Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: vodkafan on September 08, 2016, 08:37:27 AM
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I have decided I am going to go for it. Although I am not a wargaming virgin, (haven't played for 6 years though!) I have always before managed to play on other people's tables.
I have decided that the biggest table for 28mm gaming I can accommodate is 4 x 4 feet . That is the easy part. I started thinking this morning about what essential basic terrain I will need.
The list has escalated alarmingly already.
Hills (I plan to make these myself using the modular method shown by Matakishi in his teahouse)
Roads
A River
Trees
The road and river I plan to get from S&A scenics. I am not keen on their trees though.
This is not even thinking about buildings. For the VSF scenario I plan I will need to build a defensible Lighthouse and Post Office ....
Appealing to the experienced wargamers on here, is there anything I have missed from my basic list?
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It very much depends on the sort of games you plan to cram in that space. I only realistically have the same space to play with when I colonise the living room table with two sheets of MDF. One side is hex painted for 1:144th WW1 aerial battles (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/WW1%20Aerial/JG1triplanes.jpg), the other side plain for wargames on terra-firma.
If you go for DBA style battles where single stands of figures represent companies or regiments, then terrain features are more abstract concepts and can be rendered very simply and to ground scale NOT figure scale.
For skirmish games and slightly larger, the scenery often counts as cover and for LOS so has to be rendered at the same scale of slightly less so as to suit the figures used. In 15mm you can get more bang for your buck so to speak in a limited space
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Comrade%20Blyukher/TSR004.jpg)
For medieval skirmishes fences, hedges, cornfields, corn stooks, dry stone walls, ditches etc. can all make or break an ambush or assault. Many historic battles often hinged around a seemingly innocuous terrain feature like a ditch or fence...(plus they look good!) You can quite easily rack up a considerable stock of terrain.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/IMAG1019_zpsf923a5eb.jpg)
I share your pain. After spending years in 15mm-mode often spent recreating elaborate set piece features like this Chinese-style BOB fortress
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Chinese%20fortress/khovd008.jpg)
I now find myself without many of the basics for even a simple 25mm skirmish game. I have a bewildering to-do list of 25mm terrain not helped by (probably over)ambitious plans and time spent on entire castles, big defensive works or singular scratchbuilds. I now have to consider lower level games and want to represent a small hamlet (4-5 scratch-built half-timbered buildings) etc. I have 3 copy boxes just full of trees, but the to-do list still seems pretty endless...
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If you are getting rivers and roads, a bridge would come in handy. Also a patch or two of marsh and some linear obstacles like hedges, fences or walls.
It so much depends on the period/location for your games and also the scale of the games, eg skirmish or big battles?
For example, hedges are good for Britain and much of NW Europe for most periods (medieval to present day) but not a lot of use for Greece or Italy. On the other hand, rough stone walls would be suitable for almost anytime, anyplace (unless you are gaming North America when fences would be more appropriate).
If you could give an indication of your interests we might be able to be more helpful.
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I agree with Sunjester that fixing on a specific geographic location and period can add flavour, particularly if you can find architectural details to reinforce the look. For my 15mm Greek War of Independence project I found an image of an Ottoman pack-horse bridge in Epirus to model and a small Greek orthodox church. Dry stone walls, mediterranean tiled houses, sangars, rock outcrops, and fir trees add to the effect while still only filling in the basic terrain inventory... (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Greek%20War%20of%20Independence/gwi2.jpg)
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Thanks Sunjester and Sukhe-Bator. Both good replies.
I had not even thought of a bridge or walling/hedges but I can see now I must add those.
I am limiting myself to 28mm. The periods I want to do are:
Colonial/VSF using both skirmish rules and perhaps The Natives Are Restless Tonight rules. Thinking about the Congo rules too.
WW2 skirmish but have also always wanted to try Crossfire
Naoleonics with up to a brigade per side sometime in the future, although I might be limited by my table size
So, no medievals/ancients/modern
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If I were starting again I would set all my games in one location so, for example, you want to do Colonial, Napoleonuc and WWII, go for North Africa where you could do Sudan, Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign And The North African Campaign. At a later date you could also do the Crusades, all with the same scenery.
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So either deserty or jungly terrain or a bit of both sounds in order. WW2 in N Africa, The Pacific or Burma theatres.
Colonial could be anywhere in N or W Africa, Egypt, the Middle East or Afghanistan, even China...
Morocco and parts of Tunisia are most heavily used by film makers... Ouarzazate and Merzouga in particular. If you want to go all Sci-Fi then most of the original Tatooine footage for Star Wars was shot in Tunisia and Luke's home was actually a cave hotel!
N Africa, Ethiopia, W Africa and the Arabian peninsular have particular architectural styles of mud brick and adobe architecture well worth looking at...
The Nile delta also has some peculiarities, like 50 foot high conical dovecotes in the villages. I researched them for my Napoleonic Alexandrian Expedition project
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Alexandria%201807/DeRollsdefendAlHamad.jpg)
Like joroas says, opt for a particular region you like then fill the terrain inventory and it will stand you in good stead for a number of periods. For more verdant areas, palm trees, scrub and light jungle type foliage, and more deserty, rocky outcrops for the barren areas... There'd be little or no fencing (lack of wood for building materials) but some mud brick walling close by the village and probably smaller woven fence panels/hurdles, to keep livestock off vegetable patches etc. with an emphasis on shade...
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I think from a starting out perspective, the 'to do' list can look daunting, overwhelming and possibly lead to abandonment.
Far better to create some 'for now' terrain, so that you can get some game in and when funds and time allow, start to replace the 'for now' terrain with something more to your liking.
For now, use gravel at a river crossing to make a ford. Use strips of green pan scoured (pound shop) glued onto lolly sticks for hedges. Make fences from BBQ skewers. Do buildings from card (cereal boxes) or foam core or paper printed buildings. For trees a trip to a local rail model shop will get you enough to get started or use dense cushion foam, ripped into chunks, skewed on BBQ sticks and glued and flocked.
there is nothing like actual playing to keep motivation going.
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Sage words from Normsmith... playing will also offer up suggestions for scenarios and terrain ideas will present themselves in manageable chunks. With a bit of foresight and planning the butterfly effect will not occur and every terrain piece will constructively add to your inventory and expand the scope of possible scenarios...
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I am limiting myself to 28mm. The periods I want to do are:
Colonial/VSF using both skirmish rules and perhaps The Natives Are Restless Tonight rules. Thinking about the Congo rules too.
WW2 skirmish but have also always wanted to try Crossfire
Naoleonics with up to a brigade per side sometime in the future, although I might be limited by my table size
Get a farm. Perfect for The Natives are Restless Tonight and Crossfire and easy to work into a VSF or Napoleonic game. The component parts can be used separately (out buildings and fields for instance) to add flavour to an open battlefield.
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What I did is progress towards urbanization. So start out by making sure you have the elements for a game out in the wilderness or countryside (they are easy unless you are going to get obsessive about realism - just buy some trees or shrubs, or make some basic ones). Then I moved to small buildings which could stand on their own, like farmhouses, cottages, shacks, or outbuildings, then I started towards village stuff, like a local inn, simple village houses (i.e. multi-story) or local shops, which is where I stalled out as I haven't been making more scenery. The plan after that is to progress to bigger, more distinctly urban buildings.
The idea is that all buildings have some range of use - trees, shrubs and fences can be used anywhere, farm cottages can be used in the countryside, but also in villages and towns, village and town buildings can also be used in cities, and so on. They're only out of place in a city proper and even then you might make it work as an outbuilding depending on what architectural style you're going for. Unless it was truly pastoral (the classic thatched cottage, say), it could always be the office of a junkyard or somesuch. Full-sized city buildings are the narrowest, since they can only be used in cities, so they were an end-stage thing.
Also I went for Tudor-style buildings, with a few Victorian elements fudged in, which allows them to be used for a huge number of periods (anywhere in Western or even Central Europe, from late medieval through to today, as well as fantasy gaming) as well as some generic wooden shacks which can fit in anywhere. Tudor half-timber buildings might be generic as anything when it comes to wargaming, but they are versatile as anything. Detail bits like horse carts, dungheaps, lampposts, postboxes, cars or other clutter can then be used to "date" the table more precisely.
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If I look at my own mistakes regarding terrain I would say that you are about to take a £2-3000 decision. That is minimally what I spent at buildings and terrain I no longer use. The "end-solution" for me was to decide on a format, which in my case, since I only focus on skirmish actions, is 100 x 70 cm. I built a frame around a plywood sheet of that size and then I build terrain tiles of mdf fitting to this format, usually 2-3 tiles. These tiles are typically rather flat terrain that can be populated with trees, Buildings etc. Bullding this type of limited size boards is great fun, sometimes even more fun that painting miniatures. Materials are cheap, EPS, Wood glue, paint, sand/gravel and flock. Try it you´ll like it ;)
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I wouldn't say a river is a must-have. I still haven't got one, after 12 years of gaming, and I'm just getting up to the "wouldn't it be nice to have a river?" stage. I think FramFramson had a great idea with the "going towards urbanization" plan.
But, then, it depends on what rules you use. For example I never missed having no roads or hedges when playing Warhammer, but when I started gaming WW2 they shot right up on the priority list, with tanks benefiting from going on roads and infantry benefiting from hiding behind hedgerows.
Marshes/swamps can be easy to make, I made mine from CDs with milliput, sand and clear varnish for the watery parts.
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Felt and card are very cheap ways to improvise roads and rivers.
Cut up bits of doormat make excellent cornfields.
Gravel from the garden for rough ground.
My first bridges were made of cardboard, was were my first buildings (I still have, and use them).
My hedges are still made if cut up pan scourers, based and lightly dry brushed.
But yes, your absolute basic terrain is hills, woods and buildings.
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I wouldn't say a river is a must-have. I still haven't got one, after 12 years of gaming, and I'm just getting up to the "wouldn't it be nice to have a river?" stage. I think FramFramson had a great idea with the "going towards urbanization" plan.
Marshes/swamps can be easy to make, I made mine from CDs with milliput, sand and clear varnish for the watery parts.
I think for me a river is a good start. There are so many scenarios you can do with just a river alone, either getting your forces across it or deciding to take the time to go around it to reach a bridge or not etc...about the CD marshes I seem to recall an article about making those somewhere, maybe it was in a GW book.
Yes the "going towards urbanization " approach is a good one because it leaves the question of which buildings to build quite a long way down the line.
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...about the CD marshes I seem to recall an article about making those somewhere, maybe it was in a GW book.
I posted this tutorial (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=57431.0) three years ago. ;)
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I posted this tutorial (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=57431.0) three years ago. ;)
Thanks mrtn, the article I saw had little rocks and shrubs incorporated. I like yours, but I have a thing about not liking things perfectly circular so i probably won't use CDs for mine.
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A river is an interesting question because a lot of it depends on what games you play. For some rules sets a river will add a lot to tactical options and gameplay, but in others they do nothing at all.
I still have no river myself, but in part this is because I've been hemming and hawing forever over whether I will keep my terrain mat or eventually move to a terrain board system so I can have actual contoured terrain (even if I do, I need to do more buildings first as those are much more important). I don't want to build it twice! Since we mainly play Pulp Alley (small board skirmish), the ponds and tarns I have have been more than enough to add water to our games, no river needed.
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Thanks mrtn, the article I saw had little rocks and shrubs incorporated. I like yours, but I have a thing about not liking things perfectly circular so i probably won't use CDs for mine.
I'm sure you could use most of the tutorial on an oblong base. ;) Or just take what you want from it, it's not as if I invented anything extraordinary. Sharing tips is fun, but it's not as if I expect anyone to make something looking exactly like mine. In fact, that would be kinda weird. o_o
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Massive change of direction:
At least in the beginning, I have decided to do my rivers using the method as used by Nevermore here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=93299.0
I will do it even cheaper than Nevermore has, by simply painting one side of my base blue rather than using textured vinyl. The other side will be painted desert sand.
The only problem I can see is when I don't want a raised bank on one side, for instance a flooded marshy area, but I am sure I can find ways around this.
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A bag of lichen is terrifically useful
Lay it out in rows for hedges along fields and roads (fields are cut up door mats roads are strips of fabric)
Use it to line rivers for bankside brush (my rivers are clear plastic painted blue on the underside)
Put it among trees for undergrowth in woods
It just helps tie things together
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James brings up a good point. I think the main "starter" I'd go with is the cloth/table the game will be presented on. At the moment I'm a die-hard fan of the recent wave of printed "mousepad" mats, but you'd do just as well with felt with some scattered bits and spray paint etc. I use lichen to make all of my trees.
http://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com/2014/06/drakes-branch-gets-some-new-terrain.html
^A post where you can see the trees. The simple woodland scenics armatures with lichen tossed on top (mounted to mdf bases as well). The lichen isn't even glued on, just stuffed into the spiky parts of the armature. This means I can fix trees, make them "dead" in an instant or swap colour lichen if I need/want. Super simple and effective.
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Hey that's brilliant!
I've often thought about getting some fall trees or leafless for winter
Just need a bag of fall coloured lichen and armatures!
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OK the saga continues. Just wasted 2 hours of my precious hobby time trying to source a 4 x 4 ft board. 4 x 4 shall be the size; and the size shall be 4 x 4. Thou shall not suffer to exist a 2 x 5 or a 1 x 7.
I thought it would be an easy matter to get a single piece of MDF cut to size, as the simplest option.
I don't have a car so had to walk out of town to the nearest Wickes and Homebase stores. My Homebase don't do the wood and stuff in large pieces any more: and Wickes had 8 x 4 sheets but they don't do cutting any more.
Also could not find 9mm thick cork tiles; only flimsy 3mm thin ones, ludicrously expensive.
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Welcome to modern life. Oddly with everything we have available...it's never what you need. I struggle with the same thing on occasion. :?
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Can I suggest that you get two 4x2 boards...easier to store and cut
Recommend you use min of 9mm thick or even better 12mm
B&Q do a cutting service
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Can I suggest that you get two 4x2 boards...easier to store and cut
Recommend you use min of 9mm thick or even better 12mm
B&Q do a cutting service
No B&Q in my town unfortunately. I don't have a car to get to the next town.
Yep was going to go with 12mm thick .
Wickes did have 4 x 2 boards ready cut. The problems I can foresee if my baseboard is in two pieces is that if placed side by side on top of the table (which is 2ft 6 by 3 ft 6) I have in my bedsit, they will constantly be in danger of getting knocked off during a game. I would need some way of fastening the two firmly together. A one piece baseboard is the easiest option. Storage is not a problem I can stuff it behind the wardrobe.
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I went with 4 x 4'x2' boards using 9mm MDF.
The 9mm is fine, and is a fair bit lighter. Do be aware of the weight and size of a 4'x4'x 12mm piece of MDF. As well as storage space you need to factor in getting it in to place.
If you place the join of the two boards in the middle of the 3'6" length then you should be fine. If it seems a bit prone to moving them some gaffer tape is a good quick method of joining
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Alternatively, you could stiffen the narrow sides with strips of something else... I find gaffer tape and MDF don't go that well.
A) get two 4' lengths of timber edging/picture frame moulding and clamp it in place with small G clamps at the ends.
B) use two 4' lengths of the plastic cable trunking/ducting/channel used for cabling/edging like the links. There should be one of approx the right width available (I'd take a tape to Wickes and recce to see if there's one that'll do)
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Mini-Trunking-White-25x16mmx2m/p/109644
http://www.screwfix.com/p/white-u-pvc-channels-1000-x-14mm-3-pack/4390h#product_additional_details_container
simply slide the U shape over the board edges when you need to fit them together (don't forget to leave a slight border if you are using texture/flock) - simples!
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If you have space problems then some of the old model railway baseboard solutions might be for you.
You could try using paste/decorating tables. You can get them for around £10 to £15 apiece. They are lightweight softwood frames with hardboard tops and foldable legs. They even have carrying handles on the sides. They are usually discounted as being too long and narrow but there's nothing to stop you modifying them
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4831787.htm
There are several options;-
a) You could use them as is.
b) As is but with the legs removed if you have a suitable table surface to put them on (add battens at each end to allow for the depth of the central hinges so it'll sit flat).
c) You could turn them upside down, remove the legs that way you could create pre-made framed trays into which you can fit styrofoam terrain boards. You might find the hinges get in the way though and want to remove them. You could always replace them with piano hinge on one of the long sides so it folds the other way.
d) If you get 2 paste tables you could join the four sections together either with dowel pegs/coach bolts/clamps or even piano hinges on the long sides and have multiple fold-open protected terrain boards...
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If you have space problems then some of the old model railway baseboard solutions might be for you.
You could try using paste/decorating tables. You can get them for around £10 to £15 apiece. They are lightweight softwood frames with hardboard tops and foldable legs. They even have carrying handles on the sides. They are usually discounted as being too long and narrow but there's nothing to stop you modifying them
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4831787.htm
There are several options;-
a) You could use them as is.
b) As is but with the legs removed if you have a suitable table surface to put them on (add battens at each end to allow for the depth of the central hinges so it'll sit flat).
c) You could turn them upside down, remove the legs that way you could create pre-made framed trays into which you can fit styrofoam terrain boards. You might find the hinges get in the way though and want to remove them. You could always replace them with piano hinge on one of the long sides so it folds the other way.
d) If you get 2 paste tables you could join the four sections together either with dowel pegs/coach bolts/clamps or even piano hinges on the long sides and have multiple fold-open protected terrain boards...
If I cannot get a single piece of 4 x 4 MDF cut I may do a solution similar in construction to the paste table with space inside, but of a bit heavier spec. I hadn't thought of using that space for terrain storage but that is indeed a very good idea.
The problem with a paste table per se is that it is so lightweight that it is easily knocked by children or clumsy gamers like myself. Great portable board for the 15mm people and smaller though. Thanks for the ideas!
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Alternative...
Make a metal board and attach it to the wall...magnetize everything and play from an over-head view on the wall! lol
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Alternative...
Make a metal board and attach it to the wall...magnetize everything and play from an over-head view on the wall! lol
Er....no. lol
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Alternative...
Make a metal board and attach it to the wall...magnetize everything and play from an over-head view on the wall! lol
I've seen that done. A few years ago a chap I knew painted up Heaven and Hell armies for HOTT and stuck them on a vertical board. The magnets weren't always strong enough for the larger figures....... :o :(
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Magnets can be quite good. I keep my 1/3000th scale ships in metal tins, with battleships in the bottom, cruisers on the sides and destroyers upside down under the lid. The odd one falls off occasionally, but generally it is fine.
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I got my wargaming table sorted today. 12mm MDF, the simplest option. Had to pay for it to be delivered but at lest got it cut to size for free. Now for some terrain....
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I thought it might be of interest to others to tot up how much this project is costing me so far.
12mm MDF Board: £30. The board itself was only £15 but I had no choice but to have it delivered which doubled the price. I got it cut to size for free though. The slim board can be stored out of sight in my room behind the piano, which is an important consideration. Other options I considered would have been cheaper and able for me to carry home in pieces, but when assembled would not have been able to be hidden so easily.
9mm Cork Tiles for modular terrain £72.39 The price of cork has shot through the roof. I had to buy more than £60 worth to get free delivery, so my order includes 12 thinner tiles for making buildings. I still consider this good value as I will have more than for my immediate needs and once made, the terrain will last for many years.
I have also saved @ £30 on not needing to buy a river.
Running total: £102.39
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Bought some tools and stuff today that I will need for the project so must add these costs in
Cheap jigsaw for cutting cork tiles £9.93
Big pot of wood glue £4.99
Heavy stanley knife £4.99
couple of paint tester pots £3.18
pack of cheap paintbrushes £2.47
Running total: £127.95
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More wood glue £5
2 grass terrain mats £12.99
Running total: £145.94
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Haha fun and games cutting out the modular terrain pieces. I burnt out the jigsaw. after only a few cuts. I am going to take it back.
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Gah. :-[
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I guess you get what you pay for.
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just read about your jigsaw burning out - assume it was cutting cork tiles? If it was the cork tiles I am not surprised.
Cork is very flexible and expands when cut - this will effectively mean as you are cutting it will 'grip' the blade. Hence the burning out.
Best way to cut cork is with a very sharp knife.