Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: jim rae on June 07, 2016, 01:13:13 PM
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Since joining this site, i've been greatly inspired by the ideas about modeling and gaming GoT. Every episode now, i've been looking for inspiration (the nuddy ladies apart) and it seems to be coming thick and fast.
I'm now trying to tie down some concrete ideas to produce a few Units beginning with the Stark-Allied houses. I've also had some thoughts on (currently) un-aligned units such as the Dothraki.
So, beginning with House Stark's Allies, what kind of period of tropos am I looking at? 13th Cent. infantry?
All ideas welcome!! :)
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So, beginning with House Stark's Allies, what kind of period of tropos am I looking at? 13th Cent. infantry?
All ideas welcome!! :)
Welcome to the party, jim rae!
First, it's whatever YOU want it to be. That's the fun of it. To my imagination, there is a hierarchy of styles and armor corresponding to what I believe about the relative wealth and sophistication of the great houses. It runs, roughly, like this:
The wealthiest - Lannister and Tyrell (maybe Targaryen) - are late medieveal with Lannister more towards gothic plate and Tyrell more Italian Renaissance
The Middle - Tully, Baratheon and maybe Arryn - Mid-to-late Hundred Years War
Bottom - Stark (Early HYW to Barons' War) Greyjoy (Normans to Barons' War) Martell Reconquista Spain with some Moorish flair.
I also mix in styles across these to reflect diversity of wealth within any retinue. As well as kitbash models to make them less recognizably historical - where possible. (Captain Blood does this best.)
Me, I'm not much interested in the Wall or Essos at present. I'll leave that to others.
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Wot DG said... we are of like mind in our visualisation of Westeros, but that doesn't mean another concept isn't as valid. That is the joy and freedom of fantasy after all...
Undeniably, the richest will have the best and most modern kit, right down to pointy sticks and not much else at the bottom end of the scale. Given the rich seam of available figures out there it seems only fitting to demonstrate regional differences with different armour styles.
In the politics and powerplay etc GRRM draws from the WOTR period, but his florid references to 'halfhelms' and helms' and use of mail and shields suggests a looser more Hollywood-based pseudo medieval look where anything from around 1200-1400 goes...
If you want to stay true to the books, this extends to the far extreme of the Thenn having a bronze age culture, with little good steel available beyond the wall save what can be plundered from raids or looted from Night's Watch. Purists therefore tend to rail at the series depiction of them with ferocious steel axes. The only thing the series has got right is their bloodymindedness and their reputation among the rest of the Free Folk.
If you want to stay true to historical medieval parallels, militia will have little in the way of armour, and have cheap weapons like spears or pikes. They will be stiffened by better equipped veterans, and household troops. Foresters etc. will probably have self bows and make good scouts and skirmishers. Unit leaders and commanders will have better kit, with varying quality armour and helmets... DG and I decided to confine crossbows to special units among the richer houses so for my part they only appear in the Riverlands and further south. Plus they tend to be temperamental in cold/wet climates.
If you want to stay true to the conceptual work of the series, then others on the forum have done a fine job of realising this, but the degree of customisation required shows how off-historical the conceptual designers have strayed...
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I think it's all about getting the "feel" right, hitting on the general characterization of the Houses/factions that George describes in the books. As others have said, what that means specifically is up to you.
For example, I personally reject the idea that the North is some all-furs and chainmail primitive place, or that the Greyjoys are a definite match for Vikings and don't ever wear any plate or more modern armor at all. Outside of the Wildlings (and even they do some trading, just not on a scale to get much in the way of better arms and armor), all of Westeros is engaged in a lot of trade. While places will still have budgetary differences and thus equip themselves only as much as they can afford, it makes little sense to me that Robb Stark would have the mail hauberk of a middling Norman knight while a middle-of-the-pack Vale house knight will be fully clad in plate armor.
That being said, I think the general rule of "simpler" and yes, some furs and mail is important to nail the "feel" of the North. Likewise, plate and more complex armors are good to hit on the flavor of the southern houses. I quite like DG/sukhe's general guidelines and they are roughly equivalent to what I will be following, myself.
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I also go with the "Southerners" having better arms and armor. I am using WotR figures for my Lannisters and future Tyrells. But the North is not that far behind. I will be using Perry HYW for them. Heck, the Manderly's are one of the richest families in Westeros. Their knights would have topnotch armor and gear! If I could only find a Sydney Greenstreet figure in full plate! Heck, just adding fur capes and more quilted armor may be enough to mark them out as Northerners, it's cold up there! Just a note if you are thinking about using Fireforge minis, the Templars have mantles on the their cloaks and the Tuetonics have fur trim on their cloaks.
As for actual Houses/allies, look to to the Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods and such. Some great color schemes and heraldry to do there. Note to self, Hornwood lord on Pulp figures moose-back...
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Welcome to the party! I can't say much more as the others already said. For me the world of Westeros is a place were anything medieval goes so to say. So combine as you see fit and remember the different climates we have in Westeros when thinking about someone from the north ( Furs because it is cold) or the south(more arabic grab at least for me).
Anything goes !! Why not using greek hoplite figures for the unsullied for example.
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My problem is probably that of many others. I've seen the series but also read all the books. Therefore, (at least to me) there's a kind of preconception about the major houses. This is somewhat affected with the (superb) visualization in the TV series.
I agree very much with the comment of Hupp n at em, regarding Greyjoy - my thoughts are those of much later Dark Ages possibly going into 12th/13th century?
Now, Wildlings would be kind of fun to do - I love the designs done in the series which is almost modern urban camo...
Martell, is, IMO, one of the more attractive options.... :)
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The kitbashing is the big attraction to me. Historical plastics are so cheap that it's very doable to just buyt some different kits and have a go. I do think the Perry Agincourt boxes must be the best starting point available right now that (having not used any of those yet myself....).
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Now, Wildlings would be kind of fun to do - I love the designs done in the series which is almost modern urban camo...
That's just snow! :D ;)
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:)to me. Historical plastics are so cheap that it's very doable to just buyt some different kits and have a go. I do think the Perry Agincourt boxes must be the best starting point available right now that (having not used any of those yet myself....).
I haven't used the French Agincourt sets yet, but i'm working my way through the English boxes of both Agincourt and 100YW they really ARE the best out there. I've also done some of the Gripping Beast Dark Ages sets which are a great source of weapons and chainmail figures.
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After I made the silly decision to make all the Houses, I wanted to differentiate them stylistically. Fortunately, the mass of plastics out there is the great enabler. Rich houses? WotR by Perrys. Other Houses? Perry HYW, FireForge and Conquest with Frostgrave thrown in. Dorne? Gripping Beast Arabs with FireForge sergeants for the "stony" Dorne. I picked up a bunch of Warlord Celtic sprues durin their sprue sale at Christmas for hill tribesmen, along with hoplites and Spartans for Unsullied, and 3 scorpions for my Dorne (these may get cannibalized for the ships I just ordered) FireForge Mongols will form my Dothraki when I get there, and a bloody mix of everything for the Free Cities. (I really want to paint up some Braavosi ships with purple sails!) I know some of these choices may seem odd to some, or not quite canon, but they will look great on the table. The Rule of Cool says do it.
Another way of looking at the choices is through the spectrum of "perception". Matthew Parkes, in his painting articles in Wargames Illustrated (they have been collected, you can buy a copy now or download it from the site or on your tablet, I'll wait, it is a stonking collection, and only $10!) pointed out that wood grain would not be perceptable on 28mm models. He paints in the grain however, because the grain tells our brains "that is wood". The show does the same thing, separating houses stylistically so they are easy to differentuate. While Dorne may not be "Arabs", using those models tells our brains "southern warriors from a hot, dry climate". Throw in a distinct look for a change of painting techniques, and they do it for me.
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After I made the silly decision to make all the Houses, I wanted to differentiate them stylistically. Fortunately, the mass of plastics out there is the great enabler. Rich houses? WotR by Perrys. Other Houses? Perry HYW, FireForge and Conquest with Frostgrave thrown in. Dorne? Gripping Beast Arabs with FireForge sergeants for the "stony" Dorne. I picked up a bunch of Warlord Celtic sprues durin their sprue sale at Christmas for hill tribesmen, along with hoplites and Spartans for Unsullied, and 3 scorpions for my Dorne (these may get cannibalized for the ships I just ordered) FireForge Mongols will form my Dothraki when I get there, and a bloody mix of everything for the Free Cities. (I really want to paint up some Braavosi ships with purple sails!) I know some of these choices may seem odd to some, or not quite canon, but they will look great on the table. The Rule of Cool says do it.
Another way of looking at the choices is through the spectrum of "perception". Matthew Parkes, in his painting articles in Wargames Illustrated (they have been collected, you can buy a copy now or download it from the site or on your tablet, I'll wait, it is a stonking collection, and only $10!) pointed out that wood grain would not be perceptable on 28mm models. He paints in the grain however, because the grain tells our brains "that is wood". The show does the same thing, separating houses stylistically so they are easy to differentuate. While Dorne may not be "Arabs", using those models tells our brains "southern warriors from a hot, dry climate". Throw in a distinct look for a change of painting techniques, and they do it for me.
Yeah, I occasionally get annoyed at some of the silly costuming choices on the show, but they are only silly if I'm looking at them as actual medieval combatants. Their real job is to differentiate and communicate allegiance and identity to the average show viewer, as well as subconsciously aid the characterization of these different groups. In that respect, I think they are quite effective.
Also, sorry to sidetrack, I'm curious how the Conquest figures match up with the other plastics. Are you mainly using their archer set, or the mailed Normans as well?
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Also, sorry to sidetrack, I'm curious how the Conquest figures match up with the other plastics
I have the Conquest archers built, undercoated but not painted yet. IMO, they good, but a little too richly dressed for what I wanted (I needed suitable archers for Saxons). That aside, they're nicely proportioned and as a useful bonus, come with a choice of composite or longbows.
Quality is excellent - build very nicely
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I have the Conquest archers built, undercoated but not painted yet. IMO, they good, but a little too richly dressed for what I wanted (I needed suitable archers for Saxons). That aside, they're nicely proportioned and as a useful bonus, come with a choice of composite or longbows.
Quality is excellent - build very nicely
Hmm the composite bow option is actually quite attractive, as I plan on kitbashing my plastics for Frostgrave to have more of an Asian feel. Thanks!
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I go against what most people here seem to be doing, and I DON'T use different styles of armour and such to differentiate houses and wargear. I guess its because at heart I am more interested in historical wargaming than fantasy wargaming.
I don't like the idea that every house consists of a lord and an army of clones in identical armour. And the idea that every house has a distinctive style of armour to mark it out. This is of course how TV shows do things, and I completely understand the reasons.
But what appeals to me much more is the idea of Westeros consisting of a huge number of houses great and small, which in times of conflict are banded together under certain 'great houses'. And it's not cut-and-dry. A certain knight may be sworn to one noble house, who in turn is sworn to the Baratheons. But he is married to a Frey, and obviously has close ties to that house and the Riverlands.... And perhaps his mother was Hightower, so he has family in The Reach.... When Lord Baratheon goes to war, what does he do? Where are his loyalties?
The books really do this well. An army doesn't consist of mindless clones... It consists of individual knights and lords with their retinues, all of whom have family ties through blood and marriage across Westeros.
I can just see it now.... Ser Boris of Three Trees has decked himself out in his latest armour, proudly wearing his heraldry on his surcoat and shield, and goes to join the army of his lord Roose Bolton. But he is then told to take all that kit off and put on this silly uniform. Lord Bolton thinks it will make them look really menacing and evil. Aren't these newly desgined helmets awesome? Who cares how practical they are, no other house uses these new helmets! No arguing back, he's gotta wear the new uniform! Lord Bolton doesn't care who he is. He is now a Bolton soldier, not Ser Boris of Three Trees. Poor Ser Boris.....
Anyway, I like to think of all of Westeros having the same level of arms and armour technology. For me, I love the 15th century, so that is the 'era' I have gone for - mid to late 15th century... Full plate armour, longswords, poleaxes, pikes, etc....
It's true poorer regions (Iron Islands, Three Sisters, certain areas in the North) might not have access to or funds for the latest fashionable kit, and might have a more rag-tag appearance with older armour pieced together. Though I am against the idea that the whole North is backward compared to the south. As someone else already pointed out, what about White Harbour?
Now admittedly I feel the 14th century would be a better fit for the how things are portrayed in the books. There is a lot of talk of shields, and both plate and mail armour. I think the era of Crecy and Poitiers would really be perfect.... I wish the Perrys would make an extensive plastic range for that era!
But I like the 15th century best, so that is what I've gone for (helped by the brilliant and extensive Perry Miniatures 15th century range). Notably my Westeros armies have no shields. And my knights are more likely to wield poleaxes rather than swords.
To mark different houses, I rely on banners. So infantry from one house look much the same as infantry from another house... it's the flags above them that mark out their allegiance. A good thing about this is I don't have to paint up a whole new army for every house, just a few new flags!
Well, that's another option for you if you like the historical elements of this great fantasy series :)
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To mark different houses, I rely on banners. So infantry from one house look much the same as infantry from another house... it's the flags above them that mark out their allegiance. A good thing about this is I don't have to paint up a whole new army for every house, just a few new flags!
While I'm in the distinctive look for each major house camp, your approach is certainly the fastest path to tabletop gaming! Being less than halfway through distinct 4 retinues. :)
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A good discussion... And welcome, jim rae, to the innermost circle of discerning LAFers with a Game of Thrones habit :D
I agree with much of what's been said above. I now deploy my usual treatise on this subject - sorry if you've heard it before...
In a nutshell...
George RR Martin essentially describes a largely homogenous, medieval knightly culture which stretches from one end of Westeros to the other.
They all use medieval style heraldry, they all live in castles, wear plate armour and mail, train from boyhood with swords, take part in tournaments and jousting.
Martin's world as written is essentially an American 'Renaissance Fayre' style, semi-idealised, non period-specific vision of medieval Europe. So the Starks are not hairy, grungy half-barbarians, the Ironborn are not Vikings, and the Martells are not Arabs. The Seven Kingdoms are all, broadly, medieval Western European.
Martin certainly portrays other distinctive and recognisable non-European medieval cultures - Arabic, Steppe nomads, African etc. But they are all in Essos.
As mentioned in another thread a couple of days ago, take the example of Dorne / Martell...
HBO and other illustrators have them cast as denizens of Al Andalus, if not outright Arabic. But look at a map of Westeros. The lands of House Tyrell are adjacent to House Martell. Same latitude and neighbouring cultures. In fact the Tyrells' lush island vineyards of The Arbor lie further south than most of Dorne. And yet in all the illustrations in books and games, as well as the HBO series, the Tyrells are resolutely portrayed as fair-complexioned Western European knights in shining armour in their verdant and fertile farmlands and orchards. With Martell - right next door - invariably portrayed as an exotic, dusky-skinned, pseudo-Saracen culture living in a sweltering semi-desert.
Doesn't make sense.
It's just an easy way of forcing some kind of radical visual difference on the main houses, because it's more interesting that way for art directors. And from HBO's point of view, for the undiscerning TV audience, a way of helping them remember which house is which. The books certainly suggest some cultural differences from house to house, region to region, but these have been blown out of all proportion by most interpreters, and in particular by HBO of course.
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With Martell - right next door - invariably portrayed as an exotic, dusky-skinned, pseudo-Saracen culture living in a sweltering semi-desert.
Doesn't make sense.
The geography may not make sense, but the Martells aren't Andals or First Men. They are Rhoynar - from Essos. So the whole Al-Andalus vibe does kind of fit them, from a certain point of view.
Edit: (And the lorebook, part written by, and certainly authorized by George himself, does describe Dorne as a land of "sweltering heat, sandstorms and scorpions", and depicts the Dornishmen as looking pretty like Moors or Andalusians. So I don't think we can lay the blame entirely at HBO's door.)
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Agree with the substance of Captain Blood's and charlie_'s perspectives above AND I'd gently reiterate that it's a valid design choice to make each house distinctive for tabletop gaming for reasons not dissimilar from those of tv art directors - ease of recognition, dramatic flair, making each new house retinue interesting to work on. So many ways to go with it, which is the beauty of it. Not to mention license to acquire, and mix minis from across periods and sources. Wheeeeee!
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If you are looking for inspiration Jim, a good source is the 2 art books published by Fantasy Flight Games. Full of lush art from their card and board games. They can be found on Used on Ebay for savings (that can then be used for minis!)
link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Art-of-George-R-R-Martins-A-Song-of-Ice-Fire-Volume-2-Fantasy-Flight-G-/191874111310?hash=item2cac96974e:m:mZ-bfdF7cjuOwAw8KLFSjwg)
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While the Rhoynar are an important aspect of Dornish culture as it is at the time of the books, Dorne was a desert and there were Dornishmen long before Nymeria lead her exodus to end up there. There are three roughly identifiable groups in Dorne (ignoring the Orphans of the Greenblood as they are by far the smallest in population, and aren't really fighters):
1) Stony Dornishmen. These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne. These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.
2) Sandy Dornishmen. They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated. They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.
3) Salty Dornishmen. The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture. Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?
Interesting couple of things to add after double-checking myself on the wiki...
"Dornishmen prefer round metal shields, spears, short throwing spears or double-curved bows. The Dornishmen are famous for their sand steed-riding light cavalry, and use their double-curved bows skillfully from horseback. Because of the heat, they wear lighter armor than in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms made of metal disks, sometimes decorated with copper, sewn in the manner of scales on the leather. To allow themselves to fight in the burning sun of Dorne, they wear brightly colored flowing robes covering the metal parts of their armor."
"George R. R. Martin has acknowledged that historical influences for Dorne include Palestine, Spain, and Wales."
Maybe they are more Andalusian than we thought? I do agree that is a synthesis of things rather than pure imitation though.
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If you are looking for inspiration Jim, a good source is the 2 art books published by Fantasy Flight Games. Full of lush art from their card and board games. They can be found on Used on Ebay for savings (that can then be used for minis!)
link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Art-of-George-R-R-Martins-A-Song-of-Ice-Fire-Volume-2-Fantasy-Flight-G-/191874111310?hash=item2cac96974e:m:mZ-bfdF7cjuOwAw8KLFSjwg)
I believe one of the artists for their Westeros CCG has a lot of his work in viewable galleries online, I can't find the link at the moment but his name might be Tomasz something?
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I think you are referring to Tomazs Jedruszek Link (http://www.morano.pl/main.php)
He is a major inspiration on my figures! I love his Lannister box art, and his Greyjoy art is very nice, showing later period armored raiders.
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Edit: (And the lorebook, part written by, and certainly authorized by George himself, does describe Dorne as a land of "sweltering heat, sandstorms and scorpions", and depicts the Dornishmen as looking pretty like Moors or Andalusians. So I don't think we can lay the blame entirely at HBO's door.)
These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.
IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.
While the Rhoynar are an important aspect of Dornish culture as it is at the time of the books, Dorne was a desert and there were Dornishmen long before Nymeria lead her exodus to end up there. There are three roughly identifiable groups in Dorne (ignoring the Orphans of the Greenblood as they are by far the smallest in population, and aren't really fighters):
1) Stony Dornishmen. These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne. These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.
2) Sandy Dornishmen. They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated. They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.
3) Salty Dornishmen. The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture. Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?
Interesting couple of things to add after double-checking myself on the wiki...
"Dornishmen prefer round metal shields, spears, short throwing spears or double-curved bows. The Dornishmen are famous for their sand steed-riding light cavalry, and use their double-curved bows skillfully from horseback. Because of the heat, they wear lighter armor than in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms made of metal disks, sometimes decorated with copper, sewn in the manner of scales on the leather. To allow themselves to fight in the burning sun of Dorne, they wear brightly colored flowing robes covering the metal parts of their armor."
:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it... ::))
"George R. R. Martin has acknowledged that historical influences for Dorne include Palestine, Spain, and Wales."
Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points lol
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Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points lol
I think it is kind of fitting. The immigration bit fits Wales... also the isolation-marches-bit.
Palestine maybe because it has been a melting pot for such a long time?
There were certainly a lot of cultures that came through Palestine and some of them never left.
Could also be the relation with the crusades...European style knights meet Arabian desert folks.
Spanish... well, that one is obvious with the Umayyad establishing their Al-Andalus...
And the fact that the Tyrells are next to Dorne and depicted as "European"... how about seeing them as Italians?
I mean... that is something taken from reality.
While a large part of Spain looked and acted very differently from the rest of Europe, Italy was "European" and its knights were "European", despite having a similar climate as Spain in some parts...
Climate alone certainly doesnt make you look or act Arabic.
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These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.
IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.
:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it... ::))
And from HBO's point of view, for the undiscerning TV audience, a way of helping them remember which house is which.
Yep that's me: undiscerning! :D Seriously though, it's not a historical production, it's fantasy. Similar points could be made about LotR etc. That said, I don't think it unrealistic for organised factions to be differently uniformed and equipped: yep, sure, they take it to an nth degree (the Lanister and Bolton helmets kill me... :o) but even Celts, Saxons and Vikings had differences in appearances. If those differences weren't extrapolated by wargamers then a game of Saga might only be possible by painting the minis of one side red and the other blue!
Anyways, in both your posts Richard you rather usefully observe the two extremes, those that like it simple (some might say spoon-fed) .... By and large, TV viewers...... And those who over-egg the canon (some might say obsessively) .... By and large, Book readers.
My own take is of course a contradiction, in that for the appearance of my mini factions I analyse and extrapolate the TV production with the enthusiasm of a Book reader. lol
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On the whole I'm on Captain Blood with this. There is so much 'semi-canon' and 'non-canon' material out there. When you actually comb the books for source material, some of it can be pretty thin.
Take the usual suspects among the Lannister forces. The sum total of refs to sigils and banners is pretty sparse at best...
Before the Green Fork in Game of Thrones
Ser Adam Marbrand "a burning tree, orange and smoke" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Flement Brax "purple unicorn" (GOT, p.660) "they are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister...a son of Brax" (COK, p.592)
"The brindled boar of Crakehall" (GOT, p.660)
"The Bantam rooster of Swyft" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Gregor Clegane "Three black dogs on a yellow field" (GOT, p.661)
And the Lannister host marching out of Harrenhal in Clash of Kings, also frustratingly vague...
"Behind the Lannisters came their great lords and captains. Their banners flared and flapped a pageant of colour Red ox, golden mountain [presumably Lefford?], purple unicorn [Brax], bantam rooster [Swyft], brindled boar [Crakehall], and badger [Lydden], a silver ferret, and a juggler in motley, stars and sunbursts, peacock [Serrett], and panther, chevron and dagger, black hood, and blue beetle, and green arrow" (COK, p.501)
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used... I would urge anyone who wants to go to the trouble of painting up contingents, like any other gaming 'period', to do their research and check the sources first. Then they can decide how far they want their take to go... In many cases it will inevitably be down to educated guesswork and supposition...
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Anyways, in both your posts Richard you rather usefully observe the two extremes, those that like it simple (some might say spoon-fed) .... By and large, TV viewers...... And those who over-egg the canon (some might say obsessively) .... By and large, Book readers.
My personal feelings as well. While i'm amazingly 'enthused' by the production values of the series, there are, and let's not beat about the bush, some really obsessive people out there who will do their utmost to instill a degree of fundamentalist thought into the interpretation.
What, reassures me, in the many threads and posts here, the common line is 'interpretation' no single poster has all the answers but taken together, there is enormous mass of helpful information.
At the moment, my understanding of how to begin modeling GoT, has improved immeasurably.
Thank You :)
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:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it... ::))
I missed it too, apparently, as all of those wiki citations are from the books with the exception of one from the World of Ice and Fire. lol
Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points lol
Yeah, that's confusing as hell to picture so I assume the "influence" there is visual to varying degrees and more about identity?
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You need to treat the WIKI refs with caution...
I missed it too, apparently, as all of those wiki citations are from the books with the exception of one from the World of Ice and Fire.
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used
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You need to treat the WIKI refs with caution...
True, but the Wiki is curated by the same superfan couple that helped write World of Ice and Fire AFAIK. They're friends with George and I think for the last few books he even has them check his lore consistency with what he has already written.
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1) Stony Dornishmen. These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne. These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.
2) Sandy Dornishmen. They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated. They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.
3) Salty Dornishmen. The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture. Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?
:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it... ::))
The differences between, salty, stony and sandy Dornish are actually explained in the books. I'm not sure to what level it is explained though.
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@Hupp - understood.
The difficulty a pernickety git like me faces, is that I want my miniatures project to portray the fictional world in accordance with what the brilliant fantasy author has written in his brilliant fantasy books.
The fact that he has some obsessive superfans who have taken it upon themselves to overlay a lot of stuff of their own creation, albeit with the approval of the author, but which never appears in the novels themselves, makes it hard to separate what's a valid reference point from what isn't.
Like I've said before, I'm certain that many of the sigils and heraldic colour references people quote here and elsewhere were not created by GRRM - but dreamt up by said superfans... And even though GRRM may have approved their interpretations, frankly, I don't want to use them.
I suppose I'm instinctively a purist (silly of me, I know). I want to create a wargame world based on Martin's brilliant books - not on what some other interpreter has added after the event in ancillary works which I have no interest in reading...
Anyway, not worth arguing about. Just saying :)
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That's an admirable commitment to your project Richard. 8)
As a more general observation, and it's a somewhat simplistic one, isn't the point of a good read that it's your personal interpretation and imagination of the raw words that the author has gifted you. With this in mind, when it comes to the books I don't really 'get' the 'super fan' overlay that serves to create more 'canon' than is iactually there.
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And I would say that is a strength about playing games in this setting, Capt'n. We can all portray our toy soldiers how we like. :)
But back to Jim Rae's question. Have you decided on a manufacturer yet Jim?
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As a more general observation, and it's a somewhat simplistic one, isn't the point of a good read that it's your personal interpretation and imagination of the raw words that the author has gifted you. With this in mind, when it comes to the books I don't really 'get' the 'super fan' overlay that serves to create more 'canon' than is iactually there.
Good point, well made. I think that's what I was trying to say :)
And I would say that is a strength about playing games in this setting, Capt'n. We can all portray our toy soldiers how we like. :)
I heartily concur :)
The only difficulty is that when the question is asked 'what is 'right'?' I feel obliged to answer 'the books are the only thing that's 'right'. Everything else is interpretation by other people... '
Anyway. Enough already. jim rae, I hope you've got enough to go on...
I'm making my Brienne of Tarth later. We'll see how that goes...
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@Hupp - understood.
The difficulty a pernickety git like me faces, is that I want my miniatures project to portray the fictional world in accordance with what the brilliant fantasy author has written in his brilliant fantasy books.
The fact that he has some obsessive superfans who have taken it upon themselves to overlay a lot of stuff of their own creation, albeit with the approval of the author, but which never appears in the novels themselves, makes it hard to separate what's a valid reference point from what isn't.
Like I've said before, I'm certain that many of the sigils and heraldic colour references people quote here and elsewhere were not created by GRRM - but dreamt up by said superfans... And even though GRRM may have approved their interpretations, frankly, I don't want to use them.
I suppose I'm instinctively a purist (silly of me, I know). I want to create a wargame world based on Martin's brilliant books - not on what some other interpreter has added after the event in ancillary works which I have no interest in reading...
Anyway, not worth arguing about. Just saying :)
Nah, I don't think anyone in this thread reached the point of argument, just discussion. :) People are free to depict it as they wish! What's the use of GRRM's great imagination if it doesn't inspire us and fire up our own? That is definitely a fair point about "pure Martin" vs. "stuff he said at a panel one time" and "he made a passing reference to this House's sigil, but not the colors, which were added by the wiki curator". I'm just thankful that what extrapolation is present there is nothing close to resembling the sprawling mess that was the old Star Wars EU. :o lol
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On the whole I'm on Captain Blood with this. There is so much 'semi-canon' and 'non-canon' material out there. When you actually comb the books for source material, some of it can be pretty thin.
Take the usual suspects among the Lannister forces. The sum total of refs to sigils and banners is pretty sparse at best...
Before the Green Fork in Game of Thrones
Ser Adam Marbrand "a burning tree, orange and smoke" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Flement Brax "purple unicorn" (GOT, p.660) "they are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister...a son of Brax" (COK, p.592)
"The brindled boar of Crakehall" (GOT, p.660)
"The Bantam rooster of Swyft" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Gregor Clegane "Three black dogs on a yellow field" (GOT, p.661)
And the Lannister host marching out of Harrenhal in Clash of Kings, also frustratingly vague...
"Behind the Lannisters came their great lords and captains. Their banners flared and flapped a pageant of colour Red ox, golden mountain [presumably Lefford?], purple unicorn [Brax], bantam rooster [Swyft], brindled boar [Crakehall], and badger [Lydden], a silver ferret, and a juggler in motley, stars and sunbursts, peacock [Serrett], and panther, chevron and dagger, black hood, and blue beetle, and green arrow" (COK, p.501)
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used... I would urge anyone who wants to go to the trouble of painting up contingents, like any other gaming 'period', to do their research and check the sources first. Then they can decide how far they want their take to go... In many cases it will inevitably be down to educated guesswork and supposition...
If you don't mind me asking, how did you find these references without re-reading the whole series with a notebook by your side? Have you used some sort of e-book or online reader to search for the house names?
If that is the case, I'd like to ask a favour and see if you can find actual references to a few other house sigils! There are some I'm planning, and I want to know how much of the 'canon' / 'semi-canon' versions are from the actual books.
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But back to Jim Rae's question. Have you decided on a manufacturer yet Jim?
I'm going to start small (well, 28mm 8)) with some Bannermen. I've got a set of assembled Fireforge Knight Templars which i'm going to convert with their 'flowing' cloaks turned into fur with magic-scufor each lpt. I'll probably change the heads as well as they have a kinda 'Norman' look to them.
As someone suggested before, i'll concentrate on small 'generic' units with 2-3 command figure groups with different banners.
Now I have to start looking through what I have in my Perry boxes... :)
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Sounds like a good start! I can tell you that Perry sallet heads look great on FireForge bodies. Also, once you get through the Templar box, the Tuetonic Knight box comes with fur-trimmed cloaks, replacing the mantled cloaks in the Templar box. I also think the Tuetonic "special" bodies are different ( the 4 bodies on the "command" sprue) giving you some different options for your bands.
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I gave up on 28mm since I would never be able to capture the scale of the world.... I've now moved onto 6mm and I have grand plans for westeros and Essos. 6mm means no conversions but the stock models at that scale will do well enough conveying the look i want.... Ironborn and northerners are hard to pick a range for however.
I need to build armies for each of the 9 great houses first then Essos
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Forgive this bad photo; I am shooting it off my paint table. Here are 2 of my Greyjoys using Fireforge bodies with Perry heads.
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These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.
IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.
:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it... ::))
Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points lol
GRRM made a comment in an interview about the book "The world of ice and fire". Apparently it started as a website, GRRM was contacted for some clarifications and this lead to the book. From the start the plan was to have the authors (Eliot/Andersson) put everything in systematic order. GRRM is apparently bored with such things, he is just interested in extrapolating new ideas from history. GRRMs contribution of new or fleshed out material turned, he claims himself, became quite a headache for co-authors and publishers because it swelled to thousands and thousands of pages. I can imagine it took quite a bit of writing time from the completion of the next book in the series.
In short, the material in "The world of ice and fire" is quite cannon, it is just edited with GRRMs blessing (just like I am sure an editor has mucked about with the SoIaF).
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If you don't mind me asking, how did you find these references without re-reading the whole series with a notebook by your side?
To answer Charlie's question, that's exactly what I did. Just me, the books, my mark-one eyeballs and a notebook and pen. It's not actually that hard because there are relatively few passages where there are battles and musters and references to sigils and banners. I may have missed a few, but I've committed them all to paper in 'my little black book'.
There are some I'm planning, and I want to know how much of the 'canon' / 'semi-canon' versions are from the actual books.
If there are houses you want refs for Charlie, just fire away!
The same goes for anyone else out there...
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I had a really good look at the Fireforge Teutonic Infantry this morning also, the Perry Agincourt French Infantry.
Loads of potential there! :)
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Just seen these 2 minutes ago:
(https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13344787_1289636494398583_7823369691416035358_n.jpg?oh=1a6e8a72424f1e367f3179c8197490d4&oe=57C8DF25)
Medieval Russian Infantry.
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I may have missed a few, but I've committed them all to paper in 'my little black book'.If there are houses you want refs for Charlie, just fire away!
The same goes for anyone else out there...
Could you write hem out in the LAF compendium thread maybe ::) :D
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LordOdo... can do, though I'm not entirely sure how and in what format you'd like them
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LordOdo... can do, though I'm not entirely sure how and in what format you'd like them
Some of these are captured in the compendium thread, in the second post. I'd gladly collaborate with Neil to flesh that out a bit more with whatever his Mk I eyeballs and hi-tech notebooks have captured. ;D
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But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
Your comments about obsessive fans and crazed wiki-writers notwithstanding, my quote about Dorne's climate, geography and people came from a book that a certain George R.R. Martin was happy enough to claim co-authorship of (though how much of it he actually wrote I have no idea). Clearly you have more exacting standards regarding canon than the man himself; which is understandable seeing as he undoubtedly makes shed-loads of money off this stuff. ;)
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LOL, Jim, this is a dark path to take! I finished assembling my Greyjoy army just before the Perry's drooped the beauty that is the HYW French on us, or I might have gone that route. Then I saw those FireForge Russians and thought they be lovely addition as well. Many of them are dead-ringers for Tomazs' artwork!
Sigh. By the time I am done, my army will have swollen to twice it's intended size. While that is normal for many of us, it means twice as many longships to acquire!
I guess what I am saying is, grab a box of each and get glueing! There will always be some new tasty kit about. At least we have time until the Perry's drop their Hyw cavalry upon us (with a special deal on a special model if you buy 3, which I will somehow talk myself into! lol)
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I've been playing with the Perry HYW French and English and Fireforge Foot Sergeants. To my mind the HYW fit the Hollywoodesque armour descriptions Martin uses quite well. They are also quite versatile sets with lots of torsos and spare parts galore.
I'm planning on using my made up box of French Infantry with a unit of 12 English archers as a Royalist (Baratheon/Lannister&Tyrell) contingent led by Ser Randyll Tarly to fight the Northeners led by Robett Glover and Helman Tallhart and Harrion Karstark attacking Duskendale...
Thankfully the sigil sources are somewhat better for the houses involved, plus I already have Tallhart, Glover and Karstark contingents in the pipeline, though from the descriptions of the Karstarks I'm going to have to use Fireforge Foot sergeants for most of them...
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To answer Charlie's question, that's exactly what I did. Just me, the books, my mark-one eyeballs and a notebook and pen. It's not actually that hard because there are relatively few passages where there are battles and musters and references to sigils and banners. I may have missed a few, but I've committed them all to paper in 'my little black book'.If there are houses you want refs for Charlie, just fire away!
The same goes for anyone else out there...
Hey, just realised I lost track of this thread, but as you've just bumped it back up yourself I can take you up on that offer, a few months later!
Do you have any records of what the books say about the Bracken and Blackwood sigils?
Bracken in particular... It's supposed to be a red stallion. But apparently it's a red stallion on a yellow escutcheon (shield) on a brown background. I'm thinking it would look so much better without the damn brown background....
Oh, and Darry as well. The Darry ploughman. Is it really supposed to be black on yet another brown background????
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Charlie,
no problems... though the descriptions are sparse and thus open to considerable interpretation
Just make sure you never field the sectarian feuding Brackens and the Blackwoods side by side or you'd have to invoke the old Warhammer 'hatred' rule!
Blackwood: ‘the scarlet banner of the Blackwoods waved above the Lord’s tent‘ (COK, p.509)
[colour of field only, but the name makes the charge implicit plus the backstory of the dead weirwood implies a bare white tree and associated ravens]
Lord Tytos Blackwood: 'close cropped salt and pepper whiskers and a hook nose. His bright yellow armour was inlaid with jet in elaborate vine and leaf patterns and a cloak sewn from raven feathers draped his thin shoulders' (GOT, p.761)
Darry: ‘Darry’s plowman’ (COK, p.509) [charge colour and field colour not cited]
Bracken: ‘the red stallion badge of the Brackens’ (GOT, p.279) [field colour not cited]
SB :)