Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Doc Twilight on January 25, 2009, 10:09:15 AM
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As I promised, I'm going to try to keep those interested updated with my progress on this project. The goal is to complete the project in time for the Kublacon convention at the end of May. I'll use this topic heading to post any relevant news, rather than spam everybody to high heaven with a new post every time I do something in regards to the project.
The project will represent an engagement or series of engagements between the Aztecs and Conquistadors in 28mm during the period of the Spanish Conquest. At present, the plan is to do a relatively low level skirmish using the Gloire swashbuckling-era rules. I say an engagement or series of engagements because, as yet, I have not played the system enough to gauge just how long the scenario(s) I have in mind will last, and my goal is to make the game playable within four hours, with the hope that the action will still be going for at least two or three of those - it would be very disappointing to make a lot of effort to put on a game and have it end (however excitingly it may end) in too short a period of time. I don't like overly long games, but I like to get my "evenings worth" out of my investments.
Gloire is a fine set of rules, perfectly suited for the period. It's also easy to learn, and requires very little in terms of lead to provide a good thing. These are all good points. Oh yes, and they read well too, which I can't say for all currently produced miniatures rules.
The project will be somewhat experimental, based upon an idea I've had stewing for many years. Essentially, eight players will be involved. Each player, however, will control both Conquistador AND Aztec forces. The objective will be not only to win with one of his forces, but to delay his enemies with the other. I think it would be a very unique, and entertaining way to spend a few hours.
Certainly much different than your standard wargame; if it succeeds, this means that I'll be able to do other projects that previously might not have been practicable, either because one side wasn't particularly active enough to warrant player control, or in a situation where one side is so desperately outnumbered that it can't win in a straight up fight. At any rate, I believe the Gloire rules will suit my purposes admirably.
Today's task was focused on getting the lead to build the respective forces. After a lot of hemming and hawing over which figures to go with for the project, I decided to go with Eureka's 28mm range (eurekamin.com.au); Eureka does an excellent Conquistador range, but an even better Aztec range. They are simply beautiful castings (you can see them by going to the Eureka website). I also seriously considered the ranges done by OWS and TAG (The Assault Group), but ultimately decided to go with everything from one place. If I have any objection to the range by Eureka, it is that the Conquistadors, every single one of them (with the exception of the 'officer' figure), have moustaches and/or beards/goatees. I realize that facial hair was quite fashionable for the Spaniards at the time, but I would have liked a little more variety - some clean shaven chaps, perhaps soldados with three days of growth rather than fully manicured beards. It's just a personal thing - I've never liked armies with a ton of facial hair (something psychological in that I'm sure, or maybe I've spent too much time studying the Romans) but I am willing to make an exception with Conquistadors - just wish there was a little more variety.
I could have gone with the TAG conquistadors, who have a little more variety in the facial hair department, but it's a very minor thing, and unfortunately, TAG doesn't have the variety in poses that Eureka does. Ultimately, given that I'm doing a relatively low level skirmish, I want a lot of unique poses, faces, weapons, etc, Eureka currently wins on that account over TAG.
Another advantage is that more of the Eureka figures have quilted armor; this is again a minor point, but while some of the Spaniards were wearing full plate, or demi-plate, a lot of them had specially produced cotton armor, made in Havana for Cortes and his men. The TAG troops are fairly heavy on leather and plate, fairly light on cotton, and again, I'd like to see a little better mix of both.
That said, the TAG range is still fairly new, there is more planned for it, and I do intend to pick some up to fill out my ranks, and add variety, as I do more projects.
I have ordered all of my essential figures, including some native porters; what I don't have yet are pack mules, and I may order them from TAG, which makes some very nice beasts of burden, and are a sight cheaper than the ones Foundry produces, just at the moment.
Now, I need to focus on planning the fine points of the scenario, and on acquiring the necessary terrain. I will likely be using a mix of Acheson and Stonehouse terrain, along with some pieces I already have, for the latter; the former is a continual process, and probably won't be finished until the last playtest, but I'll keep you updated as it moves along.
More soon.
-Doc
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I'm looking forward to seeing this develop!
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Do keep us posted. I also have the Eureka Aztecs and Conquistadors, and they're magnificent miniatures indeed.
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Looking forward to seeing this I have the Eureka figures and they are lovely, On beards I dont think you can have too many these were hardened veterans on campaign and reflect it well. If you can have a look at Chronofus site he has the poertuguese (Mid 16th C) which are very much down trodden Chaps
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Great project. Keep us posted.
Out of interest, you didn't consider the (default?) option of the Foundry (Copplestone) conquistadors?
They are beautiful, characterful figures - and many without beards! ;)
I don't think the TAG ones are out yet, are they? They were only showing the greens on their forum a few weeks ago... :?
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Didn't Ochmann do the Foundry Aztecs?
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Didn't Ochmann do the Foundry Aztecs?
Yes he did indeed and there lies a tale :o
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Spill it, bucko. :)
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Hello, everyone -
Thank you for your votes of confidence. I'll do my best to keep you updated; at the moment I'm awaiting delivery of the castings and working on the scenario portion. Not much to show at present, but hope to have something up soon.
I did have a look at the Foundry figs, but ultimately decided to go with Eureka. In short, I had a very bad experience with Foundry a couple of years ago (was one of those who had his credit card information stolen), and so I'm a little cautious about ordering direct from them, so that's part of my issue. The other is, I guess, that I simply preferred the Eureka Conquistadors overall, though I do like some of the Foundry figs, particularly those with the closed helms. I also think they're Aztecs are very nice, but ultimately, the Eureka figs blew me away, and at a better price to boot. I might pick up a few of both Foundry ranges to fill in the ranks, eventually.
So what's this tale about the Foundry Aztecs?
-Doc
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Spill it, bucko. :)
I think we all agree that they are very nice, however when trying to Josef to sculpt some more ::) it became apparent that WF didnt like the poses apparently not in keeping with their style of figures???
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Spill it, bucko. :)
I think we all agree that they are very nice, however when trying to Josef to sculpt some more ::) it became apparent that WF didnt like the poses apparently not in keeping with their style of figures???
Hmmm. Weird.
I think I'm right in saying that the conquistadors was the last range Mark Copplestone sculpted for Foundry before he struck out on his own. The range was always intended to be much bigger than the one 'collection' available, but they had a parting of ways at the inopportune moment :?
Shame really, 'cos if Copplestone had finished off the full intended range of 20 or so packs, and then gone onto the Aztecs...
Well, let's just say that Copplestone-sculpted Aztecs would have been worth seeing.
I have a few of the TAG Aztecs sculpted by Mark Sims. They're very small and a bit variable in quality. The open hands to hold weapons are particularly poor.
By the way, I was wrong. TAG do have their conquistadors in their online shop already. Sculpted by Nick Collier - look very nice. :)
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Yep Captain he was basically going to follow the Ina Heath book on the topic it would have been a gem of a range
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For the last couple of days, I have been sketching out maps and attempting to lay out a basic "floorplan" for my intended scenario(s).
I have already decided that my terrain will be a mix of Stonehouse and Acheson Creations models, primarily because they are easier to acquire at the moment than Monolith, which I would like to incorporate if at all possible. With the measurements of these pieces in mind, I'm sketching out some provisional plans for the playing surface. Can't say enough about how useful grid paper is in this regard - it's a great way to scale out plans and it's saved me a lot of grief in recent projects. Don't know I did this stuff before without it - I can imagine my previous projects would have been that much less stressful, which is always a good thing.
At the moment, there are a couple considerations in regards to developing the scenario layout.
The first of these is just how realistic I want to make the setup. All of the accounts of the Spanish fighting in Tenochtitlan, both during La Noche Triste and the final siege, consistently report that the Spanish had a rough time in the city because it's avenues and streets prevented the Spanish from dominating the battlefield with firepower as much as they had done in open field battles. Even with the addition of reinforcements from Cuba, and several thousand native allies, the fight for the city in the last days of the Aztec Empire was not exactly a walk in the park. At the same time, Aztec cities were very clean, very well laid out, devoid of the narrow streets and fire hazards that you'd see in European cities of the time (and don't even get me started about how much more hygienic they were, even -with- the constant human sacrifices).
So, I have to incorporate that "crowded city" feel for the game. I have to make the Spaniards feel hemmed in and claustrophobic; but at the same time, I have to be realistic about it. I can't simply make a bunch of blind alleyways - because that doesn't really jive with the historical accounts of the city. Nevertheless, there should be a limited line of sight within the town. It shouldn't be an easy thing for the Spanish to simply mow down the Aztecs as they come.
The other thing about realism is a simple question. Just how realistic do I want this thing to be? I recently acquired a bargain-bin sourcebook on the Aztecs and Maya, which has helped to fill in a few gaps in my understanding. One of the interesting parts of this book is a series of one to two page descriptions of some of the most important Central American cities, and each of these profiles includes a simplified layout of the major features in the city, or at least one section thereof. The only Aztec built city in the book is Tenochtitlan, and the section detailed is the Temple District. So, now I actually have a layout for what the temple district looked like. The question is - do I really want to recreate the temple district as built, or do I want to make this a fictional district of my own? I can see advantages to either, but I'll simply say that one of the nice things about having a fictional entity within a historical game is the flexibility it allows, particularly in "adventure" games of this type. On the other hand, being able to accurately recreate part of what's essentially an extinct metropolitan center is pretty cool.
The other major consideration in drawing up terrain is time factor. How do I lay out this city within a relatively small area (4x4) and maintain a game long enough to appeal to a convention type audience? Do I open up one square of the district at a time? Do I scatter them to the four winds? Difficult decisions, and I still haven't yet come to an appropriate solution. Running a "mini campaign" would certainly deal with some of the time, but realistically I don't think I'll have the room available to provide completely different terrain setups for different scenarios, so it's a matter of providing maximum utility for the space I"m covering, and anyway, I'm not sure just how to do this in a single session of convention gaming.
At any rate, that's where I am at the moment. More as things develop.
-Doc
-Doc
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Ignore histroy and go for narrow streets with perhaps a forum/plaza. You can have a small temple complex which could be a local temple. Each of the parts of the city were divided into Barrios where specific trade or military "guilds" wold be.
One major thing is false walls and dead ends used by the Aztecs as they were essentially adobe they werre built to hem the Conquistadors in or were false walls they could break through.
On La Noche Triste they were leaving the city, the above was the seige. What you are after is for the guys to escpape is for them to run a gauntlet of warriors, pitfalls and traps perhaps. Remember it was started at night too so perhaps a bit of sneaking around so the gaurds arent alerted
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I'd just knock up a miniature replica of the city set from 'Apocalypto' if I were you... Won't take long... ;) lol
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Some good thoughts, LTD. Thank you:)
And Captain Blood... Apocalypto sounds like just the ticket, now that I can get Maya;)
(I would actually like to do up some Maya and Inca eventually, now that I'm finally pursuing this line of interest)
Couple thoughts on the Aztecs.
As an archaeologist (well, almost, I still don't have my PHD), I thought I knew a fair amount about the Aztecs. Now, they aren't my area of focus, but I like to think I knew at least a decent amount about them. Now that I've dug into the subject matter again, I'm learning all sorts of things.
For example, the cannibalism. I honestly didn't know about it. I'd heard rumors, but I'd truly believed that these were simply Spanish claims. The Spanish had a lot of legitimate reasons to think that the Aztecs were nasty folks, and vice versa, but I figured the cannibalism thing was just one of those things an impressionable foreigner assume after seeing so many sacrifices or at least hearing about them; sort of the way that the Romans came to believe that the Christians were practicing cannibalism because of the whole "consuming the body and blood of the savior" ritual.
Then I read about just how common cannibalism was among the Aztecs, and frankly, I was shocked. I know I probably shouldn't be, but it was actually new information to me. I'd known about the sacrificing bit, the flayed skin bit, etc... but actually roasting and eating the bodies with tortillas, now that's something new for me. I had -no- illusions that these were nice people, dancing around in circles and singing kum-ba-yah, but this was a genuine revelation for me.
I'm discovering that this is one of those historical conflicts in which both sides are, to put it bluntly, morally ambiguous to say the very least... Genuine heroes on both sides, yes, but it's hard to look at either the Aztecs or the Spanish and pick "good guys" or "bad guys". Of course, the beauty of adventure gaming in this period is that we can make a big deal of the exceptions, rather than the rules.
On another front, I have been reading some arguments lately that perhaps the idea about Aztec soldiers using weapons unsuited for lethal warfare is a gross oversimplification. Again, I'm by no means any expert, but I do think that's possible. Perhaps some historians have read too much into the Flower Wars phenomenon and assumed this was business as usual for all wars in Meso-America. Impossible to know for certain, but I'd never really bought into the idea that they lost because they didn't traditionally fight to kill.
I do think there's something to the belief that the Flower Wars may have had an effect upon the Aztec -approach- to war in general, but I'm not particularly convinced they fought the Spanish with the intention to knock them out, rather than kill them, especially after some of the early battles.
At any rate, now I'm wondering another thing about the New World cultures, and perhaps someone here can answer the question. It's obvious that the Aztecs performed cannibalism and human sacrifice, and that so too did the Maya. Did the Inca? I know about their mummy based cults, the extreme veneration of ancestors, etc, but I'm not sure that I can recall much about human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Anybody know?
-Doc
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I will try and reply on my very limited knowledge which is on reading secondary and tertiary sources
For example, the cannibalism. I honestly didn't know about it. I'd heard rumors, but I'd truly believed that these were simply Spanish claims. Then I read about just how common cannibalism was among the Aztecs, and frankly, I was shocked. I know I probably shouldn't be, but it was actually new information to me. I'd known about the sacrificing bit, the flayed skin bit, etc... but actually roasting and eating the bodies with tortillas, now that's something new for me. I had -no- illusions that these were nice people, dancing around in circles and singing kum-ba-yah, but this was a genuine revelation for me.
**Yes they did but not to such a large extent, now something I am working on are the Brazilian indians...they were pukka cannibals with the Tupi indians practrising ritualistic "vendetta" cannibalism in intertribal wars whilst the Aimore and other Ge Indians hunted and fought for food! The Portuguese accounts are horrific with whole colonies being eaten
I'm discovering that this is one of those historical conflicts in which both sides are, to put it bluntly, morally ambiguous to say the very least... Genuine heroes on both sides, yes, but it's hard to look at either the Aztecs or the Spanish and pick "good guys" or "bad guys". Of course, the beauty of adventure gaming in this period is that we can make a big deal of the exceptions, rather than the rules.
**Yes both brutal, and evil whilst being herioc in their own way very much a perception from a christian point of view too. I think of the Aztecs as similar to Spartans who were an evil bunch but heroic
On another front, I have been reading some arguments lately that perhaps the idea about Aztec soldiers using weapons unsuited for lethal warfare is a gross oversimplification. Again, I'm by no means any expert, but I do think that's possible. Perhaps some historians have read too much into the Flower Wars phenomenon and assumed this was business as usual for all wars in Meso-America. Impossible to know for certain, but I'd never really bought into the idea that they lost because they didn't traditionally fight to kill.
I do think there's something to the belief that the Flower Wars may have had an effect upon the Aztec -approach- to war in general, but I'm not particularly convinced they fought the Spanish with the intention to knock them out, rather than kill them, especially after some of the early battles.
**Yes a popular debate, the Flower wars were devisive and a means to kepp other city states such as the Tlaxcalans and Tarsacans etc in check whilst expanding their territory through conquest. As you say there were major flaws or rather disadvantages of obsidian weapons against steel, although sharp cutting edges they were brittle and would break and the technique was a slashing one rather than stabbing as a result which played into the Spanish techniques of swordsmanship often over stated.
What is oft over looked in a lot of writing about the campaign is the Indian allies, even at the seige of Tenoshtitlan there were less than 2,000 Spanish, what is not so often mentioned is that the Tlaxcalans and other allies numbered in the region of 20,000. And once Alvarez had "assassinated their high command (which led eventually to La Noche Triste) their fighting elite and command structure was severly damaged, that and smallpox would have heavily damaged their fighting capacity.
At any rate, now I'm wondering another thing about the New World cultures, and perhaps someone here can answer the question. It's obvious that the Aztecs performed cannibalism and human sacrifice, and that so too did the Maya. Did the Inca? I know about their mummy based cults, the extreme veneration of ancestors, etc, but I'm not sure that I can recall much about human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Anybody know?
***Inca didnt however some of their indian allies and auxiliaries certainly did similalrly with the Maya, however as said earlier the Brazilian indians thrived on it
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Today, I finished a rough layout of the board.
It will consist of four 2x2 sections, including a Temple, Residential, Market, and "Royal" district. I haven't decided for certain yet whether these will be deployed in a large square, or staggered, etc. I'm tentatively going to begin playtesting and designing with the square shape in mind, but the boards will be modular enough, I think, to accommodate any shape I decide to go with.
The majority of the temple buildings and statuary will be from Stonehouse Miniatures, a US based company. They do some very nice work, and come in a decent looking stone color, although like Low Tar Dog and his group, I'm thinking that they will need to be repainted. I don't know how elaborate I will go with this, but most of the painted reconstructions I've seen show them with white as a base color, at minimum (as do the beautiful pics from LTD's project). I'm not sure if I will be painting the murals, too. Depends upon how enthusiastic/creative I get, but at any rate, these pieces will be a very good start. I will try to get some shots of them when I receive them.
The rest of the buildings, with the exception of a generic stone fountain that I already own from the Miniature Building Authority, will be Acheson Creations/Arrow Miniatures buildings. This is a nice little collection, and includes various upper class and lower class dwellings, granaries in two varieties, and some other structures. They can be ordered pre-painted, but I don't think I'll be going that route.
I have already ordered the pieces from Stonehouse, and of course the miniatures from Eureka are on their way (they'd already be here if it weren't for my bank deciding suddenly the other day that overseas purchases, which I make regularly, were suddenly an indication of fraud... resulting in an unfortunate delay, and a much annoyed me at 3am working out details with the bank, but I digress...).. The Arrow/Acheson buildings will be ordered next paycheck. I already have the rest of my materials, so it's just a matter of getting everything painted up.
The plan at the moment is to go with the looting scenario, as I believe it allows for a little more scope for the purposes of a one-off typed game. If I can work out the Noche Triste angle instead, so much the better, but at the very least, these buildings should make the Noche Triste campaign in "Among the War Parties" playable.
I am enjoying thumbing through Gloire, and looking forward to doing a lot with it. Let me just say again that Pete has done a fantastic job. He's captured the genre beautifully. I'm hoping to do some Solo gaming for my own purposes, as well as multi-player stuff with my group. There is a good looking Solo campaign in "Among the War Parties", and perhaps there are others out there (if anybody has solo scenarios for the game, or any of the other games in the Rattrap stable, I'd love to see them.. I enjoy solo gaming, as I have a lot of free time during the day when I'm not digging or writing). At the very least, I will have to adopt some of my favorite Solomon Kane adventures. (Brigade makes a passable Solomon Kane, though I'm still hoping for that perfect casting to pop up, one of these days). Of course, now I have an excuse to use the Highwaymen models I've always admired but haven't had a use for, the occasional Baroque Assassin, the Zorro Figs that Malamute is working on... Lots of good stuff. And hey, if I can at least get some solo games out of them, so much the better.
In the meanwhile, while I await the arrival of the pieces necessary for this project, I am continuing with my re-education in matters Aztec. It's quite a fascinating, if bloodthirsty, civilization.
I'm recalling something that happened several years ago. I had a prof in undergrad that I liked a lot. Tended to work with a lot of the Central American stuff, particularly the Maya. Anyway, one day we were sitting in class discussing the Paleolithic. And one of my classmates, one of those guys who's always wearing a Che Guevara shirt and spouting off about politics he hasn't a clue about, raised his hand and started an interesting exchange.
"Professor," he said, "isn't it true that some of our ancestors were vegetarians? That they managed to live without killing other animals."
"Yes," he said, "the Archaeological record makes it clear that at least some of the early humans were vegetarians."
"What happened to them?" my politically astute classmate asked.
"We ate them," came the reply.
LTD, thanks for clarifying the Inca bit. I wasn't sure about that part. I think the Tupi project sounds interesting, though. Planning a big game with them? You'll have to share some photos, at least, if you're working on something. The Tupi are the perfect stereotypical jungle cannibal opponents!
Thanks for following along, folks. More info to come as fast as I have something productive to show for it.
-Doc
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Another brief update:
This week, I received my miniatures order from Eureka. They really are lovely pieces, these miniatures in the Aztec and Conquistador range, and I can't recommend them highly enough. I am very satisfied that my money was well spent. Here are some links to the Eureka website and the relevant miniatures purchased.
I should note that the size of these miniatures is quite impressive - these are big 28s. Having not seen the TAG miniatures in the flesh, I can't say for certain that they'd mix well, so I'm glad I stuck with getting all my minis from Eureka for this particular project.
Aztecs -
Eagle Knights...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1707 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1707)
Cayman Knights...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1708 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1708)
War Priests with back banners...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1711 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1711)
Cuachic Warriors...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1713 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1713)
Huaxtec Suit Warriors...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1712 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1712)
Novices with armor...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1703 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1703)
Novices with atlatl...
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1701 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1701)
Aztec Sacrifice!
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1714 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1714)
I also picked up several of the native bearer types.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1716 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1716)
Will save you the grief of so many links and post up links to the Conquistadors I purchased tomorrow.
Overall, I am quite satisfied with these miniatures. Not a bit of flash. Nice, deeply sculpted detail. I think they will paint up quickly, and hopefully look halfway decent on the tabletop.
One item that I regret not picking up is a set of the Jaguar Warriors. I had intended to do so, but forgot to click the box;) I'll probably order those before I run the full game, though I think I've got plenty of other stuff to use at this point. Just feels odd to have Aztecs and no Jaguars. The Cayman Knights, are so far as I can tell a bit of fantasy, but they were just too lovely to pass up, so they'll definitely see some use.
I'm already planning another Eureka order, as those lovely VSF Prussians with rocket packs are finally back!
-Doc
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I should note that the size of these miniatures is quite impressive - these are big 28s. Having not seen the TAG miniatures in the flesh, I can't say for certain that they'd mix well
Well I can tell you for a fact the TAG minis are SMALL - both height wise and diminutive in stature. People assure me they are 'true 28mm', but they look and feel to me more like 25mm. This applies both to the Flower Wars range (sculpted by Mark Sims) and the Renaissance range (sculpted by Nick Collier - although to be fair I haven't seen his new conquistadors in the flesh yet... )
So if Eureka are at the large end of the 28mm universe, they certainly won't sit comfortably alongside TAG figures.
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Hey twilight, what sorce info are you useing for your Aztecs? I am looking into doing a centrol amrican adventer myself.
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I have lots of the eureka figures myself, infact more than half the army are Eureka with the remainder Foundry and a few TAG. Cap`n Blood is right the TAG are small however there are some subtle changes in style in the Eureka, the novice warriors tend to be a little flat whilst the suit wearers are generally great sculpts. Their sacricial set is great too
The best and easiest srouce for reading on the conquest and other conquests is the Heath book sold by Foudnry a must have on your book shelf.
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Commissar Moody -
The Osprey books are a good start; the Pohl book is not very impressive (not many color plates), and I was warned away from the Wise book. I don't have the Heath Book (yet), but I've got plenty of other sources in the meanwhile. LTD knows what he's talking about, and I've heard the recommendation from others, so I'll be picking up a copy as soon as I can find one.
In the meanwhile, though, there is actually a surprisingly useful amount of information on the internet, in this case, most of it is pretty decent. I would suggest beginning your search there. Here are a couple useful, approachable web based sources to start with.
The first is a basic painting guide over at Balagan.
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/iberia/1492/mexico/painting_guide_aztec.htm (http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/iberia/1492/mexico/painting_guide_aztec.htm)
The second, "Meet the Aztecs", is a useful dissection of the current DBM "Aztec" list, but it has a good deal of very helpful information about how the Aztec Army worked, the various distinctions, weapons, etc. There's also an extensive bibliography.
http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/lylat/11/meet_the_aztecs.htm (http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/lylat/11/meet_the_aztecs.htm)
-Doc
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For a great free resource on colours of costume and shields here is the best place to go, a book in the making so to speak
http://www.chronofus.net/php/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54
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Another brief update.
I went ahead and placed another Eureka order to get those Jaguar Warriors. Turns out that I did, indeed, fail to click the correct box when ordering the miniatures the first time around; not a big deal at all, just sort of a pain to have to wait another week for them.
Here's a link to the Eureka Jaguar Warriors.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1710 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_135&products_id=1710)
I also ordered a few... err.. other figures. Not exactly related to this project, but I couldn't resist, seeing that they were finally back in production.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10604 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=10604)
I promised some links to the Conquistador figures I'll be using for the project, and so, here you are. As with the Aztecs, these are all Eureka sculpts. I am very pleased with them, my objection to the scarcity of clean-shaven types not withstanding. Very nice figures, they stand up well with the Aztecs, and have just as much personality and deep cast detail. Should prove to be very enjoyable to paint.
First,an officer casting done by Eureka. Probably my least favorite of the range I ordered, still a nice figure, and I'm sure he'll paint up well regardless.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=9225 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=9225)
Next, a standard bearer. Very nice fig, this. I intend to do his flag as painted linen, using a method I learned from Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9226 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9226)
I also picked up the Priest figure. My initial plans are to use this fellow as the "Good" guy, the one who has to rescue innocents rather than plunder/kill in order to achieve his objectives.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9228 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9228)
Unfortunately, this is the only "man of the cloth" in the Conquistador range. However, Eureka also makes a range of "hooded/cowled cultists" who look very much the part of Renaissance era Monks. I ordered four of these. They match up nicely in size, although they are slightly older sculpts, so still use the Slotta-Base type bases that Eureka miniatures originally had, rather than the integral bases that most of their sculpts now come with.
These should be extremely flexible figs. They'll go well for a variety of periods, and as I already have a group of angry Bavarian nuns for my Wahehe War games... well, the possibilities are endless;)
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_140&products_id=1815 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_140&products_id=1815)
I ordered several of the "Swordsmen in Armor" and "Swordsmen in Quilted Armor" figs. A lot of dynamic poses here; characterful, energetic, just brilliant for Swashbuckling type games. Very pleased with these.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9220 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9220)
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9221 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9221)
Next, some Halberdiers. Again, very nice work on these, I think. Unlike some period figs I could speak of, these actually come with
solid, well cast weapons. I don't have to buy a separate "accessory pack", nor do I have to fool about with wire spears and hammers. They are open handed, though, which is great for having some options to play around with.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9222 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9222)
Finally, my favorite figs in the range. These were what sold me on the Eureka Conquistadors. The arquebus men! These are perfect for the period, and the detail is stunning. I actually had the pleasure of excavating pieces of weapons just like these a few years ago, and seeing some reproductions fired not long after. Impressive, if bulky, piece of equipment. The only Conquistadors I know of that come with the firing platform for the weapon; TAG doesn't seem to do them, and I don't think the Foundry Conquistadors have them, either.
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9224 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9224)
Were I to add to this collection, I think I'd pick up one or two of the dog handlers:
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9232 (http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_693&products_id=9232)
Not crazy about the handler himself, but the dogs are great!
That's where I am at this point. I am still waiting on the terrain from Stonehouse Miniatures, but will get some photos of the pieces when I receive them, and post them here. Not sure when they'll arrive - Stonehouse is one of those Internet based companies that doesn't send email receipts, so... while I'm certain they got my order, not sure when or if the items have shipped yet *grumble*.
I am also planning to pick up some magnetic bases for these fellows this weekend, after which point I can finally begin painting the suckers. Hope to have some eye candy for you soon.
-Doc
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A nice collection, if you check on that Chronofus link he has a lot fo un released Conquistadors which would fit in too in nice poses a little later as they are Portuguese but some are very nice.
On dogs, the nicest I have seen and use are the Vendel Mastiff
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/TheFeatheredSerpentProject/TheFinalStagesFallOfTenochtitlan#5085280854212065170
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You're right, LTD, those Mastiffs are great. I'm going to have to look into those. I bet they'd work well with some Ngoloks/Tibetans for Back of Beyond type games too, and for Romans, and... Good find!
Looked for those unreleased conquistadors, couldn't find them. Any suggestions? Were they Foundry minis, or from another mfg?
-Doc
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They are Eureka :D but not on general release, I sent a pleading e-mail to Nic at Eureka who is a great bloke and used the photos form Chronofus forum to help me place the order. From what I understand not all are released until Erueka beleive they have a complete range and the studio miniatures are painted (which is a great idea) hence not on their website
Best bet is to drop him a line first and link him to your thread here as I am sure he would be very interested in it. There are also some unreleased Tlaxcalans and a cople of Aztecs on Chronofus site, I think he buys into getting pre-releases and is a wealth on knowledge on lots of Eureak figures and eye candy
http://www.chronofus.net/php/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19
Regards
Karl.
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The Mastiffs are ideal for lots of periods, reportedly Romans and Ancient Britons used them, you can use them for medieval as hunting dogs, Henry V111 and Elizabeth used them for war and in Ireland and cotland and then you have the new world :D
Vendel were recently bought over in the UK and I think it is Stafford games who sell them now
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Check out the TAG Conquistadors (spanish threads) and also the Neopolitan Pike (with a swap to halberds would make good conquistadors too
http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=5
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Shame really, 'cos if Copplestone had finished off the full intended range of 20 or so packs, and then gone onto the Aztecs...
Well, let's just say that Copplestone-sculpted Aztecs would have been worth seeing.
Wrong - Mark never had the intention to do Meso or South Americans. The range was split up between us both with him doing the Europeans and I would have done the rest of the range, working through the corresponding Foundry book.
And he was there as well when I was sacked because of the pose of a single miniature - which btw to my opinion was one of the best in that range - and what happened there and was said there was the reason for the "exodus" of the sculptors who were working for Foundry< at that time - Copplestone, Perrys, etc.
JO
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Thanks for the leads, LTD.
Jo -
What was the sculpt they sacked him about?
-Doc
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AZ2/3 Cuauhtli’s Veteran Warriors -bottom right miniature.
JO
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Its mad Josef I have used that figure for elite warriors, slinger leader and allies I cant see what is wrong with him
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His left leg is "said" not to be straight!
Foundry style = one leg straight the other bent for movement like with the old High Gothic statues with one leg being "Standbein" (free translation = standing leg, means on this is put the weight of the body) and the other being "Spielbein" /= playing leg , means this one ghives the aspect of motion)
I dared to argue so I was butt-f***** and sacked
JO
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Foundry style = one leg straight the other bent for movement like with the old High Gothic statues with one leg being "Standbein" (free translation = standing leg, means on this is put the weight of the body) and the other being "Spielbein" /= playing leg , means this one ghives the aspect of motion)
Oh, so they didn't like that it didn't have the usual unnatural pose that does not in any way convey realistic motion?
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F-ing ridiculous, Josef. I can't believe they fired you over that - and it's apparently still being sold... sounds like a typical Foundry "ego" case...
It's a very nice sculpt, by the way, which makes me all the more incredulous.
-Doc
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Another brief update.
I am still very much alive, and the project is kicking along, albeit slowly. I had been waiting for some word on my terrain from Stonehouse Miniatures, which was apparently delayed due to an issue with the convention season; however, the pieces are on their way, much to my delight.
I am still short the urban buildings from Acheson (budget means I haven't ordered them yet, so not their fault by any means!) and my Jaguar Warriors, which I ordered from Eureka about a week and a half ago. Normally Eureka is very fast, but California has been going through a lot of issues, some of them involving payment of postal employees, so I strongly suspect that may be the reason for the delay here.
I have completed some painting in the last few days. So far, there are four Huaxtec suits and four Franciscan Friars finished, with four Native Bearers very near completion, and some Conquistadors in light armor just behind. Most of the Aztec shields from Eureka are blank, so I've been using VVV Shield Decals for them; the Conquistador shields have a lot of surface detail, and no need for said transfers. The painting is being done with a mix of Vallejo, P3, and GW. I think that P3 is by far the superior product, if not for the limited range compared to the other two.
Anyway, I'll have some photos posted for you straight away, soon as I have the camera charged. Tomorrow is also the first public playtest of this version of my soon-to-be published Mexican-American War rules, and I'll try to get some photos posted here on the forum for those interested, assuming they come out:)
Thank you all for the support and interest. Hopefully this will all come out well in the end.
-Doc
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I'm looking forward to seeing the first pictures Doc.
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Before I begin a long rambly chat (I do expect it will be long before I finish), perhaps I'd best say hi first :O I rarely use the net these days except ebay, Abe and wargamerau, so apologies before hand if I post and forget and disappear. I tend to be involved in offline things and online tends to be neglected alot. I came across this post while doing a search for other material, and was intrigued enough to register and respond.
The first major point to make before beginning is that like other scholars rooting out the truth of the Aztecs, there is an intense baying against the romanticised ideals and errors of the historians of the 1800's and early 1900's, many of which perpetuate continually in semi scholastic works through to today. Reading the 16th century source documents dispels most of them easily, but clowns like Pohl still persist to regurgitate unthought out and unresearched material. The best and most accurate work is still by Heath, majorly helped by his excellent and wargamery mind. Hassig contains some errors but for wargamining purposes is at least useable in the campaign sections. Scholastic works need to contest some of his basic assumptions even in the campaigns but for gaming, we don't care that much :) His assumptions campaigns only occured post yearly cultivation needs a big stick taken to it, and other erros occur, but I digress.
For the city itself, I'm sure you know it ran on a regular grid of streets and cross streets with long thin blocks,alternating with canals. Generically every few streets coincided with a canal so that there was a road each side of the canal. Each block faced onto a road where the main commoner residential 'complex' was built on or near to the street front. Each residential complex for an extended family consisted of a number of small boxy rooms, one for each family unit, all melded together with common walls. Commonly there were 3-5 of these boxes in a grouping often adjoining a sizeable walled courtyard. Facing the street was only one entry portal and commonly no windows. There may be no street entry but a wide pathway going down one side of the structure to allow a side entry a distance form the street. A second or third entry faced the rear of the alotment. Some of the boxes may infact be adjoining the main complex but entered by a totally different entry so that it can be considered a granny flat tacked on the side but with no direct access to everyone else. It made it very hard to do much for the Spanish as they were all dead ends, hence it was easier to demolish them and prevent their reuse after a Spanish retreat. All these had internal roof access for structural repairs/waterproofing. At the rear of each allotment*usually* was a small plot chinampa. Contrary to popular thought the city didn't come close to self supporting by chinampa, the region to the south of the lake kept the city fed. It has been speculated these smallish plots provided a small regular supply of fresh vegatables for religious purposes, but I tend to more they just liked to garnish their dried corn with fresh veges and coincidentally keep a small crop of green corn for certain rites. It should be remembered chinampas were harvested at least *twice* per year, sometimes more depending on the crop.
The traditional chinampa for rural agriculture existed in the south east and north west of the city. These are barely big enough to self support. They had the same residential complex but much more spaced out with alot of chinampa round, so much that these areas wouldn't do for skirmish at all. The rest of the city consisted of urban residential plots as described above. Original rate records for the immediate subsequent colonial period show the former layouts reasonably well, including the building floorplans :) As a generalisation a significant anti flooding dyke perhaps a metre (probably a touch more) in height run round the city from the north west causeway into western Tlateololca along the north shore, then down the east shore and across the southern shore to the southern causeway. This is seperate to the Nezahuacoyotl dike further east. A large canoe terminus/wharfy thing was on the eastern shore directly west of the Templo Mayor. Post conquest it was where the brigantines remained till they vanish from history.
For terrestrial farm plots do not forget particulalry to the drier portions of the valley, the crops were surrounded by a 'hedge' of aloe,a nice spikey cavalry barrier :) The downhill sides also had an shallow earth mound to catch water.
The tradition for almost all religious structures was to found them on raised ground. (closer to god probably). Many many shrines dotted the open landscape on top of every slight rise. The priests of Tenochtitlan, and presumably every major centre, performed a nightly exodus to go and perform personal blood letting on them. Within the city I would assume this still holds true. Religious complexes within the city, including those in Tlatelolca, were surrounded by a serpent wall which had religious significance of its own. Tlateoloca's temple had only been reconstructed in living memory after being destroyed following the rebellion/framing of Moquihuix. Monty 2, after persecuting the Tlatelolcans for abit relented and let them rebuild their temple. Not often mentioned is the fact the Tenochtitlans surrendered long before the siege was completed, the normal people (probably the older ousted calpixque families) actually rebelling against their leadership. It was the Tlatelolcans who fought on after Cuauhtemoc offered them ulitmate rule, he being tied with the Tlatelolcan dynasty anyway. Further intensifying the rivalry was the fact the Tlatelolcans did not participate early siege as it 'wasn't their fight.' They had to be induced to join. Do not down play a Tenochca/Tlatelolcan rivalry in a demo game :)
Aside from the snake wall around the temple complex, each temple complex in the city contained a number of sub temples. The tenochca part of the city had 4 sub complexes plus the templo mayor, plus many smaller single temples, say 5 per sub complex scattered throughout the quarter. The Tlateololcans I can't say off the top of my head. They may have had just the one major temple complex. Each temple grouping had an adjoining skullrack and priest quarters. It could be assumed they also contained an eagle warrior complex, but I'd stop that at the 4 sub complexes and leave those from being attached to the scattered individual temples. Adjoining the temple complexes were the appropriate ruler's palaces. Clearly the emperor's palaces next to the templo mayor, and calpixque (calpulli leaders) complexes next to the sub temple complexes. These calpixque complexes included the local court, meeting hall etc. The meeting hall (tecpan) for Tlatelolca was a few blocks to the east of the temple. Nearby would be both the calmecac (priestly and lordly training schools) and the telpochcalli (everybody schooled there, lords and non lords). Also don't forget the Quetzalcoatl temples were nothing more than circular huts with a portico :) Easily found in a passable form in many Dark Ages scenic ranges. Paint to suit with the banded colours and a dragon mouth entry.
It should be remembered the calpixque were all purged by Monty 2 on coronation, and replaced by his own noble muppets. I believe it was with good reason he feared rebellion in the city throughout his reign. The subject is oft mentioned in the histories but little detailed. :(
Re the cannibalism, rife among the warrior nobility, forbidden to everyone else. Do not forget the society was rigidly segregated, no doubt Monty 2 would have had a decapodian mobile oppression palace of he could have made one. The empire was more than despotic, and overly romanticised as a polished civilised one who just happened to have human sacrifice. There is an underlying 'evil' among the Tenochca rulers culminating in Monty 2 that is not plainly shown or exampled in any discussion of them except by cranks like myself, which I feel places them as the worst/evilest/baddest successful society in earth's history. Whether there is a god or not, kharma wins eventually. Sacrifical cannibalism existed pre Aztecs, but was taken to new heights by Tlacaelel, and was responded to by their regular opponents who did the same thing in revenge for what the Tenochcas were doing to them. It spiralled into absurdity.
Re the Flower Wars, the idea it was all a jolly knightly joust with medieval ransoming of prisoners replaced with sacrificing of prisoners is way off mark. The Flower Wars were genuine wars with an intent to kill. Late in his career Monty 2 started to lean toward making them wars of conquest but just couldn't pull it off. The written descriptions give more than enough evidence of killing in flower wars, and anyone claiming it was all capture needs to explain why bows and slings were used, and why wounded captives were killed on the field as being 'broken' goods unfit for sacrifice. The whole captive thing is a romantic ideal as we hear it, as most captives were taken post combat during the rout or following intense exhaustion from prolonged engagements. Many examples are given of captives being taken post combat, including for example Nezahuacoyotl's second credited captive being a woman, others taking children and having to buy a sacrifical slave to take their place for the gladiatorial sacrifice combat back in Tenochtitlan. It should also be remembered death in battle was preferred to any other death. It was idealised beyond all else. Death by sacrifice took you to a whole other afterlife. If you surrendered in battle you knew you were dying another way regardless. At least 6 of Monty 2's closest relatives died in flower wars including the huehue tlacatecatl who was killed during a rout. I sometimes wonder if he was secretly killing off rivals by having the battles manipulated.
For figures, sadly the Aztec expert is left with a mish mash of inaccurate figures. There is no complete or accurate range in 25/28mm and that is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future. To get a passable mix you will need to cherry pick from the Eureka/Foundry/TAG/Outpost ranges and accept then that they are still inaccurate but at least you will get most warrior types. TAG also have god awful pack content groupings. As with every Aztecy miniature I've seen, everyone totally messes up the non priest hairstyles and jewelry into random wierdness. Imagine 1815 French in bicornes and steel helms. All in all though no deal breaker. You will need to convert some suited warriors to bows (if you want, re-bent paper clips or thick wire will do) and absolutely no one does warriors literally chucking rocks. And you thought the stories of hails of stones and arrows meant sling stones. There are more descriptions of warriors throwing rocks than there are of slinging stones :O Several of the TAG and Foundry open handed poses work for adding rocks :)
For makeup of formations, remember the duality of jaguars/eagles and tlacatecatl/tlacochcalcaltl. ie make them in PAIRS. Also remember 1-3 captive warrior fall within the 19-21 yr age range commonly, so most of your noble warriors are eagle level but not necessarily in eagle/jaguar suit. They could be just wearing a plain feather suit with the RIGHT hairstyle. Most commoners are zero captive warriors and MOST are non trained. I know someone in the 1800's said everyone was trained in war, but failed to read the source properly and the echo still travels with us. If you are grading your warriors somehow in Gloire, I'd suggest sticking with very broad rankings or you will get hung up on technical differences that have no impact on actual gameplay. For Aztecs I'd suggest non combatants, trainees (1-3 captives), eagles (4+ captives) and cuachiqueh/otomi (dedicated warriors) though the eagles may well be just as good as cuachiqueh if not better because they are smarter :) Eagles may play a command role for trainees/non combatants, other eagles and cuachiqueh. Tlacatecatls command units in conjunction with a tlacochcalcatl. The Tlatelolcans also used women dressed in suits as decoys. You may use the owl suit warrior as a holy suit as the natives did late seige. There is only 1 of these suits and I'd let it continue to be used with some bonus as long as the wearer continues to succeeed.
As Lowtar has said, (though his native numbers are much too low) the Spanish are vastly outnumbered by a broad mix of allied native cities hungry for final revenge against the Tenochcas. Late siege the Spanish split into handfuls accompanied by large groups of natives. The Tlatelolcans started picking them off in these small numbers, so much so they started wearing native disguises so they weren't singled out :O He is also correct about the significant 'beheading' of great warriors by the continual wars and disease and defections.
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WOW! i just lurned alot there, thanks CDM
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See guys told you he knows his stuff
welcome Chronofus :D
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Indeed. Much helpful information CDM, thank you.
A brief update on where I am with painting. To date, I have the following completed:
4 x Jesuits
4 x Conquistadors with Sword and Buckler
4 x Huaxtec Suit Warriors
4 x Aztec Bearers
4 x Eagle Warriors
Currently on the painting table, I've got 3 Conquistadores with Arquebus and firing stand, and 1 Conquistador standard bearer. Next Aztecs will probably be some basic armored novices.
Also received my terrain order from Stonehouse. Quite nice. Most of it pre-painted, but in a stone grey color, which doesn't really match the color it'd be in around the time of the Conquest. Certainly passable, but I am considering repainting the buildings in white with some colored accents. I am neither crazy enough nor talented enough to paint each and every mural...
I am still trying to get my camera to work, but will have shots of this stuff for you as soon as possible.
-Doc
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(...) 4 x Jesuits (...)
Don't want to be picky, but I hope they aren't meant to represent actual Jesuits as these guys weren't around in 1521. The Order was founded in 1534 and officially accepted in 1537, and they were introduced to America not before the late 16th century.
Anyway, would be great to see some pics of your efforts so far. I'm very interested.
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Call them Dominicans if you like. I was using a placeholder name:)
Will have pictures up asap.
-Doc
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Well, let's just say that Copplestone-sculpted Aztecs would have been worth seeing.
Wrong - Mark never had the intention to do Meso or South Americans. The range was split up between us both with him doing the Europeans and I would have done the rest of the range.
Copplestone-sculpted Aztecs would be worth seeing.
Maybe one day... ::)
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FINALLY! Some news and some pics.
Here are several pics of what I've got done over the last month or so in regards to the project. Because of a number of factors beyond my control (and some well within the control of certain vendors), critical pieces of the project were missing until relatively recently, some orders were filled incorrectly, etc,etc. That, combined with the starting of Black Army means that I haven't had as much time to work on this as I'd like, so I may not get it done in time for Kublacon. At the very least, it will be done in time for Pacificon, at the end of the summer.
The figs shown here still need to have their bases finished and a final cote of matte sealer, but otherwise are ready to go!
All miniatures here are Eureka pieces. They shipped quickly, beautifully, and with minimal prep. Great stuff. Again, I'll break this up into a couple posts to try to cut down on loading time.
First, some Eagle Warriors by Eureka. I am very happy with my work on these.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0594.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0595.jpg)
Native Bearers. These will be used as baggage markers for the Conquistadors.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0596.jpg)
More in the next post.
-Doc
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Conquistadors with sword and buckler in light/cotton armor.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0597.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0598.jpg)
Huaxtec suit Warriors (these are Aztecs too, the suit is known as the 'Huaxtec Suit'):
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0599.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0600.jpg)
And finally, Father Garaputo and the Dominican Friars.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0601.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc178/Mithras77/100_0602.jpg)
I have had a lot of fun with these, and hope to get more done soon. At the moment, I'm up to my neck in historical terrain for my MAW demo at the show, so I've been taking a break from these and working on less historical subjects (mainly Pulp Sci-Fi)
Comments welcome, as always.
-Doc
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Pretty darn good if I do say so myself. I was looking forward to seeing how the Eureka mins would turn out and am not dissaponted. I am thinking of sending off an order if not to then deffantly tommrow. Going to restart an old game of Riddile of steel with some of thouse guys.
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Thank you kindly, Commissar. I'm glad you like 'em. More coming soon.
But overall, yes, I think they're definitely worth the price. The best I've seen, really. I got in a shipment of the Jaguar Knights recently, and those are quite good, too, as are all the suit wearers, novices, etc.
-Doc