Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Richard in Sachsen on September 08, 2016, 09:22:03 AM
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I love SAGA. I've always suggested the argument that SAGA is a literary game rather than a historical game. That it is a literary game may also be why SAGA is not to everyone's taste. Nevertheless, the designer Alex Buchel writes in his notes
"The Saga abilities portrayed on the Battle Boards represent our idea of warfare during the Dark Ages when myth and history intermingled and as depicted in the medieval Sagas of Eirkr the Red, Gisli Surgeon or the famous Beowulf." (Buchel SAGA, 70)
This intention is why I felt SAGA went into the wrong direction with Crescent and Cross (notwithstanding The Song of Roland) and why I welcomed, and bought, the Revenants pack. In fact, I firmly believe, that Gripping Beast should produce a Troll and Ogre pack as oneiric beasts and monsters are attested to in Gisli's Saga, Beowulf, and the Saga of King Hrolf Kraki, to name a few. As long as the rules are kept subtle and in the tradition of the sagas and not all-out high fantasy. There are other games that cover that genre well and would, in my opinion, take away from the flavor of the game as I felt Crescent and Cross did.
Therefore I felt much disappointed and consternation when I read which factions will be offered in the new SAGA: Invasions supplement: a long-awaited supplement of the Volkerwanderungzeit, or Great Migration Period.
That faction, of course, would be the Burgundians/Nibelungs. Historically, The Fall of the Burgundians in 437 was not an earth-shattering event such as Adrianople or the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains. It was, however, one of the most significant cultural events of the period. The fall of the Burgundian kingdom was such a traumatic event for the Germanic tribes that they wrote a plethora of Heroic Epics and Sagas either about or referencing the annihilation of the Burgundians.
There is the Saga of the Volsungs as well as Kudrun, Guğrun, Atli's Saga, and references to the event in Beowulf and Thiedriks Saga and many more. And of course, the Middle High German national epic: Das Nibelungenlied.
Now, for a game that strives for "warfare during the Dark Ages when myth and history intermingled," how could they have possibly left out the most important faction of the entire period?
As for heroes, practically all of them are present, especially if you base your game off of the MHG Nibelungenlied: you have Gunther, Gisilher, Gernot, Hagen of Troyes, Volker the Minstrel, Rüdiger, Etzel (Attila, although he really has no clue what is going on), Dietrich of Bern, Hildebrand, just to name a few.
Imagine a game taking off from the point where the Huns, due to Kriemhild's bidding, have already slain all the Nibelung soldiers (around 10,000 in the epic) and Hagen has just slain Attila's son. Imagine using 4 Ground's Great Hall Heorot model for the hall and surrounding it with other dark age buildings and a city wall. You will have one massive game, easily 12 points with just heroes and comitatus - even with all the men-at-arms already dead.
That leads me to a side complaint: you can't find any dismounted Huns other than archer skirmishers from Gripping Beast. I know they loved their horses, but I'm not convinced they took them into banquet halls... well, on second thought... I am using GB skirmishers and Fireforge Steppe Tribes as proxies although plastics are not my first choice.
It's great that the supplement will offer Arthurians, that was greatly needed and I applaud Mr. Buchel for including them. But I'm astounded that the game is missing, what I have argued, is the most culturally significant faction of the Great Migration Period. A faction that, through its demise, influenced Germanic heroic literature for centuries afterwards, and yes, even Anglo-Saxon literature (cf. Beowulf.)
It may be a minor thing, but it is near and dear to my heart as it coincides with my dissertation topic; a cognitive poetic approach to the Germanic dragon-fight, as well as my first published, peer-reviewed article and my current forthcoming article. So, I'm a bit disappointed that the Nibelungs have been left out.
x-posted at Studio Tomahawk
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We've had quite an extensive discussion on SAGA: Invasions and its somewhat twisted angle here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=88820.0). No doubt, it is aimed at a rather 'traditional' market in wargaming.
That said, most "Continental European" historical wargamers are used to adapting anglo-centric rules to their own needs. And I honestly don't see why this wouldn't work with the upcoming SAGA. Do we really need a special character named Siegfried or Hildebrand to emulate their stories on the tabletop? People already happily recycled stats for Arthur, Cú Chulainn or any other hero instead.
Other than that, I don't see what significantly differentiates Burgundians from other "Germanic" people of the period in terms of gaming, i.e. equipment and abilities. Their history may have had some literary impact (if most likely only through much later, Medieval adaptations). In their own time, though, they were a minor player among the dozens of hardly distinguishable factions involved in the desintegration of the Western Empire – in English the works by Guy Halsall on that matter are quite instructive. I'd imagine that in SAGA terms the Saxons will represent (seaborne) raiders while the Gothic battleboard encompasses the traditional view of "Germanic" armies. Thus Burgundians might be represented either way – or even as Britons or, alas, Romans, drawing on their foederati status.
Finally, it is still possible that GB will release supplements catering for some other period 'factions' (silly term). If there is sufficient demand, that is. ;)
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Oh, there will be no problem adapting Saxons, for instance, to the rules. As SAGA is very open to making up your own factions, I envision making a battle board for King Ban and Benoic against the Franks.
You are correct, and I said as much above, that historically the Burgundians are a minor blip. If it were any other historical war-game, I would not even have considered it. The heroes are what make the difference. If we already have heroes from Njal's Saga and Egil's Saga, I would suggest that there is certainly room for Hagen and Gunther. Especially since GB will be making hero castings of Goths, etc.
Nevertheless, the point I wished to stress is that for a game that purports to simulate dark age Heroic Epic and Saga, leaving out the fundamental myth of those epics and sagas (including Beowulf, ca. 700-900 CE) is, kind of, well...
We have the Huns and soon the Goths but it seems that we lost the Nibelungs to the Picts. Obviously, I'll make my own battle board, etc but it won't be near as well done as a game designer would do.
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I clearly don't know enough about the Burgundians, to me they're just "some ancient tribe that gave their name to some medieval duchy".
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It's a French game designed primarily for an Anglophone market. I guess, thanks to movies, comics etc, King Arthur, Beowulf and so on, are well known around the English speaking wolrd, which accounts for a very significant slice of the global miniature wargaming market. I fear the equivalent Germanic figures of myth, legend and pseudo history are not as well known or marketble, probably not even in neighbouring France ;)
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I clearly don't know enough about the Burgundians, to me they're just "some ancient tribe that gave their name to some medieval duchy".
Historically, that's pretty much it. They came, originally, just south of you across the Baltic and were one of the tribes that migrated south settling around Worms. They were christianized around 418 or thereabouts and were in the process of romanization when Aëtius began to see them becoming too powerful. And so in 437 he sent his Hun buddies to ride in and wipe them out. A bit of good ole' Roman treachery. The survivors were resettled south in Gaul in that medieval duchy.
In the course of world events, just another minor blip. But for their neighbors as well as the survivors, it was so traumatic that it gave rise to the legends of Siegfried and the Nibelungs.
Essentially, Siegfried, who held the Nibelung treasure hoard, married a Burgundian princess (Kriemhild/Guğrun) and befriended three brothers (King Gunther, Gernot, Giselher.) He helped Gunther get married (to Brunhild) but soon there was strife between the two royal ladies. They decided to murder Siegfried and keep his treasure for the good of the state and so Gunther sent his champion Hagen of Troyes to do the deed with a spear in Siegfried's back.
They marry Kriemhild off to Attila the Hun. So she plots her revenge, invites her brothers and all his warriors to a great feast in Attila's stronghold and uses her Huns to murder them all. She uses Siegfried's "magic" sword, which was in possession of Hagen, to cut off his head while he was captive and in chains, helpless. One of the Hun allied Gothic heroes declares that such an honorable enemy should not be killed helpless at the hands of a woman, so he turns on Queen Kriemhild and kills her.
Thus ended the Nibelungs
It's a great story in all of it's various western and northern Germanic versions. Kinslaying and revenge, what's not to love?
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It's a French game designed primarily for an Anglophone market. I guess, thanks to movies, comics etc, King Arthur, Beowulf and so on, are well known around the English speaking wolrd, which accounts for a very significant slice of the global miniature wargaming market. I fear the equivalent Germanic figures of myth, legend and pseudo history are not as well known or marketble, probably not even in neighbouring France ;)
I suspect that is at the heart of it. I also suspect that is why they went with the crusades earlier as well. Nothing wrong for that, wise business decisions keep the company around for a long time and I do love Gripping Beast miniatures.
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But aren't most of this cultural heritage later invention ?
More of German identity works than historical fiction that teach us values works (like didactic of Song of Roland or Arthurian Myths).
To be honest In the Migration period they were if not least significant faction - then one of the less interesting and one with virtually non heritage left (except much later tribal poetry working as basis in group identity building).
Militarily or politically not overly interesting and historically poor in sources.
While I would love to read more about Burgundian kingdom anything of substance is difficult to come by (and I have a very wide understanding of literate of substance - I read recently very interesting book about Amal dynasty genealogy in unpreserved works of Casiadorus :)
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But aren't most of this cultural heritage later invention ?
More of German identity works than historical fiction that teach us values works (like didactic of Song of Roland or Arthurian Myths).
To be honest In the Migration period they were if not least significant faction - then one of the less interesting and one with virtually non heritage left (except much later tribal poetry working as basis in group identity building).
Militarily or politically not overly interesting and historically poor in sources.
While I would love to read more about Burgundian kingdom anything of substance is difficult to come by (and I have a very wide understanding of literate of substance - I read recently very interesting book about Amal dynasty genealogy in unpreserved works of Casiadorus :)
Not necessarily. We must be cautious and yet remember that the epics were only later written down by literate Christian monks, that doesn't mean that in a culture of oral tradition, those poems didn't exist. Indeed, for them to be written down in an era of Christian didacticism, these earlier stories must have already been substantially influential.
Germanic identity may be a loaded term. The romantics started the idea of Pan-Germanism as a patriotic response to Napoleon exporting republicanism at the point of the bayonet. So "identity" is a term to be cautious with.
The stories got around as at the time the different tribal languages were closer to one another than now. Even in the later early medieval period, the Germanic languages were close enough that Norse, Frisian and Saxon traders could get by. Which is one of the issues I am addressing with in my dissertation and the role of the dragon-fight in various Northern and Western Germanic epics.
I've stressed that historically they were just a blip on the screen, so of course militarily and politically they would not be overly interesting and lacking in sources. However, that is a historical approach. Taking a literary approach, the field of source material is very, very rich even if the only texts we have are the one written down at a later date - which attests to the stating power and influence of the myth.
I suggest that SAGA is a literary game and as such, the Nibelungs and extremely significant in that they are the source of one of the most fundamental legends of Germanic heroic literature.
In fact, the legend of the Fall of the Burgundians is influential even today, whether it is the source material of J.R.R. Tolkien and Richard Wagner or even more contemporary, the ironic title of the recent German film Der Untergang. That film was about the last days of Hitler and it plays off of the National Socialist abuse and perversion of the Siegfried myth, whom they compared to Hitler and the ironic last stand of fanatics which reminds us what happened at the end of the epic. Something the National Socialists didn't consider when they started with the Siegfried-themed propaganda.
Nevertheless, there is a plethora of material out there showing the significance of the event in shaping and influencing heroic literature for hundreds of years even up until today. But you are correct that you won't find it in any Roman works or histories :).
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The Tyrfing cycle/ The Saga of Hervör and Heidrek will hopefully be represented in the Goths and Huns!
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on second thought, there are so many historical Gothic figures I doubt the characters of the Sagas will be represented. I second the Ogre, Sidhe, low Fantasy etc factions! The revenants are a fun addition.
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I am quite aware of significance for Germanic heritage and a role as a founding myth, but as Captain Blood suggested - English speaking traditions are most prolific in wargaming, and as you agree those works of literature are mainly significant to germany.
To be honest I know them only from Wagner operas.
In popular modern global culture they are almost absent. And as probably as their lying in bedrock of Tolkien and other popular works - it is not obvious.
And as I criticized faction choices in Saga:Migrations - they clearly are representations of genres attractive to English speakers - especially in England itself - as a home of modern wargaming. From the same reason Post - Roman Britain is so popular period with dozens of dedicated rule sets and source material books :)
In my opinion Burgundians are too obscure and yet not enough exotic to be attractive to English gamers as main faction.
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Well, AWu, that settles that - we agree to disagree :D
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I feel your pain as there is no proper Slavic faction for Saga :)
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The Pagan Rus and Rus Era of the Princes are slavic factions. Jomsvikings are slightly slavic as well. Wends would be fun tho.
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I meant proper, Russ are very specific and very closed in time and place. They are really Northmen faction with subjugated Slavic elements.
Jomsvikings are dodgy topic (historians are debating if they even existed) and making similar pattern of Northmen colonisation.
Saga is lacking proper Slavic faction, either Southern (important enemy and ally of Byzantines for a long time), Wendic (Since Charlemagne to bloody wars with Danish in XI century at last) or Northern - Baltic Slavs were Vikings most important enemy (and there are archaeological evidence of their settlement on Bornholm not to mention destruction of last Viking capital Konunghaela - which itself is probably to late for Saga (1135-6) but still important interaction living for a long time in sagas of Snorri Strulson :)
One of those would be proper Slavic faction
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What I like most about SAGA is that it is NOT an historical accurate set of rules. So many people simply use existing lists to represent other factions, e.g. we used the viking and Irish boards for Franks and Myceneans, the Anglo-Danish board for Late Romans etc. Others created new boards for Fantasy and Samurai armies. I participated in a Conan game where "Heroes" where represented as minor warlords. So you can complain about missing factions or sit down, let your creativity flow and share your Nibelungen SAGA, Slavic forces or what ever mythological creature you like, with us!
Cheers
Jan
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What I like most about SAGA is that it is NOT an historical accurate set of rules.
Exactly the point I was attempting to make. For a game based off of the Icelandic Family Sagas, The Edda, and Northern European heroic epic, however, I felt that they missed the opportunity to include the faction of the myths fundamental to those works and the peoples who recited them. Not just Germans, but also Icelandic vikings, Norse, Swedes, Danes, and even Anglo-Saxons (Waldhere and the English national epic Beowulf, for example). The Migration Period supplement was the perfect time to include them.
Nevertheless, My apologies if this post came off as a complaint. Rather, it was intended as an evidence-based argument for a Nibelung inclusion within the context of a blog-post.
Unfortunately, I'm not a game designer, so my skills with game balance are not up to par with a professional game designer. I will probably try to make my own board but quality is not assured. My research and creativity time is limited as I've got a whole other problem with Beowulf that I need to write up and turn into my advisor soon. o_o
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just use a preexisting board that plays the way the burgundians would, and rename the abilities. I use the Norse Gaels/Welsh/Irish for Baltic Pagans and Franks/Normans for the Teutonic Knights. Eventually I'll try out the C&C crusaders and milites Christi for the Teutonic Knights and maybe the saracens for Lithuanians.
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@ Humakt & ayak333
I will probably, eventually, create my own board and hero cards as Saga makes it easy to do and provides templates for home-brew boards.
What will take awhile, is that I should probably go back and re-read those Eddic, German, and Anglo-Saxon works which feature the Nibelungs and their heroes fighting with an eye to which specific heroic deeds they are doing and translate those into battle board abilities and hero cards.
However, that is unfortunately low on the priority list :(