Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Panzerknacker on March 06, 2017, 12:17:23 AM
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A bit of a conundrum here and I need some crafty fellow with access to "The Encyclopedia of French Tanks and Armoured Fighting Vehicles: 1914-1940" by Vauvillier to help me out!
Every order of battle I can find for the French in Norway (1940) says the only armor they had was the 342me Independent Tank Company which had some H39s. BUT, wikipedia cites Vauvillier: "In the spring of 1940, 21e Escadron d'AMD 35 was first destined for Finland and the Winter War but then sent to Narvik to assist Norway during Weserübung. It was in fact the renamed 4e GRDI (that would be replaced by a new unit of the same name in its former parent 15th Mechanised Infantry Division on 5 May) and was equipped with thirteen Panhard 178s (Pg. 40)"
I am trying to figure out if the Panhard's did actually make it to Norway, I cannot find any pics of a 178 there or any other info to confirm the above statement. Or, any other additional info.
Help me!
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No Vauvillier but this pdf (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/documents/norvege/Le%2520Corps%2520Exp%25C3%25A9ditionnaire%2520Fran%25C3%25A7ais%2520en%2520Scandinavie.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjl-onh0cDSAhUMKsAKHaBLAm0QFgh7MBI&usg=AFQjCNFgxAH-QTQbhdX8HBdn4yJGYjE4ug&sig2=I7Aw_1bfsdoYkAkuUzJTqA) from the ATF40 site gives 13 sent.
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No Vauvillier but this pdf (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.atf40.fr/ATF40/documents/norvege/Le%2520Corps%2520Exp%25C3%25A9ditionnaire%2520Fran%25C3%25A7ais%2520en%2520Scandinavie.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjl-onh0cDSAhUMKsAKHaBLAm0QFgh7MBI&usg=AFQjCNFgxAH-QTQbhdX8HBdn4yJGYjE4ug&sig2=I7Aw_1bfsdoYkAkuUzJTqA) from the ATF40 site gives 13 sent.
Thanks, Arlequín! One more piece in the puzzle!
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I had a quick look at Vauvillier. In the section on the Panhard 178 it just says 'A single squadron (13 vehicles) was allocated to the French Expeditionary for the Norway'. It doesn't say if they were actually sent or not
I had missed the page number quoted above though, so I'll look again tonight.
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I asked Lou Passejaire this question and his response is;
there is a mistake made by quite everybody between the troops who landed in Norway and the troops who were gathered for the expedition . The only armour who disembarked in Norway was the 342éme CCC who became , after the fall of France the bulk of the Free French Tank Company . The 21st EAM was sent to Scotland on the way to Norway, and sent back to France were it became the Amored car squadron in the 3rd Armored car Regiment of the 3rd Light Cavalry Division on the 3rd of June.
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Only landed in Norway , on the French side :
in Namsos :
5th Chasseurs Alpins half Brigade
1013th AA Battery
some sailors .
In Narvik :
27th Chasseurs Alpins half Brigade
a Scout skiers company
2nd Colonial Artillery Group ( 75mm field guns with Unic P107 tractors )
an anti-tank company
the 13th Legion Half Brigade
342eme Autonomous Tank Company ( Hotchkiss H39 tanks with short barrel low velocity 37mm SA18 guns )
and the Polish BRIGADE AUTONOME DES CHASSEURS DE PODHALE ( organized and equipped as a French infantry brigade )
and that's all ... the remaining of the planned force stayed in France or was in Scotland waiting for shipping when things goes wrong in Belgium and were sent back to France .
In Norway, on the French side you can see ;
H39 , Lorraine 37 , Renault UE, Unic P107, Somua MCG , Laffly or Lattil tow of the AA guns, Peugeot 402 and Peugeot DKJ , and that's quite all ... and a lot of mules ... ;)
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Only landed in Norway , on the French side :
in Namsos :
5th Chasseurs Alpins half Brigade
1013th AA Battery
some sailors .
In Narvik :
27th Chasseurs Alpins half Brigade
a Scout skiers company
2nd Colonial Artillery Group ( 75mm field guns with Unic P107 tractors )
an anti-tank company
the 13th Legion Half Brigade
342eme Autonomous Tank Company ( Hotchkiss H39 tanks with short barrel low velocity 37mm SA18 guns )
and the Polish BRIGADE AUTONOME DES CHASSEURS DE PODHALE ( organized and equipped as a French infantry brigade )
and that's all ... the remaining of the planned force stayed in France or was in Scotland waiting for shipping when things goes wrong in Belgium and were sent back to France .
In Norway, on the French side you can see ;
H39 , Lorraine 37 , Renault UE, Unic P107, Somua MCG , Laffly or Lattil tow of the AA guns, Peugeot 402 and Peugeot DKJ , and that's quite all ... and a lot of mules ... ;)
Lou,
You are a scholar and a gentleman. I started to sort out the timeline last night. You have confirmed what I sussed out. I appreciate the thoughtfulness! For a bit i was starting to think they were sunk on the way but it seems with all of the naval difficulties getting troops on, maybe they thought it best to not risk the Panhards. My dream of winter panhards is on hold.... for now!
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Yes, as noted above, there is a huge difference between stuff allocated, and stuff actually landed.
I had a look at Vauvillier Page 40, and it is just a section on the Char D2, so that must be a mistake.
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The forum is always an education 8) 8) 8)
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Yes, as noted above, there is a huge difference between stuff allocated, and stuff actually landed.
I had a look at Vauvillier Page 40, and it is just a section on the Char D2, so that must be a mistake.
the 345th Tank Company was created at the end of april 1940 . they were issued Chars D2 and ready around mid may 1940 . By this time, the central Norway Battle was lost, there was no need for tanks around Narvik and things goes wrong in France . The unit goes back to his bataillon and became part of De Gaulle 4th DCr ...
There were 2 other tank companies intended to fight in Norway, with old renault FT tanks . one made the travel to Scotland and back to France, the other was sent to army group 2 behind the Maginot line ...