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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Kommando_J on May 05, 2016, 12:39:44 AM
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After my last thread lamenting frostgrave minis I was on the lookout for a new project.
Having received samples from them,I thought about otherworld miniatures...but tbh despite their excellent quality the prices shocked me somewhat.
One one hand I would argue that the quality/detail warrants the prices and compared to GW prices that I was used to they are downright bargain basement (although I remember the days of £6.00 multiple metal miniature blisters).
But on the other I couldn't help but feel the prices where a bit high and the thing that really shocked me was the bizarre post system where postage went up as the prices went up, even if overall the package weight was small being made up of expensive single minis.
...But getting to the question or questions:
How much do you think is reasonable for a metal miniature?
How much is reasonable for postage?
(For both questions stores as well as ebay)
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I rarely spend more than £2.50 on a human sized metal miniature. Unless it's something special or big etc. I don't like paying much more than that. Most of the time I don't have to what with GB, Curteys, Foundry and Perry being my usual suppliers.
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It's not an easy one to answer if I really like a miniature or need it for a project and I can't find any alternative I might be prepared to break the budget at other times I'll proxy or convert to save cash. I can't really quantify it I'll look at a model or miniature and in my head the price will seem either acceptable or not.
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It depends on several things. Firstly, my budget, which is always a problem :-( and secondly the miniature. Once i payed something like 15 euro (including postage) for a miniature that i had wanted for a long time. But these are rare occasions. Around 2,50 euros seems a fair price to me for a new man-sized miniature.
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Just to give a bit of a commercial perspective here...
Take the Half-orc barbarian from our last Kickstarter. She has a £4 retail price, which is well over the £2.50 most here seem to think is reasonable. But think about the numbers. Retailers get around 45% discount, so on a £4 mini, we'll receive £2.20. The cost of the miniature to us is 70p, and the blisterpack, foam and card cost 43p. So that £4 price nets us £1.07 profit. And that doesn't include the costs of shipping to the retailer.
So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...
You can cut costs by setting up in-house casting, but you need to be shifting a lot of product for that to be cost-effective. Also, mulitipack minis help a bit, as you only need to pay the blister/foam/card costs once. But even there, if I did a blister with 3 of those Half-orcs for £7.50, after costs, I'd receive £1.63 profit, so 54p per mini sold.
It's hardly surprising so many mini ranges disappear shortly after launch.
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Its whatever you are willing to pay much like other things if you or anyone sets a bidget value in your mind thats a personal thing. I find exactly the same thing with clothes and designer labels, I can pick up a pait of plimsoles for less than £15 yet my kids buy converse for £70 plus! 😃
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So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...
QFT
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This is one of those hard topics to get into.
Lovejoy does a good job of explaining the costs.He is also the sculptor for his range which saves him the cost of getting pieces done.So for others to get a miniature into production you are looking at getting sculpts done and also master and production moulds too.So before you can start to make any money you have those costs to make back.I think that is one reason small start-up businesses fail due to lack of sale to move the range/line onwards.
There is also the difference with Historical,Sci-Fi and Fantasy pricing.But like Karl and others have mentioned you get what you pay for as with anything else.
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i honestly don't think that the customer should care much about the production-distribution costs of miniatures. I am in the same boots regarding scenery sculpting-producing, so i understand the struggle to keep the prices low, yet i think that the customer should only think if he wants to pay a price for a miniature.
In my opinion the parameters should be:
- Is this something out of the mainstream? If you're willing to have miniatures with unique looks, and a characterized style, you have to pay more.
- Is this something specific i've been looking for? Afterall, if you really want a specific miniature, and someone decided to make a limited run of those for you and a few other interested in it, it's no surprise it's gonna be more expensive.
- Am i after some superior quality? Will i spend countless hours painting those? Well, this is tricky since most of us tend to ...erm... increase their lead mountain mostly. But seriously, if you are planning to invest 10 hours into painting one miniature is the 10£ price really so important? On the other hand, if you're after miniatures for gaming, sometimes the superior quality isn't worth it.
Personally, i think that a high-quality miniature like Infinity or Red Box Game or Tales of War is well worth the 8-10£ price tag, BUT you must need this kind of product! It all depends on the customer needs, and what he's after.
For what concerns me, it's very important to have unique miniatures (so non-gw-and-such) but i'm not after something in particular; i really am after superior quality since i spend a lot of time on one miniature, but i know i won't paint all of those i buy, so i tend to limit myself.
Result: I don't go above 4-5£ per high quality miniature, and that results in buying used miniatures that had RRP around 10£ (such as RGB).
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Hasslefree did a breakdown of the costs of setting up for a limited resin run - link (http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php?topic=14200.0). It's over five years old now, so I imagine things have got even more expensive.
On a personal note, it does depend on the figure and if I have a use for it. I've just bought some Hasslefree figures, which came in at around £5 each, and that is getting to the top of what I consider reasonable.
However, I've started collecting some of the Imperial Assault figures, and those end up around the £10 mark for a single plastic figure. This is partly because they come with cards and other stuff, but I still take a long pause before deciding if I want it or not.
But yeah, if it's a figure that I really want, then I'll generally buy it. However, I'm finding that more and more often the prices of things are way above my impulse buy limit, so they stay on the shelf/website.
One example of that is that £70 seems to be the average Kickstarter pledge these days. This also seems to be about the average "figures with a boardgame attached" price, and it's one that is well above my comfort level. Sure, if you average out the cost of the figures it's actually pretty cheap, but the fact you have to buy the whole thing has put me off backing/buying quite a few things.
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Hmm, I guess there's no real blanket answer here - even if we limit ourselves to discussing human-sized 28mm scale figs... Just too many variables.
That said, some of my thoughts on the matter:
1) Material. If metal or resin, the miniatures are clearly not set up to be sold in the same volumes as plastic figures on a sprue. I would therefore expect to buy plastic figures significantly cheaper on a per-unit-basis than their metal equivalents. Yes, I know the moulds are expensive, etc, but there clearly has also been a volume-sales calculation made and as a customer I really do resent being charged high or nearly-metal prices as a result. GW are the real culprit here, I admit, but some other plastic models (Malifaux for another example) are at it too.
2) Type of model vs expected number required. I am much more likely to need lots of Zombies/Redshirts/grunts compared to champions/heroes/leaders, so pricing them all the same (i.e., at hero-level single-figure prices) is a major disincentive for me to consider a model range for more than a couple of figures. This is a relevant example for me actually, as I wanted some decent-looking Fantasy Zombies for a big WHFB unit - but I refuse to pay £4+ per figure for a 3pt model that I will need some 60 of (and that's just one unit...)! Mantic plastics were the choice in the end (cheap, and still look much better than those God-awful GW plastics), although I did manage to get about 12-15 metal zombie models for good prices before I gave up on completing the unit.
3) Game requirements. For heroes in a dungeon crawler or an RPG, I don't mind spending a bit more. This ties into (2) above, but more so because the characters are avatars of the players, and are therefore important to get "right" as far as I'm concerned. Conversely, dungeon beasties or encounter monsters may well just be one-use wonders, and I'm even happy to use card standees if their lives are short enough to not merit buying models for! Compared to an army-style game, where even though the bulk troops are many and generic, they are still on the table longer and more often.
4) Model complexity. I like models that are multipart because they are usually a bit more dynamic and tend to have better mouldlines. I draw the line at 4/5 parts though - any more and it's too fiddly to bother with unless it's some super-special-awesome character that you only need one of (and, better mouldines are outweighed at this point by too many mouldlines!). I understand that more parts = more cost (generally, although one loose arm on one model, or a separate head/backpack are not usually a noticeable difference), so adjust my expectations accordingly. I again object to paying for 1-peice models what's charged for 5-part models if the price for the 5-peice models is steep.
5) Company size. Crude, and I feel a bit awkward admitting this, but there it is. For a "bigger" company that shifts a lot of product, I feel that prices should be cheaper than those charged by one-two person companies. In other words, I accept that boutique miniatures are low overall earners for their makers and I don't mind paying a little more if it keeps them afloat (and making more models). I do expect a bit more in terms of service though (for example, asking if I can have 60 specific Zombies rather than a random mix), because that higher price also represents a more personal involvement and the ability to accommodate reasonable requests (IMO). Conversely, I don't expect a personal approach with bigger companies, and they shift enough to keep prices lower overall (which is the tradeoff for me). It's funny how this always seems to be in reverse though - big companies often charge as much or more than the boutique companies, even if the service is less individual.
6) Quality of the model/sculpt. Very subjective, I know. For me this is about proportion, pose, attention to detail, and the casting. This is not about number of skulls/straps/rivets/spikes/armour panels, nor about the model coming in one part or four. It is also not about heroic poses with "rage fist", "foot on rock", or "Prince George stance", or having a scenic base. If the model is good enough, I will buy it just to have - if the model is exceptional, it may even spawn a whole new project!
7) Project price. This ties into (3) a bit as well, but for me this is what I expect to spend overall on a given army/force/warband/gang/project. For something like Necromunda, I would expect a gang to be a dozen troopers (call it fifteen to allow for some variety, but this excludes hired guns), and a price of around £40. This price is somewhat set by what I paid for gangs of this size originally (adjusted upwards a bit for time elapsed), and recognizes that one-piece mass-produced grunts are more plentiful (and cheaper) than multipart heavies for example. It also reflects that with one or two plastic kits, I can usually kitbash a gang of this size without much difficulty. Therefore, selling models for a game of this type/size at much more than about £4 each is going to be a tough sell to me (unless the models are amazing, and even then...).
For something like Malifaux, where all the characters are unique and distinctive, I might have a similar budget for only 7-10 figures. For a WHFB regiment that I might need a few of, I'd expect to get one good-sized regiment for that £40 (which averages around 25-40 models generally). And so on. Basically, as long as the overall cost for the project is "on budget", I don't mind too much if one of the models costs three times more than another (although coming in "under budget" is always pleasing!).
I do pause at £70 boxed sets where you don't really get a proper force though (regardless of the number of miniatures they contain) - they are often not complete games or even great starters either, or they feature two factions that I might not be interested in. This means that in addition to the initial £70, I will likely need to spend considerably more in order to properly play and experience the game. Mostly, these sorts of sets seem to have been influenced by the GW method of big boxed starters, and much like the game mechanic of rolling a dozen D6 dice 3-4 times to get one result, I think it's high time some thought and market research went into these things - there are much better solutions in my opinion, which also allow costs to be kept sensible for new players and are still profitable for the manufacturers, all without introducing a torrent of SKU product codes for stores to deal with either.
Games like Space Hulk and Heroquest show very clearly that the boxed game needs to be complete, satisfying, evocative, and not too expensive. They also need to have enough complexity and/or scenarios and/or variety to keep the game interesting for replays. For many these are also the "true" gateway games that got them interested in TTG all those years ago, which proves that they got the formula for success right. I note that despite the very reasonable miniature quality and numbers, these are also primarily board games.
Recent GW games are not really aimed at new players, nor even at those starting a new faction - Calth and Overkill are merely model-selling vehicles, and not remotely "proper" games that you'd expect to buy in a highstreet store and play with friends or family. The amount of model prep and assembly required is also simply not for beginners, and the price is easily steep enough to put new people off from having a go in case they bugger it all up. The games do not offer enough engagement for long-term enjoyment either.
One thing is clear though; the big game sets out now are all very keen to tell you how many models they contain so that people can work out that each figure costs £2.50 (or whatever) and is therefore "great value" when compared to buying just the figures you want/need...
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I remember being appalled when citadel raised its price per figure to 40p (Stirling) and then wasted some of that money on stupid blister packs!
On the whole I don't mind paying for quality and service. I'm aware of the need of small businesses and artists to make a living and recognise the amount of talent and effort needed to make my toys. I'm also very aware of the costs of volume and recognise that much smaller volumes are more expensive per unit.
I do object to a number of pricing practices from many companies.though. Here are a few.
1) packaging. You're charging me for cardboard plastic art work graphic design etc that I'm just going to discard
2) multiples. You decide to sell things in multiples rather than ones. I very very often don't want the same numbers you think I do. You argue multiples makes it cheaper because you don't have to package singles... I refer you to the cause of the problem in item 1
3) lack of imagination. Too many very talented people copying what others do at equal or higher prices! you want me to spend £5 on a figure? Then do something worth it, not just an oversized, charicatured knock off of what everyone else is doing.
4) fluff. I'm interested in figures. I have an imagination. I don't want to be paying more for figures because you decided you had to put a card, pamphlet, background book or British library in the blister pack. I certainly don't want several copies because I wanted three figures.
5) don't make me pay for how you run your business. I want to buy figures. I have no interest in your painting competition, the several hundred stores you keep open and the thousands of "helpful" staff. You're making me pay for those things in your product pricing and I'm not interested in them.
6) god complex. Ok, you can sculpt, you're good at it, you deserve to make a living. That doesn't mean your first four sculpts deserve a £100,000 Kickstarter and the opportunity for you holiday in the Bahamas twice a year.
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Just to give a bit of a commercial perspective here...
Take the Half-orc barbarian from our last Kickstarter. She has a £4 retail price, which is well over the £2.50 most here seem to think is reasonable. But think about the numbers. Retailers get around 45% discount, so on a £4 mini, we'll receive £2.20. The cost of the miniature to us is 70p, and the blisterpack, foam and card cost 43p. So that £4 price nets us £1.07 profit. And that doesn't include the costs of shipping to the retailer.
So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...
You can cut costs by setting up in-house casting, but you need to be shifting a lot of product for that to be cost-effective. Also, mulitipack minis help a bit, as you only need to pay the blister/foam/card costs once. But even there, if I did a blister with 3 of those Half-orcs for £7.50, after costs, I'd receive £1.63 profit, so 54p per mini sold.
It's hardly surprising so many mini ranges disappear shortly after launch.
What you're discussing here is a business model that screams for you to take out the middleman (retailer) and set up order delivery in house.
You choose the market access. You choose the packaging. If that makes your customers think the product is too expensive, then change them.
Yes as customers we will always want more for less, just as a commercial entity will want greater return. It's a balancing act.
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What you're discussing here is a business model that screams for you to take out the middleman (retailer) and set up order delivery in house.
You choose the market access. You choose the packaging. If that makes your customers think the product is too expensive, then change them.
Yes as customers we will always want more for less, just as a commercial entity will want greater return. It's a balancing act.
That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows. At Salute this year, we ran out of 5 popular models. We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.
So if you cut out stores, and really have to attend 20+ trade shows a year instead. Believe me, that's a long way from free.
The fact is, without retail stores and shows, a miniatures range has very little exposure to the customer base. Getting 100% of the sale price doesn't help if you aren't getting any sales...
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That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows. At Salute this year, we ran out of 5 popular models. We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.
So if you cut out stores, and really have to attend 20+ trade shows a year instead. Believe me, that's a long way from free.
The fact is, without retail stores and shows, a miniatures range has very little exposure to the customer base. Getting 100% of the sale price doesn't help if you aren't getting any sales...
I recognise it's a trade off. I am stunned if in this day and age a statistically significant portion of your customer base WONT buy on line. I don't know anyone with that view. In fact I know almost no one that buys from a bricks and mortar store.
Don't read too much into those that want to buy at a show, that can often be impulse buys. They wouldn't walk into a shop for it either the following week.
Your issue at that show was you didn't have enough stock. It's hard to predict and balance.
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That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows. At Salute this year, we ran out of 5 popular models. We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.
So if you cut out stores, and really have to attend 20+ trade shows a year instead. Believe me, that's a long way from free.
The fact is, without retail stores and shows, a miniatures range has very little exposure to the customer base. Getting 100% of the sale price doesn't help if you aren't getting any sales...
Wow!
Maybe it's because I'm in Australia or something but mail order is how i get everything. Buying something in a store is a positive luxury.
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We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.
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When I look at a number of miniatures webstores, and I look through sad tales of months of no-reply following orders even on this forum, I can't say I necessarily think that's all that strange. :?
Personally, I won't order from webstores that:
- Look very dated (due to payment security reasons).
- That won't show proper-sized photos of their miniatures (decent-sized, both painted and unpainted, and a shot of components if relevant). I mean, if you can't be bothered to show me what you have for sale, why should I care enough to buy from you?
- That won't explain up-front what shipping charges to expect without getting to the last stage of placing an order first. This is just time-wasting, pure and simple.
I'm also put off by very limited ranges or no signs of recent (as in, the last year or so) activity, and also by webstores that make it impossible to navigate or add purchases easily (for example sites which jump you back to the front page after every item you add to the basket are infuriating to use).
So yeah, people not wanting to buy miniatures online? Not that surprising to me when I consider what I've seen over the years.
That said, I do in fact order nearly all my miniatures online.
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That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows.
So this begs the question; what portion of our hobby is carried by shows in the UK and Europe?
I think of the hobby as being international, but I'm happy to accept that my perspective may be skewed by the minority of big players that I don't buy from. GW, Warlord, Privateer, Reaper.
I can't help but feel that prices have sky-rocketed recently. £7 and $10 per figure, even for multi-pack purchases are non-starters for me. But if the bulk of business for the majority of producers is conducted at shows, then Canada and the US may not be viable or attractive markets especially given the arcane requirement to work via distributors instead of directly with retailers.
Barring product from Pulp Miniatures and RAFM, every mini I own comes from either the UK or the US and was bought online. Exposure to those minis was via forums like this one. Mostly this one.
My last purchases were for conversion bits from Victoria miniatures in Australia and locally produced miniatures from Interloper. It would be nice to think the rising price of minis will see more interesting product produced in North America or other markets!
TLDR:
Grumpy Peabody does think prices are getting too high but still wants his minis.
He suspects a large portion of our hobby survives via a UK / European network of highly evolved farmer's markets. No disrespect intended as that format implies quality and craftsmanship.
North America is a difficult market to penetrate especially given the apparently silly requirement to work through distributors.
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I suppose one way to look at it, and I may be either a. repeating something already said or b. talking nonsense here, is to consider the cost of the miniature versus the amount of entertainment one gets from it, as it were.
I mean, I'm a slow painter, but I enjoy painting, so if it takes me say 2 hours total to paint up a miniature costing £4, then for that £4 I've had 2 hours of enjoyment from painting it, then add however long I use it for in games etc. etc., it actually works out as pretty reasonable if compared with say, going to see a film which lasts 2 hours an costs me £8 for a ticket.
Ok that's a bit of a false argument as possibly can't compare the one with the other, and the point is that regardless of long-term use the cost has to be forked out in one go so it may be quite expensive, but in general we probably get quite a lot of return on the money spent up front. As has already been said, it's entirely dependent on what you're happy to spend. (Another advantage of being a slow painter, I don't need to buy many figures to last me quite some time!)
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Like others, my maximum range depends on the miniature. I've been paying $5-6 a figure to snag up some old 2nd edition Warhammer figures...because they're a bit more rare and I obviously can't buy them at retail. Thus, I'm willing to fork over a bit more.
I will pay more for metal. I will avoid resin at all costs for anything other than small terrain bits. For large boxes/units I'm fine with multipart plastics, particularly for the cost.
While I prefer, when possible, to buy products as new...I will buy them wherever I can find them cheapest. I won't buy re-casts or knock-offs etc., but like many people I have a small budget. I like supporting companies as well as I can, but if a product is 30% cheaper and has free shipping at a retailer...I'll go there instead of the manufacturer.
The OP brings up Otherworld Miniatures. They're a good example. I've built quite the dungeoneering collection and part of that included some Otherworld Miniatures. They are so brilliantly sculpted that I'd have done the entire project in Otherworld Miniatures if I were made of gold or peed silver.
I struggled with my Otherworld purchase. It was approximately $95 USD. I picked it up at a show (I had decided to give myself $100 to freely spend and oddly there wasn't much else I was interested in). I thought to myself, $95 for 10 miniatures? Yikes. When I bought the henchmen and hireling box, I was blown away when I opened it. Nice cover art around a zippered and printed soft-foam carrying case with red liner, ten individually packaged miniatures in baggies with plastic slotta bases and sculpted pewter bases provided --- these even included a sheet of stick-on felt liners to apply to the bottom of the bases!. Overall it was a phenomenal package. Beautifully done, perfect miniatures etc. However I couldn't help but think I'd have rather paid $80 and ditched the case, the spare bases, the felt pads, etc.
It just depends on the figure and the perceived value.
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Being involved in wargames as a business is a lifestyle choice for the vast majority rather than a money making opportunity
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I've never recovered from Minifigs going up from 8p to 9p, the same price as Hinchliffe.
(Hinchliffe obviously went up to 10p shortly after). That's where the rot set in... ;)
I've gone over almost entirely to plastic now, mainly because (for the most part) the figures are better. So I typically pay around 50p a figure.
For the right metal figure - one I REALLY REALLY wanted - I guess I'd pay up to a fiver. Typically, a couple of quid would be my max though.
Perry packs of six metal figures for seven quid seem remarkably good value at just over a pound a figure. But then, in fairness, they don't have sculptors to pay - although no doubt their own time is worth money.
But I do think that if so many manufacturers, particularly of historical figures, can still manage to produce a 28mm metal figure for somewhere between a pound or two (or even three), then there's not really much excuse for pricing individual figures at £6, £8 or £10+
I note it is almost exclusively fantasy and sci-fi miniatures that command these sorts of prices.
Partly that's because people raised from childhood in the Games Workshop tradition just assume silly prices are normal (they're not).
Partly it's an exercise in premium pricing based on snobbery in which purchasers are complicit ('I must be getting something really good because it's so expensive')
And partly it's because, I presume, many fantasy and sci-fi figures are so niche (despite the massive popularity of fantasy and sci-fi genres) that they don't sell very many of them. So the cost per unit is disproportionately high.
But if people are prepared to pay those prices, then clearly there's a market. Rather like antiques, something is worth whatever someone is happy enough (or foolish enough) to pay for it. One man's ludicrous rip-off is another man's great value for money... Slightly depends how well-off you are too I suspect.
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But I do think that if so many manufacturers, particularly of historical figures, can still manage to produce a 28mm metal figure for somewhere between a pound or two (or even three), then there's not really much excuse for pricing individual figures at £6, £8 or £10+
I note it is almost exclusively fantasy and sci-fi miniatures that command these sorts of prices.
Partly that's because people raised from childhood in the Games Workshop tradition just assume silly prices are normal (they're not).
Partly it's an exercise in premium pricing based on snobbery in which purchasers are complicit ('I must be getting something really good because it's so expensive')
And partly it's because, I presume, many fantasy and sci-fi figures are so niche (despite the massive popularity of fantasy and sci-fi genres) that they don't sell very many of them. So the cost per unit is disproportionately high.
I don't really agree with that to be honest...
5 reasons why (IMHO) historicals are generally cheaper:
1. There are a lot of basic troops that can be converted quickly from dollies, saving sculpting time.
2. They are often sold in large numbers, rather than as individual minis, thus benefiting from economies of scale.
3. A lot of historical manufacturers do it as a hobby; they often operate around break-even, funding themselves with a day job or a pension.
4. Historicals tend to be lighter and simpler, often around half the metal, of a sci/fant model, thus cheaper to mould and cast.
5. Historicals are typically just not as well sculpted as decent sci/fant stuff. There are of course exceptions, but that's the general rule. Most of the freelance sculptors I know charge around double for sci/fant stuff than they do for historical sculpting, because higher standards are expected.
It's largely down to the character/skirmish nature of most sci/fant stuff, versus the mass troop block style of most historicals.
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''The OP brings up Otherworld Miniatures. They're a good example. I've built quite the dungeoneering collection and part of that included some Otherworld Miniatures. They are so brilliantly sculpted that I'd have done the entire project in Otherworld Miniatures if I were made of gold or peed silver.''
Indeed, despite the quality the prices are a barrier or i'd be rolling in them as they fit in very well with old-school citadel stuff.
The character models are just on the cusp at £5.00...it's the henchmen in packs of three for £11 that made me start to balk, it'd be GW levels to put together even a small warband for Frostgrave.
up to £9.99 - £4.50
£10.00 - £24.99 - £6.00
£25.00 - £49.99 - £7.50
£50.00 - £100.00 - £10.00
over £100.00 - £12.50
Those are the postage costs which are fixed for everywhere...great for Aussies prohibitive to me, especially as they are doing the opposite of other companies that make postage cheaper, i'd argue though that while otherworlds packaging is excessive I d like getting leaflets in box sets.
I'd agree with other people in that i'll pay more for a rare/sought after mini.
In regards to the online debate i'd say that the majority of miniature buyers are older men, these days GW isn't the effective gate way drug it used to be, videogames are cheaper.
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I've never recovered from Minifigs going up from 8p to 9p, the same price as Hinchliffe.
(Hinchliffe obviously went up to 10p shortly after). That's where the rot set in... ;)
I recall similar when H&R put their German motorbike and sidecar up to 3p each... they were tuppence ha'penny! >:(
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What to pay. Of course it depends...
-Usually I pay 1-3 bucks for metal miniatures of the troop variety as I buy alot of used figs. The majority of my figs are bought in lots for a buck or two a piece.
-For Skirmish game figs I'll shoot for the same or up to 4-5 bucks a fig such as the RAFM Airship Pirates kickstarter or my Necromunda collection
-For a particularly interesting project, I'll spend 6-7 bucks such as for the Goodbeast figs from Otherworld minis.
-On occasion I've paid up to $10 for a particular man-sized character or unique figure that I really want, but this is extremely rare.
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I think the real question is about the cost of ownership of a miniature and how that cost is divided up. Lets say a figure costs £4, but painting it takes a minimum of an hour. Well even at the living wage that means painting it costs £7.20. Add to that the cost of paint, brushes and basing and you'll be at £8. Then think about how much to costs to store and transport that figure. So the "metal" or "plastic" cost of a figure is less than a third of the total BUT for about £12 you now own a well painted model that is yours for a lifetime.
The next question really is about whether we want a vibrant hobby, which pays people appropriately for their valuable time and considerable skill to make phenomenally beautiful models for us to collect, paint and wargame with or not. The talented modellers we need in this hobby aren't going to do this for free, they have got families and bills to pay too. Hence, it is in our interests for them to receive reasonable recompense for their considerable talent. If we look at the modelling process and the production process, the price of raw materials and transport etc. then I think that even at £4 per figure then that means that most people in our hobby are not on exorbitant salaries. That said I consider that some more commercial companies do push it too far - but I haven't ever knowingly bought a model from the evil empire for that exact reason.
Next point is what you actually get for £4 these days....not even a pint of beer in London....and you'll need a few of those to add up to a night out. Actually for £4 you probably can't even buy a burger and chips. Even a sandwich meal deal is £3 minimum while a mass produces LEGO mini-figure will probably set you back £2.50. All of an sudden £4 for a bespoke piece of art looks good value.
Last point is that if £4 is too rich in 28mm then in 15mm the same quality of figure is about 75p and you can get some lovely stuff in 15mm these days. Half the size, a quarter the price and a tenth the storage problem.
Just my thoughts.
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Being the Moldy Oldie that I am I do remember when fantasy foot figures went from 25 cents to 50 cents per figure bought singly. Double that for horse and rider. :o
I work with a advantage/disadvantage in that most of my 25mm armies are 90+% complete but filling the gaps requires Classicminiatures.net or EvilBay - though the Iron Wind Metals Chaos Wars reboot KS (2 so far) is helping. :-*
Also all my new projects have been in 15mm, 3mm, or the quirky project in 6mm which makes cost more palatable to my 19th Century "sense of cost." :)
It also helps that when I started collecting metal miniatures in the 1970s I made much less as a lower grade enlisted person than I make as a professional now by at least 5 times (almost 6) so costs are seen as less stressful in relative terms given that factor. lol
Still...
I prefer my 25mm figures to stay below $5 per figure when they (Der Kriegspieler, 1970s Ral Partha, certain other selected lines) are available - even trying to keep the cost lower.
Other than "gap fill" and the recent run on KS - oh, and the Reaper Mouslings too - I pretty much buy from Khurasan, Rebel Minis, and Splintered light and sometimes O. O. 3mm stuff other than aerial. I do try and buy "something" at LGSs when I play games there but 90% of my buying is online from proven companies as mentioned earlier. Rarely do I find something worthwhile to buy at a local or regional convention.
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Have you seen the costs of casting metal recently? It's not cheap! especially when you consider that if you want to avoid giving your customer lead poisoning you really need to get it from a good (pricey) supplier, not bulk buy it off ebay from china. Likewise with good resin and mould making material.
The stuff needed to produce metal/resin miniatures is expensive. unlike plastic you can't just have one mould and reuse it a thousand times, its a continuous ongoing cost. When you weigh up the cost of actually producing a figure for sale, not just the sculpting but the casting,material,labour ect, against the possibly small demand for the product, it's pretty easy to see why small suppliers might charge a bit more.
I think it may be asking a bit too much to have small companies producing high quality figures and then also ask them to sell them for almost no profit.
(of course we could melt down all those old 50p miniatures you all miss and hold dear in your collections.then you could get new figures cheaper lol :)
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I do object to a number of pricing practices from many companies.though. Here are a few.
1) packaging. You're charging me for cardboard plastic art work graphic design etc that I'm just going to discard
2) multiples. You decide to sell things in multiples rather than ones. I very very often don't want the same numbers you think I do. You argue multiples makes it cheaper because you don't have to package singles... I refer you to the cause of the problem in item 1
5) don't make me pay for how you run your business. I want to buy figures. I have no interest in your painting competition, the several hundred stores you keep open and the thousands of "helpful" staff. You're making me pay for those things in your product pricing and I'm not interested in them.
I wonder, do you apply these rules to other retail purchases you make, or just wargames figures?
Unless you're buying your cornflakes in plain plastic bags, or your washing powder lose from a tub then you're presumably happy to pay for coloured packaging on other items that you only discard.
It's fairly common practice for retailers to offer say tins of beans or cans of coke as multiples, or do BOGOF, or 3 for 2 offers - I think multiples in blisters are the same thing, aren't they?
The only high street retailer I can think of that doesn't have a "helpful staff" model is Argos so again, unless you only shop there I'd suggest you're happy to put up with (and pay for) these things in other situations.
I'm genuinely curious why some people are happy to denigrate practices in the wargaming world that are commonplace in all other aspects of our retail dominated culture.
These things are just forms of marketing. Ways of persuading you to buy product A at the expense of product B - or as well as. We all know the game and Wargames manufacturers have to play it as much as any other retailer or they go out of business.
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These all seem fantastically low to me! I prefer higher-quality figures and I tend to be perfectly comfortable with individual figures which are $10-$15 USD, though I expect better than that if I'm buying a boxed set or multi-figure pack.
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I wonder, do you apply these rules to other retail purchases you make, or just wargames figures?
Unless you're buying your cornflakes in plain plastic bags, or your washing powder lose from a tub then you're presumably happy to pay for coloured packaging on other items that you only discard.
It's fairly common practice for retailers to offer say tins of beans or cans of coke as multiples, or do BOGOF, or 3 for 2 offers - I think multiples in blisters are the same thing, aren't they?
The only high street retailer I can think of that doesn't have a "helpful staff" model is Argos so again, unless you only shop there I'd suggest you're happy to put up with (and pay for) these things in other situations.
I'm genuinely curious why some people are happy to denigrate practices in the wargaming world that are commonplace in all other aspects of our retail dominated culture.
These things are just forms of marketing. Ways of persuading you to buy product A at the expense of product B - or as well as. We all know the game and Wargames manufacturers have to play it as much as any other retailer or they go out of business.
I think aswell to say you don't want to pay for packaging artwork or the added fluff/story is to belittle the practice of the artist who makes the figure you like, since you're essentially saying they should treat what they do purely as an economic exercise and not, as is often the case, a labour of love following lots of development and consideration, which often involves the creation of other artworks and stories for the characters being made to inhabit.
Yes, you're buying a miniature from them, but in asking them to supply that to you you have to take into account that for them the business of making these miniatures is often more than just a clock in clock out piece of work.
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Actually, given all that is involved, plus inflation from the "distant past" if I was starting a fresh I simply would have to be more judicious which, if any, 25+mm Armies/war bands I built or start in a smaller size. I begrudge the artists (sculptors, packaging artists, etc.,) nothing for they are making a living expressing themselves to please our interests. I am still not eager to spend $10 for a figure (though in rare occasions recently I have) because of my upbringing but if they can sell them at that price then more power to them.
Much as I love my old and and my new Sandra Garrity figures I am not a painter of the quality to buy a figure of hers in the double digits some of her figures (or anyone else's for that matter) sell for on Reaper. If I had only the option to build an army of double digit cost figures I simply would not be in war gaming. Cheap? No, just realistic about my skills and my limits - just as I won't buy a Lexus, Mercedes, or Corvette when a Toyota or Honda is available either.
Let others spend that level of money on their addiction... hobby... which I applaud but I simply cannot bring myself to do that for war games. Now a custom figure for a major anniversary gift is different.
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Some interesting points, i;d say though having seen plenty of commercial hobby product start ups fail that the project being a labour of love means nothing, more SHOULD see it as an economic exercise as ultimately that is what it is.
Don't get me wrong I love artwork/fluff/extras and will gladly pay for them in the form of artwork/books/merchandise....but packaging is something where ultimately I d prefer something secure yet simple.
I take the same approach to other products, function over form, I don't care about the cereal box, I care about the cereal(i'd take it out and out it in a container anyway) packaging for me usually is just a nuisance that gets thrown away, I don't like it being a justification to hike up prices though, look at warlord, obscene amounts of packing but they're postage is standard and free over a certain amount.
I don't see this as belittling the artist, when it comes to historical especially I prefer to do my own 'research' when it comes to fluff and background and when it comes to fantasy prefer a DIY approach.
When it comes down to it, it's a miniature company, that's what the customers are there for.
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Some interesting points, i;d say though having seen plenty of commercial hobby product start ups fail that the project being a labour of love means nothing, more SHOULD see it as an economic exercise as ultimately that is what it is.
The problem with treating it as an economic exercise is threads like this. So many people complain about paying reasonable prices, that it often becomes impossible to sell stuff. So you cut prices, lose money, and another minis line disappears from the market.
A few years back I released some scifi troopers that were £3 each singly, and down to £2 in full platoon packs, which I thought was cheap, given that they were big and chunky and costing me £1.57 from the caster... but at the same time, another manufacturer launched a similar range for 2 dollars a figure, which was about £1.20 at the time. So I just got lots of questions about why I was trying to gouge the customer.
Now, I knew the other manufacturer and asked; turns out his new minis were a range he personally wanted, so he was funding them through his (highly paid) day job. He wasn't making a penny on them, didn't care about profit, he was just getting the toys he wanted while offsetting losses against tax. And having spoken to others, he's not alone, and that makes it very difficult for full-timers to compete...
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Only chucking in my 2p worth.
Personally I game skirmish games exclusively, 98% in 28mm with a very small 20mm collection. Hence I don't need a ton of models but several 'periods' for my interests. I buy mostly from retailers I've dealt with in the past and have proven themselves being a reliable source (EM4, Hasslefree, Copplestone, Artizan etc). For a 28mm metal model I find £4-5 a perfectly reasonable pricing, a bit more if it happens to be a large model or something I really fancy. I enjoy the gaming aspect more than the painting so give the models only a quick paintjob to get them on the table, although I've painted ALL my models... so although I appreciate a nice model, I don't go looking for those amazingly well sculpted high end minis that my painting will never do justice. I have a (for the moment) a complete Fantasy Flight Games Imperial Assault collection, where a single plastic blister cost about £6-8, but I have no objection to that. There's a license fee to use the Star Wars name, there are added cards for the two game variants and I think the sculpts are really good, so although I've spent a lot of money on that product, I have also got a lot of game for that.
Recently I've discovered Reaper Bones and I find them excellent for my use, they are nicely made, paint up quickly and have a low pricing, what's NOT to like??
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Now, I knew the other manufacturer and asked; turns out his new minis were a range he personally wanted, so he was funding them through his (highly paid) day job. He wasn't making a penny on them, didn't care about profit, he was just getting the toys he wanted while offsetting losses against tax. And having spoken to others, he's not alone, and that makes it very difficult for full-timers to compete...
He's not alone. Happens all the time in painting too. Look at any of the "painting services" that charge £1.50 per 28mm. Artificially lowers the market price.
As an aside to Lovejoy, my other half bought some of his woodland critters(squirrel & snake) - at salute - we think £5-6 would be a fairer price for what you get.
J
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As an aside to Lovejoy, my other half bought some of his woodland critters(squirrel & snake) - at salute - we think £5-6 would be a fairer price for what you get.
J
Thank you! :D
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Most of what I do is in the region of 50-70 figures per side so I wouldn't spend more than £1.50 on a basic trooper. Plastic I wouldn't spend more than £1 per figure and preferably 50p. This would be in line with inflation on Citadel prices from 1987. Characters I may go more but generally character models are in a style I dislike - overblown muscles and inflated axes. I also have a lead mountain that will last me an age so I don't tend to get very much and can afford to wait on ebay.
Has the hobby become more niche than in 1987? Are these release runs smaller? I can understand a small manufacturer being more expensive but making £1 on something that costs you £1.10 to produce is a profit margin many companies would dream about (you are up at Apple iPhone levels there)
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Costs involved in making a mini....
Sculpt - either a physical cost or the time of the sculptor
Master Mould (and the possibility of having to start from scratch if something goes wrong)
Master Castings
Production Mould
Advertising - as someone stated earlier he wants to see painted examples on a website... these need to be paid for (as does the website). Even if the manufacturer/sculptor is a good painter it still isn't free; it is time spent that could be used for some thing else.
Castings.... Either using a contract caster (and prices and quality vary widely) or in-house (cost of machinery, metal, space and power)
Quality control - time
Packaging - even if you don't blister, dealer bags do plus the time involved.
Add to that ancillary costs such as computers, space, electricity et cetera, et cetera.
If everything is taken into account the price of a miniature should probably be doubled. Of course 'the market' won't pay that.
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You don't cast one figure at a time; you cast a whole mould's worth.
The reason selling in multiples is much better for the manufacturer is that a figure pack is the output of a single mould spin.
If the seller has to separate the figures out, then inevitably some will sell better than others, so he ends up with spare figures.
In the case of historical stuff, you are normally buying units anyway, so buying figures in 6s or 8s isn't much of a hardship.
The Old Glory model of 30 foot or 10 mounted in a big bag can be less convenient.
As to price, the most expensive historicals are Foundry at £12 for a pack of 6 or 8 foot or 3 mounted. So about £2 a figure.
Everyone else is cheaper; Old Glory works out at less than £1 a figure. Most others are somewhere in between, typically £1.20 to £.150 a figure.
28mm plastics are cheaper; a box of 60 Victrix figures is £30, so 50p a figure.
I realise fantasy aficionados are used to paying far more than this for their figures, but they probably don't need 500 or so to make an army!
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Like Legionnaire I play skirmish games so my model count is quite low (painted :) ) and their is a lot of flexibility in what I'm willing to pay for a single figure. I don't think about what a miniature is worth due to production; It matters what the model does for me.
If I'm sourcing models for a game I want to play (mostly models to paint) there a number of criteria that loosen my wallet/ open my bank account. The numbers are in Canadian currency and relative to a single fig of approximately human size somewhere between 28mm and 32mm that scales well with the rest of my collection for the relevant project.
The model is a fair representation of what I'm looking for; I don't like the model much but don't hate it so much it will never be painted: $8
I like the model and it suits my purposes well: 10-$12
The sculpt is cool, a great fit for the project and I'm really excited to paint it when it arrives: $15
I love the model. It "speaks" to me. If it doesn't fit my project I'll change it so it does: $25+
The math is different dealing with boxed sets with multiple miniatures. If I was buying 10 or 20 figures of a similar type I would expect the price/ unit to be quite a bit lower. In a lot I'm sure there are a few really eye catching sculpts but there will likely be awful ones I wouldn't even want to pay for.
For the most part I'm still surprised by most miniature manufacturers; I find the prices very reasonable; Maybe it's because I bought quite a bit from GW :) .
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I wonder, do you apply these rules to other retail purchases you make, or just wargames figures?
Unless you're buying your cornflakes in plain plastic bags, or your washing powder lose from a tub then you're presumably happy to pay for coloured packaging on other items that you only discard.
It's fairly common practice for retailers to offer say tins of beans or cans of coke as multiples, or do BOGOF, or 3 for 2 offers - I think multiples in blisters are the same thing, aren't they?
The only high street retailer I can think of that doesn't have a "helpful staff" model is Argos so again, unless you only shop there I'd suggest you're happy to put up with (and pay for) these things in other situations.
I'm genuinely curious why some people are happy to denigrate practices in the wargaming world that are commonplace in all other aspects of our retail dominated culture.
These things are just forms of marketing. Ways of persuading you to buy product A at the expense of product B - or as well as. We all know the game and Wargames manufacturers have to play it as much as any other retailer or they go out of business.
Your argument is spurious as it compares dissimilar markets.
But to answer your points.
No I don't have the same standards when buying washing powder for simple reasons. The washing powder is manufactured in tons, that's sent to customers in boxes by the hundreds of thousands. Therefore the artwork etc on the boxes is amortised over millions of units and it becomes almost negligible in cost. Likewise the packaging is cardboard which is mass produced and cheap. It probably accounts for a few pennies of cost on a few pounds of product. It's also necessary because brand loyalty in that market is low and the packaging has to fight for visual appeal alongside many other brands on a shelf. That is not the same market requirement as wargames figures. Out of interest I do buy many things without packaging. Eg vegetables, a simple paper bag is all that's needed, not a plastic tray, plastic wrap and a label.
Compare that to miniature packaging and art costs where I've seen manufactures use the argument that it's as much as 60p per figure. On a £6 figure that's 10%. It's not a necessary cost and its excessive. On a different note it's also mostly not recyclable.
I do understand the requirement for eye catching display material on products that need shelf appeal. Where they are competing with other similar products in the same store. I believe that's a very small fraction of the products in our industry. It only really applies to those companies large enough to be putting product into major stores such as GW.
As to your view of offers and BOGOF deals. I understand entirely the deal in providing discounts on quantity. However that's NOT the same as multiple figures in blisters for two reasons.
1) if I want one can of Coke I buy one can. Often buying single figures is not an option. I understand this may be at a slight premium.
2) several figures of different poses in a single blister is NOT the same product. Using your analogy it is "buy a can of coke and a tin of beans and a pack of washing powder and get a few % off". It's a great deal, IF you like beans and have dirty clothes AND are thirsty.
I understand the batch manufacturing approach and the necessary tooling (mould) that produce multiple products/figures per spin. However this is a manufacturing constraint that is being pushed on the customer. It's a hard problem to solve unless you have volume of sales and can produce a mould per figure. On the reverse side a metal figure is an unusual product as it can be recycled almost indefinitely. Whilst you wouldn't choose to put a low selling and high selling product in the same mould, demand may cause this. In many other products you'd lose all the value of the over produced product, at least with metal miniatures you can recoup the metal price even though the labour cost is lost.
As to "staff", yes of course I shop other places than Argos. My point was (although I may have made it poorly) that SOME games companies create a lot of additional activities that their business model generally doesn't support and then pay for them by upping prices. This doesn't apply to the vast bulk of producers that have smaller operations.
Firstly war gaming is a luxury market. No one NEEDS toy soldiers {admit it ;-)} but at the same time it's also a price sensitive market. It's also for the majority, very low volume and low margin. Those characteristics of the market suggest very specific marketing, production, distribution methods and business models. As an aside that's interestingly why KS has been so popular (when it works well, it solves or helps ease a number of problems above). However a number of companies continue To pursue distribution, packaging and marketing avenues that increase their prices in a price sensitive market and then complain how difficult the market is. In this market there are a lot of failed businesses and lines because they are marketed, packaged and distributed as premium products and this is reflected in the pricing but NOT in sales volume.
Now I am clearly not in possession of every fact of every manufacturer. However I have run two of my own businesses. I understand the need to market a product. However I challenge that very very few miniature purchasing decisions are taken stood at a shelf with company A product in one hand and company B product in the other choosing which to buy. The vast majority of those decisions are made through word of mouth either in clubs or through forums like this one. The products are ideally suited to photography and visual appeal which can be very well serviced on line.
Marketing is NOT about advertising or how you display and box a figure. It's about understanding the market you are in, the selling points of the products you develop and building your entire business model to exploit that knowledge and satisfy your customer for your own benefit. Many many companies don't get this. In our industry and others. those that do, flourish.
Gw is not one of them.
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I think aswell to say you don't want to pay for packaging artwork or the added fluff/story is to belittle the practice of the artist who makes the figure you like, since you're essentially saying they should treat what they do purely as an economic exercise and not, as is often the case, a labour of love following lots of development and consideration, which often involves the creation of other artworks and stories for the characters being made to inhabit.
Yes, you're buying a miniature from them, but in asking them to supply that to you you have to take into account that for them the business of making these miniatures is often more than just a clock in clock out piece of work.
I'm not belittling anyone's artistic ability in the slightest.
We have heard from both consumers and producers on this thread. And the common thread is that this is a price sensitive low volume market, yet the products are niche and require significant development effort.
The bottom line is we all perceive a VALUE in the things we buy. If the value to us is greater than the cost then we make a purchase decision. If it isn't we don't.
Conversely for the producer, his equation is can I make enough profit from this to do it. (We'll ignore cash flow for now, but it's often more critical as people like Andy from Heresy miniatures will testify). Note that "enough profit" will differ person to person. If it's a hobby endeavour then break even may suffice. If it's a personally commissioned line, then a loss may be acceptable - ie self funded. However I don't think a manufacturer can set out to operate in a certain manner, price his products accordingly and then complain that people think he's expensive and don't buy. Likewise I wouldn't have sympathy with a producer that sets his prices below his business costs, unless he's a rich philanthropist.
I'm very willing to pay top dollar for talent and originality. I'd very much like to pay sculptors for sculpting. I'd like MORE of the cost of the miniature in his pocket than spent on many of the aspects of the business we've discussed elsewhere. I see a number of practices from a number of companies that do not support this.
I dislike seeing the same high prices charged for poorer artistic work or unoriginal copying, especially when the pricing seems to be set as 'how much can I get away with?' and 'how much does everyone else charge?'
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I'm not sure what it is about the wargaming world that makes people think we are immune to the iron law of the market... This discussion pops up every few months on this forum, and elsewhere of course. And it's always basically the same plaintive argument from someone in the business: 'You enjoy the hobby - and we're just a cottage industry. So please let us make a decent living from it, by charging a bit more for what we do. Otherwise we'll have to stop doing it.'
I've been struggling to think of parallels with any other (strictly non-essential purchase) cottage industries or burgeoning 'craft' business sector where this argument would wash with customers. Micro/craft breweries? Speciality bakers or chutney makers? Artists? Writers? Bands? Yes, I would happily pay a price premium for a pint of craft ale from a specialist maker, over what I would pay for a mass produced pint. In part because I know it would be a better product, and in part, from an altruistic willingness to pay a little bit more to support a worthwhile craft business and a cause I believe in. So I might pay ten or twenty percent more for a pint. I might even pay fifty percent more.
What I wouldn't pay - and none of us would - is two or three times the price of an equivalent pint from a big brewer.
But that's what some people seem to expect when it comes to wargames figures. I can't really think of anywhere else where, if it is apparent that some traders can make a product for X price, customers would willingly pay (or be expected to pay) two or three times that for a broadly comparable product. It's simply not how the world works, is it?
Obviously if the quality is manifestly higher, that commands a price premium in any market. And it's true that a lot of fantasy and sci-fi miniatures are higher quality products than rank-and-file historicals. But it's a question of the size of the price differential, surely? If so many makers of metal miniatures can turn them out for somewhere between one and two pounds per figure, then does the quality difference in the move up to the cool kid 'craft makers', really justify a price tag of £5 or £6 per figure? Much less £10? Well, evidently from this discussion, to some people yes, to others no.
So - as with most of these circular philosophical arguments on this forum - it just comes down to personal taste. We're never all going to agree on it, nor persuade people who feel the other way about it. So why bother to expend the time and energy blithering on about it? (A question I ask myself every time I take part in one of these discussions! ;))
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Well said captain blood.
Your premium price for craft beer argument is spot on. Because you perceive it to be BETTER. It has greater value to you.
I'm saying the same thing in essence. Better sculpts and casts, not fancier and more packaging with expensive stores and middleman costs and unnecessary, non optional add ons.
Would you like your craft beer served in a crystal glass, nestling on a red silk cushion, served in a bar that it owns (and won't let any other liquid in)? And every single pint accompanied by a booklet on where the hops came from?
Or marked up by all the middle men so the brewer only gets a small % of the cash you gave the bar man?
Or your craft brewer to run a KS to install new equipment to produce 100 times as much, stuff it in cans and try to tellyou it's the same stuff even though it tastes of plastic (oh and charge you more for the privilege ?)
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Has the hobby become more niche than in 1987? Are these release runs smaller? I can understand a small manufacturer being more expensive but making £1 on something that costs you £1.10 to produce is a profit margin many companies would dream about (you are up at Apple iPhone levels there)
I'd argue the hobby has become less niche, with bigger overall numbers of gamers. But release runs are smaller, as the number of competing businesses has proliferated even more.
As for the £1 profit on a £1.10 cost, I have to disagree. It sounds like a much bigger margin than most companies have - but remember they are including the cost of wages, salaries, company vehicles, premises, factories, R+D, utilities etc in their costs. The £1 profit on £1.10 is simply physical production cost versus sales price, with none of the other myriad expenses added in.
...Lots of accurate stuff...
Well said, Dags, I'm in total agreement.
Obviously if the quality is manifestly higher, that commands a price premium in any market. And it's true that a lot of fantasy and sci-fi miniatures are higher quality products than rank-and-file historicals. But it's a question of the size of the price differential, surely? If so many makers of metal miniatures can turn them out for somewhere between one and two pounds per figure, then does the quality difference in the move up to the cool kid 'craft makers', really justify a price tag of £5 or £6 per figure? Much less £10? Well, evidently from this discussion, to some people yes, to others no.
It's not just a matter of looking at a final figure and deciding if the quality is worth 3 times as much. It's things like paying £300 for a decent fantasy character sculpt, when that same £300 will get you 6 rank-and-file dolly conversions for a historical unit. Which you then sell in the hundreds, to army buyers, for a smaller profit-per-mini, but a much larger overall return. The guy asking £5 for a character model is not saying it's 3 times as good, he's selling it for the lowest price he can and still have enough to make another.
BTW, you referring to scifi/fantasy miniatures businesses as 'cool kid 'craft makers'' is pretty disparaging. This is how Jo and I put food on the table and shoes on our kid's feet.
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I'd argue the hobby has become less niche, with bigger overall numbers of gamers. But release runs are smaller, as the number of competing businesses has proliferated even more.
As for the £1 profit on a £1.10 cost, I have to disagree. It sounds like a much bigger margin than most companies have - but remember they are including the cost of wages, salaries, company vehicles, premises, factories, R+D, utilities etc in their costs. The £1 profit on £1.10 is simply physical production cost versus sales price, with none of the other myriad expenses added in.
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I guess that is the bit that comes down to release size. Your fixed costs of running a business have to be supported by your miniature sales. If you produce 100,000 models then they can be spread much further. If you only have sales of 2000 then you have much higher overhead per miniature. Hence the query about the scope of the hobby.
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Last point is that if £4 is too rich in 28mm then in 15mm the same quality of figure is about 75p and you can get some lovely stuff in 15mm these days. Half the size, a quarter the price and a tenth the storage problem.
This is a great point, and one that I've considered a few times too... Especially with the advent of affordable high-resolution 3D printing, which makes small detail and consistent scaling much easier to achieve than with traditional hand sculpts at this scale. Even the cost of prototyping at 15mm is significantly less than 28mm.
I don't really agree with that to be honest...
5 reasons why (IMHO) historicals are generally cheaper:
1. There are a lot of basic troops that can be converted quickly from dollies, saving sculpting time.
2. They are often sold in large numbers, rather than as individual minis, thus benefiting from economies of scale.
3. A lot of historical manufacturers do it as a hobby; they often operate around break-even, funding themselves with a day job or a pension.
4. Historicals tend to be lighter and simpler, often around half the metal, of a sci/fant model, thus cheaper to mould and cast.
5. Historicals are typically just not as well sculpted as decent sci/fant stuff. There are of course exceptions, but that's the general rule. Most of the freelance sculptors I know charge around double for sci/fant stuff than they do for historical sculpting, because higher standards are expected.
It's largely down to the character/skirmish nature of most sci/fant stuff, versus the mass troop block style of most historicals.
There's a couple of other less obvious factors too:
1) We "know" what historical units look like, so there is no real need to have concept art created and developed compared to sci-fi or fantasy.
2) Historical models of the same time period and scale are usually pretty compatible with one another. Fantasy and sci-fi less so, as they are often taken from proprietary backgrounds which may not be very compatible.
Rick Priestly actually commented on these very issues when pressed on why Antares figures were rather more expensive than Warlord's other ranges. Simple answer was that to make the game compelling (and marketable), they had to design everything in that fictional universe from scratch, which means somebody has to be basically paid to sit there and design it all (several times if need be).
Has the hobby become more niche than in 1987? Are these release runs smaller? I can understand a small manufacturer being more expensive but making £1 on something that costs you £1.10 to produce is a profit margin many companies would dream about (you are up at Apple iPhone levels there)
No, but there are now far more games and manufacturers clamouring for attention. So the numbers of people playing any one game system (assuming Sci-fi or fantasy here) are more fractured than they may have been previously.
So even making 100% profit on the figures still doesn't add up to very much if the overall number sold is relatively low.
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I understand the batch manufacturing approach and the necessary tooling (mould) that produce multiple products/figures per spin. However this is a manufacturing constraint that is being pushed on the customer. It's a hard problem to solve unless you have volume of sales and can produce a mould per figure. On the reverse side a metal figure is an unusual product as it can be recycled almost indefinitely. Whilst you wouldn't choose to put a low selling and high selling product in the same mould, demand may cause this. In many other products you'd lose all the value of the over produced product, at least with metal miniatures you can recoup the metal price even though the labour cost is lost.
Three points regarding multi-packs and mold usage.
1-The Recyclability of metals is only really a useful buffer if you're doing your own casting. If you're paying a caster, then you can't recoup the cost of the cast figs just by selling them back to the caster.
2-For a small operation, Labor costs are still a big factor. Time spent reusing figures you can't sell is time that could have been spent casting figures that do.
3-Regardless of the size of the operation limiting the number of SKU's is a huge boon. Keeping track of every figure rather than just packs is just ALOT more work.
Thus, in many cases buying individual figs will be either not offered or will come at a premium. There's really no way the cost can't be passed on to the consumer, nor should we expect that a producer/seller will be eager to eat them.
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*stuff about beer*
This I completely agree with.
Though think I used an analogy with artizan chocolate and Whispa bars when I made a similar point.
:)
I also agree about I don't know why I get dragged in to these circular discussion.
:)
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The biggest problem in these discussions always seems to be that gamers from different groups all join in and may as well be talking different languages to each other :)
Historical gamers and fantasy/modern/sci-fi skirmish gamers are barely in the same hobby. We like to pretend we are because it makes our hobby bigger but let's be blunt about it, we're not (Unless you happen to be someone who likes both).
I'm 'never' going to be interested in 100s of guys in funny hats with integral bases and, again let's be blunt, iffily scupted (Some exceptions these days with new plastics etc.).
And most historical gamers are 'never' going to be interested in 5 high quality, dynamically posed, multi-part, resin masters of 5 fantasy vikings that'll cost them the same as 80 of their usual ones.
As I only found this thread cos someone mentioned us, I should probably reply to that too :)
If you're into our part of the hobby, and you consider our average pricepoint of £5 to be at the top end of what you'd pay, you should probably get intimately acquainted with Ebay sorry. You're about to be priced out of the hobby unless huge advances happen fairly fast in plastic or something.
I would happily stick us in the ring to qualify for best value for quality of sculting/casting. There are a number of other companies out there doing great work that i'd never say we're 'better' than (I might if you catch me after a few pints ;) ) but the vast majority, if not all, of the companies with sculpts I consider to be on Kev's level charge the same or more than we do. We've been holding on to our price point for a few years now with both hands, I don't know how much longer that'll last and I won't feel remotely guilty when we do have to finally bump up a level.
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The biggest problem in these discussions always seems to be that gamers from different groups all join in and may as well be talking different languages to each other :)
Historical gamers and fantasy/modern/sci-fi skirmish gamers are barely in the same hobby. We like to pretend we are because it makes our hobby bigger but let's be blunt about it, we're not (Unless you happen to be someone who likes both).
I'm 'never' going to be interested in 100s of guys in funny hats with integral bases and, again let's be blunt, iffily scupted (Some exceptions these days with new plastics etc.).
And most historical gamers are 'never' going to be interested in 5 high quality, dynamically posed, multi-part, resin masters of 5 fantasy vikings that'll cost them the same as 80 of their usual ones.
...
It's ironic since I am primarily a fantasy gamer. I suppose it comes down the the fact that the five resin fantasy vikings don't sell very many - hence they are highly priced to cover the contribution they have to make - hence they sell even less. There is obviously a price/demand equation where as the price of a miniature increases they won't sell as many. The problem is this can push a business over the edge of the curve - so sales shrink, overheads stay the same so miniature prices have to increase, so sales shrink further, etc.
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It's ironic since I am primarily a fantasy gamer. I suppose it comes down the the fact that the five resin fantasy vikings don't sell very many - hence they are highly priced to cover the contribution they have to make - hence they sell even less. There is obviously a price/demand equation where as the price of a miniature increases they won't sell as many. The problem is this can push a business over the edge of the curve - so sales shrink, overheads stay the same so miniature prices have to increase, so sales shrink further, etc.
It doesn't really work like that. We price things based primarily on cost to us. There's some wiggle room but not much. All of our resin masters.cost 1 of 2 price points despite some being popular and others selling like 3 in total. The cost to us is almost always the same.
With metal we maintain a stable price point and costs are averaged out across the line. Which is why a figure like Jade who is skinny and in a pose that allows 17 or 18 to a mould costs the same as a multi part figure like Jason Shaw where we can only fit 7 or something.
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I see no purpose in paying premium prices for miniature works of art that I am going to paint because I (and I think the vast majority of gamers) cannot paint them well enough to justify the expense.
The extra detail and quality of boutique figure ranges is wasted on most of us. I am totally content to buy figures from one manufacturer at 60% the cost of another because after I have finished with them the difference in detail is not evident.
Of course that assumes the figures are even painted at all, most of our purchases in this hobby get stuck away in boxes and never seen again until we sell/trade them off for something else.
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RobH, I actually agree with your first point. While I pay a little extra for sculpts I really like, that doesn't mean they have to be overly intricate or incredible. That being said, an overly intricate miniature will turn me off because I can't be bothered to paint them or spend the time they'll deserve.
It's one of the reasons I find GW's design aesthetic pretty peculiar. For a game which endears itself to far more 12 year olds than any other wargame...their miniatures are often the most intricate/over styled figures...completely beyond the realm of painting for 60-70% of their market. lol
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BTW, you referring to scifi/fantasy miniatures businesses as 'cool kid 'craft makers'' is pretty disparaging. This is how Jo and I put food on the table and shoes on our kid's feet.
I'm afraid I don't know your company or products at all, so I certainly wasn't referring to you as one of 'the cool kids'. I was talking about outfits like Hasslefree and Heresy, who carry a very definite and cultivated 'cool' cachet. A positioning - well earned from the excellence of their output, choice of subject matter, as well as how they style and communicate themselves - that partly explains why they can successfully charge a premium price from their many loyal fans.
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Your premium price for craft beer argument is spot on.
Your argument is spurious as it compares dissimilar markets.
So toy soldiers are not like cornflakes but they are like craft beer?
Got it.
:)
Presumably this craft beer is sold in unmarked bottles, or maybe just straight from a bucket because fancy packaging is bad.
And not in pubs because middle men are bad.
Not even in the brewery's own pub because helpful staff are bad.
All of which begs the question of how you ever hear about or obtain this craft beer in the first place.
:)
I imagine it must be quite hard work figuring out all the unnecessary expense you don't want to pay for before making a purchase.
"Gee, I'd love a tasty sandwich right now, but I happen to think the parent company is spending too much of the asking price on hats for it's employees. Until they sort out this headgear overspend I guess I'll just go hungry a while longer"
Me I look at a thing and if I want it then I look at it's price. Then I decide if I will receive an appropriate amount of pleasure for the thing in exchange for handing over that price.
I don't worry about whether I'm paying for packaging, helpful staff, the ego of the manufacturer or the company owner's predilection for Siberian hamsters.
I guess I've been doing this "buying stuff I like" thing all wrong.
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I'd say in regards to the point made about being better off on ebay, its far worse for prices.
I think the point that you need less miniatures for fantasy isn't a good one, a lot of fantasy gamers like big armies and in my experience the bare minimum of 'forces' tends to be around a dozen miniatures which at (using otherworld as an example) might work at say 9 henchmen at £11.00 for 3 so £33.00 and then three characters at 5/6/ each works out at £61 upwards which is a big chunk of change in many peoples books, you could buy a large plastic boxset for historical or fantasy for that point.
Please not I have nothing against Otherworld, i'm using them as an example as since leaving GW i've been more in contact with historical over fantasy so my knowledge of the fantasy market isn't as good.
I'd point out with regards to the notion that fantasy/sci-fi has to be done from scratch is a terrible one, most fantasy/sci-fi draws from real life, it's rare to see anything truly original, gates of Antares falls into this, despite My Priestley's claims its not very original once you look up close.
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A question I ask myself every time I take part in one of these discussions!
Yeah, but at least you paint stuff and add to the wealth of the forum...
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I think the discussion was worth having, i've never seen it discussed before(as im comparatively new here)
I should paint more but my last project as some know guttered out and any posts I made before got no interest so I kinda gave up.
I do have some grand plans for a series of linked scenarios for the ECW/TYW about iconoclasm so a preview here might be forthcoming...
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I'm afraid I don't know your company or products at all, so I certainly wasn't referring to you as one of 'the cool kids'. I was talking about outfits like Hasslefree and Heresy, who carry a very definite and cultivated 'cool' cachet. A positioning - well earned from the excellence of their output, choice of subject matter, as well as how they style and communicate themselves - that partly explains why they can successfully charge a premium price from their many loyal fans.
Just to clarify, we don't charge a 'premium price', not even close. In fact we charge on the low end of the market for the quality of product we offer. Take a look at some of the other sculptors on Kev's level and check the prices of their products.
because 'that' is how you're supposed to compare things. There is some subjectivity but overall it's far more objective than people seem to think. Sculpting quality (and then quality of casting) are different to the artistic side of things and whether you like a sculptor's style or the artwork they are copying. A sculptor's skill is usually tied to how long it takes them to make something which is directly tied to how much that thing then costs. Basic economics.
TWD is correct on pretty much all points. Comparing prices to random other companies isn't the way to go, you just compare to whether or not you want something and then whether you can afford it. We are a luxury market after all, including the historical side. Gaming isn't a necessity or anything.
If what you care about is having 200 of something and you care about it far more than what they individually look like, buy cheap. If you care a lot more that the thing you are buying is aesthetically pleasing, then you don't really get that option as they cost more to make :)
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How much is reasonable for postage?
Did anyone even answer this half? :)
Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up. Postal boxes, packaging and wages of the person packing your order also aren't free.
It's up to an individual company if they have priced in free postage to their products, we haven't and I guess Otherworld haven't either. Free postage comes mostly from competing retail stores, especially as it offered a way of an extra discount without 'looking' like an extra discount to the companies who's product they were selling.
Free postage is never free anyway, it's included in the price one way or another :)
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''Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up.''
Agreed, but in the example I gave (otherworld) prices were based on money spent so you could be paying a few quid extra for comparatively a small amount of extra weight/packaging.
For me anything beyond a tenner is a no no.
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Just to clarify, we don't charge a 'premium price', not even close.
Yes, you do. (Assuming you're representing one of the brands I mentioned, Hasslefree or Heresy).
This is the nub of this circular argument.
If you're charging five or six pounds for an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person, and someone else can produce an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person for a pound or two, then you are charging a premium price.
Your argument goes that it's a premium product - the design is better; the sculpting is better; the casting is better. Some of those things are subjective, some less so. But whether the product is 'better' or not, if you're charging three or four times as much as a competitor, that's a price premium.
Of course we're all used to that in every product category in the world. Why is an Audi worth more than a VW worth more than a Skoda (even though they're all essentially the same thing, made by the same company)? Because the quality of design, manufacture and performance is notionally far superior in one brand to the other. Although much of this is actually reputational, and little to do with the actual performance.
What you're really saying, is that a sculpt by Kev is so much better than a sculpt by Paul Hicks, Steve Saleh, Mark Copplestone, The Perrys, Mike Owen etc etc, that it's worth several times the price.
Well that's entirely subjective and depends - like almost everything else in wargaming - on personal taste. Some people are so smitten with Kev's work that they're happy to pay three or four times what they might pay for a figure by any of the above named sculptors. Personally, I'm not. Is his work excellent? Manifestly. Is it worth four times the price of a Perry metal figure? Not to me. That's why no-one involved in this discussion is ever likely to agree. It's down to what you like and what you're prepared to pay for it. And we all see it differently. Which is why this question was never going to cause anything other than an argument - same as it does every time it comes up :)
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''Which is why this question was never going to cause anything other than an argument - same as it does every time it comes up ''
Didn't mean for that (although a good argument can be healthy, hearing other viewpoints and challenging ones own), was really just asking what would be considered the 'standard' price for minis and postage as GW/ebay has skewed things for me, and i'm wary about committing to new ranges.
''the design is better; the sculpting is better; the casting is better. Some of those things are subjective''
I'd say they all are, look at GW, technically it is more detailed, of better quality and often full of extras...but at the same time while this is increasingly true I think that the above while normally perks are in this case negatives as the miniatures are too big and complicated now and due to the CAD design that makes this possible have certainly lost a good deal of the flavour or soul they had before.
I'd sooner go for the technically lesser but more characterful sculpts of yesteryear over much of this modern Jazz.
Speaking of redoubt, i've heard good things but the site leaves much to the imagination, anyone care to give me the straight skinny?
I'd be interested to here what people think are good/bad, quality/value ranges out there preferably in 28mm for historical and fantasy (although if the mods feel it will cause trouble feel free to say and i'll drop it)
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You might get more useful feedback if you gave a bit more info about your present and future projects (maybe you did, I haven't read all of this thread) in the relevant board rather than asking in the general section, and I paraphrase, 'what minis good, what minis bad?'
As has already been commented, this hobby has such a diverse range of genres, aesthetics and materials that such sweeping questions quickly bring forth division rather than resolution.
;)
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I'd be interested to here what people think are good/bad, quality/value ranges out there preferably in 28mm for historical and fantasy (although if the mods feel it will cause trouble feel free to say and i'll drop it)
I don't think that would be a good idea and of course that would be very subjective. Free general discussion is one thing, but 'naming and shaming' or 'the best figures are' type posts rarely end well.
We have Oathsworn and Artemis Black prepared to stick their necks out for their respective companies, but that was their choice... 'outing' other companies who have not chosen to join the discussion is a bit unfair to say the least.
:)
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So toy soldiers are not like cornflakes but they are like craft beer?
What I wouldn't pay - and none of us would - is two or three times the price of an equivalent pint from a big brewer.
But people do......Sainsbury's this morning: Budweiser £2 per litre. Leffe £4 per litre. Bacchus Framboise Raspberry Beer £6.67 per litre.
...and nobody's complaining that Leffe or Bacchus are ripping the punters off because they are not charging the same as Budweiser. Sometimes I'll even buy Leffe (when its on offer) and is does taste good!
The point is that both companies make a profit but catering to different ends of the market. One sells in bulk and makes a little profit on each unit, one sells less volume at a higher premium BUT both companies make a profit. In a similar manner to wargames figures homebrew will cost about 30p per litre, have the same effect (temporarily) but screw your guts up and is not the sort of stuff you'd want to share with any except close friends.
If you don't like the prices charged for a figure then don't buy it. Simple as that! That is the only language they understand - that's why I don't buy figures from the Evil Empire. It is basic market forces - a vendor will charge not what something is worth, or what it costs to produce but what he can get for it. Look at the cost of perfume or Audi over Skoda for a perfect example of that. So it doesn't really matter whether sculptor A is better than sculptor B or whether something is a premium product or price. Your perception of value only counts when you cash stays in your pocket or when it goes over the counter.
What I would observe is that in this respect Fantasy and Sci-fi gamers are their own worst enemies. The historical gamer, who needs to multiply figure costs by 80 or 100 IS far more price sensitive than the Sci-fi or Fantasy gamer buying onesies or twosies. Hence the price for historicals is cheaper....but I'll admit that there is a significant volume argument in there as well that means a vendor CAN reduce the price and stay in business. This same rule also applies to the boutique skirmish games, where reduced numbers of figures, packaging with bespoke rulesets and nice artwork all drive up the costs, almost always beyond what I'm willing to pay.
Last point is that I do note that it is the really nice figures - probably ones that have been sold at higher (premium) prices, with really nice paint jobs, are the ones that get the majority of the votes in the LPLs. Again - we are our own worst enemies. We'll complain about the price but love the nice models.
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There are lists in the relevant forum sections for both "cheap" and more "quality" suppliers related to fantasy. No doubt there are more but its a good starting place, and nice to revisit periodically.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=39902.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=27037.0
You could go through them and find what if any suits you. Although those two lists are not necessarily mutually exclusive and the argument in regards to the placing of a supplier in one or the other is not worth the effort - best to just say...
Your mileage will vary on what you like in those as much as anybody else.
At the end of the day, you find the things you like, if you are happy with the price, then you buy, if not, you don't, and you carry on looking
Its really that simple.
You don't need others to tell you which to like, or which is best, because that's up to you. Go look, enjoy seeing all that's on offer, and show us what you can do with it when you find what you think is best/good etc :)
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Personally I find these discussions border on being practically useless.
Some seem to forget that miniature wargaming is a LUXURY, it is not an essential to life, the entire industry could die tomorrow and for much of the world its absence would barely be registered.
Fact of the matter is when it comes to something like this the price ranges are going to be huge and costs can be dependent on a whole range of factors. Some of us don't mind paying a lot of money for certain companies figures, because we like them, we want to support their range, and frankly we don't mind the extra expense in pursuing something we enjoy.
I understand for some, penny pinching is a necessity, but for others its a lifestyle choice and one some seemingly try and impose on traders who they feel their prices aren't within their spectrum of 'reasonable' I.E dirt cheap.
The last thing we really need anyway is more cheap stuff to hoard in our lofts and never touch nor see again for years.
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''Postage 'should' go up as your order goes up. Postage is based on weight, your order goes up, the weight goes up.''
Agreed, but in the example I gave (otherworld) prices were based on money spent so you could be paying a few quid extra for comparatively a small amount of extra weight/packaging.
For me anything beyond a tenner is a no no.
That may be down to the post office, as if you go from one weight band to another, the cost can go up a lot. some of the weight bands are fairly narrow. eg http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/size-and-weight-guidelines.html http://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/uk-standard
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Personally I find these discussions border on being practically useless.
Some seem to forget that miniature wargaming is a LUXURY, it is not an essential to life, the entire industry could die tomorrow and for much of the world its absence would barely be registered.
Fact of the matter is when it comes to something like this the price ranges are going to be huge and costs can be dependent on a whole range of factors. Some of us don't mind paying a lot of money for certain companies figures, because we like them, we want to support their range, and frankly we don't mind the extra expense in pursuing something we enjoy.
I understand for some, penny pinching is a necessity, but for others its a lifestyle choice and one some seemingly try and impose on traders who they feel their prices aren't within their spectrum of 'reasonable' I.E dirt cheap.
The last thing we really need anyway is more cheap stuff to hoard in our lofts and never touch nor see again for years.
Yup that sounds about right
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Yes, you do. (Assuming you're representing one of the brands I mentioned, Hasslefree or Heresy).
This is the nub of this circular argument.
If you're charging five or six pounds for an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person, and someone else can produce an inch-high lump of metal cast in the shape of a little person for a pound or two, then you are charging a premium price.
Uhm, no. Using the word 'premium' to just mean 'more expensive' is not correct.
I don't know if you're just unaware of it but 'premium pricing' is an actual phrase with an actual meaning. It means artificially raising the price of a product to appeal to a certain market who likes expensive things.
Our miniatures cost more because they 'actually' cost more to make. It's incredibly unusual for a sculptor to be able to make a miniature as detailed as something Kev makes in significantly less time than it takes him and that's one of the biggest costs involved per mini. If I wanted him to make minis that we would end up selling for a quid, ignoring the fact that he wouldn't do it :), he'd knock them out 'much' quicker and they'd therefore be of a lesser quality
(I'd also not use resin masters for the moulding and I'd get a cheaper caster).
That's the only way to do that and stay in business.
It's not some kind of weird coincidence that historical figures are almost universally of lesser quality. It's just not affordable to have a top sculptor take 3 days to make each footman or whatever and then use the most expensive manufacturing methods no matter how many you think you'll end up selling. The market doesn't bear that kind of end pricing so there have to be cuts in manufacturing to keep costs down.
When you remove the historical companies from the equation, which you should because it's pretty much a different hobby, then we are at the cheaper end of the spectrum for the quality we put out. Like I said, we try very hard to keep ourselves there. Our product could probably stomach a price without losing enough customers to not be covered by that rise but we're trying to keep as many as possible for as long as possible. Ultimately we will lose some as the price rises are inevitable.
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Uhm, no. Using the word 'premium' to just mean 'more expensive' is not correct.
A premium in pricing terms is 'a sum of money or bonus paid in addition to a regular price'. So if the regular price of a 28mm metal solider is a pound or two, and yours cost a fiver, you are charging a premium. There may be people charging even more of a premium than you, but that doesn't mean you're not.
Your argument is that it's not a premium because I am comparing apples with oranges - fantasy miniatures are so much higher quality than historical miniatures that a fiver for a metal fantasy miniature is just the norm or at the low end. So I am wrong to compare a Copplestone or Hicks figure for £1.50, with a 'Kev' figure for £5. Even though they are both small lumps of metal cast in the likeness of a person, one is in a different category from the other. As you can tell, I don't agree with you. In your view, the Kev figure is so far superior and takes so long to sculpt it justifies the premium. In my view, it's not and it doesn't. Like I say, it's utterly subjective. Like others have said - it's worth what you're prepared to pay for it. Which was all the original questioner asked!
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A premium in pricing terms is 'a sum of money or bonus paid in addition to a regular price'. So if the regular price of a 28mm metal solider is a pound or two, and yours cost a fiver, you are charging a premium. There may be people charging even more of a premium than you, but that doesn't mean you're not.
Your argument is that it's not a premium because I am comparing apples with oranges - fantasy miniatures are so much higher quality than historical miniatures that a fiver for a metal fantasy miniature is just the norm or at the low end. So I am wrong to compare a Copplestone or Hicks figure for £1.50, with a 'Kev' figure for £5. Even though they are both small lumps of metal cast in the likeness of a person, one is in a different category from the other. As you can tell, I don't agree with you. In your view, the Kev figure is so far superior and takes so long to sculpt it justifies the premium. In my view, it's not and it doesn't. Like I say, it's utterly subjective. Like others have said - it's worth what you're prepared to pay for it. Which was all the original questioner asked!
If something costs more to produce and therefore ends at a higher price it is 'not' premium pricing. If somethings is artificially increased in price well above the difference in production costs 'that' is premium pricing. What you seem to be using the phrase to mean is simple 'more expensive', that is incorrect.
Trying, imo disingenuously, to categorise them both as 'lumps of metal' is silly.
And just in case someone thinks I'm ducking the question. Yes, I believe you are wrong to compare those two things. Paul Hicks imo is one of, if not the, best historical sculptor in the business. Personally I'd place him above the Perry's. However you have to put historical in there as I wouldn't say the sentence without it.
I have a suspicion that Paul probably could sculpt figures that would put him in the top ranks of non-historical sculptors but I also have a suspicion it would take him longer, therefore cost more and thus wouldn't be anything his normal clients would be interested in.
Copplestone's day has passed. Nothing wrong with that, I assume he's sculpting in the same style because it maintains his audience. But it's oldschool now and I'm not into that.
If you asked me to list the top 20 sculptors in the world none of them would be historical sculptors, also none of them would be able to produce as many figures per week as historical sculptors. Again, not a coincidence.
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So toy soldiers are not like cornflakes but they are like craft beer?
Yes.
Because craft beer is a niche, low volume, relatively high cost and high price product.
Cornflakes are nearer a commodity, high volume, low margin.
The markets are different. Therefore they are marketed DIFFERENTLY.
Miniatures are far more akin to a craft beer, though you might argue that the market doesn't sustain a similar margin.
Your sandwich analogy is again incorrect. Of course if I fancy a bread based snack product I'd happily buy a wrapped sandwich. I may even have the choice of whether it's a simple cheap cheese sandwich or a more expensive prawn salad.
Those products are wrapped appropriately to keep them fresh, and a certain amount of branding is required because they are predominantly impulse buys and are usually fighting for shelf appeal next to other sandwich brands and snack products.
I may spend a little more because I want the prawn. I wouldn't however pay a little more for an equivalent cheese sandwich because the manufacturer has included a helpful 8 page booklet in every pack explaining how to serve the sandwich, what other snack items I'm allowed to eat it with and the rules on how to determine if this cheese sandwich would win in a fight with other sandwiches.
Also miniatures are not sandwiches, because in general terms and I would argue for the vast majority of miniature sales they are not sharing shelf space with other miniatures and fighting for impact and shelf appeal.
These are all very simple market characteristics.
Different products in different markets require different marketing approaches. Some miniature companies (in fact many small companies in general) don't understand this.
The simple bottom line is that this is a barely viable market. It's characteristics are high production cost, niche interest, low volume sales AND high price sensitivity, but with high brand loyalty. That's unusual.
You need to market in a way that meets those needs. Those characteristics are not going to be met through packaging and shelf appeal. Nor are they met by high cost independent brick and mortar stores with all the overheads they bring.
As in all things, we buy what we like and feel we are getting value for. My comments are that often there are companies that are incurring significant additional expense on items that do NOT enhance that value, or that is significantly eroding their margins without adding commensurate value. Those companies would be more profitable if they were to address those issues. They could then chose whether to pass that on to their customers in terms of reduced pricing or more and better product, or in many instances they could take the slightly enhanced profitability and actually make a living.
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I think you will find that the principle difference between historical and Fantasy/Sci-Fi gamers (I apparently have two hobbies now) is that the former have no 'culture' of paying through the nose for expensive overpriced figures. The latter however do have one of 'almost as good as GW, but half the price'.
;)
I'm not convinced by the arguments re pricing and anyone who is running a business and keeping prices down out of the goodness of their heart is doomed to fail. However setting your price to what the market will bear (and indeed the Perrys' market is not Hasslefree's) is quite sensible.
The assessment of whether the price is too high for what you get is for the customer to determine... typically by comparison with competitors. I do wonder what the impact of a 'historical' manufacturer moving into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy field, with the same quality but 'historical' pricing would be.
Not surprisingly the 'historical' company that could have done that chose to conform to the price range of its competition in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy field, when it could have balanced the 'costs' against its bread and butter ranges and sold cheaper. Apparently you can take the man out of GW, but you can't take GW out of the man.
;)
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I think this quite an important discussion to be having, because in general we have a lack of understanding of how much stuff costs or should cost because of the market power of large companies and the way they sell a lot of day to day stuff to us very cheaply, either by buying large amounts of stock or by outsourcing production of said items to another country where the labour is cheaper.
Rather than quibble about a few quid (and in most cases still less than a pint) we should support the creative endeavour that goes into the design and production of games and miniatures, so that the industry we love stays healthy and able to produce what we want.
I would agree that in general that there is a lower standard of finish accepted for historical miniatures because for most people, they are by and large 'game pieces'. In fact I believe this is what the Perry twins have said about their products in the past, even so, they are very nicely sculpted game pieces. However, I would personally pay a few quid more for their products if the the finish were a bit nicer, and I didn't have to spend so much time cleaning them up!!...
In my experience, with miniatures as with most other things, you gets what you pay for- if I buy cheaper miniatures, the quality is usually a bit lower- often the casting, rather then the design, to be honest. I was shocked when I first started buying historicals at the casting quality compared to the GW stuf I had been buying twenty years earlier, but I do think gw prices are too much.
So in summmary- I am happy to pay more for quality, and to keep the industry healthy, and I don't think five pounds for special miniatures is too much in some cases.
Not a fan of resin stuff though.
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I think you will find that the principle difference between historical and Fantasy/Sci-Fi gamers (I apparently have two hobbies now) is that the former have no 'culture' of paying through the nose for expensive overpriced figures. The latter however do have one of 'almost as good as GW, but half the price'.
That's not a stylistic thing. Historical games through the ages have required armies of miniatures. If you made them top quality and charged top dollar you'd be creating a market too small to continue.
Similarly if you decided to make something that only required 10 miniatures, you'd need a way to separate yourself from the existing market. The easiest way to do that, as the customer only needs to buy 10 of them, is to make them considerably better and increase the price.
Also I think if you're making something that's only 'almost as good as GW' you'd better be charging a hell of a lot less than half the price :) GW's strength hasn't been sculpting quality in many years.
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If something costs more to produce and therefore ends at a higher price it is 'not' premium pricing. If somethings is artificially increased in price well above the difference in production costs 'that' is premium pricing. What you seem to be using the phrase to mean is simple 'more expensive', that is incorrect.
Trying, imo disingenuously, to categorise them both as 'lumps of metal' is silly.
Well you're obviously not going to be persuaded, and nor am I. I think you're wrong in your use of the definition, and you think I'm wrong. That's life.
What you're basically saying is that historical stuff is of a lower quality, and that's why fantasy/sci-fi stuff is so much more expensive. What I'm saying is that I can tell that - by and large, for some makers - there's a difference in quality. I just don't think the scale of the differential in price is justified. And that it also comes down to what you like and what you want. You think Copplestone is 'old school' and his day is done. I think that's rot. You think Kev White sculpts are so far superior they justify paying two or three times the price of a Copplestone figure. I disagree. I'm afraid it comes down to subjective taste, choice, and what you're prepared to pay.
I wouldn't ever buy Old Glory figures. I am very happy to pay an extra pound for a Copplestone or Hicks miniature. I can tell the difference.
You see an even bigger quantum leap in quality between a Copplestone or Hicks figure and a Hasslefree figure. I don't. I have many Hasslefree figures. They're very nice. Do I think they're so much better they are worth two or three times the price? No.
Do I care that they take two or three times the hours to sculpt? No. I'm the customer. I judge things objectively on the price and subjectively on the quality and make a purchasing decision or not. I don't care about how long it took to make, how difficult it was, or the maker's circumstances. Not my concern. You wouldn't expect, much less accept that from a manufacturer or trader in almost any other line of business. So why do wargames traders think it should make a difference to their customers?
You're also repeatedly characterising 'historical' gamers as undiscerning people who buy and play with big units of identical rank and file. That's not the way it is with many of the 'historical' gamers on this forum, and it's not the way it is in the world of historical figure manufacturing any more. Hasn't been for a long time.
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I do wonder what the impact of a 'historical' manufacturer moving into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy field, with the same quality but 'historical' pricing would be.
Why would it need to be a historical manufacturer? They don't have magic abilities :)
To be the same quality they'd need to hire better sculptors (or pay the existing sculptors more so they could take longer and produce better pieces). That costs money. As does higher quality moulding and casting.
If you pay more money out for something but don't increase the price the end result usually isn't pretty.
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Well you're obviously not going to be persuaded, and nor am I. I think you're wrong in your use of the definition, and you think I'm wrong. That's life.
It's not 'my' definition, it's 'the' definition of the phrase - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_pricing
What you're basically saying is that historical stuff is of a lower quality, and that's why fantasy/sci-fi stuff is so much more expensive. What I'm saying is that I can tell that - by and large, for some makers - there's a difference in quality. I just don't think the scale of the differential in price is justified. And that it also comes down to what you like and what you want. You think Copplestone is 'old school' and his day is done. I think that's rot. You think Kev White sculpts are so far superior they justify paying two or three times the price of a Copplestone figure. I disagree. I'm afraid it comes down to subjective taste, choice, and what you're prepared to pay.
I wouldn't ever buy Old Glory figures. I am very happy to pay an extra pound for a Copplestone or Hicks miniature. I can tell the difference.
You see an even bigger quantum leap in quality between a Copplestone or Hicks figure and a Hasslefree figure. I don't. I have many Hasslefree figures. They're very nice. Do I think they're so much better they are worth two or three times the price? No.
Do I care that they take two or three times the hours to sculpt? No. I'm the customer. I judge things objectively on the price and subjectively on the quality and make a purchasing decision or not. I don't care about how long it took to make, how difficult it was, or the maker's circumstances. Not my concern. You wouldn't expect, much less accept that from a manufacturer or trader in almost any other line of business. So why do wargames traders think it should make a difference to their customers?
I absolutely accept that in many businesses? Everyone does. How difficult and expensive something is to make is a huge factor in many industries that the consumer is aware of.
If I buy a chair for functions sake only then all I care about is that it's in the shape of a chair and won't all apart. If however I'm looking for a chair that is 'aesthetically' pleasing then I can easily tell that some products have had a lot more hours of work put into them than others and that is reflected in the price point. I'll then subjectively decide whether or not the end result is worth the price to me, but that initial recognition that something took longer to make is not subjective at all.
(Also the newest Copplestone release was £3 for a single figure, not multiples less than £5, that's not even twice the price)
You're also repeatedly characterising 'historical' gamers as undiscerning people who buy and play with big units of identical rank and file. That's not the way it is with many of the 'historical' gamers on this forum, and it's not the way it is in the world of historical figure manufacturing any more. Hasn't been for a long time.
I don't believe I characterised anyone that way. My characterisation is that historical gamers need a lot more minis in general so have different goals in mind when shopping. That doesn't make them even remotely "undiscerning". I am abolutely positive that if some rich guy decided to have one of the world's best sculptors create a thousand different napoleonic figures at the quality of top end sci-fi/fantasy minis and sell them for low end historical prices that they would sell through the roof. If I thought historical gamers were undiscerning then that quality wouldn't make a difference, which is obviously nonsense.
However that company isn't making any money so other than a vanity project it simply isn't happening.
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Regarding premium pricing, IMO it is a definition that can be applied to Hasslefree product because the company is essentially selling the skill of one sculptor.
Given the prior link to Wikipedia, I'll drag out their definition .....
Premium pricing (also called image pricing or prestige pricing) is the practice of keeping the price of a product or service artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers, based solely on the price.[1] The practice is intended to exploit the tendency for buyers to assume that expensive items enjoy an exceptional reputation or represent exceptional quality and distinction. A premium pricing strategy involves setting the price of a product higher than similar products. This strategy is sometimes also called skim pricing because it is an attempt to “skim the cream” off the top of the market. It is used to maximize profit in areas where customers are happy to pay more, where there are no substitutes for the product, where there are barriers to entering the market or when the seller cannot save on costs by producing at a high volume.
Note the references to the lack of substitutes and barriers to entry, both of which are features of being (primarily) the output for and of Kev's sculpting.
Simplistically, it doesn't necessarily matter how much time Kev takes to sculpt a mini but it matters that it has been sculpted by Kev. Personally, I'm a Kev fan and I (generally) buy his ladies to adapt/convert for characters in my historical projects. In fact the 'civilians' for my current GoT project include (I think) 4 or 5 HF. These are all relatively old models for which the sculpting and mastering costs must long since have been covered.
Taking this a stage further, if the argument is that it's not premium pricing because it's the higher cost of Kev's product visualisation, development and mastering that sets the mini at a higher price, then as soon as that product investment is repaid, if there isn't a commensurate price reduction then the product becomes premium priced (because it is priced higher than a similarly moulded mini that contains a similar amount of metal and a similar amount of other variable costs, etc, versus the cheaper comparator that has also had its visualisation, development and mastering costs repaid).
A counter to this argument, and it's essentially the one taken by GW, is that higher operating costs (such as a store network to maintain and build a brand) mean that there isn't the profit margin to counter the tag of premium pricing.
Both theoretically and practically my recent purchases from HF are seen by me as being premium priced, which I'm happy with 'cos I likes 'em an' wants 'em.
:)
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There are several things I think we can all agree on.
1) If your business model requires that you charge "X" for something and people don't buy it, your business model is poor and you should reconsider it.
2) We, as consumers, have the ultimate vote: our dollarbucks. If you disagree with the price of things, don't buy them, and the impact will be felt by the producer.
3) Making toy soldiers is a tough business regardless of the scale of your endeavors.
4) If you can charge a premium and get away with it, good for you. Hell, people pay 10x, 20x, 30x the normal asking price for pieces of clothing because of a stupid name on a label...there's no logic to what people will pay, or how much.
5) If you want to sell massed metals it seems the majority of folks here will pay a "couple of quid", or a "couple of dollars" for a single 28mm human scaled figure.
Manufacturers are well aware they can't force anyone to buy their product. Even if with "we spend X to produce Y, so we charge Z", if the consumer thinks the price is too high, they won't purchase. Likewise as consumers we can't force a manufacturer to price or sell things at a cost we love (short of voting with our money, but shutting down every toy soldier producer is probably not the best option!).
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Regarding premium pricing, IMO it is a definition that can be applied to Hasslefree product because the company is essentially selling the skill of one sculptor.
Given the prior link to Wikipedia, I'll drag out their definition .....
Note the references to the lack of substitutes and barriers to entry, both of which are features of being (primarily) the output for and of Kev's sculpting.
Simplistically, it doesn't necessarily matter how much time Kev takes to sculpt a mini but it matters that it has been sculpted by Kev. Personally, I'm a Kev fan and I (generally) buy his ladies to adapt/convert for characters in my historical projects. In fact the 'civilians' for my current GoT project include (I think) 4 or 5 HF. These are all relatively old models for which the sculpting and mastering costs must long since have been covered.
Taking this a stage further, if the argument is that it's not premium pricing because it's the higher cost of Kev's product visualisation, development and mastering that sets the mini at a higher price, then as soon as that product investment is repaid, if there isn't a commensurate price reduction then the product becomes premium priced (because it is priced higher than a similarly moulded mini that contains a similar amount of metal and a similar amount of other variable costs, etc, versus the cheaper comparator that has also had its visualisation, development and mastering costs repaid).
A counter to this argument, and it's essentially the one taken by GW, is that higher operating costs (such as a store network to maintain and build a brand) mean that there isn't the profit margin to counter the tag of premium pricing.
Both theoretically and practically my recent purchases from HF are seen by me as being premium priced, which I'm happy with 'cos I likes 'em an' wants 'em.
:)
That's a completely different argument, and not much to do with the definition of premium pricing?
Our miniatures aren't priced what they are because they are produced by Kev. In fact if that was the only consideration we 'would' match the Euro style pricing and increase our prices to match the figures done by what I consider to be his sculpting peers of a similar skill level. That 'would' be premium pricing as my primary consideration there would be prestige rather than basic economic factors.
They are priced what they are because I set prices based on a number of factors, all of the important ones being costs to us. Those costs are lower to companies who have different strategies, who employ cheaper sculptors and use cheaper casting methods etc.
Our prices also take into account a reasonable number of years worth of estimated sales. Normally, by the time that has passed, the basic price point has gone up. Which is why our older figures are cheaper (And why when an older figure gets remastered and remoulded it is raised a price point as those costs get folded in). We haven't raised those older prices because, as you mention, a portion of the costs to us have been paid off. We don't need to reduce prices (Although we have done that too, normally by combining into multipacks at a further discount) because the basic price point has moved on and other costs have risen meaning that not increasing the price points too 'is' a reduction.
So again, still not premium pricing.
For the record by the way, my argument is simply because the phrase means something that doesn't apply to us. I wouldn't be arguing if somebody said we were expensive, that's just subjective opinion.
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Why would it need to be a historical manufacturer? They don't have magic abilities :)
To be the same quality they'd need to hire better sculptors (or pay the existing sculptors more so they could take longer and produce better pieces). That costs money. As does higher quality moulding and casting.
If you pay more money out for something but don't increase the price the end result usually isn't pretty.
You know we've moved on from Minifigs and Hinchliffe? You mentioned Paul Hicks and the Perrys earlier - I don't think you need to hire better sculptors than these surely?
I'll accept that there are some awful historical ranges around still (and I wouldn't buy them), but it would have to be a 'historicals' company that is used to selling for less for that scenario to work.
As it stands Captain Blood's 'lead blob' comparison does bear up re:Warlord's own historical versus their GoA range - you have one company making both types at different prices. Also historical figures have to be researched... I don't suppose dwarves get overly criticised for missing buttons and the wrong jackets.
The trend in 28mm is shifting towards 'Sci-Fi/Fantasy' sized 'skirmish' games (Lion Rampant, Flying Lead etc) and has been for a while. The old big games are beginning to become a relative rarity and now tend to be done in 3, 6, 10, or 15mm.
Even 'cheap' 28mm plastics haven't reversed that trend. As I suspect is the case with 'Zombie games' some people preferred to buy a box or two of plastics, for the unit price of four metal figures to create their 'zombie horde'. Whether they went for metal survivors, or went plastic, you are in a far better position to tell me.
A 28mm 'historical' skirmish game and a 'Modern/Sci-Fi/Fantasy' skirmish game use the same numbers of figures, which would imply that individuals are purchasing equivalent numbers of figures per person, yet the historical skirmisher pays 50-25% of the price of the other.
Anyway... I'm off to write an e-mail to the CEO of Ferrari to complain about their unfair pricing structure. Why can't I have one for the price of a Ford Focus?
;)
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I do wonder what the impact of a 'historical' manufacturer moving into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy field, with the same quality but 'historical' pricing would be.
They did: frostgrave soldiers. Brilliant kit, made with the quality of perrys kits - more or less - and i personally (that i'm used to the quality of RGB or Hasslefree) i wouldn't spend my time painting those. To be fair, there's plenty of cheap options for fantasy too, but the difference of the product is evident, as Artemis says.
Of course it's all subjective, but i agree there's no "premium price" or "you're paying for the brand" anywhere. The % margin is quite limited, and probably lower than for historical waves of lead.
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You think Copplestone is 'old school' and his day is done. I think that's rot.
Completely agree with you here. It is obviously a subjective matter but I'd take a nicely sculpted, deep detailed Copplestone model any day.
This has been an interesting thread to read and I hope it continues. It's pertinent to the hobby and I enjoy reading people's opinions regardless of how circular it can be. Getting to know how fellow LAFers feel about various hobby issues is part of the community feel.
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I bought some figures earlier.
Didn't bother looking at the price ;D
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Flash git. ;)
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t's a completely different argument, and not much to do with the definition of premium pricing?
My post was to do with the wider theory of premium pricing rather than the narrow sound bite.
Anyways, premium pricing isn't something to be ashamed of.
If costs are higher so that despite the higher retail price a business has a profit margin that isn't commensurately greater than its competitors who produce similar sized lumps of metal with similar manufactured quality, then - being simplistic - the business is either incurring unnecessary production costs or has relatively high overheads or is investing in brand value/market share, etc, or some other thing that it's customers are paying for and in such circumstances, yep, the tag of premium pricing could be inappropriate.
:)
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You know we've moved on from Minifigs and Hinchliffe? You mentioned Paul Hicks and the Perrys earlier - I don't think you need to hire better sculptors than these surely?
I honestly don't know. I stated earlier that I suspect Paul could match the top sculptors if he put his mind to it and I have the same suspicion about the Perry's. What I do know, is that they definitely couldn't do it in the same time it takes them to produce their current sculpts. I don't need any special info or anything for that, the simple fact is if they could, then they would, as better sculpted minis sell better.
This isn't a diss on historical sculptors, they literally can't afford to take more time as the historical market, by design, requires many more minis to be purchased by each collector. So it's a testament to people like Paul and the Perry's that their work is as good as it is. Skill level, clever use of dollies etc. keeps their time per sculpt down and keeps their pricing at the level that historical companies can afford.
if you asked them to match a sculpt by JAG or Patrick Masson or Mikh or Seb Archer etc. then they possibly could, but they'd likely charge the same as those guys do because it takes them longer and time is money.
I'll accept that there are some awful historical ranges around still (and I wouldn't buy them), but it would have to be a 'historicals' company that is used to selling for less for that scenario to work.
I still have no idea why?
As it stands Captain Blood's 'lead blob' comparison does bear up re:Warlord's own historical versus their GoA range - you have one company making both types at different prices. Also historical figures have to be researched... I don't suppose dwarves get overly criticised for missing buttons and the wrong jackets.
Some would argue that all of the existing artwork for historical stuff makes it easier than having none (or paying to have some done). And Warlord's ranges are different prices because they involved different things. I think someone else said somewhere that GoA required artwork, designers, etc and those costs have to get factored in.
I'd have to go and look at them both to see if there's quality difference, I don't knwo the ranges well enough offhand.
The trend in 28mm is shifting towards 'Sci-Fi/Fantasy' sized 'skirmish' games (Lion Rampant, Flying Lead etc) and has been for a while. The old big games are beginning to become a relative rarity and now tend to be done in 3, 6, 10, or 15mm.
Even 'cheap' 28mm plastics haven't reversed that trend. As I suspect is the case with 'Zombie games' some people preferred to buy a box or two of plastics, for the unit price of four metal figures to create their 'zombie horde'. Whether they went for metal survivors, or went plastic, you are in a far better position to tell me.
A 28mm 'historical' skirmish game and a 'Modern/Sci-Fi/Fantasy' skirmish game use the same numbers of figures, which would imply that individuals are purchasing equivalent numbers of figures per person, yet the historical skirmisher pays 50-25% of the price of the other
I'd need some examples to comment directly but even within the sculpt levels there will be price discrepancies, it's not like we all get together and decide mini prices :) Most of us base them simply on what things cost us and how many we think we'll sell etc. Those prices will be different per company and affected by all manner of things; the country you're in, what skillsets exist within the company and what needs to be outsourced, multiple other variables. And then finally you see what you've come up with, check it against the existing market, tweak if necessary and if that number is too high, you start again :D
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Completely agree with you here. It is obviously a subjective matter but I'd take a nicely sculpted, deep detailed Copplestone model over a skinny, twirly, super action posed hyper detailed modern fantasy/sci fi figure any day. It's not even a matter of price or value, just a subjective personal preference in terms of visual appeal, ease of painting and stylistic preference. The latter style of miniature I describe isn't aimed at any particular sculptor, but the modern hyper-detailed action pose skinny model is quite common across many of these premium ranges. They are nice and lots of people obviously love the style, but I prefer Copplestone to them for sure.
I should probably have addressed it originally, but for the record the above quote leaves out the context. I did not mean to suggest that Mark should just hang up his tools and slope off into the sunset :)
In the context of 'best sculptors in the world' though, which is what it was originally mentioned in, I'm afraid the time has passed where I would list him. He has continued his oldschool style and that rules him out for me. Doesn't stop him being anyone's favourite sculptor but there are always going to be some objective parts of artistic judgement as well as subjective ones.
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Yes.
Because craft beer is a niche, low volume, relatively high cost and high price product.
OK
Miniatures are far more akin to a craft beer, though you might argue that the market doesn't sustain a similar margin.
Wait. What? So they are the same, but they're not.
I do wish you'd make your mind up.
:)
*snip marketing stuff*
Thanks for the explanation of how marketing works.
I'll pop it in the file with my CIM certificates. :)
Not that different marketing techniques was ever really my point.
My point was (and remains) that you don't seem to apply the same rules to your toy soldier purchases that you do to other aspects of your purchasing life.
Your reasons, as far as I understand it, for not buying certain models is because they are doing marketing wrong (and expecting you to pay for it).
Other aspects of your life also expect you to pay for marketing but you don't analyse if they're doing right or wrong marketing you just buy based on the "do I like it, can I afford it matrix".
But we're just going to carry on going round in circles so I think I'll duck out at this point.
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I bought some figures earlier.
Didn't bother looking at the price ;D
Bet you didn't even weigh them either - oh to be the 1% of the hobby ;D
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I still have no idea why?
In trying to not write an essay I didn't make that clear, sorry. :)
A new company with a F/SF background and which has never dabbled in historicals, has a fair idea of what a miniature will sell for in their 'hobby'; after all they have probably bought loads themselves in the past before entering as a commercial concern. They naturally expect that their miniatures will sell within a similar price range... which they certainly will all things being equal.
A historical company which has never dabbled in F/SF has a fair idea of what they will sell for in their 'hobby' for the same reasons as above.
I was merely wondering what would happen if a company entered the F/SF arena and produced figures of comparable quality to what was there already, but at the 'historicals prices' they are used to selling at. Such an event would be unlikely unless they had lived under a rock for thirty years or so, but I do wonder whether there might be a 'price war' as a result?
I'm not saying that would be good thing btw, as the fallout would be both saddening and unhealthy for the hobby. I'm sure we are all aware of what happens on the High Street when one (or more) of the big four open up a hypermarket in or near a town. Being the best butcher in town counts for little in that scenario and surviving to become the only butcher in town is often the best case outcome.
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In trying to not write an essay I didn't make that clear, sorry. :)
A new company with a F/SF background and which has never dabbled in historicals, has a fair idea of what a miniature will sell for in their 'hobby'; after all they have probably bought loads themselves in the past before entering as a commercial concern. They naturally expect that their miniatures will sell within a similar price range... which they certainly will all things being equal.
A historical company which has never dabbled in F/SF has a fair idea of what they will sell for in their 'hobby' for the same reasons as above.
I was merely wondering what would happen if a company entered the F/SF arena and produced figures of comparable quality to what was there already, but at the 'historicals prices' they are used to selling at. Such an event would be unlikely unless they had lived under a rock for thirty years or so, but I do wonder whether there might be a 'price war' as a result?
I'm not saying that would be good thing btw, as the fallout would be both saddening and unhealthy for the hobby. I'm sure we are all aware of what happens on the High Street when one (or more) of the big four open up a hypermarket in or near a town. Being the best butcher in town counts for little in that scenario and surviving to become the only butcher in town is often the best case outcome.
I think there's just some disconnect between us.
I'm missing some reasoning somewhere. You don't need to be into this hobby at all to work out how much minis sell for in either market. I don't sell historical mins but it wouldn't take me very long to work out the price points if I didn't already know them.
The reason that a company hasn't done what you suggest is that its a very, very, bad idea :) It doesn't matter who does it. It certainly wouldn't lead to a price war, it would lead to a bunch of sci-fi/fantasy companies taking bets on how long until the new company goes under ;)
Producing figures 'of comparable quality' costs more money. If you make something that costs more money but sell them at the price point of something that costs less money then that is generally a fast track to bankruptcy.
If anyone 'could' do it, they already would have. I assure you I mean no insult when I say that it's not a revolutionary idea that nobody has had.
The drive to plastics is in fact part of this reasoning. At the moment however plastics, even from China, require a fair investment and the quality still doesn't match top end regular sculpting. That may, or may not, change in coming years. If it does change then 'all' fantasy/sci-fi companies will likely charge less per figure as their costs have gone down.
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As a somewhat side point the the pretty nifty discussion, if Hasslefree ended up making plastic models with the same level of detail and design aesthetics as their metals, then I'd suddenly need to find more hobby budget...
For me, I started wargaming close to 2 decades ago when I was a kid, and I'm still pretty young now. For years and years I was a GW hobbyist and paid their prices - when I grew older and more informed and went to other companies the price difference was an eye opener. Unlike a lot of you all it seems, I still buy Gw products from time to time as I still enjoy the background, aesthetics, plastic kits and so on. However since I was used to that price point for so, so long, other 'premium priced' products, or simply 'expensive' products come across to me as really not.
Sorry to use Hasslefree as a comparison but they're a company I regularly buy from so it suits - £5 to £6 for a model, factoring vat and postage split across the models, is still significantly cheaper for me in a project compared to the hilarious £18+ GW charges for a plastic character these days. So to me at least, Hasslefree is very reasonable with what it charges, even though as a hobbyist I enjoy thinking of 'what if they were cheaper?' Only because I'd like more faster!
Another example that comes to mind of a company trying to price something reasonably and getting smashed in the face with costs is Heresy Miniatures and the dragon of financial doom. The amount of issues and costs that thing incurred was astronomical, compounded with the fact that Andy seems to be some kind of mould and casting press bad luck magnet. At the price point it would (should) have realistically been it still doesn't seem worth making the thing as someone could in theory go out and buy a MacFarlane Dragon of comparable size for a tenth of the cost, and actually have less gap filling to do.
If every company didn't factor all the costs for making something it just seems like the dragon to me - a labor of love that isn't necessarily the best financial choice which end up delaying the expansion of a range and thus bringing sales down even further due to the lack of new items to draw back punters.
I think I made a point there? Honestly not sure really, just typed out what was on my mind after reading all this.
Of course as someone who loves to convert, my skirmish force for a post-apoc game not only has Hasslefree models, but converted bits from other Hasslefree models. My next goal is to make one combining the head and arm of one on to another. Now THAT's where it starts to get pricey.....
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In the context of 'best sculptors in the world' though, which is what it was originally mentioned in, I'm afraid the time has passed where I would list him. He has continued his oldschool style and that rules him out for me.
1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt. I suspect what this really comes down to is that you think your man is no mere putty-pusher like these others, but an artist of true stripe, who deserves to sell for much more. Just good old-fashioned artistic superiority. Yet as you acknowledge, preferences about style and execution are subjective. You happen to think your figures are worth three times a much as a regular miniature because of the quality of the work, the time that's gone into them and the quality of the production process - fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
I don't think they are worth that kind of multiplier. I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.
2. What it costs you to make is not the same as what they're worth on the market. There are obviously plenty of people who are prepared to pay what you say they're worth. And then there will plenty of others who aren't.
3. As far as the semantics go, I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as your final arbiter of all truth online.
If you're charging more for a product than someone else that's selling a broadly similar product, that's a premium. You can argue that the premium is justified on grounds of quality etc, but you can't argue that it's not a premium. The dictionary.com definition of premium (as it relates to price) is: 'a sum above the nominal or par value of a thing' or 'at an unusually high price'. You take your definition, I'll take mine.
4. You're being disingenuous in attempting to justify charging a premium based purely on the idea that it's all about production time and cost. It's also very much about brand. Hasslefree have a great brand and a well-developed brand narrative. It's got lots of different elements (I could spell them all out for you if you like) that taken together make Hasslefree's loyal customers very happy, and make them want to belong to that happy world of 'nice people, cool toys, great service'. It's the brand positioning - tied, I will say it again, to a very good product - that allows the premium price to be charged. Not explanations about how terribly expensive and time-consuming it costs to produce said 'toys'.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about this any more. Nuff said :)
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1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt.
Nobody said you did, the context in question was mine. I brought up whether they were the best sculptors in the business.
I suspect what this really comes down to is that you think your man is no mere putty-pusher like these others, but an artist of true stripe, who deserves to sell for much more. Just good old-fashioned artistic superiority.
No, if I meant that i would have said it. I do think Kev's work is better, but I also think that Kev's work takes longer to produce. One tends to lead to the other, hopefully anyway. If Something takes longer to produce it tends to cost more.
Yet as you acknowledge, preferences about style and execution are subjective. You happen to think your figures are worth three times a much as a regular miniature because of the quality of the work, the time that's gone into them and the quality of the production process - fine. You're entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that figures of a higher quality, that therefore take longer to make and are more costly to produce should be priced higher. That's basic business.
I don't think they are worth that kind of multiplier. I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.
Of course you are, you can prefer whatever you like.
2. What it costs you to make is not the same as what they're worth on the market. There are obviously plenty of people who are prepared to pay what you say they're worth. And then there will plenty of others who aren't.
Again, nobody said what you are seemingly arguing against.
3. As far as the semantics go, I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as your final arbiter of all truth online.
It's not semantics and I can happily point to dozens of other sites explaining what the definition of premium pricing is.
If you're charging more for a product than someone else that's selling a broadly similar product, that's a premium. You can argue that the premium is justified on grounds of quality etc, but you can't argue that it's not a premium. The dictionary.com definition of premium (as it relates to price) is: 'a sum above the nominal or par value of a thing' or 'at an unusually high price'. You take your definition, I'll take mine.
Except you're not. You are trying to parse two different things. Someone charging £2000 for a for a 4k ultra hd 3d smart 60" television is not charging a premium because you can get a 14" black and white crt one from Ebay. You have to compare like to like, and no amount of pretending all figures are just lumps of metal, just like all televisions are just plastic boxes filled with circuits and wiring, will make that true.
4. You're being disingenuous in attempting to justify charging a premium based purely on the idea that it's all about production time and cost. It's also very much about brand. Hasslefree have a great brand and a well-developed brand narrative. It's got lots of different elements (I could spell them all out for you if you like) that taken together make Hasslefree's loyal customers very happy, and make them want to belong to that happy world of 'nice people, cool toys, great service'. It's the brand positioning - tied, I will say it again, to a very good product - that allows the premium price to be charged. Not explanations about how terribly expensive and time-consuming it costs to produce said 'toys'.
I'm not attempting to justify charging a premium price, I was simply pointing out that we are not doing so.
The things that you mention, hopefully, mean that we maintain our customer base, not that we can charge a higher price. Our competitors are 'not' historical companies, they are similarly and higher priced sellers of high quality fantasy/modern/sci-fi miniatures. Our branding, customer service and other extras, again hopefully, make us a more attractive company to deal with but ultimately the customer just has to like the miniatures we make. It's not like someone looking for a female sorceress is going to buy a male orc or a napoleonic drummer from a different company instead because it was a pound cheaper.
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6mm wins out, 96 figures for £5.80 :P
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6mm wins out, 96 figures for £5.80 :P
2mm is cheaper still..... ;D
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A much fairer comparison to the Perry's would be Empress...
Both have highly regarded historical sculptors working from dollies and produce similar ranges yet the Twins charge £7 for 6 minis and Empress £7 for 4... 50% more.
Are Empress charging too much? Or ripping punters off? No. Of course they're not. Empress use, probably, the best contract caster - that costs more. They also have a better quality control.
The sculpts are of a similar level but I've never had to send an Empress figure back or complain about the casting.
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I think there's just some disconnect between us...
*snip*
If anyone 'could' do it, they already would have. I assure you I mean no insult when I say that it's not a revolutionary idea that nobody has had.
None taken and I'm sure batting off several bowlers at once isn't helping. I was very much in the realms of 'if' as opposed to 'could'.
A much fairer comparison to the Perry's would be Empress...
Probably, but then Empress don't have 'in-house' sculptors, so not quite a good comparison in terms of price and outlay, but as close as you're likely to get in terms of quality at least.
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I'm prepared - was prepared - to glance at this topic, move on, and let people pay what they like. But regarding comments about Heresy Miniatures...
I'm afraid I don't know your company or products at all, so I certainly wasn't referring to you as one of 'the cool kids'. I was talking about outfits like Hasslefree and Heresy, who carry a very definite and cultivated 'cool' cachet.
A premium in pricing terms is 'a sum of money or bonus paid in addition to a regular price'. So if the regular price of a 28mm metal solider is a pound or two, and yours cost a fiver, you are charging a premium. There may be people charging even more of a premium than you, but that doesn't mean you're not.
Nope. It's been a while since I was a regular at the Forum of Doom, but even these days it's not difficult to notice that Andy puts a lot of blood, sweat and tears into his business and his minis, and little of it goes towards cultivating some kind of obfuscating image of 'cool', rather towards fulfilling obligations (like the infamous dragon) and keeping HM going in the face of uphill struggles like that.
I'm not sure where you're getting your impression, beyond a cursory glance and a judgement based on that. In Heresy's early days you might have had a point, considering the crudeness of the earliest sculpts and the claims of a 'comic book style'. But over the years Andy has been very open when it comes to the state of HM, and just what he intends for it, and how his prices are about staying afloat, rather than gouging customers with a 'premium bonus'.
Which brings me to a couple of comments that others have made, along the lines of 'in what other market would sellers plead with their customers' and 'if they're having trouble selling with their prices, they should change their business'.
I think the latter's been answered well enough in this topic, at least in regards to some boutique businesses. (TL;DR: it's not so easy to just lower your prices if it happens that you're not actually gouging the customer with artificially inflated prices) For the former, I can only think to say: "in what other market would you have to?"
'Cos while I balk at the price of some sci-fi/fantasy minis myself, I'd side with those who think prices in the wargaming miniature market is being kept artificially low, rather than artificially high. I do see factors like the disparity between historical and fictional sides of this hobby, including the gaming marker vs. character figurine argument; the demand for enormous armies in 28mm and metal; the folk running miniature business as 'non-profit' hobbies; and the quality of the sculpting.
That last one niggles me. Captain Blood says about 'blobs of metal' (paraphrasing) "one company makes one mini, another company makes another mini and charges more. But where's the diff?"
There's a diff! I like to consider myself both a sci-fi/fantasy and historical gamer, and I can despise a 'twirly' model covered in filigree and giant axes as much as any here (and often do); but in looking round historical ranges of periods that interest me, desperately wanting to like everything, I keep running into big or small problems from the other end of the spectrum. Even in relatively new ranges. Clunky, flat musculature (it doesn't have to be 'roided superhero musculature - it just has to be); expressionless faces; swiss cheese mail; that weird effect where it looks like arms are 1/2 - 2/3 the length they should be; flipper hands (I'd say mitten-hands but even mittens have a thumb). All adding up to an effect of being rushed to get an army-sized range out, while cutting costs. Even Perry metals, as well-sculpted as they are, have had complaints leveled at them about rubbish casting, and I've experienced a little bit of that myself.
So I do like simple miniatures; but there's a difference between simple and crude.
And I have to say that when a some of the old-school names were new-school and making their names, some measure of crudeness seems to have become ingrained. There seems to be a fight about Mark Copplestone going on - I immediately think of his range that really made me take notice of him, the 10mm fantasy range. (If you'll excuse the scale shift, though I don't think the problems here are all down to scale) Among other things, I don't like the wolves (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=218) with eyes in their temples and pointy snouts. I don't like the half-orcs (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=222) with weapons and shields that look hurriedly snipped out of plasticard. I don't like the trolls (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=215) with carpenter's mallets, faces like angry marmots (http://74211.com/wallpaper/picture_big/Free-Download-Cute-Animals-Picture-Little-Mouse-is-Angry-Mouth-is-Wide-Open-Saying-Who-Moved-My-Cheese-.jpg), and trademark cookie-cutter musculature down to the half-a-disc pecs. And I don't like the (to be blunt) bloody awful take on a winged beast (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=225). That last one made me run away.
And that's before considering other models and ranges, like the (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=247) giants (http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=245) in the 15mm fantasy range. Boy, could I write another page of rants about those. To cut a long story short, they're the opposite of Arty's wonderings: an historical/oldschool sculptor producing fantasy minis, but with oldschool sculpting and fantasy prices rather than newer 'fantasy' sculpting and oldschool prices. And they're terrible. The anatomy is mostly nonexistent and confused when it's there, and the details crude and chopped-in. In 40mm tall minis.
Some of you consider fantasy miniatures offensive to your intelligence, because of the price compared to that of historical- or older-style models that you see as 'just the same'. I see these as offensive to the intelligence, not because of the price (although: £7, pffft) but because this is the work of someone being puffed as one of the better mini sculptors, for various reasons. (What was that about cachets?) Or at least, whose sculpting is being touted as 'just the same' as other fantasy sculptors.
At the end of all that: like I said earlier, price is something that makes me hmm and haa when I see minis that I like, but the numbers are higher than a few quid. But when I see minis that are needlessly bad for various reasons, then price is not a factor at all.
You couldn't pay me to take them.
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Gosh, just, I mean, WOW! Really?
There are so many points here that I just want to hit with a wet kipper, but I would be here all day and smell rather bad by the end of it. Erm, where to start.
1. I didn't say he was one of the 'best sculptors in the world'. I said I don't think a mini sculpted by Kev White is worth two or three times the price of a Copplestone, Hicks, Perry, Owen or Saleh sculpt.
From what I can see the average Hasslefree figure price is around the £4.50-£5 mark. When you look at the individual prices for Copplestone they are £3.00-£3.50. Then you have to factor in that a lot of the Copplestone range is what? 15-20years old now at least.
I actually like Copplestone too. I have both Hasslefree and Copplestone in the same force, but mainly because I use Copplestone for rank and file and Hasslefree for the more individual characters as their quality, IMHO, stands out more.
I actually prefer Copplestone's work. And I'm entitled to my opinion.
Of course, no one is questioning that. No one can make you like or prefer something. But I think we are talking about something different here in terms of preference and more about technical finishing.
Now, I don't like using silly analogies as they tend to be misleading, and it always seems to end up with cars but; Someone may prefer a VW Beatle to say a BMW whatever series. The BMW may well be the more accomplished and technically better car but you still may prefer the look and feel of the Beatle. However, that isn't going to change that the BMW is generally recognised as the superior car and has the price tag to reflect that.
As Artemis has clearly said, this doesn't make Copplestone or any of the other names mentioned worse than anyone else in terms of ability, it just means that the product that you can buy is comparably not as good technically.
If you are being properly neutral I would advise that you look through what painters pick out to enter into painting competitions, generally they are miniatures that are more accomplished sculpts that can showcase their skills in the best possible light.
Finally, the whole "cool" thing. A lot of sci fi and fantasy stuff is now heavily linked to and inspired by popular culture, movies, music, comics, fiction novels, art etc. And whilst at one point in the past being a Geek was to be outcast, to live on the fringes of society, something to keep a secret in case of embarrassment or that you didn't openly share. These days, being a Geek is just another sub-culture and one that has actually become more desirable in recent years, or at least acceptable.
So I am really sorry if I think my toys are cool, and I like to buy toys that I think are cool, and if they tick more boxes for me I am prepared to pay a little more for cool . . . .
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I like painting Hasslefree stuff...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/General/HarbyII.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/HF/Grimdalf.jpg)
I also enjoy painting Heresy miniatures...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/HF/Boris800.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/General/DrFrankenmuller.jpg)
And I think Copplestone sculpts are also wonderful to paint...
(http://www.orctrader.co.uk/Images/BOB/SD2.jpg)
As for price. Well, I recently paid over £10 with postage for a single Copplestone sculpt. (From abroad, limited availability. I want to paint it so, for me, a tenner is worth it.)
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Just wading in once again, using Orctraders excellently painted miniatures for illustrative purposes, I can't see how people could suggest that the Copplestone sculpts are any less nicely sculpted than the others. They are in my eyes decently proportioned and detailed AND they average out as £1.20 for rank and file or £1.62 for characters, officers etc. which is stupidly cheap even for historicals.
Now compare that with Hasslefree which are around the £5 mark but anywhere up to £12+ (and what really irks me is the prices on the website don't include VAT which I think is misleading).
Or Heresy whose average human sized figure seems to be around £4.
Most other historical manufacturers tend to sell rank and file around £2.50 but can still manage to get nicely sculpted officers and characters and keep them under £4.00.
AND most are cast in metal rather than shitty resin or resin plastic polymers.
As has been said you pays your money you takes your choice but I have to say I firmly agree with Captain Blood on this.
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Yeah, people really are not getting it.
Rank and file - if you are going to compare multipacks of rank and file then do that. If you are going to compare individually priced miniatures, do that. But to compare one to the other is really daft. Copplestone has the collection part of his range and the characters that one would say are most like Hasslefree's are £3.00-£3.50.
Rank and file wise, look at the Hasslefree unit packs you'll find they range from £2.00-£3.50 per model, so again, slices your comparison down quite a bit.
As for Orctrader's examples - they are all brilliant examples of his painting on miniatures. And of course all of the miniatures look fine. But that's not what is being said here. And where people keep missing the point.
Compare Harby (The Hasslefree miniature in a longcoat) to the Copplestone officer. One is clearly more accomplished technically than the other - the drapery on Harby is not only fantastic but it marries with the movement suggested in the pose and the body structure the clothing is covering.
The Copplestone officer is far more caricature. You can tell the basic body work and musculature isn't as in depth as Harby's - just look at the shape of that torso for example.
Now, as I said earlier, you may prefer that in a miniature, you may also prefer to shop with a smaller budget - and this is all fine, no one is begrudging you that, but I am really struggling to see why people are unable to take a step back for a second and see the sculpt, see the actual attention to detail captured in those miniatures and see past their wallet etc.
Lastly, why the hell are people complaining about the price of a miniature that they are then saying they would never buy because they prefer Copplestone's style?!!! That's like complaining about the price of a luxury yacht whilst stating you are happier in a small canal barge and would never want a yacht anyway!!!
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Far too much angst in this thread....
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Far too much angst in this thread....
Yeeeeeeep.
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I painted a figure today :D
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I'll pay what the manufacturer wants as long as it doesn't pushes my 'too expensive' , 'not worth it' or 'can't afford it ' buttons.
Being an (almost exclusively)historical gamer I'm sometimes stunned by the prices some fantasy figures command. But to each his own. And yes, we historical gamers usually look for a small army or at least a skirmish warband, so multiples of. I personally find manufacturers such as the Perry's , Empress, Gripping Beast, Redoubt and even Foundry amongst others, to have reasonable prices, or at least prices I can afford. Again, your mileage may vary.
I'm not sure I would still buy in the same quantities if these prices doubles. Or I might even simply drop a whole project.
On the other hand I would be quite willing to shell out say 10-15 £ for a single figure if it was for example a limited edition or long OOP and if it would REALLY complete or complement any of my collections.
Only recently I've driven over 600/1200 clicks to get to a show on the off chance they might still have one of their previous free figures available for sale. Well, not just for that particular figure and it was a great show, but it was one of my incentives.
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Far too much angst in this thread....
It went pretty sour from last I checked in. Thanks to all the sculptors who make me little people to paint.
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Far too much angst in this thread....
I wouldn't have put it as politely as that.
I think this thread has well and truly run it's course. Whatever your point of view it has been well and truly made now and the thread has now drifted well of course with heated discussion as to the merits of different sculptors work.
Time to let it lie and move on now perhaps?
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Far too much angst in this thread....
. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about :D
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. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff...
That's why I posted some. ;)
Here's another.
(http://www.orctrader.co.uk/Images/Barbarians/Asarlai-the-Dark.jpg)
Is this a Copplestone sculpt? I'm sure someone told me it was. Or perhaps a Saleh?
Anyway, I haven't read all of the postings here, but I was detecting a "this sculptor is better than that one..." theme.
Personally, I only paint well sculpted miniatures because my time is too precious to paint crap. Some don't like Bob Murch style. Whereas I really like his style and love to paint his stuff. As many have said, it's all a matter of personal taste. I love the Front Rank style. Some appear to loath it. There are many HF figures I'd like to paint. There are other's I wouldn't even if they were given to me free. Just what I like and what I don't.
As for the pricing of figures I personally don't think I can add anything useful to the debate. ::)
Anyway, I'm off to look at R10 of the LPL now. (My entry is Heresy stuff.)
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. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about :D
That seems to be the increasingly popular feeling here, although it does feature 'Adventure' in the title and not 'Gallery'. Indeed this is the 'Wargames and Hobby Discussion Board' but I sense there are quite a few people here who haven't gamed for years, if ever.
What was once a broad church that accepted everyone, seems (to me at least) to be shifting increasingly towards an elitist club of painters, producing 'art' with no gaming context whatsoever.
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. . . and not enough pictures of painted stuff, which is what I thought the LAF was all about :D
For that purpose, I'd suggest visiting the LPL forum instead of a pricing topic in "general discussion"...
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That seems to be the increasingly popular feeling here, although it does feature 'Adventure' in the title and not 'Gallery'. Indeed this is the 'Wargames and Hobby Discussion Board' but I sense there are quite a few people here who haven't gamed for years, if ever.
What was once a broad church that accepted everyone, seems (to me at least) to be shifting increasingly towards an elitist club of painters, producing 'art' with no gaming context whatsoever.
I think it's a nice community and I enjoy reading opinions of the fellow LAFers, so I feel this sentiment among some that "you don't post painted work, you add no wealth to the forum" is a bit harsh and might go a way into making people feel unwelcome. As you say, this is the General Wargames and Hobby Discussion board, but already a there's a lobby to shut this thread down because some people think it's a tired subject and that people are getting heated (which I haven't noticed at all in all fairness; not compared to heated discussions on other forums!).
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As you say, this is the General Wargames and Hobby Discussion board, but already a there's a lobby to shut this thread down because some people think it's a tired subject and that people are getting heated (which I haven't noticed at all in all fairness; not compared to heated discussions on other forums!).
To be fair, the only unpleasant aspect of this thread for me is how some people are here pretending to explain how other users' business work to them.
For the rest, i think it's a discussion that ANYONE into the miniatures business should read.
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Indeed... I see people getting passionate about things that are important to them, but the discussion is civil and people are taking the time to explain their views. I've gained from this thread, so it's informative too.
Admittedly there are a lot of words, punctuation and tricksy stuff like that, but it's not joined-up writing, so everyone can follow along if they want to... or not, as they desire.
It is the 'discussion board' after all and not the 'STFU and look wot I painted board'. ;)
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the 'STFU and look wot I painted board'. ;)
I can't find that board, could you link it please? ;)
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What was once a broad church that accepted everyone, seems (to me at least) to be shifting increasingly towards an elitist club of painters, producing 'art' with no gaming context whatsoever.
Perception is an odd thing, I get the feeling that the shift is towards long threads of opinion/argument/pontification, and fewer threads of painting and AARs which is what drew me to the LAF in the first place. Each to his own I guess. :D
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What was once a broad church that accepted everyone, seems (to me at least) to be shifting increasingly towards an elitist club of painters, producing 'art' with no gaming context whatsoever.
On the contrary I think there is far more posts with talk and waffle these days than pictures of anything painting or gaming related.
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I'm happy that there is plenty of both! :)
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On the contrary I think there is far more posts with talk and waffle these days than pictures of anything painting or gaming related.
An interesting point. :D
I sense some frustration on the part of those that prefer a visually rich board of wip and finished minis, terrain and games, which it seems is starting to draw some frustration on the part of those who like to discuss.
As a generalisation, I'm a 'doer' rather than a 'talker' so I'm here mostly for the interesting pictures of stuff that people are up to. Sure, there's some discussion that I find interesting and useful so I'm all for a bit of compromise. That said, and despite having posted in it, threads like this one seem to me to detract from the general invite and ambience of the forum.
With particular regard to 'elitism' much like 'premium pricing', I have absolutely no problem with it.
That said I don't see sneering 'elitism' at LAF. Sure there are 'elite' and there are those that 'aspire to be elite' and I think the former are very encouraging of the latter. I joined LAF with virtually nil ability at 28mm and my skills have come on a long way thanks to the constructive interest of others. However, the journey has been a predominantly visual one as when it comes to improving one's skillset it's far more useful to 'show' progress.
:)
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I've no problem at all with painted minis, terrain building and all the other aspects, exceptional or otherwise... or indeed discussion, otherwise I would certainly be in the wrong place and hobby. I also wouldn't even try to argue that the bulk of members are not helpful, caring and sharing individuals.
I like to consider myself one of them and I've lost count of the times I've dug out obscure details, photos and information, for members, who have failed to find what they need to 'paint something' or 'play something'... yet if any of you cast your mind back to the 'Snob' thread and a comment or two in this one; as I don't paint (by circumstance), I apparently don't add value to the forum and drop into the 'talker' category (as Steve conveniently phrased it for me - no offence taken btw ;) ).
Anyhow we're drifting off topic, for which I share a fair bit of the blame... Price of Miniatures was it? :)
I tend to follow Willie's philosophy, I might pay 'over the odds' (in a historical price context) for that 'special figure' and I don't see anything amiss with the price difference between Empress and Perry and happily buy from both. Prices of F/SF don't really concern me in the main, although I admit I've mentally 'ouched' at the prices of some modern adventurers... but bought them anyway.
Like almost everything out there, you buy or you don't, based on your perception of an item's value, your call.
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Having followed the discussion over the last few days, I don't want to close it down as of now, but I am worried that it is indeed running towards a circular argument, when it is not detouring. ;)
I do want, however, to put a definitive stop to this "Elitist" angle. The last time I allowed a discussion to run that way, it ended up in a dozen pages of unproductive argument, and I am not willing to repeat this.
As to facilitate a return to the original topic, I would like to posit the following summaric thought which might help put some order into the various trains of thoughts leaving at various stations at differing speeds... ;)
Does it actually make sense to compare miniatures out of different "market segments"?
Personally, I do not consider F&SF and Historicals different hobbies, but rather diverging branches or segments with more points of overlap than difference. Hence, I question the substitutability of historical vs. F&SF miniatures, since the major difference, i.e. genre essentially prevents or limits the usability of either product in the other segment.
Generally, I consider the general style and genre conventions applying to the F&SF segment to be rather well-established, and possibly codified by Games Workshop's dominance in the late 1980s and 1990s.
If you compare the major players in the F&SF range, I would not consider Warmachine miniatures much different from GW's, the defunct Rackham's, or Heresy, Hasslefree and Otherworld at the "smaller" part of the spectrum, except in the specific "world style" that defines the respective miniature ranges - the marketing concepts of the larger players (GW, WM and Confrontation) used to be very similar (although I still take some offence at "play like you got a pair", thank you very much), due to the "game system".
In contrast, the smaller companies do not (have to) support a defined system by their product release and are therefore, more or less, "blanket-targeting" the non-system gamers, miniature collectors and maybe role-players, and some system gamers which might be interested in using the odd model for variety.
Within the historical market, various ranges are, again IMHO, interchangeable as well, but to a greater degree than in the F&SF market due to a more atomistic situation when it comes to rules systems, and the fact that there are less "system approaches", although this has changed tremendously in the last decade or so (FOW, BA). Essentially, since the stylistic conventions of the specific genre aspect of a given range are less of an issue, customers are probably more inclined to mix and match, provided other aspects fit their requirements (size, heft, general sculpting style to provide for sufficient compatibility). Thus, more competition due to the greater substitutability of the product.
In short, I would suggest it might be more appropriate to consider miniature companies focusing on a specific market segment rather than making overall market segments. To use the analogy of cars, I would not compare passenger cars to lorries due to their different primary use, but lorries with other lorries and passenger cars with other passenger cars.
The "market sub-segments" I would suggest would be System and Non-System Games for both the F&SF and the historical market segment, so a broad categorisation of two market segments composed of two sub-segments each. I posit the idea that there is more overlap/transfer from the system towards the non-system sub-segment rather than vice-versa, due to the greater strictures the system approach places on the specific design aspects of the figure ranges.
Personally, I buy figures on their individual appeal, and am usually fine with paying a bit of a "premium" provided the figure serves my thematic purpose and is "worth it" concerning value-for-money and production quality.
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Spot on.
And for what it's worth, I think you are right with 'systems'. I also think you are seeing a lot more rules being written independent of any miniature maker now - Osprey seems to be releasing them at a vast rate of knots. This perhaps more so in SF/F than with historics.
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I've had the impression recently that there are an awful lot of bijou games with rules and figures because of Kickstarter (most of them seem to be 32-35mm as well ::) ).
cheers
James
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I also think you are seeing a lot more rules being written independent of any miniature maker now - Osprey seems to be releasing them at a vast rate of knots. This perhaps more so in SF/F than with historics.
The tradition with historics was that rules were written with no association with a miniature maker. However with the advent of Flames of War and the Warlord Games school of rules, the Games Workshop 'we offer everything you need to play our games' model has entered the arena.
While they haven't completely dominated the hobby thus far, they are certainly the biggest names in terms of WWII gaming... although not necessarily offering the best rules or value for money.
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So, let me step back and make a last approach to what determines where I stand on buying a miniature based on its price without specific names or numbers?
Simple really.
If I was a painter, especially a really good one, which I am not, then I think the price would be less of a factor because the painting/presentation seems to be the pleasure for a painter and the value for the buyer but that is only speaking theoretically on my part because I am not a painter except by accident.
For my purposes, does it contribute to an army/warband/adventure party (to repeat wargamer much more than painter here) I working on? Here key factors are scale/size, era/genre, sometimes weapons (pike units should have pikes, which is not all that common for dwarf armies.) If it doesn't apply to an Army, warband, or party than no matter how inexpensive/expensive an individual figure is priced has no bearing on my buying (see below.)
Is it in my budget? I generally have a range that I will pay for OOP/in production; army member (duplicate poses acceptable to necessary * depending on what army,) individualized members of a warband/adventure party; and character/command figures but (see below) this is more like guidelines.
Mass armies in Historical/Fantasy/VSF/SF (hmm, do I have any of the last?) have less emphasis for me in the appearance of the individual figure than skirmish and RPG forces. Can I identify the purpose of the unit has more importance than are all the buttons on the waistcoat correctly sculpted.
* For army units as opposed to warbands or smaller, based on the era, it may be more scenic to have duplicate poses for units that were disciplined linear or formed in action.
KEY: I base my buying budget on the army and the unit more than the figure (which is an indirect factor but I try and not get my 19th century ideas of what is the right price for a metal toy affect my buying in the 21st century.) If I budget (figure scale independent) for a 20 figure unit to cost $45 than figures in the $4 range is not going to work, whereas if I decide the 20 man unit unit can cost $100 than a $4 per figure cost is well within budgetary constraints and is not a matter of concern. Large numbers of figures, in larger sized figures especially, in a unit or army start being self limiting due to price of the unit which moves a lot of my stuff to 15mm/6mm/3mm for armies in conventional actions between WSS and 1900 just because of the size of the units. Again the price of the army/unit is the driver here for me.
In sum, I don't think I can say that there is a "right" cost for an individual figure without looking at my goal for the army/unit (WSS infantry Regiment, Rohan cavalry unit, Goblin Horde, disciplined dwarf shieldwall unit of spearmen, Dungeon crawl adventuring party, etc.,) and the uniformity of the figures - I can buy bags of WSS infantry probably at a lower per figure cost but Adventurers should be unique (well aside from twins/triplets, don't ask,) and I do believe the more poses involved might cause an increase in individual figures.
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I like the "system" and "non-system" labels when it comes to discussing price.
I think in the past many folks have used the "Sci-Fi and Fantasy" label to refer primarily to games like Warhammer, 40k, Warmachine, etc that are in a system that requires/encourages you to use their brand of minis which are almost always notably more expensive per fig than most (though by no means all) historical minis.
The dominance of such "system" games in the Sci/Fantasy realm not only affects those games, but seems to lead to an acceptance by fans of the genres that even generic Sci/Fantasy figures will be somewhat more expensive than their historical counterparts. There have always been plenty of budget Sci/Fantasy minis but the proliferation of more mainstream generic Sci/Fantasy rulesets and the ever increasing number of affordable figures has led to the point where now the assumption that sci-Fantasy minis will be necessarily more expensive is much less correct.
Hence, defining whether a figure is part of (or a second-party product related to) a system or not may be a better distinction.
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Where there is a valid reason for setting a 'price', as for example has been demonstrated re: Hasslefree by Artemis Black, I'd go along with that. However with the 'system game' that is Warlord's Bolt Action there would seem to be evidence of at least one 'fast one being pulled' as we say in the UK.
Warlord sell a 'ruined house' (see here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=87670.msg1113319#msg1113319)) as part of their range... not only does it 'appear' to be a pre-existing Italeri kit at 1/72 (as opposed to the much larger '28mm' of the BA range), which retails at £14.40 + £2.67 postage in UK (https://www.emodels.co.uk/italeri-1-72-wrecked-house-6161-plastic-model-kit.html), but re-packaged it retails for £16 +£5 postage in UK (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action-terrain/products/wrecked-house); that is one expensive cardboard box!
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I know of two different bijou game kick starters run by two different people that are charging above the odds for figures, rules etc "because we can". People will buy them as well...
cheers
James
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Warlord's postage is ridiculous. I just ordered three decal sheets and three tiny vehicle stowage packs - weight: next to nothing. Postage cost: Five pounds.
Nuts.
True postage cost, probably a pound.
Foundry used to get regularly pilloried for their P+P charges. This is much worse.
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Where there is a valid reason for setting a 'price', as for example has been demonstrated re: Hasslefree by Artemis Black, I'd go along with that. However with the 'system game' that is Warlord's Bolt Action there would seem to be evidence of at least one 'fast one being pulled' as we say in the UK.
Warlord sell a 'ruined house' (see here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=87670.msg1113319#msg1113319)) as part of their range... not only does it 'appear' to be a pre-existing Italeri kit at 1/72 (as opposed to the much larger '28mm' of the BA range), which retails at £14.40 + £2.67 postage in UK (https://www.emodels.co.uk/italeri-1-72-wrecked-house-6161-plastic-model-kit.html), but re-packaged it retails for £16 +£5 postage in UK (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action-terrain/products/wrecked-house); that is one expensive cardboard box!
Same as the Italeri Walls they resell at a higher price. At the end of the day, they are business and you don't have to buy the product from them.
Mike
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Warlord sell a 'ruined house' (see here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=87670.msg1113319#msg1113319)) as part of their range... not only does it 'appear' to be a pre-existing Italeri kit at 1/72 (as opposed to the much larger '28mm' of the BA range), which retails at £14.40 + £2.67 postage in UK (https://www.emodels.co.uk/italeri-1-72-wrecked-house-6161-plastic-model-kit.html), but re-packaged it retails for £16 +£5 postage in UK (http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action-terrain/products/wrecked-house); that is one expensive cardboard box!
I raised this in the other thread and I'd bought the Warlord variant. It's therefore worth me emphasising in this thread that I had no issue with the price (I knew what it was before I paid, no one made me do it, the responsibility for my ignorance of a cheaper alternative was my own, etc) BUT I was frustrated and disappointed by the apparent re-scaling as it was only useful to me as parts rather than as a complete building.
TLDR: The price was the expected price and so surprise-free, the scale wasn't the expected scale and so surprise-laden
NB: edited for gibberish
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Interesting thread. A few thoughts:
What's the value of a miniature as a source of entertainment? Hasslefree models are quite expensive, for example, but then how many hours of enjoyment does each provide on the painting table before it's even used in a game? Paying a fiver for several hours of recreation strikes me as quite cheap compared with many alternatives (renting a film, going to the cinema, going to the pub). I think there's a instructive comparison to be made with books. If you buy a book for £8 or £10, you do so because you're expecting to be diverted for several hours - around the time that many would take to paint a "special" miniature. I just bought an early-80s Citadel orc for £4 or so on eBay; it'll provide me with at least two and a half hours of relaxation before it gets deployed in SBH, DR or Mayhem. As a nice Perry sculpt with a blank shield and lots of room for freehand ornamentation, it will provide more entertainment than a current GW orc (for example).
In general, I think there's a correlation between the quality of a miniature, its cost and the entertainment it affords on the painting table. It's by no means a hard-and-fast rule, though: lots of current GW stuff is horribly over-ornate (as well as horribly overpriced), which spoils the painting experience, and some very simple, or even crude, miniatures can be great fun to paint.
On historical vs fantasy/sci fi: Westfalia Chris's comments make a lot of sense. I see the "system" miniatures as an aberration. When I was involved in gaming as a kid, everyone used whatever miniatures they liked, mingling manufacturers freely. My childhood Warhammer orc armies had Citadel, Dixon, Asgard, Ral Partha, Grenadier and god knows what else mixed within the same units. And that was the norm. The second edition of Warhammer even suggested that people could play with 54mm figures (Airfix and the like). If you look at Bryan Ansell's chaos army from the Warhammer Armies book, there are plenty of non-GW miniatures therein. But you look away for a couple of decades ...
On figure quality: I don't think sculpting quality is a strict linear progression by any means. Look at the continuing popularity of Nick Lund's miniatures. Some are very crude. Some are less so, although they're rarely "sophisticated". But a high proportion of them simply look good on the tabletop. Many of his orcs, for example, have a certain sculptural power that makes them effective, even though their tusks betray their putty origins all too readily.
You can also get a sort of highly effective minimalism in miniatures. I'm currently painting some of the old Vendel orcs. They're terrific - though their open hands could be faulted (Vermis ...) - but very simply done. The faces are just superb and brim with character, but they're done in a very simple, deft manner. There's something of the "economy of line" that good artists often employ. A few suggestive strokes can be superior to a huge amount of detail - and especially so when the goblins are only an inch or so high! I think they're some of the best goblins I've seen, yet they're much more reminiscent of simple historical wargaming figures than of other contemporary fantasy equivalents. And they only cost about a quid each.
The Vendel orcs (and dwarfs) are a good example of fantasy done successfully in the historical manner. The EM4 plastic dwarfs are another (I'm less keen on the orcs, though people have done interesting things with them on this forum).
One thing that has clearly bridged the (unnatural!) divide between historicals and fantasy is A Song of Ice and Fire. Look at how people are using Perry, Gripping Beast and Fireforge miniatures to create fantasy armies for games set in Westeros. And that brings me to another point: if you want your fantasy worlds to be gritty and plausible, it's hard to find knights that look better than the Perrys' plastics - and it's certainly hard to find them cheaper than 36 for £20!
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You make alot of good points, but this made me chuckle a bit...
On historical vs fantasy/sci fi: Westfalia Chris's comments make a lot of sense. I see the "system" miniatures as an aberration. ..
.... But you look away for a couple of decades ...
I don't deny that there are a good number of non-system fantasy/SciFi options today (that's primarily what I game with), but "System" has been the norm and majority in Sci-Fantasy minis since the mid 80's. If we say that sci-fantasy minis have been present in alarge way in the hobby since the mid/late 70's, then for well over 2/3 of the time that we've had Fantasy/Sci minis, continuing through to today, "System" miniatures have been the norm.
That's a bit more than an aberration. That's a norm.
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You make alot of good points, but this made me chuckle a bit...
I don't deny that there are a good number of non-system fantasy/SciFi options today (that's primarily what I game with), but "System" has been the norm and majority in Sci-Fantasy minis since the mid 80's. If we say that sci-fantasy minis have been present in alarge way in the hobby since the mid/late 70's, then for well over 2/3 of the time that we've had Fantasy/Sci minis, continuing through to today, "System" miniatures have been the norm.
That's a bit more than an aberration. That's a norm.
It's quite possible, though to see it as an aberration from a much longer-established norm in wargaming as a whole. And fantasy gaming began some time before specifically fantasty miniatures were available. Plenty of Airfix Romans saw service as orcs ... :)
Also, let's dissect "system" a bit more. Most fantasy and sci-fi miniatures are bought for use with a specific system, no doubt. The market shares of GW and Privateer Press ensure that. But are most fantasy miniatures used with the system they were designed for (if any)? I doubt it. It's impossible to be sure, of course, but I suspect that, with a few obvious exceptions, most miniatures end up being used in a variety of games. Are most people who buy from Reaper playing Reaper's in-house game (whatever that is)?
Then you have all the historical miniatures that are used in fantasy games. How many Goths have stood in for Rohirrim over the past half-century? How many Saracens for Haradrim? And how many historical men-at-arms end up fighting in the Seven Kingdoms?
When I played Warhammer, everybody I knew had a melange of manufacturers in their armies. If you wanted an orc for Warhammer, and Grenadier made some cheap or interesting ones, you bought them. Did such practices die out? There seem to be lots of non-GW miniatures on ebay that are based (and sold) for use with GW games.
And then there's one very large branch of fantasy wargaming: RPGs. The use of miniatures is widespread, though not universal and often occasional. But there's very little system-specific preference there.
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Wow, we've had very different gaming experiences. In the past 20 years of gaming in and next-to 40k, Warhammer and Warmahordes players, I'd say that at least 95% of the figures I've seen on the tables have been from the company that made the game, and of the remaining 5%, at least half are aftermarket figs and parts made specifically to be compatible and used with a specific System.
Durring those years, most of the players I ran into were either unaware or completely uninterested in the alternate sources of models and even other games. I can't speak to LoTR and other fantasy games because they constitute such a minute slice of of the gaming market round here.
I'm sure there was alot more mixing of games, figs and rules pre-warhammer, but since -about 25 years ago- GW became preeminent in USA SciFi/Fantasy gaming System-adherence has been the norm. Even the large-ish games that have tried to compete with GW have used the same System mindset and marketing. Void, Vor, Warzone, Celtos, Chronopia, etc.
As For RPG's that's a whole different ballgame. There's never really been the expectation in that realm that one will use one company's miniatures.
I do see more folks being open to alternate figure sources and more folks are breaking out of the systems. I think Mantic and Osprey have had a big part in this. Still, if you head to your local FLGS and look at the wargames being played, 95% of what you will see is System-compliant gamers. Even at a massive convention like Adepticon which has thrown it's proxy/alternate model rules wide open the same percentages persist.
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Wow, we've had very different gaming experiences. In the past 20 years of gaming in and next-to 40k, Warhammer and Warmahordes players, I'd say that at least 95% of the figures I've seen on the tables have been from the company that made the game, and of the remaining 5%, at least half are aftermarket figs and parts made specifically to be compatible and used with a specific System.
I am missing those last 20 years, of course! The years of the aberration, if you will ... ;)
But I think we're really saying the same thing. My point is that it used to be the norm in fantasy wargaming that you used whatever miniatures were suitable. And - in the UK at least - that was still the case right the way up to the early 90s. I don't recall ever meeting any Fantasy Warlord players, but those Nick Lund Grenadier orcs were ubiquitous in the late 80s and early 90s (and there seem to be plenty around now - they're still "in print"). I'm pretty sure that most of them were used for Warhammer.
During those years, most of the players I ran into were either unaware or completely uninterested in the alternate sources of models and even other games. I can't speak to LoTR and other fantasy games because they constitute such a minute slice of of the gaming market round here.
Yes - that's exactly what I mean by the aberration. This trend seems to me to be completely wrong-headed (as I'm sure you agree). I find it rather baffling.
I'm sure there was alot more mixing of games, figs and rules pre-warhammer, but since -about 25 years ago- GW became preeminent in USA SciFi/Fantasy gaming System-adherence has been the norm. Even the large-ish games that have tried to compete with GW have used the same System mindset and marketing. Void, Vor, Warzone, Celtos, Chronopia, etc.
I don't think it's "pre-Warhammer" that things were different, but in the later iterations of Warhammer. I mean, just look at what was in Bryan Ansell's own legendary Warhammer army (http://eldritchepistles.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/bryans-cabinets-of-chaos-mystery.html#comment-form). That army featured in the 3rd edition's Warhammer Armies, while the second edition actually suggested the use of non-Citadel figures. And then there was the official Warhammer poster showing Minifigs and Ral Partha stuff alongside Citadel.
So when did the rot (as I see it) set in? I think it probably comes from 40K, where there were far fewer alternative ranges, more innovative concepts and - increasingly - the "pay to play" idea.
As For RPG's that's a whole different ballgame. There's never really been the expectation in that realm that one will use one company's miniatures.
Yes. It is very different, but it is part of fantasy wargaming in the broadest sense - and part of the "norm" (including historical wargaming). The assumption that whatever miniatures look the part will do is the natural one, which is why it's the norm in wargaming as a whole.
I do see more folks being open to alternate figure sources and more folks are breaking out of the systems. I think Mantic and Osprey have had a big part in this. Still, if you head to your local FLGS and look at the wargames being played, 95% of what you will see is System-compliant gamers. Even at a massive convention like Adepticon which has thrown it's proxy/alternate model rules wide open the same percentages persist.
Yes, I agree. And it's dispiriting. I don't know if it's so true in wargaming clubs, where historical gaming is more of an influence. There have long been LOTR games, for example, that use historical rules (and Hyborian games too, of course, going back to Tony Bath). And it's very difficult to say what goes on in games played on dining-room tables! Is it fair to say that very many - or even most - fantasy-miniature blogs show a cheerful disregard for "system"?
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Yes - that's exactly what I mean by the aberration. This trend seems to me to be completely wrong-headed (as I'm sure you agree). I find it rather baffling.
I don't personally like the system-adherence approach (definitely wrong headed!), but the more time I spend in the hobby the more I understand it. There is something to be gained in a system where everyone uses the same rules, and the same figures. It's not as fun, IMHO, but it's almost necessary in a system as complex as 40k (so many rules, codices, etc) that things be as uniform as possible if two strangers are to be able to sit down in a FLGS anywhere in the country, play the game and know immediately what your opponent is putting down as soon as it hits the table.
I think alot of folks consciously or unconsciously buy into the idea that part of the very high cost of 40k minis is buying into a system with a huge built-in community that virtually guarantees the highest chance of finding a game. Of course it also helps that 40k and Warmachine are the only two miniatures lines that you're virtually guaranteed to find in any game stores, even those that only dabble in minis.
Warmachine has it's own twist. One would think that in a smaller-count wargame where there aren't alot of unit variation/options it would be easier to have proxy and alternate models, but there seems to be even less interest in alternate models in that gaming community. Maybe the high percentage of unpainted models (I typically see well less than 50% painted at the FLGS's I visit) is simply a reflection of less interest in the modeling side of things?
I'd be interested to hear some Warmachine player's opinions.
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Warlord's postage is ridiculous. I just ordered three decal sheets and three tiny vehicle stowage packs - weight: next to nothing. Postage cost: Five pounds.
Nuts.
True postage cost, probably a pound.
Foundry used to get regularly pilloried for their P+P charges. This is much worse.
Just think what it's like for us Yanks. Thank the Lord that Miniature Market has started carrying Warlord's products.
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I saw a box of six (plastic!) Guild Ball figures today at the local gaming store...$84...prices to even make a GW gamer blush. lol
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@elbows
Yeah, those numbers are even uglier in Canabucks but they seem to be selling very well in spite of it ($98 for a second season set :o). Not to me though.
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I saw a box of six (plastic!) Guild Ball figures today at the local gaming store...$84...prices to even make a GW gamer blush. lol
You sure they were Guild Ball? All the Guild Ball minis I've seen were metal. The ones I've got awaiting paint certainly are, and I've seen pretty much the whole line at shows ???
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You sure they were Guild Ball? All the Guild Ball minis I've seen were metal. The ones I've got awaiting paint certainly are, and I've seen pretty much the whole line at shows ???
All guildball are metal but they are very pricey. (£9 for a small metal otter!)
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Urm ... no, a load of the Guild Ball stuff is resin (plastic?).
http://store.guildball.com/resin-miniatures
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Yep, there is a whole line of "starter" boxes which appear to be resin/plastic and are $30-35 for three figures or the six-pack for $84...accompanied by a whole bunch of metal blisters. That's way too pricey for my blood, but I know people love the game.
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I remember being appalled when citadel raised its price per figure to 40p (Stirling) and then wasted some of that money on stupid blister packs!
On the whole I don't mind paying for quality and service. I'm aware of the need of small businesses and artists to make a living and recognise the amount of talent and effort needed to make my toys. I'm also very aware of the costs of volume and recognise that much smaller volumes are more expensive per unit.
I do object to a number of pricing practices from many companies.though. Here are a few.
1) packaging. You're charging me for cardboard plastic art work graphic design etc that I'm just going to discard
2) multiples. You decide to sell things in multiples rather than ones. I very very often don't want the same numbers you think I do. You argue multiples makes it cheaper because you don't have to package singles... I refer you to the cause of the problem in item 1
3) lack of imagination. Too many very talented people copying what others do at equal or higher prices! you want me to spend £5 on a figure? Then do something worth it, not just an oversized, charicatured knock off of what everyone else is doing.
4) fluff. I'm interested in figures. I have an imagination. I don't want to be paying more for figures because you decided you had to put a card, pamphlet, background book or British library in the blister pack. I certainly don't want several copies because I wanted three figures.
5) don't make me pay for how you run your business. I want to buy figures. I have no interest in your painting competition, the several hundred stores you keep open and the thousands of "helpful" staff. You're making me pay for those things in your product pricing and I'm not interested in them.
6) god complex. Ok, you can sculpt, you're good at it, you deserve to make a living. That doesn't mean your first four sculpts deserve a £100,000 Kickstarter and the opportunity for you holiday in the Bahamas twice a year.
Brandlin, that was perfect! ;)
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I'm not sure I can agree with the fact that it's perfect.
Look at some of the popular games - take x-wing for example (ignore that they are prepaints). You buy the ships you want, they come with rules and additional cards that can be used with other ships etc.
I have no issue with people selling miniatures as part of a game system with the rules/stat cards in with them. When you buy a product you are buying the product. If you want just parts, you go direct - if they offer that service.
It's like going to buy a car and stating you don't want all of the fancy stuff and just want the engine and the chassis. The reality is most dealerships are just going to look at you like you are a weirdo and point you in the direction of contacting the manufacturer directly or a mechanic who maybe able to order in the parts.
This just smacks a lot of people wanting to have their cake and eat it.
Companies with stores - well there is only really GW. Lets slate off the company a large chunk of us found to be the portal into the wargaming world. Those chaps who have worked and do work in them who deliver a good service (mostly) to new wargamers. Sure, as a grumpy older wargamer no longer interested in their systems you may not wish to pay their prices but then this is why there are the various online and in my case, local discounters you can buy from with a 10-25% off the RRP.
At the end of the day, the only thing that will change the pricing strategy of a company is how well something is selling or not. So, if you don't like it don't buy it - whatever your reason is. If the company sails along nicely and continues to grow in stature and popularity then the problem clearly isn't their pricing strategy is it?
To be honest, this sort of discussion does nothing but ever draw divisions within wargaming. There is this sort of strange attitude that all miniatures of a similar size and scale should cost the same amount of money because they use the same amount of material etc.
Yet we have seen someone say that packaging multiples is about saving on packaging - it really isn't. In instances where miniatures are packaged in multiples it is to do with moulds, not saving on packaging. If you have five different sculpts x3 in one mould, you NEED to sell those five in a pack. If you sell them as individuals you can end up with multiples of one that is not as popular as the others. This can end up being more costly than packaging, and you see it mainly in the historical side of the industry. There is no reason to package miniatures together other than this if they are different poses etc.
Sorry but all I can do is end up shaking my head.
I started out in the mid '90's, when you could buy a terminator for £2.50 from GW. This was 'pocket money' back then. Now, a single miniature at GW is £8-9+, that's not pocket money to me. It has changed, but then so is who they are aiming their product at, and it's not people who have a tight budget. Should I moan? No, I take my business elsewhere. To one of the many very good boutique businesses. And like many independent businesses across many industries, they don't make mega-bucks. At times they can struggle, near collapse or even disappear. I like to think I am buying more than just a little bit of lead.
I am buying a piece of workmanship - a craftsman. In that sense, just like any other, sculptors are the main cost behind any piece of work. Their time is the most precious thing. The material nearly always is the least costly. The process can vary depending upon how much human interaction is needed (metal Vs resin).
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I started out in the mid '90's, when you could buy a terminator for £2.50 from GW. This was 'pocket money' back then. Now, a single miniature at GW is £8-9+, that's not pocket money to me.
In case anyone else is wondering, £2.50 in 1995 equates to £4.33 in 2015
Source: Bank of England Inflation Calculator
:)
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Packaging...
Sure in the now online shopping world, packaging isn't as big a selling factor as it used to be when you could only buy your toys from the pegs and shelves of a store.
Back then, your eyes would get caught by the flashy box that was covered in impressive art depicting its (static) content in glorious dynamic and often explosive battle.
When I started in this hobby, I was more fascinated by the brands of that had spectacular box or card art than the ones who were simply bagged with a stapled piece of paper.
Maybe I missed some incredible minis because of that, but those paints made me dream about epic battles and adventures, more so than the simple pictures of painted minis.
I understand that as we grow into this hobby, we know the various brands and games and don't even look at the card art anymore, but it still has an important place as it identifies the brand for new comers.
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Yet we have seen someone say that packaging multiples is about saving on packaging - it really isn't. In instances where miniatures are packaged in multiples it is to do with moulds, not saving on packaging. If you have five different sculpts x3 in one mould, you NEED to sell those five in a pack. If you sell them as individuals you can end up with multiples of one that is not as popular as the others. This can end up being more costly than packaging, and you see it mainly in the historical side of the industry. There is no reason to package miniatures together other than this if they are different poses etc.
Sorry but all I can do is end up shaking my head.
I was being a good boy and trying to stay out of this, but seeing as it was me who said that we use multiples to save packaging costs, I suppose I ought to respond.
Your assumption may be correct for some (especially budget historicals), but you ain't right when it comes to us, and many other minis businesses I know. We use multipacks because customers asked us to; they wanted starter warband sets they could buy, without having to be familiar with the rules. All our minis are in separate moulds; we don't combine multiple types of figures into one mould.
When we do a starter warband pack with 7 minis in it, that directly saves us 6 blisters, cards and foams - a £2.58 saving we can pass straight on to the customer.
I agree with everything else you said though! :D
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Yes, well, you are obviously clever and made sure that you put each sculpt in it's own mould. :D
Thing is, would I be right in saying you sell both? I should imagine the people that do as you do and do a mould for each individual sculpt may well offer it in both singular and multi-pack form.
I was more jabbing back at Brandlin's seemingly generic hatred of multipacks where he cannot buy the models separately in the singular form - which in most cases will mean they share a mould.
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Yeah, we sell singly mostly - the multipack thing was really an afterthought, to be honest! ;)
The problem I've found with multiple figures in each mould is when a cavity or two gets torn or doesn't cast well, and it screws up the whole pack. I've sculpted for 15mm historical guys who just supply 8 random figures per pack, so you get a handful from the mould spin, regardless of what they are. Sometimes you get lots of repeats... but selling them singly just isn't worth the hassle, given the low price historicals fetch.
So really, I agree with you on that as well! :D
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I started out in the mid '90's, when you could buy a terminator for £2.50 from GW. This was 'pocket money' back then. Now, a single miniature at GW is £8-9+, that's not pocket money to me.
I also started GW in my early teens, probably around early 90's. I got £1.00 a week pocket money, and it would therefore take me 12+ weeks to get one 5-man squad of Terminators (...weren't they £15 or more a box?) No paint, no brushes, no glue. Just the models. To actually buy enough GW figures to play even small games with, I had to rely on birthday money and trades with friends. Even so, games like 40k and WHFB were outside my budget for a looong time.
Nowadays, a new-style plastic Terminator box is around £30 RRP (or £6.00 per model). That's a big price in real-terms, in a material that is mere pennies compared to making them in metal (and despite the upfront mould costs to GW).
Of course, the new Terminators are plastic, posable (...sort of), and come with a decent number of weapon options.
However, they are also about 40% of the points they used to be, so you need about twice as many to play 40k with as before. Yep, that means that to get a real equivalent in a game of 40k, the actual £/game value of the models has gone up by 200% (or from about £4.50 to £12.00 in real money terms).
And that's a big part of why despite liking a fair few models (and nowadays owning a lot of GW stuff from over the last 25+ years of collecting), 40k and GW in general is just turning people like me off. I apologise for singling out GW (I know there's a thread for these sorts of posts normally), but it is relevant to the discussion of "the price of a model" - they are a giant of the industry, and consequently what they can sell models for sort of sets the benchmark for what other sci-fi and fantasy models will sell for (whether you like it or not - miniature manufacturers of all sizes are businesses after all).
The problem I've found with multiple figures in each mould is when a cavity or two gets torn or doesn't cast well, and it screws up the whole pack.
I can imagine, and I think that's why a lot of companies (including GW, Corvus Belli, Reaper, and others) do the same thing as you. Then again, they usually do sell single-model packs too, despite some only being available as sets.