Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: FramFramson on July 17, 2016, 08:03:45 PM
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Just sort of using this thread as my notepad, sharing what I know, and asking others for help and further information. Policemen seem like a type of person which would show up easily enough in games, so I wanted to have a reference!
Why the interest in policemen? Well, the way I look at it, if you include civilians or bystanders of any sort in your games, then policemen are great additions - they're either armed or have access to arms, so they can fit into combat-oriented games and will be more readily recruited to help the heroes fight the monster-of-the-week or villain-of-the-day than a regular civvie. Alternately, they can serve as local foils or hazards for your heroes to negotiate.
They're also quite distinct, so they're a way to firmly locate a game visually in a specific country or place with the simple addition of a single figure or two - civilian clothes are more regional (and sometimes even near-universal, thankfully) and architecture can be regionally fudged (and who wants to build different buildings for every country anyway? Oh lord!), but coppers are distinct. See a table featuring a quiet village with a local PC Plod and you know you're north of the Channel. Swap him for a gendarme (and change your signs around if you've got any)? Now you're clearly in France.
Finally, their uniforms are often military derived, and there are some existing figures in police uniforms as well, so conversion work isn't supremely difficult.
The biggest problem I have is the colours! It's difficult to get accurate colour information when it's typically not mentioned in obvious text and only appears in the relevant language. Help on uniform colour (generally a main colour plus detail colours) would be very much appreciated.
UK Constables & French Gendarmes: I will not actually be covering those here since there are a great many resources and references online and they are relatively easy to find.
Suffice it to say that they're the only figures which have actual dedicated sculpts, mainly from Artizan who have a single French gendarme (also usable as a Swiss Gendarme, I think, with a different colour of paint), and they have quite a lot of interwar bobbies (no doubt for VBCW).
If you ARE curious about French uniforms, the Paris police have a great historical resource here: http://amicale-police-patrimoine.fr/catalogue%20uniformes.html to get you started
French uniforms were dark navy, only with trim elements in a light cream or white.
For Brits, there's a good TMP discussion (haha, what a phrase to use), on bobbies here: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=175104 the colour was of course a very dark navy, almost black, trim and tabs being the same colour plus black leather gear.
Germany:
There are two eras of interwar German police uniforms, pre-Third Reich and post-Third Reich. Pre-Reich police uniforms are similar to British police uniforms except they seem to have typically been a dark forest green and featured a short tapering shako with an elaborate badge. Third Reich-era uniforms are similar, retaining the familiar German police shako, but seem to have been a lighter shade of green, are more akin to Wehrmacht officer uniforms in cut, add a Sam Browne belt, and of course incorporate Nazi elements in the iconography. See this thread for details and pictures: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=19610.0
Switzerland:
Swiss Gendarme uniforms are essentially identical to Swiss military uniforms in character except they would have been in a neutral mid-grey with bright blue trim & tabs. See this thread for a discussion on Swiss uniforms, as well as some information on the differences between those and French Gendarmes: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=80806.0
Belguim:
Belgian Gendarmes are actually wonderfully referenced, thank to Tintin comics. As with the Swiss, they were also very similar to French uniforms, but are black with red trim, and feature a more rakish sort of kepi-forage cap hybrid (with the crown tilted backwards, instead of being a straight vertical cylinder).
(http://dardel.info/tintin/Simca01.jpg)
The Seven Crystal Balls is a good resource for this; it's technically a post-war story, but as I understand it, the uniforms hadn't substantially changed yet and wouldn't until the late 50's or early 60's.
Russia:
Cuprum kindly supplied me with this information a few years ago on Soviet-era interwar police. It seems for figures you could just use interwar or early war army figures as the cut was the same only the colours were different.
Militiamen (police) - wore the same uniform as the army, but other colors.
Black uniform (black pants, too) - winter uniforms for street patrol, criminal investigation and administrative staff.
Blue uniform (pants also blue) - Mounted police.
White shirt and white cover on forage cap - summer version of uniforms for all employees. Pants are the same as in winter uniform.
Unfortunately I forgot to ask what colour the hat band/insignia would be! Does anyone know?
Poland:
Interestingly Polish police interwar uniforms seem almost American in cut and design! You might be able to use American motorcycle coppers (to get the right pants & boots) of all things for 'em. Copplestone has some 30's-style American police.
(http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/polscy-policjanci.jpg?aad964)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tzr7ju34hzw/Ugjy3uu9xYI/AAAAAAAAAyk/OQvKS5ECo38/s1600/historia_policji2a4.jpg)
Unfortunately, while they're clearly a dark colour I have no idea what the correct colours would be for the overall uniform or the trim/tabs. Any help would be appreciated there.
Netherlands:
I am completely unclear on what would be correct for Dutch Police. I have found fairly widely differing uniforms:
(https://vereniging-heemkunde-voormalige-gemeente-weerselo.mijnstadmijndorp.nl/files/stories/header_images/politie.jpg)
This first image was attached to an article on Dutch police that seemed to focus on pre-war policing, but reading it again, it might be a postwar image
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0x51YwBwF2E/TuSOWB-KSeI/AAAAAAAAALs/F7m-Jwnrb-8/s1600/Motorbrigade%2BMilitaire%2BPolitietroepen%2B-%2B1934%2B-%2BPaul.jpg)
These fellows are clearly labelled as Leiden police dated 1932, so that seems more reliable. Also they're motorcycle police, but don't seem to use riding pants or boots, so this is probably the regular uniform. It seems you could use bobbies, with a different coat of paint just using head- or hat-swaps to replace bewhiskered brits in custodial helmets with clean-shaven Dutchmen wearing these crested Kepis. Again, I don't know about colours here and any help is appreciated.
Italy:
Italy is surprisingly unclear for me. I know that in Italy the police forces have a rather odd jurisdictional segregation by duties and not as much by location, so there are local police, traffic-only police, the federal Carabinieri, etc. In any case, I found some images of interwar Carabinieri, but it seems the uniform varied a lot:
(http://www.centropoliscastelbuono.com/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=img&id=1878&option=com_joomgallery) (http://ancsassari.altervista.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/due-carabinieri.png)
Obviously they heavily borrow in cut and design from the existing military uniforms, so I would expect you could use those for conversion purposes. The real trick is figuring out which hat to use and what colours to paint them!
Spain:
Police during the Civil War is a mess I figured I would stay out of, besides which I'm sure that's better covered by SCW resources. However, prior to the the SCW, amazingly enough it seems like local police uniforms were very... British!
(http://cj-worldnews.com/spain/images/53.jpg)
EDIT: First image is postwar. Ignore please. The two below are prewar (dated 1930).
(http://cloud10.todocoleccion.online/militaria-propaganda/tc/2014/09/04/12/45078334.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TPQ1xVb_42k/UeE1uVej5AI/AAAAAAAAKLc/2CHwCJ5KOmg/s1600/1017117_10151502231801375_1920990331_n.jpg)
Huh... how about that?
Also, of course there are the national gendarmerie, the Guardia Civil, with their distinctive hats:
(http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/3167736-two-members-of-the-spanish-paramilitary-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=FFUoN1xUiEQcr6ZQJrlz9BChFUIBgZPW9bgrtboe4CmePV8Eb1hlZ3dqOehcutTa)
For Guardia figures there are plenty of SCW figures, although these are typically sculpted to be equipped as paramilitary units for actual military combat and not police duties.
More to come later...
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[This post reserved for additional police information & uniform information]
I have yet to research:
- Norway
- Sweden
- Finland
- Greece
- Portugal
- Austria
- Yugoslavia
- Czechoslovakia
- Romania
- maybe other other balkan countries if I really feel like it
- maybe the Baltic states, although now that's REALLY niche
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I am afraid that the first spanish pic you posted is after the Civil War. The guy in the right is in the grey uniform of the "Policía Armada". My grandfather was a member of the Policía Armada, and before the war he was a Guardia de Asalto. The two local policemen are in a fairly modern uniform, and the kid is dressed very modern too. I think that the pic is from the 50´s at least.
If I get time I´ll scan a couple of pics from my grandfather in uniform.
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Ah, thanks! The other two had clear dates of 1930, so they should be fine. Would love to see those pics!
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You pain the arsenal lol
Just when I think I've got a handle on the police figures I need ,You throw another tread into the mix.
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I think you can be forgiven for just sticking to one or two major nations, and if all you do are a couple Germans, that's the biggest unfulfilled need done. I've found no less than a half-dozen threads asking about German Interwar police, but I can't say there's been nearly so much interest about, say, Polish or Dutch ones :P
I think anyone looking for something less common should know they will be in for some conversion work (though it doesn't seem like that's an insurmountable hill). All I want to do is try to make that process easy! For some nations you don't even need conversion, just repainting. If no one were to ever sculpt any dedicated interwar police at all, I would be fine on my own just converting for my own needs. Having actual sculpts is like a bonus!
The Brits are covered in spades thanks to Artizan's figures (plus possibly some additional VBCW manufacturers as well?) and technically there's a Warlord PC as well (he was a promotional figure and is hard to get and pricey) and a subpar Reaper figure even.
The French only have the one Artizan figure (Captain Citroen), so if you really do want to diversify, a French gendarme seems like the next natural candidate.
(Also another update: Corrected the Swiss using near-French uniforms. That is NOT correct! Linked a past discussion thread about the League of Nations that goes into that. Also added a basic bit of info for French and British uniforms)
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The French only have the one Artizan figure (Captain Citroen), so if you really do want to diversify, a French gendarme seems like the next natural candidate.
There are a few candidates for French gendarmes besides Artizan's Capt Citroen. I have a set of Brigade Games' French police:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/Photos009.jpg) (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/WillBailie/media/Miniatures/Photos009.jpg.html)
I can't believe that these are the only gendarmes out there!
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Ah! There we go.
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Also Eureka do ranges of:
a) Victorian era bobbies, some in cape other in greatcoat but both suitable for the interwar era as well.
b) Victorian (as in Victoria the Australian State) mounted police for the 1920s and '30s. These are probably usable for British mounted police.
BTD have a De Gaulle figure in their WW2 Men of War range that would just need paint to convert into a gendarme. It's a very nice figure too btw.
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My guess is that there's several French military officer figures who would repaint well as gendarmes, I think.
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Policemen seem like a type of person which would show up easily enough in games, so I wanted to have a reference!
Why the interest in policemen? Well, the way I look at it, if you include civilians or bystanders of any sort in your games, then policemen are great additions - they're either armed or have access to arms, so they can fit into combat-oriented games and will be more readily recruited to help the heroes fight the monster-of-the-week or villain-of-the-day than a regular civvie. Alternately, they can serve as local foils or hazards for your heroes to negotiate.
~
More to come later...
Forget ye not the 'secret' policeman, or detective, in trenchcoat & fedora.
I know he don't give you the regional specificity your uniformed flatfoot does,
nonetheless he's a vital part of the head bustin' judicial system when needed.
(http://www.tabletoptitans.com/img/rules/0001_10.jpg)
This lunkhead could be an innocent bystander...
Or Kripo, or Special Branch, or SDU, or Sûreté, or Flying Squad, a T-man, or SIPO, a МУС приказ, ONI, CID, or whatever alphabet soup you choose.
A cop out, perhaps, well, in fact, yes tis, after all,
"Indecision is the key to flexibility"
Buckaroo Banzai
Why waste valuable paintin'/playin' time researching the perfect uniform for that one special figure of an Austrian Naval Intelligence bloke ya just hafta have on the table?
Button counters be damned, a trench coated enigma does the job, in Spades!!
For those who demand video reference, watch anything noir, or
(http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/movieposters/5090/p5090_p_v8_aa.jpg)
Valerik
who dassn't stop researchin' to paint or to play...
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Oh I have some of those already! lol
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Oh I have some of those already!
You'd be a Pretty Poor Pulp Player if ya didn't!!
I did manage to find this gem:
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/13/98/25/75/swedis10.jpg)
& these Tiger Miniatures Lads:
(http://recreationalconflict.lusagi.com/tigerimages/full/bw01.jpg)
BW01 Generic Officers
have a multitude of mis-uses... As have a great many of their other offerings.
I highly recommend their mules!!
Richard at Recreational Conflict is your friend for these & other Tiger goodies!
(http://recreationalconflict.lusagi.com/siteimages/recconsitebanner.gif)
http://www.recreationalconflict.com/ (http://www.recreationalconflict.com/)
Also recall Bob Murch does many a minion of the law worldwide...
PHP15 for eaxample, Istanbul Constabulary
(http://pulpfigures.com/files/php15.jpg)
One look at them onna table & you KNOW you're east of Vienna & likely west of Kabul...
Valerik
Who prefers to observe cops in the wild, rather than behind bars...
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(http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/movieposters/5090/p5090_p_v8_aa.jpg)
How memory dims. One forgets that noted racist and Enoch Powell fan Eric Clapton was on that bill or that there was a time when anyone would pay to hear Phil Collins, music's version of anti-matter. Actually it's worse than that, fucking Sting was a 'special guest'. I reckon Amnesty could have made a real motza by offering to raffle him off to Pinochet's DINA for a solo concert.
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[This post reserved for additional police information & uniform information]
I have yet to research:
- Norway
- Sweden
- Finland
- Greece
- Portugal
- Austria
- Yugoslavia
- Czechoslovakia
- Romania
- maybe other other balkan countries if I really feel like it
- maybe the Baltic states, although now that's REALLY niche
Quite detailed info on Finland:
http://poliisimuseo.virkapukuhistoria.fi/en/
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A very informative thread... nice work!
A couple of things;
Britain: The colour of police uniforms was set by the Home Office and was that dark navy blue - almost black colour, as opposed to the navy blue often seen painted on miniatures. Helmet styles varied from force to force, as did the badges. 'Day' badges and buttons were silver and 'Night' badges and buttons were black.
Back then officers on night duty were permitted to carry a pistol if they felt the need. Otherwise firearms were issued to 'competent' (a very loose term) officers on the authority of a sergeant or above, at their discretion; albeit there had to be an adequate perceived need that could be explained in court.
Spain: The Guardia Civil, Carabineros and the later Guardia de Asalto, were all 'gendarmerie' (paramilitary) effectively and not so much 'police'; the first two even fell under the Ministry of Defence and all three were 'National Forces' administered from Madrid, recruited solely from ex-military personnel. They lived in 'cuartels' with their families, which were essentially fortified barracks. To those can be added the Mozos de Escuadra of Catalonia (and another force in the Basque Country whose name I forget), who stood in for the GC there effectively. These guys were always fully-armed (rifles, machine guns, armoured cars) to fight smugglers, bandits, rioters, armed militants and what-have-you; tough jobs for tough times, even by the standards of the 30s.
Local municipalities had their own 'police' forces and reserved the right to clothe and equip them as they saw fit. This led to quite a wide variety of uniforms, which varied from those that were utilitarian, to those that were perhaps more at home in 'Carnival'. These were the 'police' as we in the UK would understand them at least, recruited from, by and for, the community (although usually only answerable to the local 'big man/men' or 'caciques').
Just to add to the confusion, there were 'Summer' and 'Winter' uniforms for all that varied in detail too.
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Good information, thanks!
I've noticed that the British PC uniforms were indeed a very very dark shade of navy, which continued to be the case postwar for a while.
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Poland
Polish Interwar Police Uniforms were darkblue (very rare "SWAT" Special Reserve were darkgreen):
http://policjapanstwowa.pl/umundurowanie-i-wyposazenie/
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Fantastic! Thanks!
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Tsuba miniatures does produce Werdenfels troops. http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=47040.0
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Pre-war Hungarian police (Rendőrség) had a neat uniform with a a very distinctive helmet. I've actually got a videotape of old footage of these guys in action [Edit: Well, I know I did have a videotape some years ago - but I just looked and can't find it now!]
(http://www.huszadikszazad.hu/img/980/32609_rendorok_kb._1933.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/27/87/44278787a92f5c723a15cfb27af528d3.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/b5/ca/2bb5cae51358cf69325edc112771ec25.jpg)
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Pre-war Hungarian police (Rendőrség) had a neat uniform with a a very distinctive helmet. I've actually got a videotape of old footage of these guys in action [Edit: Well, I know I did have a videotape some years ago - but I just looked and can't find it now!]
(http://www.huszadikszazad.hu/img/980/32609_rendorok_kb._1933.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/27/87/44278787a92f5c723a15cfb27af528d3.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/b5/ca/2bb5cae51358cf69325edc112771ec25.jpg)
Cores apples, husks coconuts and ideal for juicing most of the larger citrus fruits. Avoid outside use during thunderstorms.
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;D lol