Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: manic _miner on April 21, 2016, 04:34:56 PM
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Just wondering if any members have had any bad experiences selling stuff on the various groups or forums?
Only asking as i have had one recently.This is a first for me so it has knocked my confidence selling stuff.I have been made to feel like a criminal and even called so.Also banned from the group too.
Any thoughts from others would be greatly appreciated.
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I've seen a few on the Facebook trading groups. Mainly for Games Workshop junk. I guess it's the moronic culture that GW seems to try to breed in their customers.
I saw a guy selling really, really old kits and he was accused of selling recasts because the resin was a different colour. Despite the fact FW's resin has changed colour a bunch of times over the years.
I don't think any recasters even have the kit he was selling. lol
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I got stiffed by a trade on an RPG site a few years back where the other fellow had several thousand posts. I kept bugging him to pay up, send the stuff he promised, or return what I had sent him.
Instead a couple of months later he relisted what he was supposed to send me as well as listing the items I had sent him. When I posted a warning for others I was banned from the site.
I had really needed those items (I really needed the cash for my items but had a buyer for what he was sending) so I definitely harbored some ill will towards the guy for a while and for a little longer a bit more for the moderators who stepped in to shut me down because the other person was "a great guy and terrific poster".
Still, I realized there wasn't anything to be done so I let it go. It hasn't even made me that cautious on trades and sales since as I had lost some naivety but wasn't about to lose any decency over that fellow.
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I've been screwed over pretty decently a handful of times. Two in particular, one from the Dakka forums and one from TMP before Bill locked my account.
In both cases I sent stuff in trade, one the trade was for painting service so the fucker also got the stuff he was supposed to paint. In the other I sent out my stuff and the bastard receiving it never sent his. In each case I ate a couple hundred bucks and was less than happy.
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Recently, nothing that a little reminder or nudge could not solve on a FB group or Forum, and 1 local chap who I filed a police report for but the stuff showed after 2 months so I let that slide. In the past twice with trades and the other side dropping off the side of the planet or something and me losing out on stuff. Just chalked it up to a life's lesson, and got on with it. There is always a bad apple in the bunch, somewhere, that takes advantage of others. 99,9% of the others are cool.
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It's not particularly negative, but the worst I've had is someone saying the miniature never arrived, about a month after I posted it. It was from the UK to Holland and I had no reason to disbelieve him, so I made the decision to refund his money.
I have no way of knowing if it really arrived or not, and he made the choice of going with unrecorded postage because it was a lot cheaper, so I could easily have just kept the money. But I figured losing a couple of quid (I think it was about £6 all told) was a small price to pay really to have it wrapped up harmoniously. I just assumed he was telling the truth and it got lost and voluntarily gave him his money back (he never even asked for a refund). The vast majority of times I've dealt with other collector's it's been fine and drama free.
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I've had dozens (perhaps hundreds...) of trades online and never gotten screwed. I've done a few at Dakka and Lots at TMP and Bartertown. It's good to have lots of outlets.
These aren't hard-and-fast rules, but I've found that:
-Oddities, historicals and older stuff in the USA moves quickly on TMP.
-GW moves quickly on Dakka
-GW and other modern stuff sells quickly on Bartertown and when oddities and older off-brand stuff shows up there you can often get great deals.
I'd start using Lead Adventure too if the mods would get around to requiring country of origin stamps on the subject line topics. Otherwise it's a needle in a haystack looking for USA-based sellers and I've no interest in paying cross-ocean shipping charges.
Regardless of venue I occasionally trade and when I do it's either a small deal and/or the guy with less feedback ships first. Bartertown is great for this since it's easy to see the experience of who you're dealing with and the mods are quite good about policing the site. I've been around long enough that my feedback usually means I have leverage to ensure that my things come first when dealing with a newer trader. As regards shipping, I require Tracking #'s for all but the smallest/cheapest packages.
Off-gaming, I've also had very good experiences buying and selling instruments and parts at Talkbass.com. They have a feedback and moderation system that is similar to Bartertown in it's effectiveness.
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I got stiffed by a trade on an RPG site a few years back where the other fellow had several thousand posts. I kept bugging him to pay up, send the stuff he promised, or return what I had sent him.
Instead a couple of months later he relisted what he was supposed to send me as well as listing the items I had sent him. When I posted a warning for others I was banned from the site.
I had really needed those items (I really needed the cash for my items but had a buyer for what he was sending) so I definitely harbored some ill will towards the guy for a while and for a little longer a bit more for the moderators who stepped in to shut me down because the other person was "a great guy and terrific poster".
Still, I realized there wasn't anything to be done so I let it go. It hasn't even made me that cautious on trades and sales since as I had lost some naivety but wasn't about to lose any decency over that fellow.
Did you ship to a PO Box? If not, then couldn't you have contacted the police about theft or fraud?
I haven't had any bad experiences directly through buying from people on TMP, but I did buy more than what I should have, which hurt a few months later.
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Not generally. I've only traded on LAF, Steve Deans site, Oldhammer forum and a couple from sales groups on Facebook. A lot of times I've paid by PayPal as a gift and, I suppose, luckily never been ripped off.
I've only ever had one parcel go missing (as a buyer) and despite not asking for a refund, the seller sent some replacement figures which was extremely generous of him.
I'm sorry you've had a bad experience manic_miner. :(
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Generally on forums I have had very good experiences.
Only had one that didn't go smoothly - swapped some old 1/72nd plastics for some medieval metals. The guy wasn't too pleased with the plastics - even though I had sent some photos and offered more before agreeing the trade. Ended up sending him £10 to balance the deal. Wasn't a big deal, more the hassle of it.
Largest hassle was over £1.50 of green stuff off eBay. Seller was really hard work, to get him to send it again.
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I must be lucky, I've never had a bad deal off here.
Worst was paints not showing up off eBay but the seller (flying tigercat, in case you're wondering) replaced them immediately. It was over the Christmas period and deliveries are always a mess around here so that wasn't a big deal.
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I have had one bad sale on a local wargaming forum but everything else has been fine. The sale in question was due to the purchaser lying that he had not received the goods and then had the stupidity to post a picture of his home based game showing said vehicle in it.
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Did you ship to a PO Box? If not, then couldn't you have contacted the police about theft or fraud?
I could have but honestly that would have been throwing more time and possibly money away. Plus the website with the details was blocked to me.
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I have been caught twice on forums, (both times on Bartertown), a couple of times on ebay as a buyer (pay me by gift scam) and a seller (item never turned up claim) but 3 times with fraudulent painting services. Twice I have had to resort to police action and once open a legal dispute under the EU small claims procedure. 2 of the 3 got resolved but each left me well out of pocket.
The most common scam I see these days is the "payment only by paypal gift". Which when you reply "OK send me the stuff first and when it arrives safely I will pay you by gift", surprisingly scammers never will. Has happened to me once on here.
I report that to PayPal now.
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@robh: I think that with trades here on LAF the "paypal as gift" works well. I can relate if the seller doesn't want to pay the paypal fee and IMO it makes more sense if the buyer pays it.
I have had one scam on eBay, where I bought an expensive aibrush in Asia...which never arrived. And as soon as I couldn't get the money back through paypal, the seller went silent.
Here on LAF I had two trades which left me with a sour taste. Both involved painted miniatures which were inadequately packed. So the metal miniatures were severly chipped and the plastic miniatures were broken. A shame and unnecessary.
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Only one negative experience on here, and no goods or cash were exchanged so no real damage. Had a massive clear out years ago and put it all on TMP, shifted the lot without any problems. I think the forums that try to create a community cuts down on the dodgy.
Paypal as gift always seems sensible for this sort of thing, we're all meant to be friends on here and it isn't a commercial venture for most of the people offloading their excess stuff in the marketplace. I always try to keep prices fairly token when I'm having a wargames cull, take out the fees and it's just not worth the time spent packing and posting.
Where I've been shafted repeatedly was when I started the figure painting business. Lost count of the number of painted figures that "never arrived", or arrived but the buyer seemed to vanish. Then there's the guy that had some weird specific requirements, to keep it anonymous I'll say he asked for me to not paint the bases, then on delivery threw a fit cos the figures were not properly painted. Why? Not done the bases!? Payment up front and always special delivery from then on.
As a buyer on eBay is where it can become a minefield, counterfeit DS games, board games with missing pieces, completely different figures to the picture, and my favourite, the Epic40k "predators" that were rhinos with bits of ork war wagon stuck to them. lol
The best protection I've found as a seller is to always charge P&P at cost and make sure it's special delivery if you're selling anything really important or irreplaceable. Then hang on to the money until you have confirmation from the buyer that they received the parcel and are happy with it. A refund is a pain, but at least it stops any unpleasantness and you'll only lose the value of your unwanted item.
J
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I've only had one thing go missing. Here on LAF but I reckon seller was true to word. Urban war sumatori, still want those things too. Seller offered refund but I said no.
With PayPal as gift, I may be to untrusting, it's always a red flag to me so I offer to put in a few extra monies to cover the cost.
Personally I think of you are selling something you should take into account the fees with your selling price.
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Am I missing something on paypal/lead adv market etiquette here?
Prior to selling a couple of times I'd only ever bought stuff and every time it was pay as a gift. And stuff arrived fine. I assumed that was how it was done.
Seems there's a school of thought otherwise. Maybe change my payment options in future.
Shan't cry for paypal in the meantime though, buggers get enough out of me in the day job. lol
J
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I've only had one thing go missing. Here on LAF but I reckon seller was true to word. Urban war sumatori, still want those things too. Seller offered refund but I said no.
Yeah, these were mine. It still bugs me they never arrived. I hope some mailman or customs dude has fun with them :(
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Am I missing something on paypal/lead adv market etiquette here?
Prior to selling a couple of times I'd only ever bought stuff and every time it was pay as a gift. And stuff arrived fine. I assumed that was how it was done.
Seems there's a school of thought otherwise. Maybe change my payment options in future.
Shan't cry for paypal in the meantime though, buggers get enough out of me in the day job. lol
J
The idea is to give people protection in case something does go missing. Imagine I send something to you, you don't get it but you sent me friends and family. I've got no legal obligation to give you the money back and you have no recourse to get it back.
As I've said, it seems uncommon on these forums for that to happen but for places like Dakka Dakka and Bartertown I'd be much warier about a seller who wanted me to send it F&F.
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The idea is to give people protection in case something does go missing. Imagine I send something to you, you don't get it but you sent me friends and family. I've got no legal obligation to give you the money back and you have no recourse to get it back.
As I've said, it seems uncommon on these forums for that to happen but for places like Dakka Dakka and Bartertown I'd be much warier about a seller who wanted me to send it F&F.
Gotcha. Sort of assumed PP had protection on F&F too. Quite worrying, what if you type the email address wrong!
Of course the dodgy get you both ways. Regular paypal always takes the side of the buyer who says "they never sent it". Got a friend who ebays a lot and regularly gets screwed even when he's got proof of delivery.
All quite depressing really. Sorry, the whole point of this thread seemed to be to convince Manic Miner that he's safe to get rid of his unwanted stuff. I'm sure he's fine on here really.
J
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Trades I have never done. Call me paranoid but I never felt easy with the concept of sending stuff to strangers outside of commercial
Only times ripped off is many years ago when I bought a few miniatures related things on Ebay then Ebay closed the seller's account and I never received my money back. Both times the stuff was IP violation related (and I did not know there even was a product of those types to have an IP to be violated) and EBay/Paypal contacts said - paraphrased- "Not our problem." Which was weird because both of them said it was the other's responsibility. This before they merged and later broke off as separate entities. I decided to let it ride and it has never happened again.
"Explanations? We don' need stinkin' explanations," moment but bureaucracies can be weird that way.
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It's all about being knowledgeable and knowing your options. A huge number of the negative deals I see folks reporting on are partially their own fault.
-Paypal F&F not only is dodgy, but is actually against paypal rules for purchases. It may be worthwhile in some cases, (I've done it) but folks need to recognize that it's a risk and if you get shafted, you've got no recourse and only yourself to blame.
-Ebay/paypal/credit card purchases: Know and watch your "dispute" deadline. Don't wait until the dispute deadline is passed to file one. It's a hassle, but if you let someone jerk you around until the dispute deadline is passed then you're out of luck.
-Delivery confirmation. If it's a valuable item, use it.
-Custom work: 100% up front or 50% to start and 50% before shipping after sending pictures to the recipient.
These things all cost money/time.etc, but that's the price of doing business. Cut corners and you run the risk of getting cut.
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It's all about being knowledgeable and knowing your options. A huge number of the negative deals I see folks reporting on are partially their own fault.
-Paypal F&F not only is dodgy, but is actually against paypal rules for purchases. It may be worthwhile in some cases, (I've done it) but folks need to recognize that it's a risk and if you get shafted, you've got no recourse and only yourself to blame.
-Ebay/paypal/credit card purchases: Know and watch your "dispute" deadline. Don't wait until the dispute deadline is passed to file one. It's a hassle, but if you let someone jerk you around until the dispute deadline is passed then you're out of luck.
-Delivery confirmation. If it's a valuable item, use it.
-Custom work: 100% up front or 50% to start and 50% before shipping after sending pictures to the recipient.
These things all cost money/time.etc, but that's the price of doing business. Cut corners and you run the risk of getting cut.
All good points. I'll add a few more if you don't mind.
Take photos of the item BEFORE you send it. Date stamp to prove it was in good condition when you sent it.
Try to keep receipts, The Royal Mail want proof of what you paid for it before they reimburse for loss or damage. This is really hard for our kind of objets d tat, but worth a thought.
J
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Try to keep receipts, The Royal Mail want proof of what you paid for it before they reimburse for loss or damage. This is really hard for our kind of objets d tat, but worth a thought.
J
I'll top that with PostNL. A friend of mine recently had to prove he actually had put the items in the box that he sent insured. He had taken pics of the box and receipt as always, but that was a step we never thought about. He got nothing.
Why the hate for F&F? I always give people the option to pay as F&F or regular Paypal. 95 out of a 100 take F&F. Sure, most likely because when people want to pay with normal Paypal I insist on signed for and insured shipping, which for Dutch to EU mail doubles to triples the shipping costs, and sofar over the last few years I had 1 person agree to that. Everybody else took F&F and everyone got their goods. Sure, it is a risk, but isn't that always the case?
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I'll top that with PostNL. A friend of mine recently had to prove he actually had put the items in the box that he sent insured. He had taken pics of the box and receipt as always, but that was a step we never thought about. He got nothing.
Wow! Just wow! Kind of impressed at the thought process behind that. Wouldn't the weight of the parcel give them a clue?
Maybe next time he should wear a gopro and record the process of packing and posting?
J
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I'm not even sure the stunt PostNL pulled is entirely legal tbh.
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A while ago I ended up having to sell a GW Landraider for about £1.50 because I'd weighed the parcel and quoted the buyer based upon what the RM website said.
At the post office the p&p was twice the quote, when I queried it I was told "Oh everyone says that about the website".
A deal's a deal so he got his landraider for the asking price. Not his fault, don't see why he should pay extra.
Note. Within 6 months I was back into 40k and wishing I'd kept it.
That's another seller beware point.
ARE YOU SURE YOU WON'T WANT IT AT SOME LATER DATE?
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I have sold dozens of items through FB or LAF all over the world and never felt screwed.
The only one that ever failed was when an item I sold never arrived and I had neglected to offer insured shipping. I decided to split the loss and refunded half the amount. I had no way to be sure but liked trust and a decent compromise better than the alternative. :)
I always offer price and payment in advance with Paypal included plus shipping and packaging at cost and the option to use insured S&P (when lost you get a refund) or not (no refund).
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The only problem I had so far as a seller was here on LAF. Did a trade with a member of good standing (who stills posts regularly); he sent me a PM saying that he had received my miniatures and would send his soon (it was a model kit of a WW2 jet). Them silence...
After some insistence, he replied that the model was damaged and said he would send it anyway and offered 2 additional miniatures (from the SOTR range of minis). I accepted - in July 2015. No news until I sent a further PM in November. More excuses and a promise that they would be sent in a couple of weeks.
Sent him a new PM on December and this time he didn't even reply. The nice part is that he's happily posting in the forum, talking about his purchases; his plans for 2016; showing his painted miniatures etc.
So right now I only do trades with people with whom I've traded before.
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Here on LAF I had two trades which left me with a sour taste. Both involved painted miniatures which were inadequately packed. So the metal miniatures were severly chipped and the plastic miniatures were broken.
I've had this happen as well, twice, and it is a shame. In one case
The worst sale I've had I could have avoided entirely, but I walked right into it. A a chap jerk who was new to to forum sent me a PM me about some old Warzone minis. We agreed on a lower price and then he stuck me with the eBay fees after we agreed that he would pay them. Dick moves. He never did post to a single thread. I could have seen it coming.
My gut feeling is this is a great community. This thread reminds me how rare that may be.
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Personally, guys, at this point I'd say name and shame. Who knows? You might all be talking about the same guy.
(Or at least drop me a message so I know who to avoid. :p)
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.........With PayPal as gift, I may be to untrusting, it's always a red flag to me so I offer to put in a few extra monies to cover the cost.
Personally I think of you are selling something you should take into account the fees with your selling price.
"Payment by gift only" is an absolute no-go for me also, if I see it in the sale listings I don't bother to consider buying but am prepared to pay extra to cover PayPal fees if that is the request (and often ask for this myself on low value sales). It is when you get a sale/price agreed and only then the seller demands gift payment that angers me.
Demanding payment by gift means you are puling a scam:
Either on me as buyer (not sending the goods and leaving me no way of making a claim) or, insultingly expecting me to play the "didn't arrive" game.
Or on PayPal (using the commercial service they provide but evading paying the charge for it)
Another issue on forum sales seems to be the idea that sellers are not responsible for the safe delivery of the item. You see it a lot on eBay, but increasingly on fora too.
Sellers working on the "if you want insurance you have to buy it" principle which is wrong.
Insured or not, sell something that fails to arrive or arrives broken and it is the sellers responsibility not the buyer (hence why PayPal will always side with them).
In the EU it is the law, not a grey area or up for debate but actual legislation.
If the seller wants the security of insurance they have to pay for it (then usually pass the cost along in the sale price) but without it they are running the risk not the buyer, you cannot abrogate legal responsibility simply by stating "no insurance no comeback".
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Regarding LAF
I just received some minis from a trade....
Im just happy
Its a pleasure to trade with people here...(ok...they should have posted more than once :D.)
So many helpful people...
THANK YOU ALL
Florian
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Why the hate for F&F? I always give people the option to pay as F&F or regular Paypal. 95 out of a 100 take F&F. Sure, most likely because when people want to pay with normal Paypal I insist on signed for and insured shipping, which for Dutch to EU mail doubles to triples the shipping costs, and sofar over the last few years I had 1 person agree to that. Everybody else took F&F and everyone got their goods. Sure, it is a risk, but isn't that always the case?
It seems pretty obvious why the distrust of F&F.
-It gives the buyer no recourse if they are screwed by the seller.
-It's against the Terms of Use you sign when you sign up to use Paypal as a seller.
Many forums specifically prohibit sellers from asking for F&F because they know how it can be abused and also if such behavior is tolerated on their forums then it may put the Forum Owner's use of Paypal in jeopardy.
Having a Seller ask for P&P feels shady to me. If you tell people that if they use Paypal as intended you'll demand more expensive shipping that's also a bit manipulative, even if it is sort of a you-trust-me-I-trust-you kind of agreement.
Also, alot of folks may agree just because they don't want the seller to think they don't trust them.
The way I've used F&F is as buyer when purchasing from a seller I trust. I'll either go with F&F just because we're friends or as part of negotiation I'll offer to use F&F if the buyer will accept a lesser price.
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It does seem like i am not the only one to have had a negative experience.
There do seem to be lots of decent people who trade on this site.One of the reasons i list items from time to time.
The friends and family payment is not one that i like to do but have done so in the past.
Seems to be only a few bad apples spoil the barrel sort of situation.
Like most i like to send items signed for just for the extra peace of mind.I always pack miniatures well as i know how much i would not like getting packages with broken miniatures in them.It has happened to me before though which is never nice.
Things tend to get expensive when posting outside of the UK now and tracked post is always the best option for the seller.
I can say at times it is hard for me to list miniatures from my collection even though i know i wont get around to them.Bit like a Dragon with his gold ;).
Thanks for everyone's input on this topic.
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I think sellers can be targets for scams as well. And if you only sell one or two bits of your collection from time-to-time, it's not like you are going to make up that loss just selling more stuff.
I'll admit that this conversation has me seeing both sides of the "Friends & Family" argument though!
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Having a Seller ask for P&P feels shady to me. If you tell people that if they use Paypal as intended you'll demand more expensive shipping that's also a bit manipulative, even if it is sort of a you-trust-me-I-trust-you kind of agreement.
Also, alot of folks may agree just because they don't want the seller to think they don't trust them.
You are misinterpreting this. Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts. Folks agree because it is the cheaper option, not because someone likes them or not. Also, manipulative? Paypal demands that you send registerd and insured else you are automatically out of your money (and your goods) when the customer/fellow forummember complains that something has not arrived (be that true or false)
For the average gamer who wants to sell some old mini's >>
Regular Paypal = Higher shipping fees because Paypal demands it = people don't buy because of the costs (unless it is a more expensive purchase.....Anything over 30 Pounds for me)
F&F = much lower shipping fees, usually half or a third of the normal Paypal option = people buy.
People vote with their money, if they can get it elsewhere cheaper they will get it there (I'm purely talking about occasionally selling off some surplus things to pay for new projects. I'm not talking about professional sellers or shops. Now that would be fraudulent) Ys, it is a risk, but I'm quite sick of it being called a criminal in advance just because I offer P&R and normal Paypal options. And I take your comment about manipulative very personal, as this is most certainly not the case.
This is the way I have been funding my hobby for years now, selling what I no longer use and 80% of the people I sell to are in the UK. And I'm not. Charging normal Dutch shipping fees would mean I would not be able to sell any of my old stuff, much too niche for most Dutch.
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Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts.
Actually, demanding payment for goods sold by use of PayPals F&F functionality is an evasion of the fees that they charge for providing the service and a breach of the user conditions you sign when you apply.
Don't like the fees......Don't use the service, find another way of selling internationally to an open customer base..... MoneyGram or Wire Transfer?
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(Removed after cooling down)
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You are misinterpreting this. Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts. Folks agree because it is the cheaper option, not because someone likes them or not. Also, manipulative? Paypal demands that you send registerd and insured else you are automatically out of your money (and your goods) when the customer/fellow forummember complains that something has not arrived (be that true or false)
For the average gamer who wants to sell some old mini's >>
Regular Paypal = Higher shipping fees because Paypal demands it = people don't buy because of the costs (unless it is a more expensive purchase.....Anything over 30 Pounds for me)
F&F = much lower shipping fees, usually half or a third of the normal Paypal option = people buy.
People vote with their money, if they can get it elsewhere cheaper they will get it there (I'm purely talking about occasionally selling off some surplus things to pay for new projects. I'm not talking about professional sellers or shops. Now that would be fraudulent) Ys, it is a risk, but I'm quite sick of it being called a criminal in advance just because I offer P&R and normal Paypal options. And I take your comment about manipulative very personal, as this is most certainly not the case.
This is the way I have been funding my hobby for years now, selling what I no longer use and 80% of the people I sell to are in the UK. And I'm not. Charging normal Dutch shipping fees would mean I would not be able to sell any of my old stuff, much too niche for most Dutch.
I wasn't aware that Paypal requires "Registered and Insured". Is this the case throughout Europe? If both sides understood that a deal was not feasible with Paypal fees and shipping then I suppose F&F is one way to handle it. Forgoing expensive shipping in exchange for F&F seems like a way to work out an unworkable bad situation.
I just get a bad feeling when ads or sellers say "F&F only" or when they spring the F&F request on you after you've worked out a deal. Of course that is in the context of USA sellers where shipping with deliver confirmation is quite cheap.
I don't think anyone is calling you a criminal.
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Sorry about that, bit touchy today. Not my best week.
Paypal does not require it, but if something goes wrong, and you did not use signed for/registered (I tend to include insured as well as signed for doesn't mean a damn anymore these days) then the seller loses everything, Paypal automatically sides with the buyer.
Sellers that only accept F&F are rare, fortunately. If they are upfront about it I have less of a problem, if it is long time forum member. Anything under a couple of 100 posts and I just walk away.
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Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all?
I use priority mail here in the USA (99% small box) for my knowing it was delivered plus it can be, I think, cheaper if a small and heavy item and comes with automatic insurance but now I wonder how "wise" this practice is if a fraudulent buyer is going to be shielded from responsibility in the most extreme cases. Evidence be damned is disconcerting. For small items might this be simply unwise as a seller?
My mind is about enter the Boggle Zone!
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Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all?
Tracked postage in the UK is automatically insured up to a certain value (signed for postage, which costs £3.40) is insured for up to £50.
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Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all?
I don't know that Paypal automatically takes the buyers side.
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Yes for sure
In the past i sold a lot by ebay and everytime (100%) paypal takes the buyers side if shipping was not registered
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Indeed. I have done a few transactions here and on other fora (buying mostly and selling some) and it has been all good to very satisfactory. But i guess that when transactions increase the chance of encountering a dodgy or fraudelent traders also increases. Doing business savely is the only way to counter that. ;-)
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I don't think Ebay nor PayPal automatically take the buyer's side.
My worst EVER problem was as a seller on Ebay, I sold a saddle my wife no longer wanted. Really nice, very lightly used leather saddle. Took pictures from every angle very clearly showing the condition/color and so on. Saddle had the maker's stamped serial number or what ever that allowed you to go to their website and see it new so you could compare. In several of the pictures I had a tape measure extended so you could clearly see different widths/lengths measured out so me saying it was a 16 inch saddle or what ever didn't leave you guessing where I got that number from.
I had a clearly stated no return policy in the listing (too expensive to ship to eat the cost of sending it out just to have it come back, I would lose about $85 on my end and on a $600 saddle that is too much).
Sold it. Shipped it insured and very well packed. Buyer paid with pay pal.
Buyer gets the saddle and claims I had switched out one of the skirts AND that I had used brown leather on an all black saddle so that it did not match. Ridiculous claim. PayPal froze the funds until the dispute could be worked out. Buyer wanted ME to pay her to ship it back AND refund all her money.
I was able to show Ebay all the pictures, and that clearly it was a black saddle, no fricking brown skirt. In fact, the side she claimed I switched out was the skirt that had the manufacturer's branded stamp in the leather with the model number/serial number (which by the way was for a black saddle...).
Now, the leather straps that hold the stirrups to the saddle do rub the skirt when you ride, and the reality is there is no suck thing as 'black' leather, it is all dyed black, so there were some areas where the stirrup straps had rubbed that did look a little brownish (on BOTH sides) and those were VERY clear in the pictures (I even had text in the listing pointing out the wear, which was normal and light). But the whole saddle was original, nothing had been replaced on it.
After a few weeks of back and forth Ebay decided in my favor and PayPal unfroze the funds.
To this day I suspect the saddle just did not fit her horse right, or that for some other reason she had buyer's remorse. But it was a damned good saddle, and I was as clear as could be in the listing and pictures.
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I don't think Ebay nor PayPal automatically take the buyer's side.
My worst EVER problem was as a seller on Ebay, I sold a saddle my wife no longer wanted. Really nice, very lightly used leather saddle. Took pictures from every angle very clearly showing the condition/color and so on. Saddle had the maker's stamped serial number or what ever that allowed you to go to their website and see it new so you could compare....
...Sold it. Shipped it insured and very well packed. Buyer paid with pay pal....
...Buyer gets the saddle and claims I had switched out one of the skirts AND that I had used brown leather on an all black saddle so that it did not match. Ridiculous claim. PayPal froze the funds until the dispute could be worked out. Buyer wanted ME to pay her to ship it back AND refund all her money.
I was able to show Ebay all the pictures....
....After a few weeks of back and forth Ebay decided in my favor and PayPal unfroze the funds.
That sounds like a real hassle, but it also shows the value of Paypal/Ebay. If the transaction is documented correctly, it provides some assurance of arbitration.
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I've been following this thread with interest and I must say that I don't agree with the idea that if someone on a forum asks to be paid by Paypal gift or Friends and Family, that automatically means that they are scammers.
I wouldn't pay FF Paypal outside of forums, such as on Ebay but that is partly because I suspect that this would flout not only Paypals rules and regs, but possibly Ebays too. A lot of sellers on Ebay are also business sellers rather than people selling off a few models to make a few quid as is often the case on forums such as this.
I think everything that I have purchased on the LAF from the Bazaar has been via Paypal FF/Gift, and each time I agree to it, I see it akin to a Gentlemans agreement. I might get screwed over, but the seller gets all the money rather than losing some to Paypal. I have requested payment via the FF method for items I have sold on here myself, and I was unaware that some users see it in such a negative light.
All the sales and trades I have made on here, have been positive experiences. A few negative experiences on Ebay and Amazon market place, but those were non-wargaming items and that is a bigger sea, so to speak.
Ebay customer services were very helpful when I had a real problem over a handbag I got for my wife, and it was satisfactorily resolved.
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I don't think Ebay nor PayPal automatically take the buyer's side.
He did say that was the case if the parcel wasn't registered. If it isn't registered and the buyer says they didn't get it then Paypal gives them their money back. Case Closed
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I've been following this thread with interest and I must say that I don't agree with the idea that if someone on a forum asks to be paid by Paypal gift or Friends and Family, that automatically means that they are scammers.
No, me neither, but then neither do I think it's an appropriate service for trading. It's a gift service, that's it. If you wouldn't send cash in an envelope to the person, don't send F&F!
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I don't see why using the F&F option is against ebays rules? It is for Friends right? And I consider a lot of fellow gamers friends, I really do. So then why is it wrong?
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If you wouldn't send cash in an envelope to the person, don't send F&F!
That's a very good way to think of it. F&F is the equivalent of popping cash in an envelope with roughly the same benefits and risks.
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Well the idea of cash in an envelope, is a good analogy until one considers the reasons why cash shouldn't be sent through the post, it has nothing much to do with the seller and a lot more to do with the method of conveyance- it actually has to be physically handled by quite a few people, and only one of those has to be unscrupulous.
I think it does depend on the amount of money being asked for here, I would be rather more cautious about buying high value stuff, as opposed to just the odd sprue or few miniatures...
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Clearly it's not perfectly analogous and cash in the mail is a bit more likely to disappear, but the idea is roughly the same. You're sending someone money and there is virtually no recourse for getting that cash back if something bad should happen.
I just thought of the one bad-but-good occurrance that happened to me on Bartertown.
I was selling some as-is marines that I had picked up in a group lot. I had posted pictures of the marines but when they arrived apparently a few backpacks and arms were loose, the mold lines weren't as clean as the buyer would like and he claimed (incorrectly as my pictures proved) that parts were broken.
He send me this message
I am sorry but I can not leave a good review for you, many of the items were damaged and small bits were broken. Also many of the mould lines were removed very sloppily.
Two hours later he gives me the following message and negative feedback.
The following comments were made on your bad reference from ......: I bought some assault marines from him and many of the backpacks fell off and some of the arms did as well. Small bits on the marines were also damaged. Many different parts were filed off to much of which was not mentioned in the description. Really badly assembled, would not buy from.
When I saw all this for the first time 15 hours later I sent him this message:
Sorry about the delay in response I haven't been back to bartertown for a couple days. I would have appreciated it if you had waited for me to reply and attempted to reach an equitable solution. I posted a clear picture of the marines and you were welcome to ask additional questions about their condition. Sometimes things break in transit, and I don't recall any issues with mold lines, but then you didn't take pictures and give me a chance (2 hours is not enough) to address any issues that might have existed.
I take my feedback very seriously and will be contacting the bartertown administration about this matter and will contact you when I hear from them.
I contacted a bartertown admin, forwarded them all the pictures and the communications chain between myself and the buyer and they removed my negative feedback in about a day. After the feedback was removed I actually offered to refund the guy his purchase price and 1-way shipping but he decided to keep the figures.
All this to say, it's not great when something like this happens, but when documentation is in place and you use a place like BT with an involved moderation team everything can work out just fine.
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Yeah, these were mine. It still bugs me they never arrived. I hope some mailman or customs dude has fun with them :(
Probably. I occassionally keep an eye out on eBay for the minis but they are always really expensive. Just know I bear no ill will. :D
I've been looking at them and thinking they would fit nicely into my supers project. Time to check eBay again, lol
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Your experience sounds very much like mine Eilif.
I listed an item with lots of pictures of what was on offer and a good description only to have the buyer complain about it not being a complete set.He got in-touch with the admins,they said to make a partial refund which i would not do on the principle of the thing and i got removed from the group.It does seem like i got strong armed into having to give in to the demand or get taken off the group.To me that is not the way to do things.If the person was after the item cheaper they could have asked.I am sure if it was on Ebay i would have been well with-in my rights as a seller.
You live and learn as they say.
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I have to say, I've had nothing but good experiences trading/selling/buying here on the LAF. When I sell, I tend not to ask much for the items - for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that I'm not really out to make a profit. If it's clear to me that I'm not ever going to use a miniature, etc., it makes more sense for me for somebody else to get some good use out of it, rather than for it to sit in a drawer. The second reason is that I have, over the years, bought miniatures from LAF members for very little, and sometimes I like to offer miniatures for very little as a way of "paying back" for all the times I've got a good deal. As a result, I tend to offer the miniatures at a price that includes postage (at least within the U.S.A.) - it's quicker, easier, and seems more transparent, but really I do it because it's quicker and easier!
One member a couple of years ago introduced me to an idea that I loved, and have used a couple of times since as a "seller." Rather than ask for payment, he asked me to make a donation to whatever charity I supported for whatever amount I was comfortable with. I donated to the local Humane Society - one of my groups of choice for donations and volunteer work - and decided that I would do the same thing from time to time when I sold miniatures in the future. It's a way of spreading charity, in a way - for example, if I send something to a member in England, and suggest that they make a small donation somewhere, the miniatures I'm "selling" have now done something to help a group in need in another country. I think it's a great idea, and was very happy with the member for introducing me to the idea.
It also supports the fact that the LAF - perhaps more than many miniatures forums - is a generous and open-minded place. Of course there are exceptions - there always are - but I've been lucky enough never to run into them here. Long may it continue!
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I only recall having one bad experience with Ebay and one here on LAF.
Prior to a big move I downsized my collections and sold all the old unwanted stuff that my parents were getting fed up with storing. I sold a ton of stuff via Ebay, the only one that left a sour taste was to a guy in the US who kicked up a stink because he claimed the item was badly packaged and arrived broken. The item was a flat packed model kit which I wrapped in bubble wrap, double reinforced the outside with cardboard and then sent in a padded envelope. The item wasn't listed for much but the fuss this guy created you'd think he lost his house. I was glad when Ebay sided with me and let the matter drop. It left a sour taste though.
The other was a follow up to a successful transaction here on LAF. The LAFfer said he was downsizing so I bought some lovely painted stuff through the Bazaar which arrived without a problem then a second transaction failed to show up. I Pm'd him and waited, and waited, and waited then I got a pm saying that he would post it the next day. Another long wait ensued and the Paypal dispute time passed. I never did receive the figures but after a couple of months, and many, many Pms, he did refund me through Paypal. I'd much rather have had the figures though.
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Only bad eBay I've had is a dragon ogre shaggoth that I got for a bargain. I imagine this is the reason I never received it. Got my cash back through PayPal as the seller stopped all Comms. Don't list at a small price if you aren't willing to post it. (Maybe they did post it but the lack of communication was odd)
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High elf Tyrion. This one. (http://collector-info.com/Manufacturer/CIT/GAWWFB/GAWWFBHE/3527-99810210003-High-Elf-Hero-Tyrion-on-Malhandir.html) A tall, chunky, heavy metal mini, attached to a wide, flat metal base topper and wide flat base, at a perpendicular angle, by a single skinny horse's ankle. The seller thought it'd be a good idea to just cram it in a tiny jiffy bag. When it got to me, it wasn't quite so perpendicular. You can guess what happened when I tried to straighten that skinny horse ankle.
I opened a dispute against this dingbat, but it was an incomplete mini sold for a few pounds, so I just let it slide, and stamped caveat emptor on my forehead. That's the worst minis-related transaction I've had, thankfully. Still irritating, though!
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Here's a timely and interesting article:
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/apr/25/ebay-seller-beware-buyer-guarantee-exploited-scammers (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/apr/25/ebay-seller-beware-buyer-guarantee-exploited-scammers)
My sole negative experience on ebay was a 99p win - for a huge amount of miniatures - that resulted in an immediate refund and a claim that the items were "lost". A certain amount of illiteracy on the part of the seller had made the stuff very hard to find; I chanced upon it by sheer luck. Oh well - at least I got my 99p + postage back!
My (very limited) experience of buying through this forum has been excellent.
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I have had minor problems with transactions on the net, but luckily we where always able to deal with it in a gentlemanly fashion.
The only trouble I really got where with retailers.
One who made an incredible ammount of trouble over sending me the wrong item after allready being difficlut to actually being able to pay.
I also had a substantial pre order on some hordes stoff on mealstrom games, which I never received when the company went down.
There has also been some rather unpoilte sellers on the dutch ´Marktplaats`, but they just missed their sales.
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I've never had a problem, and I've sold quite a bit across various forums - usually in one of my purges! I've seen a few rooms roof to ceiling with unopened/assembled figures and determined it won't happen to me! So occasionally I have a big sweep of anything I'm not going to get to realistically any time soon.
I haven't bought as much second hand bar some stuff from Oldhammer but that all went smoothly.
My weird anecdote to add to the discussion is: When I sell on Facebook groups, I've had a lot...a lot!... of people message to say they've checked out my profile, and live near, so will come and collect if I give them my address. When I mention that I don't live where my Facebook details say (I have a mostly locked down account but it shows a couple of bits as standard), and that I can post them no problem, they ALWAYS disappear.
That's not mega creepy at all.
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My weird anecdote to add to the discussion is: When I sell on Facebook groups, I've had a lot...a lot!... of people message to say they've checked out my profile, and live near, so will come and collect if I give them my address. When I mention that I don't live where my Facebook details say (I have a mostly locked down account but it shows a couple of bits as standard), and that I can post them no problem, they ALWAYS disappear.
That's not mega creepy at all.
Never let them in!
I've made that mistake twice!
Was all British about it. Should have never opened the door.
One had a massive hygene problem and stayed for an hour criticising the painting and claiming they were not real GW(they were, no ebay recasters in those days). Bought 1 figure out of a box of about 100 assorted. Spent the rest of the day emptying every aerosol with a fragrance in it into the front room.
J
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When I was about 11 I was selling some Pokemon cards at a village car boot sale. A guy wanted to buy one but had run out of cash, and somewhere naively in conversation I had mentioned I lived in the village.
That evening, who knocks at the door but Mr 40 something dude looking for 11 year old Annie to trade pokemon cards. He had been knocking around the village on a load of doors trying to find where I lived with pretty much "the girl that was selling at the car boot" and eventually found me.
My parents actually let him in out of Englishness and he stayed for what felt like an eternity swapping pokemon cards whilst my eldest brother gave him a death stare.
The card he'd been so desperate for wasn't even rare, it was part of a starter deck you could buy anywhere.
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Got to admire his insanity, going round a village asking for a little girl. How'd he not get lynched?
Oh well, seems you mugged him for cards anyway. Serves him right.
J
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My worst was selling my all-Beastman Blood Bowl team, the Sheep Shaggers, via eBay. Painted, converted, team banners, cheerleaders and coaches. Got delivery confirmation, but the buyer claimed it never arrived, and it being an overseas US to UK transaction, eBay refunded his money. Probably 12 years ago now, and it still burns my ass. I hope to see them on a forum someday so I can know who to hate... ;)
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Interesting to hear about in-person transactions. I've sold quite a few things (not usually game related) in-person, usually via craiglist and while I usually meet in a neutral location, I've also often had folks come to the house or gone to other folk's homes and never had a problem.
On my end it might help that some folks find my neighborhood to be a bit scary so perhaps they don't want to stick around. For whatever reason I've had no problems with folks pleasantly coming, buying and leaving.
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I did collect some figures from a chap a couple of years ago from his house, but it was on a local wargaming trading group. His girlfriend was making him sell his hobby collection dirt cheap and converting the money into IKEA furniture, it felt like vulturing the belongings of a dead person!
Also, the street was coincidently swarming with police following a drug bust on a neighbour, and with a load of police watching, had to go knock on someone's door and exchange cash for a suspicious looking packet.
As I left she said "we have enough for that table now!" and I imagine now, every time he puts his coffee down on it, he sees the swirling faces of all his treasured armies and has a small cry.
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Annie, I think you just described the most negative sort of sale one could imagine... :'(
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<snip>
Jesus, it doesn't even matter which one I snip, these are all pure trauma.
I feel hurt just reading them.
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Only one dodgy issue, again e-bay. but got refunded for non-delivery, tried polite negotiation, got the list of excuses.
It got "in the post" maybe 8 times, before I politely suggest full refund and don't bother posting it again... then no further communication so opened the issue with ebay just before timeout.
Sad as I had really wanted the mini - and they actually had good feedback from other people, I suspect though she was selling her partners tat, so maybe he was not really happy about it.
Others have been close shaves, if I have any doubt I simply stop as its simply not worth the stress.
but boy am I glad my better half has no need to convert my mountain of madness into Ikea furniture...
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I have to say this thread has opened my eyes, until recently any second hand stuff I bought off ebay, it was only on LAF that I started buying/selling.
I've had three bad buys, one guy on ebay ticked the wrong box on the label so a fee was required to pick it up at the postie...which cost more than the mini, eventually forgot about it.
The second was from Northstar where the minis came miscast(it was around the Christmas rush so taking them back would have been unfeasible) I cleaned them up anyway although it has soured me on Northstar(first time buyer).
On LAF the closest i've gotten was a buyer taking ages to actually pay for the things as he had no paypal set up and had to use a library computer(essentially not prepared in advance) LAF moderator sorted it out though and we were both happy.
Until I started selling I had no idea paypal took a cut/what f&f was...and until this thread had no idea it was so taboo.
I do it as like others i'm only trying to get rid of the things and as I get so many nice deals myself i'm inclined to sell them cheap, if I wanted profit I could easily get it on ebay, and as i'm generally selling single/small batches paypal charging would make things not worthwhile, I guess in future if people do have a problem with it i'll just charge slightly more to offset it.
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Just read this post (http://sepulchreofheroes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/social-media-trading-i-got-ripped-off.html) on Sepulchre of Heroes blog.
It describes the action he took (and he didn't hang around once it looked like it had gone south), but he's US based, so likely different laws over here.
I wasn't aware of his 2nd point on avoiding ways of being cheated
2- For trades you can still back it up with PAYPAL (wish I had now). Establish an agreed upon amount for the value of the models in the trade. So if it is $100, you transfer $100 to them and they do the same to you. SELECT PAYMENT FOR GOODS AND SERVICES. There may be a small charge for both of you, but consider this an insurance fee. Now if the goods never arrive or they gave you something other than you traded for, you can still file with PAYPAL and get your money back.
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Simultaneous buying as trade insurance. That's quite clever.
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Simultaneous buying as trade insurance. That's quite clever.
I tried it awhile ago on Bartertown. Everyone refused to do it because "I was low rating and so I should trust them since they're the rules".
I still can't believe that's a rule on Bartertown, but it is.
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Of the three purchases I've done using paypal f&f, the first time went fine (this was also on LAF), the second didn't arrive, and the third was so badly packed the minis were damaged.
Now if f&f is asked, I will offer to pay the extra 3.4% + 20p to cover the paypal charges. If the seller doesn't accept this, then it is not about the money, but instead it's the avoidance of the seller's accountability, and I'll step away.
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I tried it awhile ago on Bartertown. Everyone refused to do it because "I was low rating and so I should trust them since they're the rules".
I still can't believe that's a rule on Bartertown, but it is.
Low feedback ships first.
It's a rule because it works. Folks with higher ratings have lots of successful trades, typically no negative ratings (BT has an extensive feedback system), and a reputation to protect. Thus, the newbie ships first because they haven't proven themselves yet.
On BT I'm usually fine with simultaneous trades with someone who has a 10+ trades even though I have over 70. However if someone with just a couple trades wants to do a deal, they are shipping first. I'm not likely to eat paypal fees on a deal with a new user when a system is already in place to keep folks honest.