Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Leftblank on April 05, 2016, 04:13:58 PM
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After a discussion in a Dutch forum about the short-sighted policy of a group of European tournament/powergamers to develop their own 9th age version of WHFB, instead of using Kings of War like the Americans, I found a blog about the death of the DBM tournament scene in New Zealand. Field of Glory caused a rift and that was the end.
Call me a pessimist, but I expect trench wars between rule adepts and after that, a WHFB-tournament scene that will slowly fade away.
Full blog here: http://amsterdam6shooters.nl/node/690 (http://amsterdam6shooters.nl/node/690).
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I think the fade is absolutely confirmed. New customer-based rules or not, a non-supported product simply won't grow and continue to motivate players etc. Remember, a lot of the players who felt particularly spited have sworn off GW altogether. This means those players wouldn't be buying more models, building more armies - even if they chose to use a kit-bashed set of rules for tournaments.
There will, I'm sure, be plenty of happy Warhammer players who will soldier on in their garages, clubs, and game-rooms...but any system which is no longer backed/supported will probably die a slow agonizing death on the tournament/con circuit.
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Agreed, 9th Age to me seemed all rather silly and alot of bluster while I haven't been following it closely (I went to KoW along with a few Club members and the rest of the WhFB players just quit after at best playing AoS once or twice) I have the same feeling as you that'll all just end in tears and splits with more bitterness thrown in for good measure.
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Re: "Fade"
I got back into table top gaming over ten years ago with a highly competitive WFB gaming group here in Northern California. They played in the big GW tourney's back in the day, traveled all over the US on the indy tourney circuit and even had several players on the last couple of US teams for the ETC.
What's left of them have gone over to Malifaux and their compadres in other geographies - Sacto, SoCal, Texas - have gone over to KoW.
Sad, whimpering end of an era of great gaming fun. Nothing lasts forever.
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Pessimist much? :P I'm not particularly interested in any continuation of the WFB rules, but isn't it a tad premature to call time of death just yet? Does something like Blood Bowl not count when it comes to examples of dead' games not just thriving, but building a tourney scene?
I don't know if 9th Age is dead on it's feet, but I feel it needs a bit more analysis than 'lookit DBM' and 'I don't like it'.
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That's what a club mate said as well. But Blood Bowl is a special case because
- a) it's a quickplay board game with a low number of miniatures, with two teams in a boxed set. So it's easier to organize tournaments or join a tournament once per year with the old box that you still own
- ]b) BB has no direct rule rivals. With wargame miniatures, you can with the same armies switch to other rule systems. With my Blood Bowl set I can't play a totally different fantasy football game, say 'Warball' and quarrel that Warball has a better balance, or that Blood Bowl has a better 'fluff'. No rift risk.
- c) BB tournaments still survive. Just like DBM, FoG or future 9th age. However, the regular competitions and more frequent local tournaments are gone. Fewer players, less tournaments. Here in Holland we had several BB competitions in several cities. Not anymore.
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I am totally with you on this one, Leftblank.
Though I see the risks and reasons somewhere else.
I think KOW is great. No doubt about it. And up to this point I like what they have done with 9th Age. It is really not bad, not bad at all.
As I see it, both games are different enough that each of them could have its fair share of what was once the Warhammer-scene. And it would be fine.
It was a large number of gamers, and even half, ah, even less than a third or so would be enough to keep a game going.
So, I see no problem in the divide itself. I get it, the two games are just different. And as I said, the base is large enough, no need to get all players to play the same one.
BUT I see a divide within the 9th Age "movement". That has already happened. Its on the way.
I think there were already two cases where groups split up during the development process and started their own thing cause there was something they felt was important and the rest of developers didnt want to do it their way...
It is also one clear case of "Too many cooks..."
There are just too many people working on 9th Age. I have that firm belief that you need a vision if you want to make a great game.
You need a single or maximum a handful of people who know where the journey is going.
The moment you exceed a certain number of people views and directions become too many to be channelled.
If 9th Age had been kept the project of a small group (I think that is how it started) I wouldnt stand here and doubt the thing.
But they made the mistake to invite anyone who wants to help. As far as I know they dont even have any criteria to determine who is fit to work on it and who is not.
That is where I see the (big) problem.
This is why the 9th Age wont last very long. Not the competition from Kings Of War.
The best thing to do now...is to bet your money on KOW or keep playing old editions of Warhammer.
Here in Germany there are a lot of people playing 9th Age, KOW and the older editions.
As far as I can tell its pretty evenly split between those.
And there are people, like myself, who like to play all of them. I prefer KOW and the old editions, but yeah... Im gonna do a match of 9th Age if someone asks me. No problem.
But I am convinced that we will see a decline there. 9th Age wont last.
The best idea for all lovers of Warhammer would have been to just stick to one of the old editions.
Probably 7th Edition.
And then, slowly, over time we could have tweaked the rules in terms of balance. And introduced rules for the models that came out during the 8th Edition.
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Yes, WFB looses players and fans and therefore will or is no longer the game where can show up in a club and easily find other players.
However as long as groups (like mine) play it and there are community projects, I think not everything is lost.
So we just struggle on every friday night!
cheers Thomas
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Will the problem be attracting new players to these systems (8/9th)?
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That will be a huge issue...depending on which ranges never materialize again for fantasy. Now, you can simply use a lot of "counts as" stuff, but with certain lines and miniatures being terminated from production you're only driving the price up on ebay miniatures etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't see some catastrophic collapse of the entire fantasy gaming world...but with a lot of folks leaving GW, and ditching AoS you will definitely see a slow fade. Part of the excitement of the "GW hobby" as it were...is the meta game, the expectation of new army books, new models, new releases, new tournament packs etc. That's all gone. Very few people collect a fantasy army, and keep it on the shelf for ten years, playing with it constantly.
I do wish them luck though! I suppose there will be a couple more years where the community can stay excited etc.
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- c) BB tournaments still survive. Just like DBM, FoG or future 9th age. However, the regular competitions and more frequent local tournaments are gone. Fewer players, less tournaments. Here in Holland we had several BB competitions in several cities. Not anymore.
The league in Utrecht is still alive! plays twice a month with 6/7 player average.
DJ
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Warhammer fantasy was a huge part of my youth and introduction to wargaming si I was very sad to see it go hut for me at least I'd had enough of the game. I played a few games of 8th and just didn't enjoy it. KoW I find much more enjoyable. I'm not a tournament guy but if I were to do one the approach of KoW appeals a lot more for a competitive game.
That said I've got rulebooks for editions 3rd through 8th and can't bring myself to get rid of them so maybe I'll come back to it!
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The league in Utrecht is still alive! plays twice a month with 6/7 player average.
DJ
Really? Where? I live in Utrecht, and I'd like to try BB! :)[/list]
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Really? Where? I live in Utrecht, and I'd like to try BB! :)[/list]
We are playing at "De Korenbeurs" near Central Station. Regular game nights are the first thursday and the third tuesday every month; mostly starting around 20:00. Just looked at the leagueforum and tomorrow evening 4 players are expected (I'm skipping this one).
DJ
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Welcome to the 9th age. Not being taken too seriously at all.
(http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?attachment/1530-workflow-the-9th-age-png/)
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I really miss DBM. FoG is a far inferior game. :'(
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The inevitable has happened: GW announced 'Matched Play'. Which means that 9th Age has not only KoW and casual AoS as rival, but a tounament AoS as well. Why would new generations of tournament players choose 9th Age if they're happy with AoS?
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I prefer Matthias Elisons new Unoffcial 9th edition , he has been updating all the army books too in a Ravening hordes style . Look for the Warhammer Armies Project
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I really miss DBM. FoG is a far inferior game. :'(
I thought that DBM had a certain elegence & flow to it. FoG had some great ideas, but in a practical sense I thought they needlessly bogged games down.
For a while -- maybe around 6th ed? -- I thought WFB was distilling its rules into something elegent. But then they also bogged themselves down with piles of disorganized complexity (especially via the special rules sprawling across a bookshelf of army books.) AoS seems like an attempt to simplify things again.... but (unfortunately) without enough refinement.
I have no idea about 9th age, and really don't care about "WFB" as a game mechanic anymore. I still enjoy some of the background, but if there's going to be a break in the continuity of rules, there are better systems out there instead of trying to continue to patch WFB's old mechanics.
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I thought that DBM had a certain elegence & flow to it. FoG had some great ideas, but in a practical sense I thought they needlessly bogged games down.
For a while -- maybe around 6th ed? -- I thought WFB was distilling its rules into something elegent. But then they also bogged themselves down with piles of disorganized complexity (especially via the special rules sprawling across a bookshelf of army books.) AoS seems like an attempt to simplify things again.... but (unfortunately) without enough refinement.
I have no idea about 9th age, and really don't care about "WFB" as a game mechanic anymore. I still enjoy some of the background, but if there's going to be a break in the continuity of rules, there are better systems out there instead of trying to continue to patch WFB's old mechanics.
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This is my view too.
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I find it to be the case that predictions of demise (often) become a self-fulfilling prophecy - the more often more people repeat it, the less confidence those who are interested in it will have to continue.
When this is a free project, that actually aims to genuinely rebalance and rethink all aspects of WHFB (whilst still retaining the basic mechanics/appeal of the original game), it is doubly sad that people seem in a rush to draw lines in the sand and proclaim the project's demise.
I mean, it is a free ruleset, that you don't have to join in with if you don't want to, and that lets you play with your existing model collection in the way that you apparently liked (but maybe sometimes wished was better balanced/fairer). The rules tweaks and army changes also let you field those models that have sat on your shelf for too long, or that might encourage you to build some spare models with that pile of leftover weapons that were not super-efficient in the last edition. The final army lists will even have themed subfactions to provide more game variety to your existing model collection.
So why be so quick to dump all over it?
Lack of official support? Lack of tournaments? Lack of the exact GW models to buy from GW? Of all the places on the internet, I have seen many truly remarkable efforts here on LAF which prove that if people want to do it, and have fun doing it, then it should (and can) be done.