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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Charlie_ on November 13, 2016, 11:28:56 AM

Title: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: Charlie_ on November 13, 2016, 11:28:56 AM: Does anyone have any thoughts on what terrain works best for 'realistic' medieval-era battles?

I originally got into wargaming back in the day through Games Workshop, and so my approach to terrain used to be 'gamey' if that makes sense. A battlefield would consist of a bunch of random terrian features arrayed on a flat field, with usually little thought for realism or consistency. For example there would always be a little round hill or two, a so-called 'wood' consisting of a few trees, perhaps a river with a bridge, and usually a random house or tower somewhere in the vicinity.

Coming back to the hobby 10 years later with my interests now being almost entirely historical, I'm re-thinking what sort of terrain would be suitable for a large-scaled 'pitched battle' kind of scenario. I'm in the process of building up a scenery collection and making some nice terrain boards.

Though there is always a level of abstraction involved with wargaming, I'd like to have a battlefield that looks believable and makes some sort of sense, not the random hodge-podge of terrain features I described above.

Reading a lot about historical battles has made me think a lot. Osprey Campaign books have been very insightful!

For a while I didn't like the idea that a 'wood' in wargaming terms consisted of usually half a dozen trees. But now I'm approaching it differently. Battles weren't thought with huge woods and forests in the middle of the battlefield! They were often thought with woods and forests on the edge of the battlefield though. So as well as building lots of stands of trees based either singly or in small groups, I'm also going to build a few large pieces with straight edges, or corner pieces, to be placed on the edge of the tabletop to represent the borders of larger woods and forests. They will be full of undergrowth and feature the largest trees I can get hold of, and will mostly be impassable in gaming terms. I feel this will look much better than having the smaller oval-based tree groups just placed to the edge of the table.

Everyone loves rivers, but I'm leaning more towards small winding streams / brooks etc. Also, ditches! Either pre-existing ones alongside roads or those recently dug in preparation for the battle.

I've got some boards with roads / tracks, and have taken the opportunity to have some of them sunk into the boards, which looks really cool.

Hedges. Not neatly trimmed garden hedges, but big wild-looking things full of small trees that would be definite obstacles, often alongside roads and streams.

I've also got some nice low stone walls and wattle fences.

Hills... I have no plans to make any hills any time soon, and don't really like the idea of small random 'wargamey' hills. I might in the future make one large hill piece that would span most of a table edge, for battles where one side has taken the higher ground.

Anyway, what thoughts do you all have on making a 'realistic' battlefield for the medieval era, with terrain features that make sense rather than a random mix of things?

Any ideas of other features I should consider building?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Gracchus Armisurplus on November 14, 2016, 03:20:32 AM: Well, most 'realistic' battlefields would be a simple flat, empty field.

What you really want is terrain that is authentic looking, but still provides an interesting battlefield with terrain pieces you can interact with. You also have to consider the scale of the game you're playing. For instance, a massed battle game will often have a flexible scale of maybe 1 model = 5 men, or 1:10 or even 1:50 or 1:100.

Then your terrain sort of scales as well. A few trees in a copse becomes a large patch of woodland, a house or two becomes a village, a small hill becomes a large ridge, etc. Whereas if you're playing a skirmish game like Blood Eagle or then the terrain is much more literal.

In any case, I find if you keep realism in the forefront of your mind then you can't really go wrong. Arrange buildings in a sensible fashion, with hedges or fences surrounding them. And as for the terrain itself, the devil is in the details. Add weathering to your buildings, moss, ivy, dirt, wear and tear, weeds and grass growing in the cracks, etc. This is what brings terrain to life.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Harry Faversham on November 14, 2016, 04:48:26 AM: Quote from: Gracchus Armisurplus on November 14, 2016, 03:20:32 AM
Weeds and grass growing in yer cracks, etc.

:o You can get tablets for that! :o
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Arlequín on November 14, 2016, 07:42:48 AM: I think you are already on the right lines, as are the commentators. A couple of points to add;

Hedges were quite a rarity back then and are more a feature of 'enclosure' farming. Open field farming in particular needed all round access to the fields, rather than a single entry/exit point for all who worked them.

Fields were typically avoided in any case. Open field farming, where it was common at least, used land-wasting berms and ditches as barriers, both for internal strips and the external limits of the field itself. For both horse and man, such fields would be obstacles, so heath or common land would be preferred to fight a battle on; the spaces between settlement areas in other words.

Barring the trees themselves, medieval woods were remarkably clear of fallen branches and dense undergrowth, if they were anywhere near to habitation. Locals scoured them of fallen branches for firewood (typically they could not actually just cut down trees, as the wood itself would be owned by someone) and usually set their pigs loose in them to forage. They would indeed form a table boundary though, rather than being randomly situated in the middle of a battlefield.

As Gracchus says, the typical medieval battlefield would be void of any real features, barring possibly a road and/or watercourse. Woods and settlements (or their fields at least), water courses and marsh, would all usually form table boundaries, rather than central features. Numerically weaker forces would tend to be in defence and would seek to have the benefit of terrain to secure one or more flanks (woodland at Agincourt, Cock Beck combined with high ground at Towton etc., etc.,). Have a look at the battlefields in your area of interest and try to mentally erase modern features.

Where thatch is used for the roofs of buildings, it's only 'yellow' when it has been relatively recently replaced. More usually it's a dirty grey with green moss growing on it. Most rural buildings had small walled or fenced (to keep wandering animals out) garden enclosures in which the occupants grew vegetables and herbs to supplement their diet. As what land was typically allowed to them was largely taken up by their dwelling itself, these were not very expansive and also had to accommodate a pit latrine.

Relative wealth was usually expressed in terms of what land surrounded your dwelling; the wealthier you were, the bigger the home and the bigger the area of land it stood on. A typical small settlement might only have one or two houses with two or more habitable rooms/levels, with the bulk of buildings being single room occupancy, with or without built-in animal stabling.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 14, 2016, 11:41:36 AM: Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Quote from: Gracchus Armisurplus on November 14, 2016, 03:20:32 AM
Then your terrain sort of scales as well. A few trees in a copse becomes a large patch of woodland, a house or two becomes a village, a small hill becomes a large ridge, etc.

Of course. I guess you could say I am looking for a compromise between the two extremes. I never liked the idea of 10 men representing 1000, but at the same time will accept that my battles aren't on a 1:1 scale, and 10 men will represent 50 or possibly 100. For what it's worth, my project is aiming towards say 200 models a side, so if that represents 1000 or 2000 men a side I'm happy. I'm not looking to represent massive battles (numbers in 5 figures).
And that translates to terrain. I don't want 6 trees to represent a wood. But at the same time I know the battlefield is representing an area quite a bit bigger than I can fit onto my table!

Quote from: Arlequín on November 14, 2016, 07:42:48 AM
Hedges were quite a rarity back then and are more a feature of 'enclosure' farming. Open field farming in particular needed all round access to the fields, rather than a single entry/exit point for all who worked them.

Interesting, this is something I've been wanting to find out more about. I love a nice big hedge, but perhaps I should restrict them to roadsides, and where they are on the table they should be major obstacles that dominate the battlefield, as opposed to loads of them cris-crossing the table?

What about stone walls and wattle fencing? What would they be likely to be enclosing?

Quote
Barring the trees themselves, medieval woods were remarkably clear of fallen branches and dense undergrowth, if they were anywhere near to habitation.

Interesting....

Reading about the battle of Tewkesbury, there is reference to “evil lanes and deep dykes, so many hedges, trees and bushes", I'd be interested to get a picture of exactly what the battlefield (or part of the battlefield) was like. What were these lanes and deep dykes?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: katie on November 14, 2016, 12:52:51 PM: Hills are probably better represented using long "slope" elements (I bought some from TSS) that will let you do things like build a valley to contain the battle; it was common for the hilltops to remain wooded.

Hedges/fences/walls would really only be present in the village -- they're there to stop the free-roaming animals eating your vegetable patch, stop the chickens wandering too far and so on.

Fields would be large; people were allocated around 15 acres in 5 per field in distributed strips (2 growing, 1 fallow at a time giving the 10 acres for a family's annual grains production). There'd be a lot of households each with those 5 acres, so the total area of each field could be 400 - 500 acres in some cases.

Within that, the strips were divided by either ditches, mounds of stones (pulled out of the growing ground) or larger marker stones; they're probably too small to depict on the scale battlefield but they would impede progress compared with (say) open grazing land.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: painterman on November 14, 2016, 01:29:07 PM: Agree with all the helpful comments.
could try looking for details of late medieval paintings - Flemish are best - for possible views of north European countryside.

Open fields, tree lined roads, orchards with fences, little copses, like these:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZZa4ms0.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /> (http://imgur.com/ZZa4ms0)

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/1T5fTXI.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /> (http://imgur.com/1T5fTXI)

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/8gBNvOR.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /> (http://imgur.com/8gBNvOR)

Cheers, Simon.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: westwaller on November 14, 2016, 02:01:37 PM: Pollarded trees. Actually you can see some in one of the pictures that painterman has posted. Flooded or marshy land. I wonder if 'Evil lanes' are hollow ways?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Silent Invader on November 14, 2016, 02:10:09 PM: Quote from: westwaller on November 14, 2016, 02:01:37 PM
Pollarded trees. Actually you can see some in one of the pictures that painterman has posted.

Good spot!

There are pollarded trees in each of the three images but I don't think I've ever seen them represented on a wargames table. While they add arboricultural flavour they're not very pretty to look at, when what is generally aimed for is 'representative' terrain.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 14, 2016, 02:14:12 PM: It would be interesting to see them in a game but I thought the term was 'pleached'?

cheers

James
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Silent Invader on November 14, 2016, 02:31:15 PM: Pleached trees are a bit like a 'trained hedge in the air' while pollarded trees are more akin to 'coppiced in the air'.

In practical terms, pleached trees retain trained branches usually for harvesting of fruit, etc, whereas pollarded trees have their upper branches removed for a multiple of uses but including structures and firewood. Both are a form of managed production that is geared to the local environment (for example, preaching and pollarding would be used where animals might graze on the new shoots at ground level and fencing was impractical).
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Arlequín on November 14, 2016, 04:04:27 PM: Quote from: Charlie_ on November 14, 2016, 11:41:36 AM
Reading about the battle of Tewkesbury, there is reference to “evil lanes and deep dykes, so many hedges, trees and bushes", I'd be interested to get a picture of exactly what the battlefield (or part of the battlefield) was like. What were these lanes and deep dykes?

I'm stabbing in the dark here, but given the proximity of 'Bloody Meadow' to the Avon, Swilgate and the brook which runs in the deep of the two areas of high ground (50m), I can only imagine that that part of the battlefield was largely wetland with drainage ditches (or dikes as they are called thereabouts, rather than the huge banks we imagine today). Good case for growing hedges, as it would be the best way of stopping livestock falling into them.

If it was dry, then they were probably passable, while possessing enough greenery to obscure Somerset's flankers and their guides ... maybe.

'Evil Lanes' I don't know. Maybe those rural paths and tracks that end up abruptly partially submerged in places? :?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: jamesmanto on November 14, 2016, 04:31:56 PM: Take a look at the Perry brothers tables and Captain Blood has posted some nice game pictures here.

Even though the battlefield is level and fairly open, you can make it come alive with trees and small hedges that have no effect on the game, except to make it pretty.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: westwaller on November 14, 2016, 04:36:35 PM: The the case of the Tewksbury battlefield, another feature was apparently the remains of an iron age fort.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 14, 2016, 04:47:46 PM: Quote from: Arlequín on November 14, 2016, 04:04:27 PM
I'm stabbing in the dark here, but given the proximity of 'Bloody Meadow' to the Avon, Swilgate and the brook which runs in the deep of the two areas of high ground (50m), I can only imagine that that part of the battlefield was largely wetland with drainage ditches (or dikes as they are called thereabouts, rather than the huge banks we imagine today). Good case for growing hedges, as it would be the best way of stopping livestock falling into them.

Yes I'll have to consider some areas of wetland, perhaps alongside some of the small streams I'm planning.

Quote from: jamesmanto on November 14, 2016, 04:31:56 PM
Take a look at the Perry brothers tables

Oh don't you worry, I've spent a long time studying every photo they put up of their games on their facebook page. Truly inspirational.

Here's some quick snapshots from my phone of the boards I've been working on.....

A WIP board with a ditch of some sort.... There will be a road alongside it. There will be other such boards later on to link up to it.

(http://i.imgur.com/3eeQD65.jpg)

A sunken road or track section. I'm VERY pleased with how this has turned out.

(http://i.imgur.com/EfGKnBa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5jIjt6k.jpg)

And with some trees and hedges around it.

(http://i.imgur.com/SlQ7Rip.jpg)

I'm not entirely convinced with the bases and general layout of the individual tree / hedge pieces. But I've got lots more of these to come, so I think I'll just adapt how I base them. As mentioned before, I'm going to do a couple of large table edge and corner pieces... Perhaps all other trees in the future will just have discreet individual bases? And I think I want the hedges to be taller and bushier.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 14, 2016, 05:14:55 PM: That looks good :)

I think a few bits of low scrub here and there would work quite well.

cheers

James
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Globlin on November 14, 2016, 05:27:17 PM: Regarding Tewkesbury, there was Tewkesbury park on the Yorkist left where the "Yorkist spears" hid. Possibly a deer park, so could the hedges have been there to stop the game from wandering? There were also fish ponds between the abbey and the back of the Lancastrian lines - apparently fish ponds were quite common in medieval times?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Hu Rhu on November 14, 2016, 07:52:59 PM: Nice start to your terrain boards, especially the sunken road. Are you using straight blue foam without a base board? If so how does it stay un-warped?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 14, 2016, 08:05:57 PM: Quote from: Hu Rhu on November 14, 2016, 07:52:59 PM
Nice start to your terrain boards, especially the sunken road. Are you using straight blue foam without a base board? If so how does it stay un-warped?

Thanks!
No, I've gone for 20mm thick blue foam on a 9mm MDF baseboard, with battens around the edges of the foam to keep it getting chipped.
And for the flat boards with no sunken features, I just use the 9mm MDF with the battens underneath, no foam, but giving the same height.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 14, 2016, 08:07:26 PM: Quote from: jimbibbly on November 14, 2016, 05:14:55 PM
I think a few bits of low scrub here and there would work quite well.
Actually after taking those pics, I tried out just throwing some loose clumps of lichen around the edges of the tree / hedge bases. Works really well to hide the base edges, thicken everything up, and tie everything together. I think I'll keep a box of loose lichen handy for every game, and hope that it doesn't get everywhere!
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Captain Blood on November 14, 2016, 09:21:03 PM: Really nice Charlie. Agree that a little scatter material really helps knit everything together. Looking forward to seeing more :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Unlucky General on November 15, 2016, 03:32:45 AM: I suppose the broad question is what sort of base terrain are you thinking of building on.

I am using several types depending upon what battlefield type I want to represent. Depth is a real issue and I think if you need to go down in depth you can't go past terrain boards. I find the best water systems are depicted in depth. But if you have any specific battlefield you want to replicate, then cloth draped over foam hills can be spectacularly effective for rolling hills. You can plonk on whatever features you want either way.

I have built one battlefield using synthetic fur and foam boards for a specific medieval battlefield but it is rigid in that it is what it is - and transportable it is not.

A great piece of advice I have always remembered - nature generally abhors a straight line.

I think forests can be fought in but the forest limits are best defined by a base on which tree and brush stands can be moved about on allowing figures to be moved through it.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: 3 fingers on November 15, 2016, 07:04:51 AM: Would evil lanes be foot paths through dense undergrowth,maybe they had to backtrack or got ambushed a lot??
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Gracchus Armisurplus on November 15, 2016, 08:35:51 AM: Quote from: Harry Faversham on November 14, 2016, 04:48:26 AM
:o You can get tablets for that! :o

lol!
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Arlequín on November 15, 2016, 10:21:17 AM: Quote from: 3 fingers on November 15, 2016, 07:04:51 AM
Would evil lanes be foot paths through dense undergrowth,maybe they had to backtrack or got ambushed a lot??

Maybe. I'm guessing 'rough', 'poor going', or 'uneven' was meant, or even 'evil-looking'. A series of tracks connecting various copses, closes, water meadows and whatever, would certainly be confusing to outsiders and would also provide the concealment needed. Gaps in the landscape known as 'rides' are relatively recent (within 300 years or so), but they often replace previous networks of tracks.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Arlequín on November 15, 2016, 11:15:00 AM: That's pretty evil-looking to me and certainly pretty much what I was picturing in my head, although somewhat less dense; like this one.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Newtonhollows.jpg)

Which is pretty much what Charlie is pulling off with his rather splendid board.

But yes, sunken lanes, hollow ways or holloways, works for me. Certainly until something like that opened out into a meadow, nobody would see you coming.

'Evil lanes' comes from a description of the Battle of Tewkesbury;

"In the front of their field were so evil lanes, and deep dykes, so many hedges, trees and bushes, that it was right hard to approach them near..."

I've never come across it otherwise either.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Captain Blood on November 15, 2016, 01:38:08 PM: I've always thought Graham Turner's gorgeous painting of Edward IV descending the hedgerow bank into a sunken ditch or lane, summed up the higgledy-piggledy nature of the battlefield rather well.

I have this print in all its glory hanging on my wall 8)

Possibly a bit sanitised... But bearing in mind the artist is a renowned medieval re-enactor as well as a top illustrator, and with a long connection to the annual Tewkesbury Medieval Festival, he ought to know his stuff...

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/26/577_15_11_16_2_29_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 15, 2016, 02:22:14 PM: Quote from: Captain Blood on November 15, 2016, 01:38:08 PM
Possibly a bit sanitised...

Yeah, the look on that fellas face bottom left certainly doesn't say "I'm gonna get stabbed!" lol

Lovely painting though :)

cheers

James
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: jamesmanto on November 15, 2016, 06:02:57 PM: I think your boards are off to a GRAND start.
I like your tree bases too. Those will line a lane or field quite splendidly!
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 15, 2016, 06:17:05 PM: Quote from: jimbibbly on November 15, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
Yeah, the look on that fellas face bottom left certainly doesn't say "I'm gonna get stabbed!" lol

Yes I've noticed the same chap as well and found him quite funny!

Quote from: jamesmanto on November 15, 2016, 06:02:57 PM
I think your boards are off to a GRAND start.
I like your tree bases too. Those will line a lane or field quite splendidly!

Thanks!

Currently I have 4 foot square of open land (one 2x4 and two 2x2s), one 2x4 with a plain boring straight road, and the two I posted above (the one with the ditch is being flocked and finished tonight, I'll post a pic).

So enough for a battlefield for sure!
I have a river planned, complete with ford, and several 2x3 boards with a narrow winding stream (perhaps with wetland) that can branch off from the larger river of just come from the table edge. But I've yet to experiment with water effects, so that can wait til some time in the future. For now I'm enjoying the roads and lanes... I think I'll do another sunken section with some sunken paths leading off from the main track.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Arlequín on November 15, 2016, 10:24:24 PM: Quote from: Captain Blood on November 15, 2016, 01:38:08 PM
I've always thought Graham Turner's gorgeous painting of Edward IV descending the hedgerow bank into a sunken ditch or lane, summed up the higgledy-piggledy nature of the battlefield rather well.

Yes, I think so too. Certainly I've clambered down similar breaches in a hedgerow like that in the past.

Quote from: jamesmanto on November 15, 2016, 06:02:57 PM
I think your boards are off to a GRAND start.

Indeed they are, I'll be following this with interest. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: tomrommel1 on November 16, 2016, 10:46:23 AM: very good start
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: TimK on November 16, 2016, 11:07:03 AM: Some of the stuff I've read suggests that the undergrowth was cleared "a bowshot" either side of main roads to prevent ambush and robbery.

Pollarding occurred for a number of reasons, in Epping Forest the peasantry was allowed to take wood above the height they could reach with upstretched arm, say about 7 feet or so. trees regrew with multiple branches above this height.

For interest you could have a bit of semi-derelict Roman road, bits survived then (and still do).

Tim
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain
Post by: Charlie_ on November 17, 2016, 06:48:51 PM: Apologies in advanced for the blurry pics.

Here's the finished road and ditch section.

(http://i.imgur.com/vbp2stu.jpg)

Things are starting to come together....

(http://i.imgur.com/lBp8mAB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KVy3jvv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/x4b815z.jpg)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 17, 2016, 06:58:55 PM: Looking good :)

cheers

James
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: levied troop on November 17, 2016, 07:19:43 PM: That's looking very nice.

There's a couple of Shire Publications you may find interesting 'Medieval Roads and Tracks' being one. I have one on town planning which included some nice detail on field systems, can't find it at present for the exact title but I think it was Medieval Town Plans.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: shandy on November 17, 2016, 08:22:10 PM: Concerning evil lanes, wasn't there a place called Malfosse or "Evil Ditch" at the Battle of Hastings? I don't have my books at hand...

Great project and interesting discussion btw! :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: Hu Rhu on November 17, 2016, 09:59:11 PM: That looks the bees knees.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: Gracchus Armisurplus on November 18, 2016, 02:35:42 AM: It looks very nice! Don't forget to put some kind of sealer over the flock to stop it from coming off, and make sure you provide chairs for playing so that people aren't tempted to stand over the table and lean on it, thus compressing the foam and damaging the scenery.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: tomrommel1 on November 18, 2016, 07:58:42 AM: Very nice indeed ! I give mine a blast with my airbrush filled with a mix of 50% H2O and 50% white glue. Fixes everything very well.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: Captain Blood on November 18, 2016, 09:07:31 AM: Proper handsome 8)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: Dr. Zombie on November 18, 2016, 10:02:44 AM: That looks really good.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics, 17th november)
Post by: Patrice on November 19, 2016, 11:31:24 AM: Excellent thread! and nice work. :)
Title: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!)
Post by: Charlie_ on November 26, 2016, 07:24:29 PM: Ok, here we go. Not much over a year after deciding to get back into wargaming, and subsequently starting from scratch, I am finally ready to play a game!

No new boards since my last pics other than flat open ones, but this is the first time I've put it all together to make the much-desired 8x4 foot gaming table.

Apologies for the bad pics, but I'm not trying to show you detail here, just the big picture!

This is very exciting for me. I live in a small flat, nice and spacious when you are living by yourself, but not necessarily ideal for setting up an 8x4 gaming surface. But I knew it could be done!!!!

I've had vague plans on how I was going to do this over the last year, always being aware that it might not work. But this weekend I put it all together, and it works. The important points I had to consider were:
1 - I need to be able to take it all apart and store it fairly easily.
2 - When set up, there needs to be enough room for at least 3 people to move around.
3 - It really wants to be 8x4. Not essential, but it would be a real shame if there wasn't room for it.
4 - I can move furniture to make room for it, the less moving to do the better. Nonetheless this shouldn't be considered a problem, as it will really be set up for games, say, once a month.

Making the terrain boards was one thing, but finding a good strong, level surface to put them on was another. The answer is two folding drop-leaf tables of roughly the same dimensions. One I use as my everyday painting table, the other doesn't take up much room when folded up and is stored in the hallway. Put together, they don't quite have enough surface area for the 8x4 boards. So I've constructed a sort of frame, with two 8 foot pieces that keep it together, which are bolted to a 'floating' section that bridges the gap between the two tables. Irritatingly the tables have a 2cm height difference, so a couple of boards are placed on top of the shorter one to get it all at the same height. To ensure it's level and solid, most discrepancies can be solved with folded up pieces of cardboard in strategic places!

And it works. It's a pretty damn solid tabletop, those boards aren't going to be sliding around during a game. When packed away, as well as the two tables all I have to find room to store are a few boards (which go behind or underneath the sofa) and 2 8-foot pieces of pine (which are leaned in a corner in the hallway). And the only furniture-moving that needs to be done to set up a game is to slide the sofa against a wall, move one table and bring the other one in from the hallway. Plenty of room for players to move around it.

So here's what we have....

(http://i.imgur.com/OeqNXEW.jpg)

And with terrain and an army on it.

(http://i.imgur.com/5lmlOhy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0EqMcIq.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/K1pOew6.jpg)

So far I just have open fields and road boards, one with a ditch and one being a sunken lane, as posted before. Terrain pieces I have so far are just trees and hedges, plus a few walls and fences and that walled field. I have plenty more planned - more trees and hedges, boards with streams, ditches, and rivers, and a cottage or two. But before that it's probably time I treated myself to a game at last!

The army is still growing as well. What you see here is most of the collection (a couple of new units on the workbench nearly finished too), which will be split into two forces for games. If you're wondering, it's a late medieval / game of thrones hybrid, but leaning much more towards the historical than the fantasy. Basically 15th century with 'fantasy' heraldry.

I plan to invite some friends over for the first game before christmas. Plans for the new year are more boards and terrain, growing the army at a more leisurely pace (though I haven't yet painted any cavalry...), and getting myself a proper camera to get this all showcased on a blog.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: Charlie_ on November 26, 2016, 08:00:21 PM: Some more pics, now with the collection split into two opposing forces. This is what the game will look like. I'll be using my own ruleset, which I think I'm going to call Battleline (there isn't already a ruleset with that name is there?). It's what us wargamers call a 'massed battle' system, but I prefer the idea of a 'small battle' - big enough to justify forming your men up into ranks, but it's not supposed to represent 1000s of troops.

(http://i.imgur.com/VGHiNuJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/c0Kl6Qe.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5NTwOhQ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/woMvfRS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Cl9hofZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: Jeff965 on November 26, 2016, 11:05:13 PM: Those boards are the dogs doodahs, I would love to be able to make some myself but I don't think I have the tools/skills.
I've also read so much about making them that I've now got information overload lol ;D I need to sit down and give thought to just putting some basic boards together.
What normally happens then is I start to think I need european type boards and desert type boards and then some deserty boards with more grass on, then I'll need all three types with rivers running through them and don't get me started on roads and tracks o_o
Ah bugger it I'll just stick to painting figures lol
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: FierceKitty on November 27, 2016, 12:01:15 AM: Is there ONE company that models crossbowmen firing at the elevation that every contemporary painting and drawing shows? >:(
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: tomrommel1 on November 27, 2016, 09:20:44 AM: very nice indeed
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: Dr. Zombie on November 27, 2016, 09:33:25 AM: That looks most excellent!

Great looking table and minis.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (new pics 26th november - AN 8x4 TABLE AT LAST!!!!)
Post by: Miantanomo on November 27, 2016, 02:57:54 PM: Fine looking terrain! I don't have any terrain boards but maybe I should get on that. Great stuff!
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Charlie_ on December 10, 2016, 07:31:57 PM: I made a hill type thing...

As I think I mentioned earlier, I don't really like the generic 'wargame hill', and want some more realistic slopes. In particular I think having them as piece for the table edge helps, suggesting the start of a much bigger slope rather than being a random little hump in the middle of the battlefield.

This first one is a test piece really, I wanted to try out some new techniques. So it's small and steep, with rocks and undergrowth. Not very practical in terms of model placement, but that doesn't matter, it has a small surface area so doesn't take up much table space. It will sure look good on the edge of the battlefield though, especially with lots of trees around it I'm thinking.

I'm gonna call it a success!

(http://i.imgur.com/2dE4RF9.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EpmKQ1F.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/p4FUfal.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8zdTuia.jpg)

And here's a second similar one I've started. The two of them together will make a nice little valley entrance for a small stream, or just a little footpath.

(http://i.imgur.com/owUXidR.jpg)

Sometime in the future I will make a much bigger one to cover more table edge, more friendly for model placement, which an army can defend nicely.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: OSHIROmodels on December 10, 2016, 07:36:23 PM: That looks great 8) 8)

cheers

James
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Silent Invader on December 10, 2016, 07:50:39 PM: Spiffing 8)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Malamute on December 10, 2016, 09:37:14 PM: Nicely done, the vegetation looks very convincing. ;D
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Captain Blood on December 11, 2016, 12:22:02 AM: Top notch. Love it. Well done Charlie 8)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Barry S on December 11, 2016, 12:58:30 AM: Great looking set-up you have.

I really like the hill.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Jacksarge on December 11, 2016, 01:55:55 AM: That is a splendid looking "hill type thing" :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Hu Rhu on December 11, 2016, 10:46:31 AM: Nice bit of terrain. Are you planning to link the two with a long ridge?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Charlie_ on December 11, 2016, 11:56:50 AM: Thanks everyone!

Quote from: Malamute on December 10, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
the vegetation looks very convincing. ;D

Yes, I'm very pleased with that myself!

Quote from: Hu Rhu on December 11, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
Are you planning to link the two with a long ridge?

No, they're not designed to be linked up.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: tomrommel1 on December 12, 2016, 07:48:00 AM: very nice hill indeed!!!
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 10th DECEMBER - hill type thing)
Post by: Little Odo on December 17, 2016, 07:41:41 AM: Very nice
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: Charlie_ on January 01, 2017, 04:35:41 PM: I made another board, a corner road piece with some more ditch to link up with the other one.

(http://i.imgur.com/kPXwp7N.jpg)

And I played my first game on it!

(http://i.imgur.com/ewLDKTQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: pocoloco on January 01, 2017, 06:30:01 PM: Congrats on the fine looking board(s) 8)

Any kind of settlement in the works soon?
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: vcina on January 03, 2017, 02:19:26 AM: The boards look great.

I tend to "recreate" medieval battles in Italy and the battles are rarely on entirely flat ground. Lots of small hills and vineyards and other obstacles to worry about.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: Patrice on January 03, 2017, 02:19:30 PM: Nice ditch ;)

You could also add removable earthen banks on each side of it to change it into a sunken path when you wish to change the landscape and context.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: Charlie_ on January 03, 2017, 07:14:59 PM: Quote from: Patrice on January 03, 2017, 02:19:30 PM
Nice ditch ;)

You could also add removable earthen banks on each side of it to change it into a sunken path when you wish to change the landscape and context.

Nice idea!

My mum of all people actually came up with a similar idea - she said why not some earth banks made of the soil displaced from digging the ditch.
Title: Re: Thoughts on medieval terrain (UPDATE 1st January)
Post by: Patrice on January 03, 2017, 08:10:59 PM: Anyway these sunken lanes are tricky in all historical contexts... ::)

(http://files.les-apn-belgique.webnode.fr/200001043-d6f4dd7ec4/chemin_creux.jpg)