Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: DintheDin on February 19, 2017, 09:01:32 PM
-
Here are some photos from an Essex 15 mm TYW Spanish army.
A Spanish general first, taking a walk in the countryside
-
Spanish light lancers, galloping straight for you!
-
...some sword and buckler men...
Some shields have putty ornaments
-
And a fully grown Spanish Tercio!
They have disembarked in England perhaps? One of History's best well kept secrets... Who knows.
-
Deployed on a gentle slope. Where is the enemy?
-
This tercio used to be the pride of my collection, now it belongs to a very close friend, who wanted to have an Imperial army to play against me
(I have retained my Swedish, French, etc anti-Imperial forces)
-
They really have a warlike appearance!
-
Nice work :-*
LB
-
They do look fierce!
-Michael
-
They do look fierce!
-Michael
Fierce, yet soft metal pikes, they bend too easily and you have to take care when bringing them to melee.
These ones don't play the pick-a-pike game like the other, you know ;)
-
Hi my friends,
i'm the "very close friend, who wanted to have an Imperial army to play against me", ;D ;D of DintheDin
the spanish miniatures are wonderfull ;)
-
Lovely!!!
The only thing that bugs me, is that I also intended to field and post a tercio in the future! But mine will be in 28mm, so perhaps it will be percieved as something novel anyway :)
Good work!
-
Very nice indeed!
-
It's nice, but I have to say the Tercios almost never wore uniforms
-
Hi my friends,
i'm the "very close friend, who wanted to have an Imperial army to play against me", ;D ;D of DintheDin
the spanish miniatures are wonderfull ;)
You are a real brother-in-arms and it is my honor that you have them under your command!
I hope we will have many more exciting games with them in the future!
-
Lovely!!!
The only thing that bugs me, is that I also intended to field and post a tercio in the future! But mine will be in 28mm, so perhaps it will be percieved as something novel anyway :)
Good work!
Thank you! We look forward to see your tercio! I'm sure it will show much more detail in 28mm.
Besides that, a massive tercio is always a formidable thing to look at!
-
It's nice, but I have to say the Tercios almost never wore uniforms
You are absolutely right! It was nearly impossible to see a uniformed regiment in this period. I deliberately commissioned them to be painted this way. We had several FOG-R games, where we could field three tercios this size. This one, could be the "Superior", another one with not so regular uniforms was the "Average" and the last one, with completely ragged and motley uniforms could be the "Poor" one. Needless to say that especially the Superior one, was a real steamroller (but once it was badly mauled by a six-gun battery).
-
Thank you! We look forward to see your tercio! I'm sure it will show much more detail in 28mm.
Besides that, a massive tercio is always a formidable thing to look at!
Yes it will be the biggest pike block ever shown on Lead Adventure...
A question though: since I use landsknechts, what different pike/shot formations did they use? I have read that some germans among other formations used spanish squares. Would it be historically accurate?
-
I humbly admit that my knowledge about Early Renaissance/Landsknechts is limited.
The use of pike blocks and tercios simultaneously in the same army did not last long.
Landsknecht deep pike formations were cooperating with (Landsknecht) crossbowmen or early arquebusiers, but as far as I know there is no evidence that the former were attached to the pike block. Their number used to be very small in relation to the pike block.
The first formation to employ a concrete pike/sword/shooter ratio, was the Spanish tercio.
The positioning of the pike and the shot was according to a strict drill, depending on how far or what kind of enemy they were facing.
In fact, the Spanish proved in battle that tercios were more effective than pure pike blocks and gradually other countries imitated them using pike and shot formations.
These links may contain some helping info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/582lxt/what_is_the_origin_of_tercio_formation_and_tercio/
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=135383
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/272gua/what_caused_the_swiss_mercenaries_to_be_replaced/
-
This might be useful, where, in the same battle, we can see deep pike formations and an early form of the Tercio, the Colunela:
Battle of Cerignola April 21, 1503
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/08/26/battle-of-cerignola-april-21-1503/
-
Those rondeleroes look wonderful.
-
Thank you! Essex gives them all with flat shields, so, after some study of similar shields we had to make engravings with putty.
-
Yes it will be the biggest pike block ever shown on Lead Adventure...
A question though: since I use landsknechts, what different pike/shot formations did they use? I have read that some germans among other formations used spanish squares. Would it be historically accurate?
Among my FOG-R Army Lists, I found one which may be the exact answer to your question:
Austrian Imperial, 1534, where one can meet Landsknecht pike formations and Spanish Tercios in the same army. One must not forget that Spanish troops were available to German armies of the era, as both were Hapsburgs.
The list, showing a possible army composition, goes like that:
4 Generals (Troop Commander quality)
1 group of 4 Imperial Gendarmes, Fully Armoured, Superior, Heavy Lance, Sword
1 group of 4 "Hussars", Light Horse, Unarmoured, Average, Bow, Sword
1 big group of 14 Landsknechte, Heavy Foot, Armoured, Superior, 12 Pike, 2 Heavy Weapon (Halberd, etc)
3 groups of 4 Hakenbuchsenschutzen, Light Foot, Unarmoured, Average, Arquebus
1 group of 6 Hakenbuchsenschutzen, Medium Foot, Unarmoured, Average, Arquebus
1 group of 2 Field Guns, Medium Artillery
1 group of 4 Spanish M-A-A, Fully Armoured, Superior, Light Lance, Sword
1 group of 4 Jinetes, Light Horse, Unarmoured, Average, Javelin, Sword
1 big group of 16 Spanish Tercio, Superior, 8 Armoured Pikes Heavy Foot, 8 Unarmoured Arquebus Medium Foot
3 base lenghts of Field Fortifications
As you can see, the shot was incorporated with the Tercio pikes, while Landsknecht shot was more loosely cooperating with Landsknecht pikes, employed mainly as skirmishers.
I hope this list gives you a rough idea to modify it by analogy for your favorite game rules.
-
Probably it will be something like this:
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u415/Johannes_Hatem/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg) (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/Johannes_Hatem/media/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg.html)
-
As it concerns the Tercio, yes. But the positioning of shot was not permanent, they were constantly moving, according to where the threat was.
Usually, when they took a place at the four corners of the pike block, they were called "horns", when they were covering a whole side of the pike block, one could call them "wings".
http://historywarsweapons.com/spanish-tercio/
One usual tactic was four tercios to walk in the battlefield in a diamond shape, as shown in the picture below. Or three tercios, in a triangular pattern, with the middle tercio ahead of the two other. In the picture the pikemen are depicted as high blocks and the arquebusiers are around them, taking the best relative position so that they can have the best shooting angle. The whole formation was protected by cavalry. Of course, this is an ideal drawing.
-
Probably it will be something like this:
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u415/Johannes_Hatem/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg) (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/Johannes_Hatem/media/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg.html)
The title of the drawing:
"The order of a square battaile, impayled with winges and troupes of shotte, as in the fielde is used in these dayes"
Very interesting description of a tercio! Could you please provide the link?
-
An interesting note:
"As for the naming of the units: The Germans called a unit from several combined companies a "Gewalthaufen" (force heap). Then the French term "bataille" (battle) came into use, later changed to "bataillon" (battalion) and in the late seventeenth century institutionalized as a defined part of the regiment.
But in the Thirty Years' War the companies were combined by temporary orders, the French term being "ordonnance" (German Ordonnanz, English ordinance). Several different ordinances were used, the last known being the Spanish Ordinance, also called Catholic or Burgundy Ordinance on the HRE side and the Dutch or Swedish Ordinance on the other.
Within the Spanish Ordinance the troops were grouped as "Gevierthaufen" (pike square, also see illustration of the battle of Breitenfeld), these had the Spanish name "tercio", which is used within the 1632 series"
From the book "Ring of Fire IV" - Eric Flint
Breitenfeld picture source:
https://iactaaleaest.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/lutzen1632-12.jpg
-
Very interesting description of a tercio! Could you please provide the link?
I just did a google image search on "pike and shot formations"
-
One usual tactic was four tercios to walk in the battlefield in a diamond shape, as shown in the picture below. Or three tercios, in a triangular pattern, with the middle tercio ahead of the two other. In the picture the pikemen are depicted as high blocks and the arquebusiers are around them, taking the best relative position so that they can have the best shooting angle. The whole formation was protected by cavalry. Of course, this is an ideal drawing.
Cool picture - its making me want to get out my figures and recreate this. A bit late now, but might try this tomorrow night before gaming.
-
I just did a google image search on "pike and shot formations"
Right! It is top first in Wikipedia.
Here is one depicting the battle in White Mountain, 1620, where we can see the "ideal" tercio formation:
A central pike block and four groups of musketeers, stationed at its corners, the "horns".
Bohemians above, Imperial and Bavarian forces below.
In this case, we see that the tercio concept is adopted by both armies.
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_White_Mountain
http://www.pockettactics.com/news/new-bohemians-hands-preview-pike-shot/
-
So arranging my landsknechts in a tercio (actually "spanish square") formation could be historically correct?
-
Cool picture - its making me want to get out my figures and recreate this. A bit late now, but might try this tomorrow night before gaming.
I'm really happy that this gave you an impulse, this is what we all need in our game!
If you have many tercios, arranging them in a checkerboard formation will give you the right feeling of the period.
In the picture below, another form of tercio (called "later tercio" according to FOG-R rules), a central pike block with two "wings" of musketeers.
-
So arranging my landsknechts in a tercio (actually "spanish square") formation could be historically correct?
As landsknechts had not adopted the -new for the era- tercio formation, I'm afraid that the answer is no.
You may arrange your landsknecht pikemen (halberdiers etc close quarter weapons) in a huge pike block and if you have landsknecht shooters, they may be arranged as a (thin) line of skirmishers in front of them, or in their flanks, always having in mind that they are separate battle groups, operating independently.
The Landsknechts way of fighting, who were mainly of German origin was different from the fighting concept of the tercio men, the first of them being of Spanish origin. Historically, when the Tercio reputation started to rise, the Landsknecht reputation started to fall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht
The number of Landsknechts employed as shooters, was always too small in relation to the Landsknechts pikemen.
An eighth and later to about one quarter.
In the contrary, the ratio of tercio arquebusiers/musketeers were at least one third of the tercio pikemen.
And as the effectiveness of the tercio was growing, so was growing the ratio of the arquebusiers/musketeers.
-
As landsknechts had not adopted the -new for the era- tercio formation, I'm afraid that the answer is no.
Aah!
Unfortunately my figures are Landsknechts era. But I'm going for it any way!
In the contrary, the ratio of tercio arquebusiers/musketeers were at least one third of the tercio pikemen.
And as the effectiveness of the tercio was growing, so was growing the ratio of the arquebusiers/musketeers.
This makes me think I have under-done the number of pikemen. I have 8 shooters to 6 pike. So probably need more pike, though looking at the both the large woodcut, and the representation using o's and p's there seem to more shooters than pike?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JcM5jMH5sf5VcDQMKin0YsXiU8_Xkr67GiTrdP1a2kW4AT7b87EaxijfCCStXIPKi-Gx7Myugf3qfsPU1UJzE_KBW-jeCwVmV1wHie3MmM8GOBbLTVXaMHqv8eIB-eAU4994gzgaLon6_pmgjDD4HtDEBG-WPSpul7Gsmift1X2fF1P68EE2GIcpcsx-O2HRCE4qWSVlWdrAaZ1a9WtUt-KHNhwFzUGBnAYbqlBxQoClcZZ0NqVvWCRt923Hdn6-yfvECVJALOfwQjMrUIMLonEVOQiSJKLSeSUfbLdsyLMOJdC-eLSQEv80d7UMiEN_m5RF4dxFjXFrMkARmYBk94HajR64H8D61F6bzAH4zSvOv3K9yhfJPOvN3XLeVsoaXFCIEFB-3IYSXDr3o86RQejhw8D9cuJZ9ov7wa2lkswzZVh4QtWo5QDCYRyP_YiaDTHvdqEkKtBXnhCgz0uvgy9KteiocQAInTj9SrwoGWZuMSl3xRM-moFjXcNZkaIR5mF61BSZJnUb4-QrkWvwWggJYBQMEp1B64NMMqZANNEIp-VO240FWu2nDvE8QPiYmC4nrdSbxb-RbMf_SebuBb_xPxFFtWyf_wQEYFV_uv_2LPzQNRPA7ugI275TflV1WD1NC6CAaud5aOYGCQAddGrg12qlNdwjJG_RPi2oyg=w1435-h913-no)
So here we go - my best representation of the woodcut of four terico.
And a more overhead shot
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1Dc_ec-XYqyVAyjeO4Bw5qgj2RPsR-Sp2G3C4qGff6YTT4fR8Viga_1DguJvkHjiQagpSuVacJQvmKglPqzi2VEi-Ft9CtIK3xp_B-nRdNLCsojmKVVZKNaeEagBV6PF0Gv5BHoF8eLk6w9M9kgVV7IfqqhG3FnhUoOMzCWFDnKe8JQVZ2TMy0tju4EERr-D2Qy_lmL4itq3xW0Ycpi4y0j1eboBEHkGLNAwlNpIqSzIbMbtAbp0Vkt9VbJNeT1iHi1zTT4hG5k4nZjQZ5EVQEQ9c0H2si-BIyH3n_RQXQUqe48lnkkzcNahTX4E-0tHx0F3pB8PwaWJnEpibxiNJg1KgY5apV6Hr20U9NJlD40PLmT7DvTRzq4u-3tHTRzM3y8wa4-rI0BgU2UPuI5_R5z7FDv04p2zHhSmCaKckAbZLJSp9IM6L2U2CjX8eiF1VFEx14ugl8UbDCSrmbWe69NEj8OCjXPlnF7P3WDCfwOLLWQCgB5yWfzlTTfCsZBGkeigy9MoQCpGXcoNyHbYuGDLGvxzzSu5tlBcAzrmpj8czrsGuYp6LBkaBSOz8phvkDjjCsVZxFcf8ja-1tymIkSQTLIvxkgEVNoQ-UZ7kJrdBJeJcy208O9CqUqW4FB7_FsqPPipkpeHPBcMi02zRrD4hoW_Rcy74KECNa7Yng=w1435-h1101-no)
I couldn't quite make out the labels next to the different cavalry, so have gone with Gendarmes, Lancers and Reitters (not least because I have lots of these). The pike are backed up by halberdiers, again due to figures. And the shooters are a mix of arquebsiers and crossbows.
I've now just spotted cannon on the bottom left of the woodcut - I could have had those in my layout too!!
-
Aah!
Unfortunately my figures are Landsknechts era. But I'm going for it any way!
This makes me think I have under-done the number of pikemen. I have 8 shooters to 6 pike. So probably need more pike, though looking at the both the large woodcut, and the representation using o's and p's there seem to more shooters than pike?
Amazing! What a majestic representation of the woodcut! I really appreciate your disposition to sit down and arrange all this splendid-looking spectacle! No, you don't need more pikemen. If you run through my previous replies, you may find some interesting links in which it is described how the ratio of shot was augmenting in relation to the pikes as the firearms were evolving, until the tactics reached the Dutch pike/shot formation where the pike/shot ratio became 1 to 2.
-
I couldn't quite make out the labels next to the different cavalry, so have gone with Gendarmes, Lancers and Reitters (not least because I have lots of these). The pike are backed up by halberdiers, again due to figures. And the shooters are a mix of arquebsiers and crossbows.
I've now just spotted cannon on the bottom left of the woodcut - I could have had those in my layout too!!
[/quote]
The labels of the cavalry read: Harquebusiers, Lancers, Cuirassiers the former being nearer the tercio.
More than the caracole, the most dreaded enemy of a closely packed body of men forming a tercio was the cannon.
If they had a clear field of fire, they could literally cut pathways...
Congrats again for your colorful army collection and for your patience to set-up with most possible accuracy the old woodcut!
Having a godlike view of such a massive army is one of the most joyful moments in our hobby!
P.S. Next time, put the cannon too!
-
Amazing! What a majestic representation of the woodcut! I really appreciate your disposition to sit down and arrange all this splendid-looking spectacle!
Thank you very much!
It was no trouble at all, I needed a good number of the figures for a game later.
I'm also pleased how an army that started as a Fantasy one (GW Empire) has been able to morph into a much more historical one with the additions of a few units.
Remembering the cannons is always good!
-
Thank you very much!
It was no trouble at all, I needed a good number of the figures for a game later.
I'm also pleased how an army that started as a Fantasy one (GW Empire) has been able to morph into a much more historical one with the additions of a few units.
Remembering the cannons is always good!
Remember the cannons! :)
Plastic Revel 1/72, the two leftmost cannons scratchbuilt, 30 years ago
-
Take into account that at the beginning of the XVIth century landskenechts fought alongside spanish tercios in most battles. In fact, until the war of spanish succession "spanish" armies were comprised of men from several different nationalities, with spaniards rarely making the bulk of them. At Pavia, it was told that most pikemen were germans meanwhile the shorter spaniards made most of the arquebusier numbers. Maybe for armies of that age you could use the tercio formation with the german mercenaries.
-
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u415/Johannes_Hatem/1530/Fnika_zps6mpolqbm.jpg) (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/Johannes_Hatem/media/1530/Fnika_zps6mpolqbm.jpg.html)
The top image is an illustration of a swedish 16th century battle formation, the "Fänika". It consisted of 500 men.
The center block is made up of pikemen with the banner in the middle with a few rows of halberds and wings of shot on both sides. The separate formations are so called "forlorn" groups with a mix of rondassiers, shot, halberd and pike.
I will probably create something like that or perhaps like this:
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u415/Johannes_Hatem/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg) (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/Johannes_Hatem/media/Pamphlet_zps0kd3i6hv.jpg.html)
-
I do love me a nice looking Tercio. I am enjoying this thread!
-
I do love me a nice looking Tercio. I am enjoying this thread!
I found some impressive pics at this link
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=105060