacks toes):

"A huge arm and shoulder, with a dark skin of greenish scales, wa thrust through the widening gap. Then a great, flat toeless foot was forced through below."
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: jon_1066 on February 10, 2016, 09:05:30 AM
The great thing about power bolt is that you can simply rename it to Flaming Pine Cones and keep the same effect!
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Arthadan on February 10, 2016, 09:09:50 AM
Quote
But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur.

Maybe Olog skin could be similar to Orc skin? However if they were "harder than stone", I guess they'd be covered in scales.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 10, 2016, 09:26:23 AM
Maybe Olog skin could be similar to Orc skin? However if they were "harder than stone", I guess they'd be covered in scales.


And they're also "quite unlike" Orcs in "fashion of body". The hill-trolls of Gorgoroth at the end of Book V of LotR are widely assumed to be Olog-hai; they appear to have scales.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Vermis on February 10, 2016, 11:11:53 AM
As Hobgoblin mentioned, ironically trolls were green! Although I personally think there was a bit more variety in them. In The Hobbit, with Bert, Bill and Tom:

Quote
Three very large persons sitting around a very large fire of beech-logs... But they were trolls. Obviously trolls. Even Bilbo, in spite of his sheltered life, could see that: from the great heavy faces of them, and their size, and the shape of their legs, not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all, at all.

No mention of their being green, which might have been notable enough to, er, note. That might indicate a skintone that Bilbo didn't think was too unfamiliar. Although maybe the sheer size and shape of them was enough to take in. And the colour-distorting effect of the fire on a dark night, in a forest. But that might be thinking too hard about it. ;D

(Also, mentions of 'the shape of their legs' and 'toeless feet' makes me imagine troll legs more like this (http://images.freeimages.com/images/premium/previews/9738/9738413-elephant-hind-legs.jpg) than this (http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/120883/120883,1286565856,1/stock-photo-study-musculature-of-male-athlete-s-leg-62591098.jpg). But that's even more my own wild imaginings)

Elves: aye. It seems like they were 'human+' rather than humanoid stick insects. (Can't remember if it was explicitly mentioned somewhere) I also agree that magic was largely an innate ability or passed-on power, though from the way the elves describe it, I think it's a little difficult for non-'magical' beings to imagine. Like describing the colour red to a dog, or the colours that birds (http://www.bristol.ac.uk/biology/research/behaviour/vision/4d.html) see to a human.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 10, 2016, 11:40:53 AM
As Hobgoblin mentioned, ironically trolls were green! Although I personally think there was a bit more variety in them.

I think there's plenty of support for variety. Only the cave troll is described as "greenish". Trolls seem to have had diverse origins:

"I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence... they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls, beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested." (JRRT's letters)

And no one knows what was involved in producing the Olog-hai:

"That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known."

So I think there are good grounds for assuming a variety of colours. There's no wrong or right answer for anything other than the cave troll, as far as I know.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Charlie_ on February 10, 2016, 11:44:19 AM
Do elves have beards?
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 10, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
Do elves have beards?

Cirdan does in LotR - as do one or two others in the Silmarillion, I think. Tolkien says somewhere that they don't usually have beards until they reach "the third cycle of life" - but I don't think that's ever defined.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Conquistador on February 10, 2016, 04:19:23 PM
I wait to read more with anticipation.   :-*

Good questions.   :)

I loved OD&D but it definitely was a spin-off and slightly twisted one at that from (more than just) LOTR, so it and GW made some misrepresentations of Tolkienian fantasy elements that have become "accepted" by many fantasy gamers.  Not wrong, just not LOTR canon.

Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hammers on February 10, 2016, 06:45:31 PM
I do not think Tolkien, from a narrative point of view, was meant to be fully understood. I therefore think a magic system for ME should be subtle and just "typically themed" to each race. Something like...
* Elves: enhancement of all things good, repulsion of evil, prolongment
* Dwarves: heightened craftsmanship
* Good men: little magic abilities apart from healing, high men excel in most endeavors and can draw strength from fate
* Beornings: shape changing
* Hobbits: finding things, luck, hiding
* Evil men: witchcraft
* Orcs: corruption

Something like that.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hammers on February 10, 2016, 06:47:49 PM
Do elves have beards?

They may. Cirdan had a beard.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nic-e on February 10, 2016, 10:41:33 PM
The problem with magic in Tolkien is that it only really has two settings. Either subtle (gandalf inspiring bilbo to go on his quests using the ring of fire ect. ) Or GODLY OVERPOWERED! (the war against morgoth ect.)  There are very few times when there is an in between, because magic is a direct product of pure divine power.
 
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 10, 2016, 10:45:23 PM
The problem with magic in Tolkien is that it only really has two settings. Either subtle (gandalf inspiring bilbo to go on his quests using the ring of fire ect. ) Or GODLY OVERPOWERED! (the war against morgoth ect.)  There are very few times when there is an in between, because magic is a direct product of pure divine power.
 

I think you can make a case for some practical "battle magic" too, though. Gandalf's pine cones have been mentioned, but there's also this:

"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

That's not a million miles from a DR-style power bolt.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Dilettante Gamer on February 10, 2016, 10:54:35 PM
I think you can make a case for some practical "battle magic" too, though. Gandalf's pine cones have been mentioned, but there's also this:

"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

That's not a million miles from a DR-style power bolt.

The man cites his evidence!  :)
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: throwsFireball on February 10, 2016, 11:22:30 PM
Funnily, it might be that he wasn't using magic (at least not a lot of magic) but instead using primitive science.

Kind of like the older versions of D&D with the somatic ingredient requirements for some spells which were always really stupid and over the top. Like a piece of metal wire in order to cast lightning bolt (acting like a lightning rod) and gunpowder for fireball.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nic-e on February 10, 2016, 11:28:18 PM
Funnily, it might be that he wasn't using magic (at least not a lot of magic) but instead using primitive science.

Kind of like the older versions of D&D with the somatic ingredient requirements for some spells which were always really stupid and over the top. Like a piece of metal wire in order to cast lightning bolt (acting like a lightning rod) and gunpowder for fireball.

If you haven't already, you should read the last ringbearer . It's a a telling of the story of the war of the ring from the point of view of sauron and mordor, with gandalf being a pagan religious despot determined to stop the progress offered by the enlightened nations and keep the races of middle earth trapped in believing his mysticism.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: throwsFireball on February 10, 2016, 11:35:10 PM
If you haven't already, you should read the last ringbearer . It's a a telling of the story of the war of the ring from the point of view of sauron and mordor, with gandalf being a pagan religious despot determined to stop the progress offered by the enlightened nations and keep the races of middle earth trapped in believing his mysticism.

I've heard of it, actually.

I was considering a similar setting for a campaign. Not-Mordor falls but the nations of man are overrun by orcs with much greater technological prowess (who, until now, were kept in some sort of thrall by Not-Sauron). Not-Middle Earth quickly becomes a thriving economy based around rampant industrialisation.

Players would play in the cusp of a new era, where humans, dwarves and halflings (elves long since extinct, as far as the majority of the population knows) are seeking emancipation and the possibility of travelling across the seas in a journey of exploration is there.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Conquistador on February 10, 2016, 11:42:54 PM
Mordor - enlightened.   :o.    o_o.

I wonder what the slaves of Mordor would say about enlightened.

Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nic-e on February 11, 2016, 12:00:14 AM
Mordor - enlightened.   :o.    o_o.

I wonder what the slaves of Mordor would say about enlightened.



The story is basically written on the principle of "history written by the victors" and in fact, the orcs are just men, made into monsters by the propaganda of kings and slowly failing pagan wizards who want to keep control of the ancient world, not loose it to sauron, who rather than being the literal devils assistant, is in fact a benign and progressive leader who is building his nation on technology science and rationality rather than magic.

Would you really call the hobbits enlightened? They essentially get press ganged/ tricked into doing the bidding of a wizard with the end goal of destabling a nation and destroying a species.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nicknorthstar on February 11, 2016, 12:26:40 AM
Trolls. I always thought Angus McBride's paintings got Trolls right: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/390898442633670338/
(hope the links work.) Green grey scaly skin. If you look at Angus's drawings he trys to capture that. If you look at the drawing of the Trolls by the man himself in the Hobbit, they have scaly skin.http://earing.80port.net/images/illust/jrrtolkien/The%20Trolls.jpg
 I concede there is an earlier drawing of the three trolls and Gandalf where the trolls are not scaly, but the trolls are pretty uninspiring in that drawing anyway.  :)

Pointy Ears in Elves. The letter from Tolkien quoted earlier is proof enough that he envisaged pointy ears on elves. There is also a sketch of two elves in a forest by Tolkien where the Elves have pointy ears (and very pointy shoes).

Magic. I think Tolkiens magic was influenced by Finnish folk lore, which he loved. I'm not a student of Finnish folk lore, but I was left with the impression magic was in song, the songs were spells that grew as the song went on. The best example is in the Silmarillion, in the story of Beren and Luthien, where the magic duel between Sauron and Finrod were magic songs. I'm not sure how to put that in game terms, it'd take some thought, maybe a system already has. In regards to Dragon Rampant, this is a game that is meant to be fast and simple, so a long singing duel doesn't really fit the style. I think the spells as they are work for ME, perhaps drop Bog Thee! Dragon's Breath & Stronger Shields. I would also say no Wizardlings, confining magic users to major characters like Gandalf, Galadriel and Lord of the Nazgul.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nicknorthstar on February 11, 2016, 12:42:11 AM
Last Ringbearer. I've never read that, but I had similar thoughts once, and raised eyebrows within my MERP group when i claimed Sauron was the good guy. The Prof was a right snob, bless him, and equated working class yobbos like myself to Orcs. So if you accept that Orcs might just be the proletariat, and Sauron being their rabble-rousing leader obsessed with industry and the power of the industrial working class, what do Elves and their running dog lackeys the Numenoreans look like? They look like reactionaries, obsessed with hereditary monarchy, and a rural based economy in the hands of an aristocracy. So as an urban proletariat working in industry, who sounds the better option to you.

I agree the idea doesn't hold up under deep analysis  lol
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Conquistador on February 11, 2016, 01:59:36 AM
Snip
I agree the idea doesn't hold up under deep analysis  lol

I will let that statement stand on it's own merits.

 ;).  :)

Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Vermis on February 11, 2016, 03:24:47 AM
I can foresee this topic going downhill fairly quickly.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: KGatch113 on February 11, 2016, 06:45:56 AM
I can foresee this topic going downhill fairly quickly.

Don't you mean......Underhill????
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: KGatch113 on February 11, 2016, 06:50:44 AM


I can remember a speech some gentlemen from the SCA gave us at our school in the late 70's, early 80's on LOTR, and one of them said Gandalf never cast a spell over 4th level. Maybe that is true, but I'd suspect he cast magic behind the scenes, mostly to augment himself. In DnD terms ....( I see Istari wizards more as clerics than mages, but I'm more familiar with Wizard spells in that game) Gandalf would have been casting spells like Mage Armor, Shield to protect himself, maybe Tenser's Transformation for fighting, etc We have to assume he boosted himself in some way when fighting the Balrog ( in a gaming sense that is....).

Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Daeothar on February 11, 2016, 07:57:17 AM
The story is basically written on the principle of "history written by the victors" and in fact, the orcs are just men, made into monsters by the propaganda of kings and slowly failing pagan wizards who want to keep control of the ancient world, not loose it to sauron, who rather than being the literal devils assistant, is in fact a benign and progressive leader who is building his nation on technology science and rationality rather than magic.

Would you really call the hobbits enlightened? They essentially get press ganged/ tricked into doing the bidding of a wizard with the end goal of destabling a nation and destroying a species.

There's an absolutely hilarious (at least I think so) book written by Mary Gentle, called 'Grunts!' It details the exploits of a group of orks who stumble upon a dragon's hoard, which exists of all matter of wargear the (apparently dimension traveling) dragon nabbed on our earth. The dragon dies, but cursed his hoard with the words 'You become what you steal'.

So when they leave, bedecked in 20th century military equipment and weapons, they pretty quickly turn into ork marines. Long story short; they basically industrialise the entire fantasy world they're in, recruiting all races into their army, setting up factories and eventually organise democratic (well, sort of) elections, campaigning for their previous dark lord.

It's a riot, but a great read, taking shots at all fantasy and even scifi tropes, whilst telling the entire tale from the perspective of the 'bad' guys.

I've also read a series of books (even though they did not quite capture me as much as Grunts!) called Goblin Quest, which basically does the same, but restricted to the dungeon crawl trope. Fun, but not as memorable.

Games like Dungeon Keeper (PC) and Dungeon Lords (Board game) have always drawn me in too, so I will be sure to check out The last ringbearer too...
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Cubs on February 11, 2016, 11:20:15 AM
There's an absolutely hilarious (at least I think so) book written by Mary Gentle, called 'Grunts!'

I've read that! It was years ago, but I recall they attacked some tower packed with wizards, who managed to just about survive by using a low level 'Fail Weapon' spell on the the Orcs' assault rifles. But the leader of the Orc recognises that their success comes not from the equipment itself (although they do protect the rifles with magical talismans after that), but rather from the superior organisation and control on the battlefield.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Daeothar on February 11, 2016, 12:01:17 PM
Yup; the ork marines (and later also elf, dwarf etc marines) get issued nullifying talisman dogtags as standard afterwards, effectively sidelining magic from combat completely...  :D
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Arthadan on February 11, 2016, 01:04:37 PM
Back on topic, if I may...

They may. Cirdan had a beard.

Tolkien wrote Elves do have beards, but only when they are extremely old. Cirdan was not born in Middle-earth, but created directly by Eru (one of the Elves which first awoke in Cuivienen).

Edited: The McBride picture posted before has brought to memory this one:

(http://www.sffaudio.com/images13/BattleOfTheChamberOfMazarbulIllustrationByAngusMcBride565.jpg)

I think is pretty good.

We have some Orcs:
- Correct size.
- Curved swords (at least one).
- Armour looks crude but effective.
- Skin could be "black".
- Mr. McBride has taken literally the "burning coal" eyes.

And then we have the Cave Troll:
- Size is a bit small, cavern Trolls are supposed to be the biggest breed and here he seems slightly taller than Boromir. i think that size would work well for Stone Trolls though.
- Skin covered by green scales.

Unfortunately we cannot see his toeless feet.

Now I'm wondering if every single Troll breed has green scales. i think it would make sense Stone Trolls have grey scales for example. And about the toeless feet, I think a bipedal creature couldn't stand on elephantine "feet".

Here is an interesting solution (from Devianart artist Merlkir):

(http://img06.deviantart.net/2964/i/2009/279/b/8/tld___new_troll_concept_by_merlkir.jpg)

And the movie take wasn't bad either:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ftiVyVc1e4Y/UOzHr0n5FeI/AAAAAAAAAjc/5MUcasAeU_U/s460/3eaglemoss_trolls.JPG?gl=GB)

However the Stone Trolls in The Hobbit seems to have no scales (at least they are not mentioned).

Quote
But they were trolls. Obviously trolls. Even Bilbo, in spite of his sheltered life, could see that: from the great heavy faces of them, and their size, and the shape of their legs, not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all, at all.

So they "great heavy faces" and there is something very distinctive about the shape of their legs.

Quote
Then there was a gorgeous row. Bilbo had just enough wits left, when Bert dropped him on the ground, to scramble out of the way of their feet, before they were fighting like dogs, and calling one another all sorts of perfectly
true and applicable names in very loud voices.

Again Tolkien uses the word "feet" and not hooves so it seems the two previous designs are wrong.

Here we have the "elephantine" take, seems to work better:
(http://www.tolkiendrim.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/28_Troll_Level_2.jpg)

Still not sure if you can call feet to that.

And finally, there is something called Apert Syndrome (bone malformation) which may affect the feet. I've found an example (basically all toes are joined). As you can imagine is not nice to see, but i think it could work for Trolls. I leave it here (http://disorders.eyes.arizona.edu/sites/disorders.eyes.arizona.edu/files/imagecache/disorder-column-image/disorder_images/slidescan_032.jpg).
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Hobgoblin on February 12, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
And then we have the Cave Troll:
- Size is a bit small, cavern Trolls are supposed to be the biggest breed and here he seems slightly taller than Boromir. i think that size would work well for Stone Trolls though.

Where do you get the info on cave trolls' relative size? I don't recall anything saying that they're bigger than other types. There's nothing in the Moria passages to suggest that, as far as I remember.
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: nicknorthstar on February 12, 2016, 02:43:20 PM
Quote
However the Stone Trolls in The Hobbit seems to have no scales (at least they are not mentioned)

The Prof doesn't mention loads of things, which is why we have these debates. I'd say refer to my earlier post, where in the drawing that is in most editions of The Hobbit' of the Trolls, they look very scaly. (http://www.flavinscorner.com/jrrttrolls.JPG)


I also mentioned there is an earlier Tolkien sketch, not included in 'The Hobbit', where the trolls are clearly not scaly, but, they look rubbish. They would be the worse troll figures on the market if they were made. (http://i.stack.imgur.com/rdnsM.jpg)
Title: Are trees scaly in Middle Earth
Post by: jon_1066 on February 12, 2016, 03:41:48 PM
The Prof doesn't mention loads of things, which is why we have these debates. I'd say refer to my earlier post, where in the drawing that is in most editions of The Hobbit' of the Trolls, they look very scaly. (http://www.flavinscorner.com/jrrttrolls.JPG)



Definitive proof that Tolkien also intended Middle Earth trees to be scaly! ;D

Joking aside perhaps he viewed their skin as more bark like?
Title: Re: Are trees scaly in Middle Earth
Post by: KGatch113 on February 12, 2016, 05:07:29 PM
Definitive proof that Tolkien also intended Middle Earth trees to be scaly! ;D

Joking aside perhaps he viewed their skin as more bark like?

I've always viewed the "scaly" skin of Godzilla as resembling bark more than the scales on a fish, snake or small lizard. Same with alligators....
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Vermis on February 12, 2016, 05:55:24 PM
And not just the trees (which, if any are beeches like the logs on the fire, aren't especially scaly for trees), but all the ground, too.

Not to say it's not a valid point, but I think it's subject to a bit of interpretation.  When I first saw it years ago, I took it to be some kind of stippling effect. And despite some of his drawings having interesting effects that heighten the 'fantasy' feel, IMO, the Prof, bless 'im, wasn't much for figure drawing.

On elephantine feet: only a personal conceit, but I'm fond of the idea. Elephants can rear bipedally, and it's assumed sauropods could too, though obviously that's not the same as walking bipedally. Though there are thoughts and hints of evidence that young sauropods and stegosaurs could move bipedally. In addition, an 'elephantine' foot doesn't necessarily mean a simple cylindrical stump at the bottom of a pillar, either broad and featureless or narrow and tottery.

http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/2011/11/gauging-stance-in-wide-gauge-sauropods.html
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2011/12/22/6054/

What's more, assuming middle-earth trolls are creatures that conform to some physical laws as well as made-up magical beings, and as "very large persons", basically humanoid with broadly similar similar limb proportions. I.e. straight legs, long femurs, plantigrade rather than digitigrade, built for supporting weight and walking rather than springy running, and built for supporting the enormous weight of a 10-12 feet (?) tall, proportionately broader-than-human* body... here's a new word for some of you: graviportal.

http://www.geol.umd.edu/~jmerck/bsci392/lecture11/lecture11.html

Scroll halfway down that page, to the comparison with cursors.

Granted, that doesn't demand that trolls should have elephantine feet either. It's still just me own little extrapolation, based on a couple of the Prof's offhand details.

I know the trolls in the second of his drawings have humanlike, toeless feet. Just noticed that again. Though are they supposed to be wearing some kind of shoes or covering? They don't immediately appear to be wearing anything else either, not even something that Bill would have pockets in.

The last piece Arthadan posted... not sure about it. The whole of the legs, not just the feet, look like round featureless stumps. But then the whole thing looks like a lot of fantasy art and concepts these days - nicely rendered but designed to look 'badass' (down to it's little needle-sharp talons) more than anything else.

*Generally depicted and accepted, right?
Title: Re: Are trees scaly in Middle Earth
Post by: Vermis on February 12, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
I've always viewed the "scaly" skin of Godzilla as resembling bark more than the scales on a fish, snake or small lizard. Same with alligators....

Not-so-fun fact: Godzilla's skin was originally designed to look like keloid scars from the burns of Hiroshima survivors.
Title: Re: Are trees scaly in Middle Earth
Post by: Dilettante Gamer on February 12, 2016, 06:11:20 PM
Not-so-fun fact: Godzilla's skin was originally designed to look like keloid scars from the burns of Hiroshima survivors.

Wow, happy Friday, Vermis.   :-I
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: Froggy the Great on February 12, 2016, 07:00:19 PM
But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?
Title: Re: More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic
Post by: throwsFireball on February 12, 2016, 08:06:58 PM
But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?

(http://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2wbwkc84x1ru37dno1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Are trees scaly in Middle Earth
Post by: Vermis on February 13, 2016, 02:03:15 AM
Wow, happy Friday, Vermis.   :-I

Don't shoot the messenger! :) Despite the goofy b-movie reputation that sprang up, original Godzilla was serious business. There's a good write-up of the production history at the TCM site, here (http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/384918%7C0/Gojira-Godzilla-.html). It explains why Godzilla's texture is more barklike than scaly.

For more on-topic monsters...

But now the real question:  Do balrogs have wings?

Yes... and no!