Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: sukhe_bator on March 24, 2016, 02:35:02 PM
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Some of you have shown an interest in seeing my Lord of The Rings inspired armies and terrain under one banner, so here goes...
Background
I've been a lifelong Tolkien fan and have been collecting related fantasy figures on and off for about 30 years. They have been my single most enduring themed figure collection. I have in more recent years been collecting ad hoc those GW minis from the PJ films that seemed to most fit the descriptions of the various races in my minds eye, but I have some more whimsical fantasy figures that I have adapted. My aim - quite simply to recreate my version of some of the iconic battle scenes of the TA using masses of troops, and with the scenery to match. Harad, Easterlings, Mordor, Morgul will each be armies in their own right...
My take on LoTR is that it is very much a product of Tolkien's times, so the inspirations for his races and characters seem rooted in the popular stories of Robin Hood, Ivanhoe, the narrative of Outremer as well as his exposure to the classical sagas and tales he studied as a linguist.
Gondor
The descriptions in the LoTR, particularly the emphasis on mail, shields and the emphasis on the colours black and white strongly suggest to me the Hospitaller, Templar and Teutonic orders. The effigies of the knights in the Temple church always remind me of the fallen kings and stewards of Gondor. http://oreald.com/pictures/t/y/0000184.jpg
Thus my LoTR Gondorians are firmly rooted in the late C12 and C13, but with the lesser troops with their outmoded dress and equipment straying a little later into the HYW period.
I rewatched 'Kingdom of Heaven' recently, and for me it was in essence a conflict between 'Harad' and 'Gondor' but with different flags...
Harad
These seem to me (un-PC as it may be) firmly rooted in the generic Middle Eastern and North African opponents of the Arab conquest and the later 'Saracens' of the crusading period. Films such as 'El Cid' were inspirational to me growing up. While the tale is C11, the European knights all sport C13 equipment and heraldry. Who cannot fail to picture Herbert Lom as the 'Serpent lord' rallying his troops at the Pelennor fields. Harad have contested Gondor in the past so I reasoned must have a comparable depth of culture and technology level. Thus I've cast widely and looked to the C12 and C13 armies of the Middle East, but given the continuity in equipment and fighting styles used have expanded the source of figures back to the Arab conquest and even the Achaemenid and Sassanid Persians, with men of Far Harad drawn from the Sudanaic desert tribes of that period as well as recruiting Beja with pre-gunpowder weapons.
Mordor
I was particularly taken by Nick Lund's Chronicle orcs when he first started up and have made that my main collection. I liked the thickset, brutish look, that was at odds with the more comical goblin-like take other fantasy figure sculptors adopted as the accepted look for 'orcs'. I continued to collect his figures when he moved to Citadel and Grenadier and have amassed a respectable horde, including over 40 wolf riders.
More recently (after realising that Mordor's human allies outnumbered his orc legions) I converted 150 Em4 plastic orcs into a second Orkish legion.
The knotty problem of suitable humans for the host of 'black clad cavalry' that issues from Morgul eludes me somewhat, but I plan to supplement the GW Black riders with suitably matching barded and cloaked crusader cavalry...
I'm a fan of the PJ trolls, so these are pretty much as they come...
Easterlings
Variags of Khand and Easterlings I see as a combination of cultures based around the Hunnic and Turkic semi-nomadic cultures. I've used converted BTD Kurds as suitably shaggy looking tribesmen and equipped them with axes. For the more civilized parts I've used Curteys medieval Tibetans into spear armed regiments and aim to supplement them with converted Gripping Beast Huns and Mongols and Fireforge steppe warriors.
More to follow... with a series of pics for each army, and scenery
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Yes! I'm looking forward to this.
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That's the stuff, Sukhe! Enjoyed reading your vision and rationale - and am grabbing my virtual popcorn for the show. :D
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Something tells me I'm in for a treat.
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Really looking forward to seeing the images
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Grond
In no particular order, my take on 'Grond' the great battering ram pulled by great beasts (in this case oliphaunts used as draught animals, in suitably protective bardings).
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0445_zpsbiz9ocsp.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0446_zpsjgxvhzbk.jpg~original)
In concept I have not departed unduly from the conventional triangular 'sow' or penthouse covering, though I've included an angled front shield and a walkway on either side for missile troops.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0443_zpsownjzf4g.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0444_zpsdvaclpff.jpg~original)
You can see inside to the lower level where the ram will be slung by chains and crewed by countless minions.... It will be made to scale to the 'one hundred foot in length' complete with green stuff ravening wolf's head tip covered in runes of destructive power.
Artillery
No self respecting besieging force would be complete without a battery of 'trebs'. These are heavily inspired by the stone counterweight trebuchets seen in the PJ film, but tempered with a dose of realism based on reconstructions around the world.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0440_zpsj5rvijqo.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0441_zpsslxguaxx.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Siege%20engines/DSCF0439_zpsvqu3yf08.jpg~original)
And some homegrown 'scorpions'
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0718.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0722.jpg~original)
All I need now are suitable Orkish crew!
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Wow :-* :-* :-* :-*
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It begins. They look great. Particularly looking forward to watching Grond progress.
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Those are already excellent and they're not finished yet!
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I've seen great putty work; I've seen great plasticard work; I've seen great build-a-keep-one-brick-at-a-time
lunac work; but I can't remember if I've seen really great miniature balsawood(?) work, 'til now. That's wow!
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More balsa madness...Some other siege equipment closer to completion...
Mantlets
Southron archer's mantlets
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03099.jpg~original)
Orkish mantlets
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSC03103.jpg~original)
A prototype for a shielded siege ladder which I will probably adapt at some point and make multiple variants...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC03081.jpg[~original/img]
And for reaching the parts other siege engines cannot reach....
[img width=1000 height=777]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0734.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0753.jpg~original)
And a variant on the Chinese 'cloud ladder' for use by Harad assault troops
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0705.jpg~original)
Haulage continues to be a problem, so I had a stab at converting 'great beasts' based on the PJ 'rhinos' from the RoTK from small toy rhinos and hippos...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03087.jpg~original)
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Great stuff! :)
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Wow, tons of good stuff here. :)
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The Fords of Isen
This was one of the set piece battles I always had in my mind to model, and terrain was an important part of it. The river banks of the Isen, higher on one side than another, inspired by the rocky terrain of NZ in the PJ films.
Theodred's last stand on the Eyot of the river Isen, and the assault against the Rohan forts guarding the crossing that are described in depth in Tolkein's Lost Tales...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02949.jpg~original)
The eyot itself, described as looking like a hand, so I modelled the rock strata to look like fingers with a rock and shingle 'palm' tailing off onto a beach...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02951.jpg~original)
The Causeway forts as originally envisaged were earth and timber stockades with stone revetments with a central gatehouse, and separate entrances to the compounds on either side with room for garrison buildings, stables and a watchtower. The modular components make them multipurpose and I will eventually model corner towers etc. so I can have a fully developed earth and timber defensive system that can double for Holdfasts etc. in Westeros. I plan to mount the sections on a modular system of bases so I can include storming poles/defensive stakes...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0478_zpsrqjk4xgu.jpg~original)(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0480_zps4rd6vpch.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0479_zpskrajxe1b.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0481_zpsbqygrnkx.jpg~original)
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Dear lord! You really have a thing for mastodon projects in more than one sense!
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Amazing and evocative work :o, thanks for sharing and inspiring!
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Impressive stuiff, especially the seige equipment. ;D
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Wibble. o_o
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:o :o :o :o :o
Gobsmacked with awe, delight, inspiration and envy.
Thank you for sharing all this awesomeness. Your scratch build siege equipment put my comparatively modest plans for a Pelennor Fields battle to shame.
Have you been working on this over years or is this a newly reinvigorated project? Would make a great multi-player demo game for a show or convention!
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These have all been ticking over for a number of years, much of it well before the LoTR films came out, with a major flurry of activity after 2010 when I participated at a large demo game at Salute with 2 of my armies and 'Sahyun' fortress.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=9211.0
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Salute%202010%20AoA%20game/IMG_1336.jpg~original)
There were talks of another demo game, and my 'Rammas Echor' project, with siege equipment and extra oliphaunts for my Haradrim came out of that. However the anticipated demo game fell thru so I have 12 feet of fortification unbloodied :(
Many of these projects have since been ticking over gently...I'm more or less a solo gamer with grandiose schemes and not enough space...
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Awesome Lord of the Rings is my favorite wargame setting! Like everything you have created and will surely grab your building methods and ideas to expand my mordor army.
Will certainly try to make some great beasts using the shown ones but would you happen to have ideas for draft animals for pulling smaller carts ( like the one shown in the movie at Minas Tirith when they are showing the orc catapults) as I can't think on what to use for that role.
But keep posting especially mordor and haradrim things with pictures, loads of them! Real source of inspiration.
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Great stuff 8)
Very inspiring.
cheers
James
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............
Words pretty much fail me. Stunning and awe inspiring stuff, love the use of the toy rhino and hippo!
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Will certainly try to make some great beasts using the shown ones but would you happen to have ideas for draft animals for pulling smaller carts ( like the one shown in the movie at Minas Tirith when they are showing the orc catapults) as I can't think on what to use for that role.
I was thinking of using long horned cattle to stand in for Aurochs, or some other draught animal taken from Dark Ages/Medieval/siege ranges. At the high end of the scale (but requiring harness details adding)
http://eurekamin.com.au/news.php?newsid=EFlkkVpAluYQycrSSr
While other oxen are available
http://www.1stcorps.co.uk/buy-online/p/oxen/
http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/Roman_Ox_Carts--product--5198.html
And with some conversion these are always a good value fallback
http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/25mmRanges/25mmSiegeEquipment.htm
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Orcs of the White Hand
I'm afraid I'm a shameless fan of the concepts used in PJ's LoTR films. The combination of ancient tech reminiscent of Imperial Rome, the use of pikes etc etc. I thought was particularly well realized. Crossbows too are implicit in a world where torsion artillery is present, if only rarely. There is a sole reference to the use of 'darts' in the attack on Helm's Deep, a word usually associated with crossbows but intended as an artistic description of orkish archery. Although siege catapults were not mentioned in The Two Towers, grapnel hooks and hundreds of ladders were, and the use of Wizard fire tech for destructive purposes seems entirely in keeping when Gandalf was renowned for his fireworks...
No surprises then that I've built up a fairly respectable army from GW figures amassed from Bring & Buys etc... 80 pike, 50 sword and shield and a dozen or so archers, plus about 40 sappers with rams, mines and ladders
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF04141_zpsqxblljxd.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF04161_zps3alyraxb.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF04151_zpsa7rnpbyj.jpg~original)
Being 'off the shelf' so to speak, with only rebasing and some minor kitbashing and repairs to do, these inevitably have taken a back seat to the more creative proxy army-building of recent years. Just lately I started converting some sappers into crossbowmen using Perry WoTR and Fireforge crossbow parts, despairing of ever getting my hands on some metal crossbowmen (I now have 8 and 6 rough conversions)...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF04171_zpsmuabzxis.jpg~original)
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Gorgeous terrain, man!! Please, keep posting!!
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On the basis that you can never have too many orcs and realizing that my venerable horde of Nick Lund Chronicle and Greandier orcs were now outnumbered by my Haradrim, I cast about to see if I could raise another horde in a similar style cheaply... Seen on another thread, but repeated here for completeness, my 150 strong horde of heavily converted Lund-esque Em4 plastic orcs...
They started life as bags of 50 plastic figures in just 3 poses...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG1065_zpsca80d379.jpg~original)
and with some minor conversion work
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG1067_zps8f201916.jpg~original)
and some major conversion work
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG1074_zpsc0d4f053.jpg~original)
ended up as this...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF0409_zpsqqfconim.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF0408_zpslfoxtdv8.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF0406_zpsiikdvihf.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/DSCF0403_zps3czbgjmg.jpg~original)
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Army of the White Tree
I always envisaged the tech and look of Gondor set in a late C12 to C13 setting, firmly in the era of mail, and visually rooted in the military orders of the Crusades with the predominance of black and white... I started collecting when the first plastic GW 5th Ed Bretonnians became available, and these were leavened with a healthy smattering of metal Feudal troops.
This all predated the LoTR films and I was disappointed to see the rendition of Gondorian troops as plate armoured troops, with shields, riding unbarded horses. Plate armoured archers also seemed completely incongruous. I did however like some of the visual motifs, so my first serious attempts to create a Gondorian force reflected a hybrid look...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/gondor5.jpg~original)
While the troops of Dol Amroth developed a distinct Blue/White look of their own.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DolAmrothMAA.jpg~original)
The woodsmen of Ithilien seemed to me archetypal 'Robin Hood' esque inspired forresters, so the figure choices reflected this...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0468_zpsve10ro29.jpg~original)
Though I will be incorporating about a dozen cloaked GW Ithilien Rangers in due course...
My first attempts at incorporating the Bretonnian mounted knights using this limited palette met with limited success, given the mix of flamboyant tourney armour and ott heraldic motifs in use.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/gondor3.jpg~original)
They worked far better for the knights of Dol Amroth than the Gondorian Roquen, who looked more like policemen on horseback! :? :( so much so I used to make siren sounds when gaming with them! The Bretonnian knights have since been relegated...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/gondor1.jpg~original)
The heraldry concocted to match the figures only went so far... The figure in the foreground is intended to represent Hurin the Tall, warden of the keys of Minas Tirith.
Far better and more menacing in appearance are their replacements, drawn from Gripping Beast crusading orders...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF03761_zpsklx4whna.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF03751_zpsgfwm75h3.jpg~original)
In the last few years I have incorporated medieval figures from Black Tree Design into the mix, and developed a sub-heraldry based on C17 company devices. The reasoning behind it is that the Militia defending Minas Tirith would likely be divided into wards based on the seven levels of the city, with companies derived from watches or areas within each ward. The number of charges on the shield represents the level and the device used the particular watch reflecting the part of the city the troops are drawn from. This has now been extended into the foot troops, and reinforcements for the Dol Amroth men at arms have a similar system. I can't bring myself to paint over the C13 heraldry I first used on the foot knights...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0566.jpg~original)
The mounted Knights of Dol Amroth are drawn entirely from GW, and have yet to be assembled...
I have also fielded other contingents such as the archers from Lebennin with a stag's head emblem
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0465_zpswv5gk0hc.jpg~original)
And varangian/viking inspired axemen from Lossarnach, led by Forlong the Fat (who moonlight as Westfolders when not slaying orcs on the borders of Gondor).
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/Lossarnach.jpg~original)
The full battle array as it now stands...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0464_zpsveq4shsh.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0467_zpskmubfa8h.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0470_zpsphrq912b.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0469_zpsb25vvlt4.jpg~original)
My main problem now is that having poached so far and wide from historical ranges for LoTR proxies I am loathe to reuse the same sculpts for my ASOIAF collections!
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There were talks of another demo game, and my 'Rammas Echor' project, with siege equipment and extra oliphaunts for my Haradrim came out of that. However the anticipated demo game fell thru so I have 12 feet of fortification unbloodied :(
Many of these projects have since been ticking over gently...I'm more or less a solo gamer with grandiose schemes and not enough space...
Were I anywhere close to "Darkest Surrey" and not way over in Northern California, I'd love to collaborate on bringing that Rammas project to a demo game. I have fair pile of LotR that I could push against both sides of the battle. I'll share that here later with my plans for a much more modest Pelennor Fields demo game for a local game convention.
Thank you for sharing this wonderful trove!
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Yep, this is what I was hoping to see in this thread. Your Gondorian army is absolutely superb. I keep toying with the idea of doing similar in 15mm but can never see to find suitable figures.
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To be honest I really like your "policemen on horses"! They look fantastic and really suit the image (at last mine) of Gondorian riders.
Actually everything looks really great! Im pretty curious though to your characters :)
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Mr J..
I keep toying with the idea of doing similar in 15mm but can never see to find suitable figures.
May I recommend the very characterful 15mm feudals designed by Josef Ochmann sold by Black Hat
http://www.blackhat.co.uk/product-category/15mm-miniatures/15mm-miniatures-feudals/
The Minfigs 15mm ranges also paint up very well. While the majority of my Feudal Spanish 15s are Minifigs there are some JO sculpts in there. I had a Teutonic DBA and Prussian/Lithuanian tribesmen DBA almost entirely JO sculpts. The knights and men at arms are great while the Pruzz and Liths in particular would make fantastic Dunlendings or Easterlings...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Feudal%20Spanish/spanishinfantry2.jpg~original)
The slingers and peasants on the far left are by JO
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Feudal%20Spanish/spanishinfantry1.jpg~original)
While the two stands of mounted knights between the Hospitallers on the L and the Templars on the R are also JO sculpts
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LordOdo...
The Gondorian peelers were far too late in armour design for my liking though they had a charm of their own but lacked the gravitas I was looking for...
As for characters I'm using the various GW Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn variants as stand alone characters, with a Prince Imrahil in foot and mounted versions, while my CinC (seen in pic 12) is the free Richard Lionheart figure from Salute 2003 sculptured by Mark Copplestone.
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I'd missed this thread. Wonderful stuff. You managed to get quite a bit of variety out of those three orc poses. And it was a treat to see those old Bretonnians, which I agree are more fitting than PJ's tin-can version (although I did like the helmets). How you can pump out miniatures on that scale is beyond me - I barely get through two or three figures a week.
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How you can pump out miniatures on that scale is beyond me - I barely get through two or three figures a week.
Gangleri,
This is the product of about 30+ years modelling, put under one banner by popular request, and I reckon in a good week you'd probably beat me on the painting front. Of all the other wargaming projects I've undertaken (and I suffer from the butterfly effect as much as the next person), this is the one genre/period I've stuck with the longest...
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LordOdo...
The Gondorian peelers were far too late in armour design for my liking though they had a charm of their own but lacked the gravitas I was looking for...
Should you ever want to get rid of them... :D ;D
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Should you ever want to get rid of them... :D ;D
I will cage-match you for them!
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Mr J..May I recommend the very characterful 15mm feudals designed by Josef Ochmann sold by Black Hat
Thanks I'll check them out. Who are the other infantry figures by in that pic? They look spot on for what I am after.
I've also found I lack suitable opponents, particularly 15mm scale orcs, there are lots of 18mm stuff out there but it towers above most 15mm ranges.
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Mr J
Who are the other infantry figures by in that pic? They look spot on for what I am after.
The bulk of the infantry and cavalry are Minifigs, with Tabletop Miniatures crossbowmen in the foreground and some Irregular Miniatures skirmishers. Both Tabletop and Irregular look far better painted up than as bare metal...(I wish makers would at least undercoat their figures to bring out the detail when they post pics on their sites) some can be quite offputting...
I've also found I lack suitable opponents, particularly 15mm scale orcs, there are lots of 18mm stuff out there but it towers above most 15mm ranges.
I see Tabletop also do a Fantasy range, but for a good sense of what's out there I'd check out the other recent 15mm threads for figure advice and inspiration, in particular
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=83555.0
I did dally with 15mm fantasy in my Uni days and built up a fairly respectable Harad army using the Tabletop Arab ranges, but the choice of fantasy opponents (and lets face it you need buckets full of orcs) was pants back in the day... :( otherwise just imagine what 30 years of collecting 15mm might have amassed by now?
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This is looking great. :o
Middle Earth is also the one wargaming genre I have stayed with over the years, unfortunately a lot the really old minis from my teens are long gone now. With one of my regular gaming buddies we play an occasional (very occasional) big, all-day game with over 2000 28mm figures on the table.
Strangely, despite have having orcs, elves and dwarves from almost every manufacturer from the past 35+ years, I only have two GW LOTR figures in my entire collection!
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Sunjester,
That must be a sight to see! Unfortunately I don't have the space to lay out my entire LoTR collection. I think I might just give myself a shock!
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Absolutely love this. I like the GW LOTR stuff but I prefer looking at threads like this. The Orcs are fantastic, really clever
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Hold onto your hats...
Harad
I pitched my look for the Haradrim squarely in the possibly un-PC bogey-men of Medieval Western culture, the Moors and 'Saracens'. I was inspired by films like Ivanhoe, El-Cid and more recently Kingdom of Heaven. Since my Gondorians were drawn from C12-C13 inspired historical ranges it seemed natural to look to their Middle Eastern counterparts. I was aiming at a polyglot look, akin to the imperial armies drawn from the far flung satrapies of ancient Persia, with a medieval look as well...
The release of the Gripping Beast Moors was the starting point, but I soon added Middle Eastern troops from the Arab conquest, Sassanid Persia, Mughal and even Afghans. Historical proxies were readily available for the main bulk of troops...
GB Moorish infantry organised into regiments by shield type, to reflect the regional makeup of the Harad host...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/Haradriminfantry1.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03242-1.jpg~original)
Shield motifs were drawn from Islamic metalwork, tile and pottery decoration, with a serpent theme added. This meant I could go to town on the flag designs as well...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/Haradrimstandards.jpg~original)
I always like Persian 'sparabara' and the 'immortals', so couldn't resist a regiment...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03243-1.jpg~original)
Further regiments were added for a more conventional Saracen look
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03239.jpg~original)
Archers were drawn initially from the Roman Eastern Syrian auxiliaries, with a Middle Eastern makeover...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/EasternAuxiliaryarchers.jpg~original)
Skirmishers were at first composed of GB Desert Nomads, seen here in the foreground
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0921_zps49a2ed75.jpg~original)
but Perry Beja soon joined them
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03257.jpg~original)
Cavalry with enough kick to match medieval knights in combat were drawn from the Sassanid era
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC02216.jpg~original)
supported by lighter Moorish types...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC02214.jpg~original)
And what army wouldn't be complete without a unit of drug-psyched fanatics, complete with snake body-art, in this case filled by Perry Azerbaijanis from their crusades range...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03240.jpg~original)
This was the muster in 2010...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC03175.jpg~original)
But what are Haradrim without oliphaunts? Not the gargantuan multi-tusked monstrosities of the PJ films, but super-sized (yes), but realistic looking and intimidating oliphaunts.
I decided to adopt armour and bardings as well as towers to make the elephants more intimidating and match the armour tech displayed by the heavy cavalry
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSC02220.jpg~original)
The process was quite straightforward. Get a model elephant of suitable size, clad it in card as a foundation...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/Newbatch005.jpg~original)
Add Milliput and green stuff and sculpt various different armour types
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/Newbatch002-1.jpg~original)
Add a balsa and card howdah suitable to take the maximum number of figures without it looking stupid... I liked the 2 tier version designed by John Treadaway back in the day and also used by PJ. With a 5 man crew in the howdah, and mahouts, they have enough oomph on the battlefield to be a powerful weapons platform... who needs siege towers?
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/IMAG0376.jpg~original)
Keep going until you have a large number of variants
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/IMAG0614.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/IMAG0610.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/IMAG0609.jpg~original)
Until you have a scary number of them...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/IMAG0568.jpg~original)
The final look...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0937_zps77e1d5d5.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG0915_zps2abad3fc.jpg~original)
I call this formation 'the steamroller'!!! 8)
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All of it is fantastic, and well thought out
Thanks for sharing, really great to see your take on Middle Earth Armies :)
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I love the banners! Nice variants on the snake emblem.
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:-* :-* :-*
I absolutely love, love, LOVE your Haradrim - the banners and shields most especially but your model choices, Mumakil conversions too!
The painted drum heads for the win!
Damn. Just, damn...
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Until you have a scary number of them...
Couldn't put it more appropriately.
Really inspiring stuff. This thread needs to be stickied or archived somehow. Any chance of a LotR compendium thread...?
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I'm hoping to create a composite architectural style that I can use for Middle Earth and Westeros...
In particular vernacular architecture I can use as interesting terrain pieces, again conforming to my standard storage restriction - a copier paper box 8" x 9" x 11"
Ruined barn
Inspired by the descriptions in the Two Towers (book) of the destruction wrought on the fields and farms of the Pelennor (not the barren expanse depicted in the films), I tried my hand at a ruined barn... this is the w.i.p. result, which will have charred and blacked timbers etc... rubble and suitable vantage points to place troops on the upper level. Devising the internal framework is hard and I've been studying references on medieval architectural construction and timber framing methods to lend it added realism...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0475_zpsxy2ly8ea.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0477_zpsllxrvwpy.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSCF0476_zpszboovmxa.jpg~original)
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The Bridge at Osgiliath
Described in Tolkien's writings in terms reminiscent of the old London bridge, and fortified bridges like Pont Valentre at Cahors... lovely though this would be I decided this was far too ambitious a project to undertake. For one thing I needed a realistic approachway from the tabletop to the centre spans that wasn't too steep for models. Taking visual clues from the PJ film and references to medieval bridges like the one
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Cahors_Pont_Valentre_2.jpg/1200px-Cahors_Pont_Valentre_2.jpg
The result is a scaled down version with a large carriageway width befitting a main thoroughfare through a once populous city (and suitable for transporting siege engines). The last bridge was deliberately broken by Gondor when the East bank of the city was lost to Mordor, so I made a study of stone bridges deliberately destroyed (most of them in England due to the civil war) to get a sense of what they'd most look like... this example from St Ives (Cambs).
http://www.stives-town.info/album/images/st_ives_bridge.jpg
This was the initial starting point, with removable sections...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02444.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02448.jpg~original)
I decided early on to replace the buttress/breakwaters with proper angled refuges and show battle damage from bombardments from either side...(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02474.jpg~original)
The centre spans seen here complete
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02575.jpg~original)
And broken
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02586.jpg~original)
Some suitably ornate touches to the approachways
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02654.jpg~original)
An associated project was to model the 'Rammas Echor' the Hadrian's wall-like defensive circuit built around the Pelennor fields to protect the populous farmlands. This called for a main gatehouse, but I also wanted to add a fortified section to the bridge, so thanks to the modular nature of the bridge I engineered a junction between the two so I could use the same gatehouse in two different scenarios...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02656.jpg~original)
A sabot base with a talus effected a junction
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02625.jpg~original)
The end result awaiting some final touches
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02675.jpg~original)
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Like earlier said in your Westeros thread, this amazing (:o) bridge would also look the parts as the Twins! It's nice to see so many crossovers between LoTR and ASOIAF/GoT... ;D (and you having a great thread in both of these settings!)
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:o :o :o
What a stunning collection.
:-* :-*
Must stop looking now......
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:o
What do you use to cut the foam so accurately?? I'd love to see a how-to if you have pic through the construction.
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What do you use to cut the foam so accurately?? I'd love to see a how-to if you have pic through the construction.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Sayhun%20castle%20project/sahyun015.jpg~original)
This pic of w.i.p. on my 'Sahyun' castle project shows my working. I habitually use a sharp scalpel blade 10A and a craft knife with an extendable blade (the ones with the snap off disposable blades) sometimes extended up to 50mm. With thick sections I often cut into it all the way around where I've marked and then and snap them off. Often foam will tear out neatly if cut 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through like the embrasures between merlons. Inaccuracies and curves can be smoothed using fine sandpaper. You can see the merlons on the left have not been finished off while the ones on the right have... A lot of the 'broken' stonework on the bridge was achieved by making a cut and then tearing out chunks...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Sayhun%20castle%20project/various006-1.jpg~original)
A trick with windows in thick panels is to cut a slot to reduce the thickness behind where you want the window to go. This can then be cut out and a filler panel glued in place afterwards.
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The Rammas Echor
This was by far my most ambitious project so far. It grew out of a desire to recreate the various engagements that made up the War of the Ring, and the fact that the Rammas did not feature in the PJ films irked me no end. I envisaged it as a medieval version of Hadrian's wall, somewhat delapidated but still serviceable, with different styles of towers, modular wall lengths, separate steps to rear and a slight overall curvature.
This was going to be the set piece for another Armies of Arcana demo game that ultimately fell through. In the end I built 12 feet of fortification including breached walls, towers, the main gate, stone road/causeway and mural towers...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0474.jpg~original)
The left hand side...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0478.jpg~original)
The right hand side
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0399.jpg~original)
The causeway approach
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0466.jpg~original)
Breach sections complete
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0458.jpg~original)
And as rubble, with additional rubble bases front and back to show the breach debris zone...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0460.jpg~original)
As w.i.p. showing the polysterene foam core clad in panels of styrofoam
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/Oldcamera005.jpg~original)
Artillery tower and mural tower
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0475.jpg~original)
The main gatehouse, at this stage still unfinished (in three main sections which fits into 3 copier boxes)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02704.jpg~original)
With a formidable entrance
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0698.jpg~original)
And a military road to the rear
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/IMAG0393.jpg~original)
And terminating in a lighthouse/tower for 'the Harlond'.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC03000.jpg~original)
And as w.i.p. showing the somewhat haphazard evolution of the tower
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Men%20of%20Gondor/DSC02718.jpg~original)
Further work on this stalled once it became clear the demo game was not going to happen, and I've used portions since, and plan to revisit parts of it for my take on Helm's Deep... but that's another story
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This all looks so amazing. I love the Haradrim and that bridge is fantastic! :o
looking at my own LOTR stuff I feel quite inadequate! I can't even let you inspire me as we have major building work going on and most of my wargaming (all of the painting/modelling stuff) has had to be packed away. :'(
Then, whilst I'm writing, you post that awesome Rammas Echor post. Speechless. o_o
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If it makes you feel any better, the vast majority of this is now squirreled away in my loft... :'( :'( :'(
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Lord almighty, that's ambitious....
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You are one seriously talented dude. Absolutely stunning work. Thanks for sharing.
Regards,
Hitman
8)
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So if there's anyone out there in the UK who wants to stage a mega Middle Earth or fantasy based bash at Salute 2017????..... ;)
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Sounds a great idea, but I'm afraid wild wargs and Grond's beasts couldn't drag me to Salute.
What rules would you use?
We are thinking of staging a mega Dragon Rampant game at our club sometime using the mass of LOTR stuff a couple of us are hording. 12-14 players each with 30-40 point warbands.
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I feel the same way about Salute.... I haven't been for a number of years. I'm not good with crowds at the best of times. Although I will always regard Armies of Arcana very fondly as getting me back into Fantasy Wargaming after years in the doldrums, I'm considering going down the same route exploring using Dragon Rampant, especially after comparing notes with Dilettante Gamer and others.
I was always rubbish with casualty calcs and morale, so the refreshingly straightforward DR approach suits this 'bear of little brain' down to the ground.
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Those buildings are beautiful, and I don't say that lightly. That there is why I was drawn to wargaming in the first place.
Inspired by the descriptions in the Two Towers (book) of the destruction wrought on the fields and farms of the Pelennor (not the barren expanse depicted in the films), I tried my hand at a ruined barn...
Images in my head of a table set up like 1940's France, but with orcs and haradrim running around!
I haven't been for a number of years. I'm not good with crowds at the best of times.
You and me both! But this kind of thing would pull me back, better than wild wargs. :D
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I hear you Vermis, I hear you! :D
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MAN!!...what an amazing thread... :-*:o :o :o :-*
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Wow! Thanks for this! great stuff
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Amazing stuff! I love the Haradrim in particular, and the scenery is exquisite.
I think you're bang on using oliphaunts to pull Grond; my son and I have been reading the book as a bedtime story (a very long project ...), and when we came to the Pelennor Fields, it struck me that, in context, "great beasts" almost certainly means mumakil (which, if I recall, have been described as exactly that earlier). But those rhino conversions look great too.
Interested to see the Fords of the Isen stuff: do you have any plans for axe-wielding, mail-clad half-orcs to launch at Theodred?
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Fantastic work on the terrain :-)
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Ooooh! Just discovered this thread.
Amazing architecture and battle damage!
Impressive armies! What massive hordes of figures! And the Oliphants!!!!!
There just aren't enough exclamation points on my keyboard to do this justice.
Keep us posted on locations for possible demo games.
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my son and I have been reading the book as a bedtime story (a very long project ...),
My son and I have just embarked on the same. We haven't reached Weathertop yet. He tends to zonk out after a few pages, so it's slow going. But I'm loving it!
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This is one of the most amazing terrain building threads I've ever seen! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Mordor
I was particularly taken by Nick Lund's Chronicle orcs when he first started up and have made that my main collection. I liked the thickset, brutish look, that was at odds with the more comical goblin-like take other fantasy figure sculptors adopted as the accepted look for 'orcs'. I continued to collect his figures when he moved to Citadel and Grenadier and have amassed a respectable horde, including over 40 wolf riders.
I missed this thread. Just catching up.
I couldn't agree more with your choice of nick lands sculpts. I wondered if you'd seen my collection?
http://brandlin.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/FW%20Orc
Love to see what you do with yours...
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For the benefit of Brandlin and the sake of completeness, with apologies for those who may have seen these pics before...
Orcs of the Red Eye
I've been collecting Nick Lund's Chronicle and later Grenadier orcs for some considerable time now since I was in my teens. I liked the brute thuggish workmanlike look of his sculpts, so refreshingly different from the disney-like goblinesque versions being produced by Citadel and later GW. I have been adding to my collection intermittently over the years...
These pics were taken some years ago before I opted to collect GW Saruman orcs as a separate army, so you'll see a number of banners inspired by the PJ films amongst the horde that have yet to be converted...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/urukinfantry1.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/urukinfantrystandards.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/urukinfantry2.jpg~original)
As the Grenadier sculpts got larger (and uglier), my original Chronicle leaders have been relegated to henchmen and guards...
I am most proud of my Warg riders - nearly 50 at last count
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/wargriders5.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/wargriders1.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/wargriders3.jpg~original)
The years have not been kind to some and I have made repairs to some and have a 'hospital company' that is still w.i.p.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/wargriders4.jpg~original)
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I've always wanted to make a mostly mtd goblin army and play them in Warhammer using Mongol tactics.
Would most likely get slaughtered, but I would still like to try it one day :-)
Maybe Kings of War would be the better rules to try this in...
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I had the idea of using Dark Alliance Wargs with em4 plastic orcs to get a strong bulk of cavalry (wolvalry?), but the DA wargs being in 20mm scale I don't know how well they would combine.
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Reed,
Nice idea but the Em4 orcs are due to their vintage and scale creep large, more like 28/30mm. The Dark Alliance 1:72nd figs seem to be 22mm from reviews I've seen. I doubt very much whether they would be compatible... since an Em4 Orc looks gargantuan put next to even a 25mm GW Warg. You could probably get away with using GW Moria goblins ;), but nothing really larger than that as riders since the scale is too different...
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For the sake of completeness,
Dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Hills
These venerable GW sculpts were a job lot with another collection I acquired from a Bring & Buy, but had a compatible historical look similar to the armour tech in use with my Gondorians. I have given them a suitable makeover using decorative motifs of angular interlace in metals developed in part from concept art for Gimli's costumes and weapons in the LoTR films... way before the Hobbit films were a glint in PJ's eye...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Dwarfish%20Host/IMAG0616.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Dwarfish%20Host/IMAG0621.jpg~original)
I had particular fun with the Khuzdul banner for 'Dain Ironfoot' on one side the runes proclaim him as Lord of Erebor (succeeding Thorin), with a stylised lonely mountain and hammer motif at the centre
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Dwarfish%20Host/IMAG0620.jpg~original)
The first two cartouches on the reverse have the battle chant of the Dwarfs, Baruk_Khazâd!_Khazâd_ai-męnu! taken from fansites examining the chanting in Khuzdul developed for the OST for the Mines of Moria film sequence.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Dwarfish%20Host/IMAG0619.jpg~original)
I have some Dwarf rangers and crossbowmen in support and a 150 figure Em4 dwarf host on order, which will enable me ultimately to field a suitably businesslike Orc-bashing army...
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For the benefit of Brandlin and the sake of completeness, with apologies for those who may have seen these pics before...
I've been collecting Nick Lund's Chronicle and later Grenadier orcs for some considerable time now since I was in my teens. I liked the brute thuggish workmanlike look of his sculpts, so refreshingly different from the disney-like goblinesque versions being produced by Citadel and later GW. I have been adding to my collection intermittently over the years...
Thanks for the pics.
I too had chronicle orcs back in the day (1985/6) but they are long gone, traded for dwarfs I think. I loved the grimness, but I became seduced by citadel and their new dangled slotta base things.
I had hundreds of citadel imperial dwarfs. I think I only have about 20 left. I never got into the comic Orc/goblin citadel vibe. They were always too childish. Yes, I'm aware of the irony of calling some toy soldiers and not other 'childish'!
You have clearly given yours orcs more love than I have mine. I'm particularly impressed with your wargame rider horde. En masse it looks like a ravening horde of vileness - just the job. I think I have about 30 grenadier riders, and about 20 n14 chronicle ones. But it's the 8 chronicle chariots I'm most proud of? Like said above I did like the idea of having a fully mounted horde whizzing about the table harassing and out manoeuvring the enemy. Sadly war hammer was never that game.
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I think I have about 30 grenadier riders, and about 20 n14 chronicle ones. But it's the 8 chronicle chariots I'm most proud of? Like said above I did like the idea of having a fully mounted horde whizzing about the table harassing and out manoeuvring the enemy. Sadly war hammer was never that game.
I hear you. I have 45 wolf riders, about 60% Chronicle and the rest Grenadier. I also have a trio of chariots on my to do list. My Uruk general last led his warg riders into battle in 2010 against some pesky Elves
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Salute%202010%20AoA%20game/IMG_1343.jpg~original)
Sadly I could never make chariots work effectively in any ruleset. They were after all historically primitive tech designed to carry leaders into battle at a time when horses weren't bred big enough to ride... As soon as there was cavalry, chariots were to all intents and purposes obsolete...
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... pesky Elves ...
Yeah, THAT ^
Sadly I could never make chariots work effectively in any ruleset. They were after all historically primitive tech designed to carry leaders into battle at a time when horses weren't bred big enough to ride... As soon as there was cavalry, chariots were to all intents and purposes obsolete...
Most systems treat them as platforms for inaccurate archery or simply wagons to be rammed into the enemy. Mind you if you have enough of them ramming them into the enemy can be quite fun :-)
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I'm contemplating relegating the 2 wolf chariots to more menial duties and/or converting them to more powerful 'daisy cutters'
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Great thread. Really enjoying it.
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I'm contemplating relegating the 2 wolf chariots to more menial duties and/or converting them to more powerful 'daisy cutters'
See that's the problem - you only have 2!
The heavy chariots are good for imposing and just crashing in to the enemy - force of mass, momentum and psychological impact.
The light chariots should have a similar impact but lesser impact but be more mobile.
In general chariots should have less charge and fighting impact than a lance of mounted toops, but i'd expect the psychological impact to be greater? (perhaps)
Which versions of the light chariots do you have?
I'm still hunting (on and off) for the larger chronicle chariot - allegedly 4 wolves
CM22B2 and CM22C
http://www.solegends.com/chron/chronicmlist.htm
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Yep I have all three versions, and the later Grenadier Orc Generals chariot as per the image I posted...
The Chronicle 4 wolf chariot is exactly the same size as the 2 wolf version but the transom is longer to hitch 4 wolves to, with the tasteful addition of a spiked severed head decorative motif :D
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:CM22B1.jpg
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:CM22B2.jpg
Possibly the sight of 4 ravening wolves bearing down on you and scythed blades chopping thru your comrades should be enough to inspire fear?
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I just found this thread.
And may I say my hat is thoroughly off to you sir! That is a seriously impressive build both the terrain and the armies.
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Rohirrim
This is the least finished army in my LoTR collections. Many many years ago I started collecting Mithril Rohirrim, which most closely matched my minds eye of this race. Unfortunately I made a serious mistake as a teen and stupidly cropped the support under some of the horses legs. After years in storage the weight of horse and rider broke some of the legs and I have had to laboriously pin and glue them and fashion additional supports...
When the first images of the PJ LoTR rohirrim came out I revisited and tinkered with some decorative motifs and banners
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/rohirrim3.jpg~original)
I started to integrate GW Riders of Rohan into the mix (see front rank behind the Mithril 'Theoden'). Despite the slight scale difference, rebasing helped greatly...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/rohirrim1.jpg~original)
I have since added to the total from Bring & Buys etc. so I now have approximately 40 cavalry. Annoyingly the GW plastic Rohirrim had almost identical issues with broken leg syndrome, requiring further hours of repairs. Now I just need to sit down and paint them all. The lack of a viable 'White Hand' enemy to game with did not help with my motivation :-[, but that has now changed.. ;)
I have also amassed approx 50 infantry, from both GW and other Dark Ages/Viking types, but need to reorganise them in light of various GoT conversions I have made...
Ultimately I would like to have a DR/LR force sufficient to field 3 cavalry wings, and an infantry garrison for 'Fords of Isen' and 'Helm's Deep' siege scenarios...
Apart from the hill forts, I have had a stab at turf-based building technology to model the Westfold...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/DSC02200.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG1010_zpse43d35aa.jpg~original)
and need to build up a suitable Dark Age homestead/farm as well as a Hall, watchtower, garrison and stable blocks... lol lol lol
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Now this is proper wargaming madness! I salute you sir! Bravo!
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Easterlings
I've used more exotic Proxies as my Easterlings. For the more tribal axe wielding types I've used Black Tree Designs Kurdish tribesmen, with a variety of nasty medieval Russian axes from Gripping Beast and even some Dacian Romphaia from my bits box... Although they only come in 4 poses, they really are versatile. I will also be drafting them in as Dunlendings
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSCF0531_zpsovj3tp8u.jpg~original)
Taking advantage of BTD's occasional discounts I've added a few more unit variants, the front row pretty much as supplied with a handful of conversions, while the rear have Mongol wicker shields and in some cases shield arms from the Fireforge Steppe Warriors box
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSCF0532_zpswdju4hmt.jpg~original)
Skirmishers and light cavalry will be drawn from the Fireforge steppe ranges pretty much out of the box.
Two units of spearmen are drawn from the Curteys medieval Tibetans, organised according to their dress and equipment in two distinct regiments
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSCF0536_zps6seax2q1.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Haradrim/DSCF0535_zpsiuyfqnez.jpg~original)
There is still a lot of work to do but I think this will make for an unusual army...
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Easterlings
There is still a lot of work to do but I think this will make for an unusual army...
I'll say. It is already shaping up to be quite varied and interesting. The Tibetans in particular add an exotic touch.
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Thanks to a timely recruitment drive from Vermis, My Legion of the White Hand now has 112 pike, sufficient to make 7 phalanxes of 16 figures each... Now all I have to do is paint 'em up ;D
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Thanks to a timely recruitment drive from Vermis, My Legion of the White Hand now has 112 pike, sufficient to make 7 phalanxes of 16 figures each... Now all I have to do is paint 'em up ;D
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
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AND with LOTS of ketchup! ;D
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Good news is that those GW Uruk Hai are basically 3 colors - metal, flesh, wood - a wash plus highlights. You can power through that.
It's a marathon, not a sprint. ;)
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I agree they are pretty monotonous compared to some minis, but rebasing them all takes time, that and making up another 5 'nobori' style flags which will slow me down. Then there's painting the 'S' runes on all the helmets and hand prints on the 'braves', plus converting 7 swordsmen into 'centurions'...
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I am absolutely blown away by the size, scope, and quality of your collection. I stand in awe of you sir, this is honestly some amazing work!
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I am absolutely blown away by the size, scope, and quality of your collection. I stand in awe of you sir, this is honestly some amazing work!
many thanks Lt. Tibbles. It has been a long, long, long time in development and will undoubtedly take a lot more time to finish ;D
Now that I have approaching the numbers I need I have been looking critically at recreating The Battle of the Hornburg (Helm's Deep). Before I launch into another building project I have been looking at the canon source material for inspiration. My research has pointed to there being significant differences between the widely accepted non-canon LotR gaming/film layout and what is described in The Two Towers, and through the observations of like minded individuals, like Doug Larsen
http://larsen-family.us/~1066/
More to follow at some point... ;)
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This thread continues to amaze!
Looking at the Doug Larsen essay on Helm's Deep, I spot a couple of odd things:
1. He leaves out the half-orcs. When (in "Flotsam and Jetsam") Merry and Pippin describe the 'horrible' Men with goblin-faces, Aragorn says "we had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep". That adds an extra dimension to Gamling's "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and goblin-men". At the time, that reference seems to be to the Uruk-hai, but in the context of the later quote, it implies that there are two types of orcish soldier in Saruman's service: somewhat Mannish Orcs (the Uruk-hai) and somewhat Orcish Men (of the sort seen later in the Shire).
2. I don't think there's anything in LotR that indicates that Saruman had significant numbers of small Orcs in his service. The narrative makes frequent reference simply to "Orcs", but these Orcs say "We are the fighting Uruk-hai". And the Uruk-hai are usually described as "Orcs" by the narrator.
Anyway, it'll be great to see what you do with Helm's Deep!
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I've been re-reading the 'Helm's Deep chapter in The Two Towers and re watching clips from the PJ Film by way of research for my next project...
There are some major discrepancies between the film version and the book version. Before I examine the book sources in detail, I've a few comments about the film (which don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed but will nevertheless NOT be basing my Hornburg project on)
Ten things about the Film version of Helm’s Deep that make no military sense.
1. No moat
The most rudimentary fundamental defensive work is a ditch and bank. This speaks more to Hollywood than anything else where such features are rarely shown, but it would appear, according to Peter Jackson, that the ditch was not invented anywhere in Middle Earth. In The Two Towers Tolkien mentions an older defensive structure further down the Deeping Coombe called the Deeping Dyke, incorporating a steep ditch and earth bank, so although moats and ditches aren’t specifically mentioned, their presence is pretty much implicit.
2. A castle built into the cliff side
Undoubtedly this looks good, but the possibility of attack from above has not been considered. Tolkien speaks of hidden fissures and secret ways into the mountains behind the Deeping Coombe. Far better would be to have a standalone circuit. This also prevents there being a rear gate or other way out, so unsurprisingly when the defenders are overrun the rest are trapped inside the ‘keep’ with only one entrance/exit.
3. No drawbridge or portcullis
This is also an omission on Tolkien’s part, who speaks only of a causeway and ramp up to the Hornburg gate. However, another of the most rudimentary defensive works is a removable bridge spanning a ditch or stream. This could be something as simple as removable planks, through to a graceful bascule drawbridge.
4. The approach curves the wrong way
Most castle approaches and stairs will direct a would-be attacker to expose their undefended/shieldless side to fire from a number of vantage points on the wall. The causeway approach in the film curves (I suspect more for cinematic effect than practicality) from the centre of the coombe so that an attacker can approach shielded from fire.
5. Walls you have to look over to see
Sounds stupid I know, but battlements are designed to protect the defender from missile fire. Having to expose yourself to enemy fire in order to shoot at oncoming attackers exposes a fundamental flaw in the design of the defensive works. There is a reason why medieval battlements look the way they do.
6. Embrasures that don’t work
Linked to the above, but another feature of battlements is the ability to see the base of the wall you are defending. The placement of such defences with covering fields of fire is key to a good wall defence. The design of embrasure looks far more suited to gunpowder artillery than anything else.
7. A Postern gate to nowhere
Having to leap a gap to reach the main gate makes a complete nonsense of the sally port, which should enable a rapid, unimpeded and sudden attack by the defenders when needed.
8. Inner entrances without gates
The concentric rings of PJ’s Hornburg make no sense without defended doorways to delay an attack. Once the main gate is taken, the Uruk-Hai swarm in unhindered all the way to the inner bailey. An overhead walkway also leads straight from the inner bailey to the outer wall, without a gate or door to close it, albeit covered by a rudimentary machiol.
9. A walk-in culvert with access on the outside!
Nice of the defenders to provide a convenient man-height tunnel through the entire thickness of the main defensive wall, with a metal grating on the wrong inner, rather than outer face of the wall. Tolkien’s original culvert was no bigger than one person could crawl through, in much the same manner as some garderobe culverts of medieval castles (not a job for the squeamish). Tolkien omitted a metal grate, which would also have made more sense.
10. Pike’s Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing. They also have a part to play fending off a predominantly cavalry enemy in the open, which would be an important consideration fighting in Rohan. However, their tactical value in a storming is questionable. PJ does have them in use as props/guides for the storming ladders which is an interesting idea...
Next up. The canon sources on the Hornburg
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I've been re-reading the 'Helm's Deep chapter in The Two Towers and re watching clips from the PJ Film by way of research for my next project...
There are some major discrepancies between the film version and the book version. Before I examine the book sources in detail, I've a few comments about the film (which don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed but will nevertheless NOT be basing my Hornburg project on)
Ten things about the Film version of Helm’s Deep that make no military sense.
1. No moat
The most rudimentary fundamental defensive work is a ditch and bank. This speaks more to Hollywood than anything else where such features are rarely shown, but it would appear, according to Peter Jackson, that the ditch was not invented anywhere in Middle Earth. In The Two Towers Tolkien mentions an older defensive structure further down the Deeping Coombe called the Deeping Dyke, incorporating a steep ditch and earth bank, so although moats and ditches aren’t specifically mentioned, their presence is pretty much implicit.
2. A castle built into the cliff side
Undoubtedly this looks good, but the possibility of attack from above has not been considered. Tolkien speaks of hidden fissures and secret ways into the mountains behind the Deeping Coombe. Far better would be to have a standalone circuit. This also prevents there being a rear gate or other way out, so unsurprisingly when the defenders are overrun the rest are trapped inside the ‘keep’ with only one entrance/exit.
3. No drawbridge or portcullis
This is also an omission on Tolkien’s part, who speaks only of a causeway and ramp up to the Hornburg gate. However, another of the most rudimentary defensive works is a removable bridge spanning a ditch or stream. This could be something as simple as removable planks, through to a graceful bascule drawbridge.
4. The approach curves the wrong way
Most castle approaches and stairs will direct a would-be attacker to expose their undefended/shieldless side to fire from a number of vantage points on the wall. The causeway approach in the film curves (I suspect more for cinematic effect than practicality) from the centre of the coombe so that an attacker can approach shielded from fire.
5. Walls you have to look over to see
Sounds stupid I know, but battlements are designed to protect the defender from missile fire. Having to expose yourself to enemy fire in order to shoot at oncoming attackers exposes a fundamental flaw in the design of the defensive works. There is a reason why medieval battlements look the way they do.
6. Embrasures that don’t work
Linked to the above, but another feature of battlements is the ability to see the base of the wall you are defending. The placement of such defences with covering fields of fire is key to a good wall defence. The design of embrasure looks far more suited to gunpowder artillery than anything else.
7. A Postern gate to nowhere
Having to leap a gap to reach the main gate makes a complete nonsense of the sally port, which should enable a rapid, unimpeded and sudden attack by the defenders when needed.
8. Inner entrances without gates
The concentric rings of PJ’s Hornburg make no sense without defended doorways to delay an attack. Once the main gate is taken, the Uruk-Hai swarm in unhindered all the way to the inner bailey. An overhead walkway also leads straight from the inner bailey to the outer wall, without a gate or door to close it, albeit covered by a rudimentary machiol.
9. A walk-in culvert with access on the outside!
Nice of the defenders to provide a convenient man-height tunnel through the entire thickness of the main defensive wall, with a metal grating on the wrong inner, rather than outer face of the wall. Tolkien’s original culvert was no bigger than one person could crawl through, in much the same manner as some garderobe culverts of medieval castles (not a job for the squeamish). Tolkien omitted a metal grate, which would also have made more sense.
10. Pike’s Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing. They also have a part to play fending off a predominantly cavalry enemy in the open, which would be an important consideration fighting in Rohan. However, their tactical value in a storming is questionable. PJ does have them in use as props/guides for the storming ladders which is an interesting idea...
Next up. The canon sources on the Hornburg
Makes sense to me, never thought about most of this. :)
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10. Pikes Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing.
I agree with all of your points above, but permit me to quibble with a detail here! :) I don't think there's any evidence that the Isengarder pikemen were Uruks. Here's the quote:
"The enemy was in fact in positions prepared for the event, behind trenches manned by pikemen, and Theodred in the leading eored was brought to a stand and almost surrounded, for new forces hastening from Isengard were now outflanking him upon the west."
Now, we know that the forces that fought Theodred contained both Men and Orcs (and half-orcs, but they're classed as "Men"). I don't think pikemen is quite conclusive in itself, as I can think of one instance (in The Hobbit) where Tolkien refers to "a goblin swordsman", but it is suggestive (and we don't get that sort of usage recurring in LotR).
More than that, though, the Uruks at the Isen are described as "trained to move at great speeds for long distances". They're heavily armed but fast-moving infantry, which fits with the description of Ugluk's troop (armour, longbows, swords, large shields), but seems an unlikely fit with pike-armed troops. The unarmoured Dunlendings, on the other hand, have echoes of the Celtic fringe about them - and Scots and Welsh pikemen seem to provide an obvious source of inspiration.
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You have to be careful about the term 'pike'.
To a modern wargamer this immediately conjures images of 20 foot spears wielded by Macedonians or Swiss, but the term has also been used for the 12 foot spears of the Scottish 'schiltron' and even the 5 foot long 'Croft's Pikes' that English home guard were issued with in WWII.
Churchhill: "every man must have a weapon of some kind, be it only a mace or pike"
Beefeaters are also usually described as armed with a 'pike' and they are only 6 foot at best.
At best, all you can infer from the term in Tolkien's case is 'a pole with a pointy bit at the end'.
Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson
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You have to be careful about the term 'pike'.
To a modern wargamer this immediately conjures images of 20 foot spears wielded by Macedonians or Swiss, but the term has also been used for the 12 foot spears of the Scottish 'schiltron' and even the 5 foot long 'Croft's Pikes' that English home guard were issued with in WWII.
Beefeaters are also usually described as armed with a 'pike' and they are only 6 foot at best.
At best, all you can infer from the term in Tolkien's case is 'a pole with a pointy bit at the end'.
Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson
That's an excellent point (pun intended!). :D
If I had to guess, I'd reckon that Tolkien had the schiltron at the back of his mind, given the "Celtic fringe" echoes of Dunland (and the Dunlendings' poorly armoured nature - also reminiscent of medieval Scots and Welsh).
On reflection, I think the unmodified "pikemen" is highly suggestive of Dunlendings. One of the themes that Tolkien stresses in descriptions of the Isengard armies is that Orcs (Saruman's Uruk-hai) fight very differently from Men because of the former's smaller stature - see Gimli's complaints about the Dunlendings at Helm's Deep and also the note in Battle of the Fords of the Isen. So I'd have expected him to make a distinction (as he often does with "Orc-archers").
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Fair point - pun intended, and my Dunlander contingent is as yet unresolved. I have yet to get suitable shaggy cavalry and I am considering using some of my spear and shield armed Kurdish tribesmen I'd originally earmarked as easterlings as proxy Dunlanders.
However, short on stature or not, on balance I'll stick with the PJ rendition of the Uruks. I like the faceless, anonymous armoured look reminiscent of the Roman legions. It's just the sort of mass produced army I'd envisage a Wizard coming up with, looking through old tomes and descriptions of ancient armies. The banded armour also looks like a cruder, more brutish version of the SA leaf-like Elvish armour.
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Fair point - pun intended, and my Dunlander contingent is as yet unresolved. I have yet to get suitable shaggy cavalry and I am considering using some of my spear and shield armed Kurdish tribesmen I'd originally earmarked as easterlings as proxy Dunlanders.
However, short on stature or not, on balance I'll stick with the PJ rendition of the Uruks. I like the faceless, anonymous armoured look reminiscent of the Roman legions. It's just the sort of mass produced army I'd envisage a Wizard coming up with, looking through old tomes and descriptions of ancient armies. The banded armour also looks like a cruder, more brutish version of the SA leaf-like Elvish armour.
Makes sense. And it's hard to find "bookish" Uruk-hai - let alone large numbers of them!
(It's always seemed odd to me that PJ & co. didn't go for the simple route of making the Uruk-hai the half-orcs. There's that dreadful "he has crossed Orcs with goblin-men" line in the film, which makes no sense even in the context of the film universe - which establishes "Orc" and "goblin" as synonyms in Moria. Why the scriptwriters didn't just say "he has crossed Orcs with Men" and have done with it, I have no idea. I do, though, have the uncomfortable suspicion that they may have misremembered, or misread, Gamling's line at Helm's Deep - "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and goblin-men" as "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and half-goblin-men ...".)
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Great stuff, as always!
I need to go through this entire thread when I have time for it - right now it's about time I get to bed!
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I think its fair to say that niether Tolkien or Jackson are experts on castle architecture. lol
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Some design thoughts on the 'real' Hornburg
Doug Larsen’s excellent article on Helm’s Deep (Miniature Wargames, November 1996, issue 162) first alerted me to the many inaccuracies of the non-canon sources about the physical layout of Helm’s Deep. This and many more in depth articles on battles in Middle Earth can be seen on his excellent site http://larsen-family.us/~1066/ In the main I agree with much of his analysis and his conclusions.
A castle in the round
The Hornburg is a free-standing castle, not one built up against the cliff face of the Thrihyrne as usually shown in role-playing maps and board games and subsequently cemented in popular lore through 'The Two Towers' film.
"At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone...."
The heel of rock is a projection from the main mountainside and its spur is the furthest-reaching extent of this ridge. This suggests the Hornburg was a far more three-dimensional structure perched on a rocky outcrop to one side of the coombe than the dug-in gun-emplacement like fortress popularly depicted.
Whether the walls of the Hornburg itself were built any taller than the Deeping Wall is a moot point. In the later stages of the attack, the defenders fought off repeated attempts by Isengarders to climb the citadel walls, suggesting that the ladders and grapnels provided were long enough for both without resort to over elaborate siege engines as in the film...
Tolkien described a postern gate on the side closest to the cliff side
“There was a small postern door that opened in an angle of the burg wall on the west, where the cliff stretched out to meet it. On that side a narrow path ran round towards the great gate, between the wall and the sheer brink of the Rock.”
This was used by Aragorn and Eomer and a handful of defenders to launch a flank attack against the enemy battering at the main gate. This shows that the outer walls of the Hornburg were not joined to the cliff face. Nor was the path to the gate broken by any sheer drop, so Gimli was able to join the fight in front of the gate without resorting to any comic assistance from Aragorn as in the film.
Aragorn is later described passing around the "circuit" of the outer wall which again suggests a continuous and fully-enclosed defensive ringwork. The mention of an ‘angle’ in the quote above suggests a more irregular, contour-hugging curtain wall, much like the hilltop Cathar castles of the South of France and hilltop Alcazars in Spain.
Tolkien never alludes to the popular horseshoe-shaped enclosure with cliffs to the rear popularised by the PJ film. It would be an absurd way to build a castle: the enemy could get on the steep cliffs above and rain down dislodged boulders into the place. A high sided narrow castle would also provide a measure of protection from above if overlooked, far better than a castle with a more open plan sprawling footprint.
The Keep
At the centre of the ring of defensive wall of the Hornburg is a single tower
“and within them was a lofty tower."
“Aragorn strode through the inner court, and mounted to a high chamber in the tower”.
This was the same tower from which
“above, the sound of the great horn of Helm rang out”
This is fully in line with the classic castle arrangement of inner bailey with donjon or keep. There is no mention of other towers on the wall perimeter (though there may be some projecting bastions). The tower containing Helm’s horn is featured in the PJ film, but incongruously to one side of the defence and so buttressed as to provide little or no defensive value through arrowslits or vantage points from which to defend either the Hornburg or the Deeping Wall. If compact enough, the central tower could provide covering fire for the outer walls in the same manner as concentric castles developed in Outremer. It suggests to me an arrangement with a shell keep containing ranges of buildings abutting the outer wall with a central tower, possibly like Tretower Castle in Powys, Wales...
The Causeway
The main approach towards the Hornburg is first described when Theoden’s party arrive.
“Before the causeway that crossed the stream they dismounted. In a long file they led their horses up the ramp and passed within the gates of the Hornburg.”
This implies a) that the approach way was narrow and b) that it was steep for a horse and rider to ascend while mounted, but not too steep that they could not charge down it when Theoden sallied forth.
“…towards the causeway and the ramp that led up to the Hornburg gates.”
This is described as a two stage process, first moving along the causeway and then ascending the ramp to the rocky platform upon which the Hornburg was built.
”They reached the summit of the rock; they drove towards the gates”.
A change in angle or line of approach would serve to disrupt an assault and hamper the use of siege engines. It would serve to prevent attackers gaining momentum from a dash against the gates. The sweeping curve of the film version lends no additional defensive value, whereas an approach angled the other way would force the attackers to expose their shieldless sides to the defenders. The approach was wide enough for a pair of rams to be wielded, one at each gate.
“while in their midst they bore two trunks of mighty trees”.
The Main gate
The immediate vicinity of the gate utilised the steep rocky outcrop and the rock strewn Deeping stream below which acted as a moat as it curled around the base of the Hornburg.
The main gates were timber with great iron hinges and bars. They were wide enough to admit cavalry and wide enough to merit two rams attacking it at once. No other detail is provided, and Tolkien makes no mention of even a rudimentary drawbridge or removable walkway and no portcullis when such measures would seem advisable.
The Rear Gate
An additional rear gate provided access from the Hornburg to the rear of the Deeping Coombe
“A broad stairway climbed from the Deep up to the Rock and the rear-gate of the Hornburg”
Because of the horseshoe shape of the film version, there was no rear, so this was omitted. The projecting spur described in the book provides a space behind which provided communication with the defile and the caves of Aglarond in the cliffs behind.
The Deeping Wall
"A wall, too, the men of old had made from the Hornburg to the southern cliff...."
“The Deeping Wall was twenty feet high” (or two storeys, which is considerably lower than visualised in the PJ film)
“and so thick that four men could walk abreast along the top” (which would make the walkway at least 8 feet wide, if not a little more, or 32-40mm wide in gaming terms).
It was;
“sheltered by a parapet over which only a tall man could look” (say 6 feet or a figure’s height or 25mm-30mm in modelling terms)
“Here and there were clefts in the stone through which men could shoot”.
On the face of it suggests an irregular arrangement of embrasures, but that makes little sense from a military architecture standpoint.
Another postern gate on the open Coombe side gave access to the wall walk.
“This battlement could be reached by a stair running down from a door in the outer court of the Hornburg”
When Eomer and Aragorn respond to the threat on the Hornburg Gate, they use this access point “Running like fire, they sped along the wall, and up the steps, and passed into the outer court upon the Rock.”
There were also steps at intervals from the Deeping Coombe behind…
“Three flights of steps led also up on to the wall from the Deep behind; but in front it was smooth, and the great stones of it were set with such skill that no foothold could be found at their joints”.
” and at the top they hung over like a sea-delved cliff”
This could be Tolkien-speak for projecting machiols by which the defenders could see (and shoot) at the base of the wall. Tolkien describes how Eomer readied the defence referring to
“the Deeping Wall and its tower”.
A tower of sorts is featured in the PJ films at the junction between the Deeping wall and the wall rising to join the Hornburg. It would make more sense for this to be at the end farthest from the Hornburg, providing additional covering fire along the front of the Deeping Wall.
The Culvert
The Deeping Wall was pierced by a culvert allowing egress for the Deeping stream. It was not the man height arched passageway depicted in the films, but just large enough for a man to crawl through, a couple of feet wide at most. It was small enough that it was not deemed necessary to fit iron bars. Indeed seasonal flood waters from the Deeping stream may well have precluded such a measure being practicable, since debris might build up without being washed through, causing flooding. This is precisely what happened when the way was stopped to prevent Uruk 'rats' sneaking in. The position of this culvert is not known, though geography would suggest it ran down the lowest point of the Coombe, but this curled around the base of the rocky outcrop of the Hornburg before turning and making its way down through the Dyke and into the wider Coombe below.
Fire of Saruman
This was the game changer in the assault, which was otherwise an old-school storm, with battering rams, ladders and grapnels. It is generally accepted as some form of rudimentary blasting charge cooked up by Saruman, and an art known to most high ranking wizards given Gandalf's fondness for making fireworks, though how it is kept viable in the pouring rain is a moot point.
In the book blasting charges were used on at least three occasions. Once inside the blocked culvert, and at least once more in subsequent attacks against the Deeping Wall. A blasting charge also clears the debris and barricades barring entrance through the shattered Hornburg gateway (almost blowing up Aragorn in the process).
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Brilliant topic. :D
"At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone...."
The mention of an ‘angle’ in the quote above suggests a more irregular, contour-hugging curtain wall, much like the hilltop Cathar castles of the South of France and hilltop Alcazars in Spain.
Reminds me of Carrickfergus castle, except it's on a heel of rock thrust outward into Belfast Lough. Though I'm biased. ;)
It would be an absurd way to build a castle: the enemy could get on the steep cliffs above and rain down dislodged boulders into the place.
I'd say there was a little confusion about "an angle of the burg wall on the west, where the cliff stretched out to meet it".
There are also the 'low hills' and 'long slopes' of the western side of the Deeping Coomb, that Gandalf and Erkenbrand (and about a thousand screaming Rohirrim) come charging down. The same side that the spur of rock thrusts out from, and the horseshoe gun-emplacement depictions of the Hornburg. Could I assume they'd be inviting and helpful to any enemy that wanted to scale Thrihyrne and rain rocks down on the keep?
A tower of sorts is featured in the PJ films at the junction between the Deeping wall and the wall rising to join the Hornburg. It would make more sense for this to be at the end farthest from the Hornburg, providing additional covering fire along the front of the Deeping Wall.
I pulled out The Atlas of Middle Earth after reading through this post. It features a tower too, and it's at the end farthest from the Hornburg! :) Nestled against the south-eastern cliff like a little mirror image of the horseshoeburg. Checking the source...
"The king and the men of his household were in the Hornburg, and there also were many of the Westfold-men. But on the Deeping Wall and it's tower, and behind it, Éomer arrayed most of the strength that he had..."
No mention of where the Deeping Wall's tower is placed, but I'll defer to wiser heads.
A change in angle or line of approach would serve to disrupt an assault and hamper the use of siege engines. It would serve to prevent attackers gaining momentum from a dash against the gates.
Again, wiser heads, deferring, but did Tolkien mention a change in angle of the causeway?
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Fantastic exploration of the source material Sukhe and Vermis!! Enjoying the thoughtfulness here.
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Fire of Saruman
This was the game changer in the assault, which was otherwise an old-school storm, with battering rams, ladders and grapnels. It is generally accepted as some form of rudimentary blasting charge cooked up by Saruman, and an art known to most high ranking wizards given Gandalf's fondness for making fireworks, though how it is kept viable in the pouring rain is a moot point.
In the book blasting charges were used on at least three occasions. Once inside the blocked culvert, and at least once more in subsequent attacks against the Deeping Wall. A blasting charge also clears the debris and barricades barring entrance through the shattered Hornburg gateway (almost blowing up Aragorn in the process).
It's also worth noting that it's the Uruk-hai (rather than Dunlendings) who deliver the charge, which neatly matches up with The Hobbit's description of goblins as interested in machineries of destruction:
"It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them ..."
So the "blasting fire" may well be Saruman's invention, but if so, it plays to the interests of his goblins, who put it to use on the battlefield.
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Looking at images of Carrickfergus Castle, I can see your point Vermis. I think I shall be looking more closely at the layout and architectural details. I'm liking the rocky promontory and the multi angular curtain wall, though I think I might go the way of Orford Castle with the tower/keep... ;) :D
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Didn't Tolkien make an actual drawing of the Hornburg? I think he did...
EDIT: yes he did... Google Hornburg Tolkien drawing and you'll find it.
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Wish I was half as thorough as some if these guys, DG. :D I'm sitting back and enjoying it as much as you.
EDIT: yes he did... Google Hornburg Tolkien drawing and you'll find it.
This one? (http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FIG_1_pg-101-932x863.jpg) I hadn't seen that before. Answers another question I was going to look up - if Tolkien intended a square or round tower. :D (though after googling Orford Castle, Sukhe, I don't blame you at all for preferring that!)
It looks like it's still got an element of the horseshoe design, but I'm too much of a medieval architecture noob to say more about that...
Looking at images of Carrickfergus Castle, I can see your point Vermis. I think I shall be looking more closely at the layout and architectural details.
... or that! I don't know what's info's online, but there are descriptions, illustrations and diagrams of it's history and construction in the castle's own souvenir book - this one (https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-59ec91e37d337a467f12a249c3d941c9?convert_to_webp=true). Been meaning for years to use it to build my own tiny version! I can grab a few excerpts, if you like.
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(http://larsen-family.us/~1066/meart/jrrhelmsdeep.jpg)
Is this the one?
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I think so. There don't seem to be any others. It strikes me because, just after peering at the plan of the Hornburg and Helm's Gate in The Atlas of Middle Earth, I thought it was 'just' another horseshoe depiction. Turns out it's pretty faithful to Tolkien's own conception:
(https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-59ec91e37d337a467f12a249c3d941c9?convert_to_webp=true)
It might still be bad castle design! I don't know if that small ~30°, ~60' break in the wall, or the shoulder of the cliff 'stretching out to meet it', makes much difference.
(I've also just read that the movie Helm's Deep was intended to look like a WWI bunker or gun emplacement, due to Tolkien's own military service. Can't help but think 'I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations...')
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Well that's an eye opener and no mistake! :o :o :o
I hadn't realised Tolkien had drawn the Hornburg. The broad sweeping arc of the Deeping Dyke indicated by the drawing and the map in the 'Atlas' both go a long way to explaining that Theoden was accurate in saying it was indefensible "Nay were are too few to defend the dike; said Theoden. It is a mile long or more, and the breach in it is wide."
Interestingly, the drawing shows what I take to be periodic turrets? in both the Deeping Wall and the far wall. Plus there are what appear to be additional angled bastions on the far wall. There is also no discernible tower at the end of the Deeping Wall which makes it look like this is an earlier vizualisation than the final book description.
The stand off from the cliff-side makes sense distancing the inner compound from being overlooked from above, but as Vermis points out I'm not sure of the practical sense to the break in the outer wall at the cliff. In effect the area behind the Deeping Wall serves as an outer bailey, though unusually it can only be accessed through the Hornburg. I also can't find any reference to an outer courtyard in the book, only an inner one. If you removed the broken outer circuit and wall and just had the unbroken inner one it would make more sense militarily. Also the causeway approach is far too straight. Even with a steep gradient it would present no significant difficulty to siege engines, even rudimentary battering rams. The Romans at Masada had a far steeper gradient and still managed it...
The look of the Hornburg is reminiscent of shell keeps, and reminds me very much of reconstructions of the revetted motte and bailey castle at South Mimms.
http://www.castlestudiesgroup.org.uk/_wp_generated/wp3e4564eb_06.png
This had a tunnel approach cut into the base of the motte up through to the higher level and would not strictly have had an inner courtyard since the motte and tower defence were effectively treated as a single build.
The insertion of square towers into pre-existing motte and bailey castles in England was largely a feature of the C12 and the same use of steps cut through the motte is replicated to some degree in stone at Farnham Castle
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/hftfudsqa6uraj34i1ll-signature-b364ae7451744733dcc755380a0fdd37c48e35141dcd6c4651f0227b4c826d43-poli-141107020142-conversion-gate02/95/routledgemedievalenglandasocialhistoryandarchaeologyfromtheconquestto1600addec1995-30-638.jpg?cb=1415325756
That might be what is rendered in Tolkien's drawing which has been misinterpreted in the 'Atlas' and might explain the disparity. Since the Hornburg is on a rocky outcrop this would look cool build in stone... ;)
As I surmised, the tower is tall enough to overlook and provide covering fire for the outer walls. I'm not sure why the square keep's corners (which are effectively blind spots) would point at the front and rear entrances (the weakest points of the defence). This is why circular towers were invented after all.
Serious food for thought here... 8)
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I'm having a little trouble following. Going by the title of the Farnham Castle image, 'the keep' in both these real life examples refers to the tower, the surrounding wall (the 'shell' of the shell keep?) and the open space in between; as opposed to the keep being just the central building or tower, with an inner courtyard surrounded by a wall. Is that how you interpret the tower and the inner wall in Tolkien's sketch?
That brings up more questions. o_o
If these examples don't strictly have an inner courtyard, how does that square with the mentions of the inner courtyard in TTT?
That is, if the inner courtyard would have been the area inside the inner wall, as per South Mimms and Farnham, why is the area enclosed by the circuit wall referred to as the inner courtyard? (Again, if I read your interpretation correctly) Why would there be both a keep and courtyard in-one, represented by the inner wall, and an additional 'inner' courtyard represented by the outer wall?
Disregarding any misconceptions by the author, that is, which I still think is throwing a spanner in the works, somewhere. Though going by the scale bars, the diameter of what 'Atlas' calls the inner courtyard (assuming it's accurate to the measurements of Tolkien's conception) seems to be more comparable to the wall of Farnham Castle: ~30m. Is it possible that the Hornburg's circuit wall encloses an outer courtyard or bailey all the same, even though it's not mentioned in TTT? With the spur of rock being a natural 'motte', big enough to hold both keep and courtyard? (I'll have to re-read, but were isengarders able to directly assault the circuit wall anywhere, except via the ramp and rear stairway?)
That's not to dispute what you say. It's just that I'm fairly confused and, as said, not exactly au fait.
(I can see me ending up like Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters, obsessively shaping mini Hornburgs out of mashed potatoes (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buGjyZcbioc))
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Like you I am feeling an urge to model in mash potato at this point.... lol lol lol
Looking more closely at the two images, I'm afraid I just don't trust the accuracy of the 'Atlas' diagram interpreting Tolkien's sketch.
If you look at the sketch, just to the right of the main gate, the outer wall of the Hornburg appears to curve inwards to join the inner one. A second wall appears to extends from close by this junction and runs to the cliff face with additional V shaped bastions in front. This is presumably where the postern gate is positioned and you can just make out the path immediately below the outer wall which ran from the postern gate round to the main gate. This is not reflected in the 'Atlas' diagram which is altogether far more geometric and idealised.
If you look at the tower and its immediate circuit more closely, it is shaded almost to suggest roof tops, NOT like an open space. Tolkien's style elsewhere in the drawing uses lines to suggest and emphasize contours and faces. This seems deliberate and not a fudge or simple overshading.
I believe this represents something like Tretower Castle, where a tower was inserted within an existing O and internal buildings were created spanning the space between the two. This would create something like a 2 tier wedding cake. It would explain why there is reference to only one court in The Two Towers. The 'inner court' illustrated on the 'Atlas' is not open space at all but a building. This would mean the 'inner court' refers to the enclosure on top of the Hornrock. As I surmised earlier the enclosed space within the Deeping Coombe thus becomes a de facto outer bailey.
This would be entirely consistent with a logical 'real world' chronology of occupation and modification of the site...
1) The original Deeping dyke and rampart were cut to create a large enclosure in front of the Deeping coombe with pasturage for livestock etc. creating a 'hillfort' in a period analagous to prehistory.
2) The Deeping Wall is constructed in stone at a narrower point within this enclosure utilising the outcrop of the Hornrock. It is built up its side over the Deeping stream and round the edge of the outcrop hugging the edge and extending to the far cliff side. An enclosure wall is extended from where the Deeping stream cuts through and encloses the remaining part of the Hornrock extending to the cliff side behind.
3) The first 'burg' an inner 'O' shaped fort (the shell keep) is built within this upper enclosure.
4) Helm Hammerhand remodels the shell keep with an inner tower creating the two-tier citadel.
The Hornrock was too sheer for an assault except through the main and rear gates. Once the Isengarders had gained the Hornrock through these gates, they were able to assail the Hornburg itself from all round. The defenders repelled repeated attempts to gain the Hornburg walls before Theoden's sally.
This seems to make sense to me...
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Interesting discussion.
However I doubt that the "inner court" is covered as discussed for a couple of reasons.
Firstly judging by the scale (and assuming the scale matches tolkiens original intent) that inner wall is around 100ft (30m) in width. Estimating the tower to be 1/3 of that width, that leaves the span from tower to inner wall to be in the order of 30ft (10m). That's a very very large single span. I accept that middle earth is a magical realm, but it is very grounded in medieval Western European history and technology. Yes, 10m could be spanned with supporting columns, but why? It's an awful lot of work to produce a covered courtyard, and for what benefit? Certainly both the inner and outer courtyards would support buildings but I'd expect them to be 'organic' mismatched constructions in wood and stone. These buildings would be roofed for weather protection, but what real benefit is there in roofing the spaces between buildings?
Secondly, any roof over the inner courtyard would make the whole thing pitch black. You couldn't put significant openings in the outer wall to admit light as the wall is a defensive structure. Putting enough openings in the roof to admit light would mostly eliminate the sense in roofing it in the first place. A roofed inner courtyard of that size would be a bleak horrible space.
I think your chronology makes sense, and your observations about the defensibility, steepness/straightness of the causeway, lack of turrets/towers in the wall and location of the posture gate all make sense to me.
We have to remember Tolkien was a historian/linguist/author. Whilst he often had great internal consistency in his writings, there ARE mistakes and inconsistencies. Whilst I'm sure he had an interest in architecture, he never set out in his books to provide blueprints and often his language uses words with a variety of meanings which can lead to misinterpretations.
I'm enjoying the debate, but would be happy with any terrain/model that came close to the TTT diagram.
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I agree the donjon and Hornburg are perhaps the most interesting and contentious part of the defensive works, open to interpretation by JRRT's evocative but vague language.
I find it amusing that many 'fans' don't realise that both Orthanc and the Hornburg were originally built by Gondor and are pretty much contemporary builds, yet if the films are to be believed there is little architecturally to suggest these structures had a common origin.
The medieval tech is far better than you might think...
Restormel Castle comfortably achieves 7m roof spans on it's curtain wall buildings
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/18/0f/e0180ff7c07e78bf5621c46c35e61848.jpg
while Hedingham castle (1140's) achieves the largest single span arch in Europe. And a sight to behold it is. I've stood underneath that huge arch in the hall and gazed up in wonder... :D
http://home2.btconnect.com/Crusader-Product/Hedingham-Castle/hedingham-great-hall1.jpg
Tretower castle apparently was not roofed all the way round, possibly 2/3 to 3/4 of its circuit was occupied by two storey curtain walls with little light. It must indeed have been a dingy place.
http://i2.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article6289528.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/JS28564424.jpg
http://www.castlewales.com/tretwr12.jpg
The similarities between this and Launceston castle
http://www.dronestagr.am/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Castle-1a.jpg
and Tolkien's Hornburg seem entirely plausible to me. The fact that both Launceston and Tretower have circular donjons is down to their chronology. The shell keeps were added first once the man-made earth mottes had time to settle and the donjon was inserted afterwards. By that time the military tech had changed and the transition from square to circular tower masonry styles had been achieved. The Hornburg was built on a rock foundation, so the familiar castle development from square to faceted to circular style need not be applied on practical grounds.
In these types of combi-castle, the halls and living quarters were often located around the periphery (where there was more light). Standalone keeps like Hedingham had a status and residential function. The central tower in a 'combi' was designed for pure defence and refuge. Either way its an interesting alternative to the run of the mill castles you see...
I'll be exploring a feasible plan and build in the not too distant future.
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My speculative chronology for the occupation of the Deeping Coombe and the Hornburg...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/Helms%20Deep_zpsi2iqchgu.jpg~original)
And an initial sketch of the Hornburg, with a central square donjon/tower at the heart of a polygonal two storey circuit wall with gateway and talus all around. The machiols are the same as for the Deeping Wall giving it the overhang described as hanging over like a sea-delved cliff.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/The%20Hornburg_zpsh7ijzryb.jpg~original)
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I know you are entitled to interpret it any way you want, but to my eyes the Tolkien illustration shows a free standing fortress where the outer wall doesn't intersect the cliff and the right hand side wall is about a third the length of the of the left hand one.
(http://www.joethomlinson.com/pics/helmsdeep.png)
Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson
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One thing you might consider doing is loading up Lord of the Rings: Online and wandering around Helms Deep a bit there, it's a quite interesting take on things and could work well for ideas.
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I know interpreting other people's sketches etc. is fraught, but I think jthomlin may have overlooked the rear curtain wall (see highlighted area) which extends from where the Deeping wall reaches the summit of the Hornrock, back around the rear edge of the rock and joins the cliff face to the rear of the Hornburg. This cliff face appears to have been scooped out creating a kind of amphitheatre shape into which the Hornburg was constructed, but as a free standing structure. I know the proportions of my sketch are off...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/helmsdeep2_zpsa6meqg4k.png~original)
This is how I read the sketch with the additional wall marked 'X'.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Rohirrim/Hornburg%20revised%20sketch%20layout_zpslbxjxzxe.jpg~original)
The junction between the Deeping Wall and the round curtain walls of the Hornburg is more pronounced than my original sketch (Phase 2). This suggests the Hornburg circuit was freestanding and the Deeping Wall abutted it, rather than merely being an extension of it at the top of the Hornrock.
I'm not altogether convinced creating a bespoke Helm's Deep is necessarily going to work for me. Since I'm likely to go down the modular route (for storage considerations as much as anything else), I may follow Doug Larsen's route and model a freestanding castle that is broadly representative of Tolkien's concept, but with mods that mean I can morph it into a freestanding castle for GoT.
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I know interpreting other people's sketches etc. is fraught, but I think jthomlin may have overlooked the rear curtain wall (see highlighted area) which extends from where the Deeping wall reaches the summit of the Hornrock, back around the rear edge of the rock and joins the cliff face to the rear of the Hornburg.
Sorry I can't see that, it looks like the near bank of the stream and the slope of the cliff behind the main tower. If it was a wall I would have thought there was at least a tower or two along it like the others and it should hit the cliff face at a similar height to right hand wall.
But hey, based on a fuzzy enlargement of quick sketch of a fictional location, either way seems more accurate than most previous interpretations ... ;)
Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson
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So if there's anyone out there in the UK who wants to stage a mega Middle Earth or fantasy based bash at Salute 2017????..... ;)
I love fantasy mass battle and have a massive 15mm collection....would enjoy a large demo game at next year's Salute.
there are pictures of some of my collection on my blog
www.warrenswargamesrantings.blogspot.com
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As part of my 2017 initiative I have temporarily switched focus from Westeros back onto my armies of Middle Earth.
I have a huge backlog of minis waiting to be organised and painted up. A large portion of these are GW LotR minis rebased for mass battles. I am concentrating on basic army building - finally addressing the hordes of the unwashed... 12 figures at a time.
Top on my bucket list is a mass battle refight of Pelennor fields. To this end I have amassed several armies worth of baddies, siege engines etc. Time to roll my sleeves up and crack on...
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Keep crackin' Suk!
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Keep crackin' Suk!
What he said, simply love this thread!
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As part of my 2017 initiative I have temporarily switched focus from Westeros back onto my armies of Middle Earth.
I have a huge backlog of minis waiting to be organised and painted up. A large portion of these are GW LotR minis rebased for mass battles. I am concentrating on basic army building - finally addressing the hordes of the unwashed... 12 figures at a time.
Top on my bucket list is a mass battle refight of Pelennor fields. To this end I have amassed several armies worth of baddies, siege engines etc. Time to roll my sleeves up and crack on...
Very much looking forward to new pics!
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Thanks to Andym's magic wand, the veil has now been lifted over the images on this thread...