Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: raykey on April 03, 2017, 09:34:29 PM
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Got a bit excited earlier today, GW are resurrecting Necromunda, memories flood back of days gone by building gangs etc, then GW giveth and GW taketh away, you can build Space marine units to fight each other, yawn, Are well such is life
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Got a bit excited earlier today, GW are resurrecting Necromunda, memories flood back of days gone by building gangs etc, then GW giveth and GW taketh away, you can build Space marine units to fight each other, yawn, Are well such is life
From my understanding, the rulesets are identical, or close enough that you can just use your old gangs...
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Not Necromunda. $250 set to play skirmish rules with existing armies from what I saw so far. Tau, Marines, Orcs. No gangs....at least from what I saw. Bleh.
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Yes, it sounds Necromunda-ish. A small scale skirmish game that you can play by buying a single box of figures. I have enough GW toys that I'll likely check it out, but it's too bad it's not a more formal resurrection of that game.
Perhaps if it does well, they might be inspired to release an expansion book that covers hive gangs and hive city warfare specifically.
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It's not Necromunda, but it is heavily inspired (rules wise) from the original game.
Having read most of the rules I could find online, watched/read a few battle reports and looked up the PDF...it's really a mash-together of Kill Team and Necromunda. They removed a lot of the post-game depth from Necromunda and have introduced much more skilled/violent models. The games should be quite quick and people have said that a campaign can be run in a day or two (players accumulate promethium caches --- the first to 15 win).
Sadly the books are limited to plastic kits which are available in bundles through GW. The terrain, however, looks excellent.
I'll play it when Audrey gets her copy but it's "not" Necromunda, that is correct. Just a new skirmish 40K game. If they support it and bring a lot more info/options to the bands that'd be stellar --- folks are already swapping out Necromunda tables/charts/skills to thicken it up a bit.
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I have to say I'm excited about this. I love the 40K universe but I just can't get into battles with 80 models per side. Something simple like this appeals to me. I took a look at Kill-Team, but it's just a modification of the 40K rules. I'm sick of reading full rules sets just to play a portion of the game. Where as the GW box games have been a lot of fun. Hell, they even add rules for some of them in White Dwarf. (Anyone notice the additional rules for Imperial Knights Renegades in an issue a couple months ago?) Maybe if this sells they'll make another box game of proper Necromunda.
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Well it sold.
It sold out, in 3 minutes in North America.
I'm going to try to get a copy from my FLGS on Saturday.
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Necromunda is one of the few GW games that I played and enjoyed. Seeing as I have plenty of figs, GW or otherwise, I'll pick up the rules and counters on eBay eventually.
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Yeah. I was excited when I heard about Necromunda being reanimated. I do hope they bring out a "hive gangs" expansion. Then there will be proper rules for genestealer gangs in a hive. I always wanted to have a stealer cult gang in necromunda.
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Yeah. I was excited when I heard about Necromunda being reanimated. I do hope they bring out a "hive gangs" expansion. Then there will be proper rules for genestealer gangs in a hive. I always wanted to have a stealer cult gang in necromunda.
The rules for Stealer Cults are already on the GW website to download!
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Yep, got them. I was meaning though that if they have a hive gang supplement then you can pit gangers against the cult.
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Well it sold.
It sold out, in 3 minutes in North America.
I'm going to try to get a copy from my FLGS on Saturday.
I think it is also sold out in the stores! Over here in the Old World even the shops had no chance. Strange policy.
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While the terrain is ace and the game looks fun (Necromunda/2ed 40k rules ARE fun so that goes without saying) several things about this annoy me. The whole Limited Edition thing is just a pain and seems an artificial method of drumming up interest like they've done with other games (that get inevitable reissues like Space Hulk) and the fact it's packaged with the tired old SM Scouts and Ork boyz sprues.
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Maybe this was a limited box set but another box set will come out and it will be Tyranids vs Grey Knights, or something like that but still have the same terrain, rulebook etc.
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I suspect that a number of their games will invariably be limited runs in reality. Kill Team is OOP for example. And that was one I was tempted to pick up.
Not tempted to buy a not-Necromunda Necromunda game however. Really disapointed if this is what they meant by their intention to release Necromunda.
The rules were good but it's more than the rules, it was the fact that you were gaming in a part of the 40k universe that wasn't dominated by space marines etc and felt that bit darker, one step removed, the very edges of humanity beneath all of that tech, scrabbling in the dirt trying to eek out some sort of living whilst fending off rivals. All whilst trying to climb the hive ladder to safety and wealth.
Glad I still have the old rules and enough gangs to keep me happy.
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I suspect that a number of their games will invariably be limited runs in reality. Kill Team is OOP for example. And that was one I was tempted to pick up.
Not tempted to buy a not-Necromunda Necromunda game however. Really disapointed if this is what they meant by their intention to release Necromunda.
The rules were good but it's more than the rules, it was the fact that you were gaming in a part of the 40k universe that wasn't dominated by space marines etc and felt that bit darker, one step removed, the very edges of humanity beneath all of that tech, scrabbling in the dirt trying to eek out some sort of living whilst fending off rivals. All whilst trying to climb the hive ladder to safety and wealth.
Glad I still have the old rules and enough gangs to keep me happy.
These are my feelings exactly. Well said, McFonz.
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Yeah, I'm with you Mcfonz ;)
Don't see the need to endlessly update games. Once I've found a setting and/or rule system that suits me then that's it. If there's anything in particular in either setting and/or rules that I don't like then I'll change it.....simple.
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I hear about this game from the sold out news :'(
The only thing I hear in the first comments was that GW plans to sell the rules book as PDF or ebook, but hadnt hear anymore about that point.
would be interesting to get a chance to buy the rules. o_o
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Not tempted to buy a not-Necromunda Necromunda game however. Really disapointed if this is what they meant by their intention to release Necromunda.
To be fair I think the association for Necromunda has been by nostalgic fans not GW. All the press I've seen was pretty clear this was a 40K skirmish game.
Either way, I hope there's a way to pick up the rules stand alone in the future. I'm interested but am not going to pay $130 for rules, some terrain and tired old scout and ork models. (Which I'm pretty sure I've got already). I haven't played a game of 40k in almost a decade but I probably still have enough old models boxed up to field a half dozen skirmish armies. There's definitely an appeal to being able to dust off old models and give them some new life.
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The rules are apparently more or less the last version of Necromunda. The limited runs on games are just to protect them from massive print runs not selling out and leaving piles of excess stock. Gorkamorka's massive multilanguage production runs nearly finished them off as a going concern. I bought about five copies at £5 each when they liquidated them. Since then they've been very careful to underproduce big box games to make sure they sell them all. Someone clearly underestimated demand on this.
They'll release the rules as an ebook and sell the 40k killteams and terrain normally. The game is Shadow War Armageddon. Hopefully we'll see Forgeworld do Shadow War Necromunda with some new Necromunda figs and gang rules.
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Well I look at Shadow War as a gateway game. If you like Shadow War, you'll love Necromunda. Local players are talking about running a SW campaign and after that ends switching to a Necromunda campaign.
-A
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I'm sure I heard somewhere that necromunda was going to be a FW redux like BB (which apparently got dropped on them by the studio).
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To be fair I think the association for Necromunda has been by nostalgic fans not GW. All the press I've seen was pretty clear this was a 40K skirmish game.
Nope. When GW announced they would be revisiting the old specialist games Necromunda was one of the specific names along with Blood Bowl and others.
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Ah,
Don't follow GW that closely any more so all I saw was what's been announced since the game was revealed and didn't see any references to Necromunda or the old gangs.
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I'd imagine a load of actual old school Necromunda players will also be jumping on it simply for terrain...win-win.
Also, GW kinda threw chum in the water when they announced the product and openly stated the rules were "basically Necromunda". That set a ton of people off on rants/expectations, etc.
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Well it sold.
It sold out, in 3 minutes in North America.
I'm going to try to get a copy from my FLGS on Saturday.
The GW rep told our manager it was seven minutes, but that fast, and it's hard to be sure.
We ordered a dozen, and will get two. We have a heck of a lot more folk who put down their interest in our order book. I am suggesting a drawing.
I'll be surprised if your FLGS will have any on Sat, but best of luck. We tend to get shut out of a lot of stuff. :'(
Doug
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I scored a copy from the GW site, I have no idea how. I was at my kid's soccer game, hauled ass to the computer the second I got into the house, and even frittered away some time moving some other terrain into and out of the cart before I checked out. St. Celestine must have been smiling down upon me ;)
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Well, have to admit it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
Which is, well, too bad, because I'd LIKE to be able to hold a proper grudge. ;)
Doug
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Count me in as one more person who is going to try and find the shadow war rules apart from the game. I'd love to do some skirmishing (inquisumunda anyone?) with my old 40k figs, and it appears that all the lists you need are all in one book or online for free.. I refuse to get back into the big rulebook and multiple codex malarky.
Is there any solid info on whether this is the necro they've been talking about or if that is to come? I remember the initial info that necro would be coming, but I don't think I've heard anything since then.
I still play Necro from time to time with the "Necromunda Community Edition" (NCE) from yaktribe. There are some dated mechanics, but it's still a great game that plays reasonably quickly.
For those that are interested, here's the link to the Shadowars free force downloads from GW covering a number of races.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/01/shadow-war-armageddon-pre-order-and-downloads/
They look exactly like Necromunda statlines and info. I may just give a couple of these lists a go with the NCE rules.
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Just to note that GW will apparently be selling the SWA rules digitally at the very least.
They may decide to do a printed run given the apparent popularity, but they've not announced as much (yet).
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Just to note that GW will apparently be selling the SWA rules digitally at the very least.
They may decide to do a printed run given the apparent popularity, but they've not announced as much (yet).
That seems to be backed up by this post from GW from April 4th:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/05/shadow-war-armageddon-rules-support/
From the post:
Don’t worry though – we we have some good news for you. We will be making the rules for this game more widely available, very soon...
...We’ll bring you news on exactly how and when you’ll be able to get ahold of the rules outside of the box, and the new factions, just as soon as we can.
I haven't bought new GW product in at least 5 years. Shadow War rules will probably be the first.
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I haven't bought new GW product in at least 5 years. Shadow War rules will probably be the first.
I hope that it meets your expectations (anticipations?) then! lol
Personally, I was interested, but being unable to buy it now (whilst review copies went out to random people who had no idea about/interest in SWA) has left me thinking I won't bother.
Besides, I actually wanted a new Necromunda; so in the meantime, as the old one's still free and I have everything for it already, I think I'll stick to that. :P
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To be fair to GW, then seemed to believe games like this would not sell at all (i.e. people in the know claiming specialist games were generally treated with contempt by higher up staff).
So from there they moved to lets test the water.
Selling out globally within about 10 minutes or something suggests they now are in a much better situation than before when it comes to knowing what sells. Of course, they could have found this out through market research...
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I hope that it meets your expectations (anticipations?) then! lol
Personally, I was interested, but being unable to buy it now (whilst review copies went out to random people who had no idea about/interest in SWA) has left me thinking I won't bother.
Besides, I actually wanted a new Necromunda; so in the meantime, as the old one's still free and I have everything for it already, I think I'll stick to that. :P
I hope so too, though if it's necromunda for 40k units I can't see how I'd be disappointed.
As well as my 2 much neglected 40k armies I've also been slowly acquiring various inquistorial-type figures when they show up used and cheap just because I like them and they fit my vision of what 40k was. Shadow war would be a great excuse to paint them up and do some narrative warband adventuring.
Like you, Necro what I think really want. However, but NCE works so well that I have a hard time imagining GW doing better and as I also have just about everything I could want (would be nice to have a Goliath gang though...) perhaps Shadow War might actually add more to my gaming life.
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I'd love an updated, supported Necromunda. If that's SWA, I'm all for it and here's hoping they work up lists for gangs asap. There was even rumor of a Necromunda PC game by the same folks who did Mordheim. If so, I'm definitely in.
On that note tho, GW must realize it is really in the 'disposable income - hobby/entertainment' business. Sure, it started out as toy soldiers and board games, but now that translates into books, graphic novels, and video games. I would think anything that does well in one area surely carries that weight into another, especially when it comes to fan favorites like Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Epic, Mordheim, Necromunda, and Battlefleet Gothic.
Someone at GW HQ has to have the business acumen to connect the dots, particularly when it's reinforced by massive interest and spikes in sales.
Or is that my 'still-plays-with-toy soldiers naivete' talking?
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Now to ponder over what would be cooler: Necromunda with a load of fancy new FW resin gangs, all individual sculpts or a plastic set for each gang.....that would be special! You could do a multi part hanger frame per faction, a leader "covermount" sprue per faction and a weapon frame to go with them. :-* :-*
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Was thinking a bit about Shadow War and I think this is a really wise choice for them. Both the game and releasing it before Necromunda.
-Will sell to those folks who will buy any game that GW makes.
-Will sell to those folks who will buy anything that smells like Necromunda while they wait for Necromunda.
-It's a safe bet and a fairly reliable gauge of what kind of market is out there for skirmish games in the 40k universe.
If folks like me, who abandoned GW years seriously planning on (perhaps even excited about) buying a GW product they've certaintly jumped some hurdles.
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Plastic Gangers all the way. Easy to modify, loads of options.
Or... (drumroll) an Inquisitor Box Game with a multi-option sprue for the Inquisitor (pick your Ordo), and a handful of plastic agents facing off against an Arch Heretic and his Cultists.
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As long as they stick with the original gangs (plus maybe a few more) so we can use our old Necromunda models I'd be happy. Plastic Hive scenery would be awesome. While the old scenery that came with the box of Necromunda and Outlanders was great the scenery never looked like it actually had a purpose such as a factory or slime pipes etc. I'd like to see a whole range of Necromunda terrain, Underhive dwellings and towns, Fighting pits, factories. Stuff that fits in with the territories you could gain in the campaigns. Although that would be super costly (people would still buy it, like Pokemon, "gotta catch 'em all")
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As long as they stick with the original gangs (plus maybe a few more) so we can use our old Necromunda models I'd be happy. Plastic Hive scenery would be awesome. While the old scenery that came with the box of Necromunda and Outlanders was great the scenery never looked like it actually had a purpose such as a factory or slime pipes etc. I'd like to see a whole range of Necromunda terrain, Underhive dwellings and towns, Fighting pits, factories. Stuff that fits in with the territories you could gain in the campaigns. Although that would be super costly (people would still buy it, like Pokemon, "gotta catch 'em all")
They're doing the terrain. It all slots together and is compatible with the recent releases like the promethium pipes and void shield. There are two individual sets in the Shadow Wars box and another three announced to come. See Lady Atia's blog.
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1854
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@ Andrew May & Dentatus:
Given the slightly off-the-wall release that was Genestealer Cults, I half-wonder if they were perhaps a proof-of-concept for making plastic Necromunda gang boxes.
As Andrew says, I'd expect them to do a big sprue frame for each gang. A gang box could be around £30-35, and have a big sprue divided into three frames (10 Gangers, Leader/Heavy upgrade parts, 2 Juves, and lots of weapons). That's not far off the current Genestealer kits, or to a lesser extent the AoS Blood Reaver kits.
Would we see all six Houses? Maybe. Would we see the Outlanders? I doubt it; that would likely go to FW (along with the special characters).
I suppose an alternative would be that GW do one or two more generic gangs, and then release House-specific upgrade sprues as add-ons. I doubt that would work anywhere near as well, but it does lessen both the risk and the number of big sprue sets that would be needed. It also allows the base sprues to be re-boxed and sold as Conscripts or Hive Militia, etc in 40k more easily.
@ Beefcake:
I think the old terrain was actually fine, and perhaps more appropriate that this newer stuff. In most cases, the gangs are not warring in the middle of a settlement or a working foundry/factory (although there is a Wild West showdown scenario). Rather, much of the gang fighting take place in the ruins of abandoned and non-functional areas of the Underhive, as they scavenge for loot, parts, and anything else of value. In that respect, whilst I would expect to see gantries, parts of structures, pipes, etc, I wouldn't expect to see too many things that look like they are fully-functional and recognisably in-use - anything like that would've been appropriated long ago! ;)
@ Eilif:
I think GW have seriously underestimated how many lapsed customers have not been tempted by the increasingly-gigantic size of game that 40k has now become. As long as sales are steady-ish, it's hard to tell who is buying (or even how many unique customers you have).
What I think the interest in SWA (hopefully) shows them is that if they returned to something better-detailed and more modest in scope (squad-to-platoon level games), they would suddenly have an explosion in customer numbers.
Just looking at the general way that GW games are perceived and enjoyed here on LAF is a pretty good indicator of that I would think.
@ Dentatus:
The thing about Inquisitors is that they and their henchmen can/do look extremely varied, and can therefore be made from just about any kits that GW currently produce. I'm therefore not sure what a dedicated plastic Inquisitor sprue would really provide that plastic gang kits (and even existing kits) wouldn't.
The main thing about the recent female Ordo Hereticus plastic model that GW made is basically that it's female. Male models are simple enough thanks to the myriad kits you can choose from, but female models are still pretty limited.
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Good point, but some structures could have been made to look more ruined I guess. My favourite terrain I think was the one that looked like subway access because I could easily imagine what it was for. I still liked the terrain, and in fact brought it out recently to play a sci fi game with my son.
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I have all the cardboard terrain for necro but none of the plastic bits to connect them.
I do have a 3d printer though
any help in making my own would be appreciated.
The bulkheads are 3" square (pretty much).
Specifically, the width is 3" including vertical slots to grip buttress pieces, whereas the heights are 3" plus the top slot to hold a floor level.
They don't have a bottom slots because the bulkheads are designed to clip together end-to-end (and the top slot of the lower bulkhead therefore forms the floor of the level above).
The foot of each bulkhead was crenellated so that it could be clipped to the top of another, and the heads therefore all had little gates moulded onto the tops to act as the female part of the union.
Finally, the slots into which the cardboard was inserted had little nubs inside which acted to squeeze the cardboard when it was pushed in, thus gripping it. This is also what caused the most wear on the cardboard parts over time, which led to the card being damaged and the structures getting rickety.
A better picture that shows all this is below:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Ev8AAOSwR0JUP-gn/s-l300.jpg)
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Unless they drastically change the rules, a sprue with 10 gangers would be a no go.
Ideally it would be a sprue of five gangers so they could sell it as a booster.
Juves would be two or three - again, on their own sprue.
Leader and heavies would probably have their own as well.
Starting gangs used to be around 8 models. Leader, Heavy, mixture of gangers and juves.
10 gangers for this would be overkill early on and also not create any follow on sales.
I'm not holding my breath on plastics either. I wouldn't be surprised if forgeworld just finecast the old models. And by the old ones, I mean the more recent resculpts which were hideous.
Plan for the worse, hope for the best. :D
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I'm not holding my breath on plastics either. I wouldn't be surprised if forgeworld just finecast the old models. And by the old ones, I mean the more recent resculpts which were hideous.
I thought a lot of the resculpts were great. The Goliaths, Orlocks, Redemptionists and van Saar were really good.
I'd be amazed to see plastics in any kind of variety. If Forgeworld do Necromunda I could see resin conversion parts for the IG plastics. Catachan to Goliath, Cadian to Orlocks, Scions to van Saar. I'd guess they'd mostly do resins. If Bloodbowl is anything to go by they'll do new Forgeworld sculpts and make some of the old metals available as limited finecast runs.
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Good point, but some structures could have been made to look more ruined I guess. My favourite terrain I think was the one that looked like subway access because I could easily imagine what it was for. I still liked the terrain, and in fact brought it out recently to play a sci fi game with my son.
It should look semi-ruined and run-down, rather than destroyed IMO. That was hard to do with the old style terrain set. The new stuff can be blended in with Cities of Death terrain if you wanted it to look more ruined (or just attacked with clippers!).
I really liked the tunnel part too (I think most people did) for the same narrative reasons that you liked. In fact, I always thought it was a shame that there weren't two such pieces (perhaps with rules for travelling between them) and also some air-vent pieces.
Outlanders added some welcome parts in the form of a sturdy walkway with sides, barriers, and lift (with rules for using it).
There's an amazing building by Rob Hawkins here (https://robhawkinshobby.blogspot.co.uk/p/necromunda-building.html), and a fair amount here (http://thenutoncave.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Necromunda) by Thib-0. There's also a modelled version of the old card stuff here (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/627817.page) by 92acclude on Dakka. What I love about these is that they capture the original studio look and style of the terrain, whilst not looking like something that's being used/lived in. Shabby and run down, but not ruined. Buildings that have been stripped out and left empty to rot. That sort of thing! :)
Unless they drastically change the rules, a sprue with 10 gangers would be a no go.
Ideally it would be a sprue of five gangers so they could sell it as a booster.
Juves would be two or three - again, on their own sprue.
Leader and heavies would probably have their own as well.
Starting gangs used to be around 8 models. Leader, Heavy, mixture of gangers and juves.
10 gangers for this would be overkill early on and also not create any follow on sales.
I'm not holding my breath on plastics either. I wouldn't be surprised if forgeworld just finecast the old models. And by the old ones, I mean the more recent resculpts which were hideous.
Plan for the worse, hope for the best. :D
Firstly, you only need ten models ever if you never run different equipment setups. Otherwise, if you want three or different heavy weapons for you gang to choose from, that's a corresponding number of models. Same with models armed with rifles vs those armed with pistols and CC weapons.
Secondly, most people buy more than one gang. So although GW might only sell a couple of boxes of each gang to a player, they might still sell several gangs to each player.
Thirdly, look at Bloodbowl for a closer example of how this is. You buy a team in a box, and dedicated players might buy two of a particular team. You aren't going to see many people buying lots of one box, and most won't buy more than one.
@ Wachaza:
I have a lot of the "newer" models, and there is a good reason that they are the only part of my Necromunda collection isn't exhaustive. The models on the whole were pretty... Amateur. :? Their best feature was the effort to make them modular, and the best-looking resculpts were the Goliaths and Scavvies by a long way. The Enforcers were also nice, but they were a new gang, same with Ash Waste Nomads. The Ratskins, Van Saar, Orlocks, Bounty Hunters, and Redemptions were all sadly much poorer than their earlier counterparts.
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@ Wachaza:
I have a lot of the "newer" models, and there is a good reason that they are the only part of my Necromunda collection isn't exhaustive. The models on the whole were pretty... Amateur. :? Their best feature was the effort to make them modular, and the best-looking resculpts were the Goliaths and Scavvies by a long way. The Enforcers were also nice, but they were a new gang, same with Ash Waste Nomads. The Ratskins, Van Saar, Orlocks, Bounty Hunters, and Redemptions were all sadly much poorer than their earlier counterparts.
A lot of the originals have the advantage of being Jes Goodwin sculpts so are classics but I like all the newer stuff bar the child like ratskins and the rather odd scavvies.
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(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aHYAAOSwPhdVBqob/s-l300.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-34ZH6NTcasA/UpHsqtB3peI/AAAAAAAABRY/nYOZXR6SLvU/s1600/photo+(34).JPG)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/62/ea/42/62ea42ed9364dcc0da1325532c8483dd.jpg)
I could go into depth but lets just say anatomically and pose wise they are woeful. Especially when compared to these:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-20kYeNWMRcI/UwIaZPSAm1I/AAAAAAAABls/O6IRnccWfq0/s1600/new+gangers.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s1VS7v7nkOM/VbxiJ_Fv9gI/AAAAAAAAEuQ/zRPTC17qozs/s1600/Front%2BRow.jpg)
I think the Perry's sculpted the older range of Orlocks, and for me, the quality shines through. You can see the attention to detail, pose and the anatomy is better.
The Ratskin resculpts were poor as well. Goliaths I was never a great fan of so I'm not sure.
Redemptionists -
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RdfP8aTgG_c/TekTNpfGk-I/AAAAAAAAAdA/6xVMYD79cfM/s1600/DSC_0302.JPG)(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/Redemptionist_and_Priest.jpg)
Vs
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/60/b7/d7/60b7d752a2e6b833f8e9174f752bc430.gif)
Note how one of the models in the new sculpts, can touch his shin whilst standing straight . . . . . ape arms. Just basic things like that which are first glance issues I would not expect from GW - or any other decent miniature manufacturer.
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Agreed. About the new sculpt. Modular is nice but not when the figs are chunky and blocky with none of the character or detail of the originals. I bought few of the new ones to add variety to my van saar but that was it.
As for terrain i like the look but at this point i can cram a table with multilevel terrain that I've built myself. Necro needs alot of terrain and properly dense table of gw terrain would be repetitive and incredibly expensive.
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Note how one of the models in the new sculpts, can touch his shin whilst standing straight . . . . . ape arms. Just basic things like that which are first glance issues I would not expect from GW - or any other decent miniature manufacturer.
Well, some of that is due the multi-part nature of the models.
Also, the old Redemptionist Deacon with a flamer has a hilariously long left arm.
Lots of old GW models had these sorts of "anatomical sculpting imprecisions" really, and it's part of what people regard as "charm".
Generally though, the level of sculpting across the whole of the original Necromunda line was very high, and I think it was fairly evident that the sculptors had rather enjoyed themselves. :)
The Fanatic sculpts however were all done by trainees, or by third-party sculptors IIRC. That's one reason that they are so mixed in quality, and why the ranges were as spottily-complete as they were.
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Here's another example of the old and new. Forgive my tabletop paint jobs and mediocre photography. The guy on the right is the later/new fig. Head is from the range but the hands and gun are other bits.
(http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/10/9/653469_md-.JPG)
At first glance it's not bad, but looking closer you see that every detail is chunkier on the new one and it has none of the grace of the originals. It's even worse when you have them in-hand. Add to that the fact that the new figs separate heads didn't have any of the charachteristic Van Saar hair style or facial hair and one wonders how much oversight they even had. As I said above I got a couple for variety, but only 3 or 4 out of 18 are the newer scupts. The whole gang is here blogged here:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2014/10/12/new-paint-for-old-friends-necromunda/
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Firstly, you only need ten models ever if you never run different equipment setups. Otherwise, if you want three or different heavy weapons for you gang to choose from, that's a corresponding number of models. Same with models armed with rifles vs those armed with pistols and CC weapons.
This isn't particularly accurate. Most of the original starter gangs came with 8 models. But you would soon shoot up to over ten in a matter of 2-3 games.
Juves turn into gangers, and then you buy a new juve etc. Heavies, I think you could have max 2 basic for gangs, unless you skilled up another ganger to be one. Leaders - you only have one.
Now, you could put the starting 8 models on a sprue. But ideally you would still want to be able to offer additional models. You could put say 14-15 on a sprue and then you really would cover everything. But if the intent was to encourage follow on sales . . .
But as I said, I somewhat doubt we will see gangs in plastic. As of yet, there has been no indication that we will see rules for gangs, rather than kill-teams. In fact, calling them Kill Teams is also suggestive of what I thought which is that these rules coming out coincide with Kill Team being OOP.
They also coincide with the information from Adapticon in regards to GW's vision for 40k, which I won't go into here in great depth as it is something for the GW chat thread. Suffice to say that it sounds a lot like they may well be taking a step back towards 2nd edition. Which of course, is the rules Necromunda are based upon.
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I could go into depth but lets just say anatomically and pose wise they are woeful.
I'm with you. I owned about six or seven first gen Necromunda gangs, and I also had the 2nd generation Redemptionists and Ratskins. They were simply not good sculpts- and I love Cawdor and Redemption. I got rid of them. I kept the 2nd gen Enforcers and Scavvies though.
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@ Eilif:
Yeah, that's a great example of the issue I had.
To be fair, the differences are less obvious if you stick to just one generation of models, but the Van Saar got screwed both times there. Not only are they the joint-smallest gang in the original range, but they are also the smallest gang in the Fanatic re-releases too. :(
(Your link doesn't work correctly BTW).
@ mcfonz:
I'm not really following you, sorry. ???
Having more models than you strictly "need" gives you options for when you set up your starting gang, or add new recruits to a gang, or to reflect skills and/or equipment changes and/or progression of gangers.
So, having a few Heavies with various weapons gives you choices when you set your gang up, and (if equipped with any special weapons) gives you options if one of your gangers happens to get a suitable skill.
However, this is an example. I'm not suggesting that you can recruit more than two Heavies, or that Juves always remain Juves, or anything else of that sort. I'm also not suggesting that you have to have a huge maxed-out starting gang either.
It's also worth noting that some gangs (in particular those with access to Shooting skills, or that have both Shooting and Combat) are likely to want different weapons as the campaign progresses and they gain skills. So a chap with a Lasgun that picks up Gunfighter will probably want to swap to a pair of pistols for instance. In these cases, it's worth having some spare models with different loadouts so that you can avoid too much confusion.
I therefore don't think a Gang box giving you 10-12 mixed models is that far out of question (and certainly not if it's priced accordingly). In fact, it's much easier for GW to pack and stock just one kit/box per gang, and if you happen to need a couple of extra figures, it requires you to buy a whole Gang box again.
Will we ever see plastic Gangs? Well, I never thought I'd see plastic Genestealer Cultists, or plastic Adeptus Mechanicus, so I guess anything is possible as long as GW thinks it will sell well enough.
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Will we ever see plastic Gangs? Well, I never thought I'd see plastic Genestealer Cultists, or plastic Adeptus Mechanicus, so I guess anything is possible as long as GW thinks it will sell well enough.
I was pretty surprised at the release of both those factions. Plus, GW recently showed Nurgle-specific chaos cultists. Plastic Necro gangs are not impossible. I could even see Arbites coming down the pipe, which would be the last major Imperial military faction.
Why they haven't done Sisters in plastic yet is something of a mystery to me though, but I always pick the gimp of any game system.
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Glibear and McFonz,
I think you both may be part right. The number of figures needed really depends on two things.
1) Whether or not you want to play WYSIWYG. Part of what makes necro great is customizability. If you only have 10 figs you are very limited in what you can field. Which leads me to point 2...
2) Whether or not you are playing in a campaign. Campaign play inevitably needs to new weapon acquisitions level up's etc. If you're trying to be even somewhat WYSIWYG then a campaign will require more than 10 figs.
I think that 18-20 models is a good number of figs to get and it's about what I've acquired for each of my gangs (Orlock, Van Saar, Escher, Delaque, Cawdor). You can't cover every eventuality, but if you choose them sensibly then you will have about enough figs to swap around and cover most upgrades, acquisitions, etc. This swapability is also why I never did the "name-on-base" thing that alot of folks do. Over the course of a campaign I may need to use different figs to represent the same ganger and I may need to swap figs as I move acquired weapons to gangers who can make better use of them.
I've only done one Campaign (still going on now) but with about 10 games under my belt so far I definitley see where planning ahead and acquiring more figs if-possible is the way to go.
I really liked the tunnel part too (I think most people did) for the same narrative reasons that you liked. In fact, I always thought it was a shame that there weren't two such pieces (perhaps with rules for travelling between them) and also some air-vent pieces.
My favorite part of the old Necromunda terrain. I've still got my Necromunda and Outlanders terrain, but that didn't stop me from buiding another "subway" entrance of my own when I went on a scatter terrain binge.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2014/09/10/scatter-terrain-for-sci-fi-and-pos/
(http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/9/2/644031_md-Pallets%2C%20Terrain.JPG)
Though truthfully, "build" might be a bit of a stretch. If really just found a piece of a toy that looked right and after a little bit of cutting I added some ballast and cardboard and painted it.
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@ eilif:
Yes, I think we are in agreement on all counts!
I did try playing box-vs-box gangs when I was young, but it was hard going for anything other than one-off games.
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Whats this set selling for retail? Ive seen anywhere from $130 to $240 USA.(marked up already by scalpers) I've seen its "out of print" but im sure it will be restocked in some form. I could do without the terrain & figs anyway.
Id like to just buy the rulebook.
What factions are in the book? (obviously Orks & Marines)
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It has an MSRP of $130. Expect (if you find it in stock at online retailer) to drop that buy 15-20%. A friend located one for $101 shipped. However, some stores are saying that GW is not providing them with the copies they ordered, so who knows.
The rulebook contains Imperial Guard, Space Marine Scouts, and Orks.
The other 12 current factions (made from explicitly plastic kits, unfortunately) are available in a free PDF.
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Thank you kindly. I'm hoping Gangers will be part of it eventually. But I guess you could use Guard or Cultists for it.
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No idea of the US price but in the uk its £80 which a lot less than many people were suggesting when the game was first announced.
I believe its marines (mostly scouts with some options like termie or veteran) as well as guard and orks. There are also Ork clan rules and marine chapter rules as well as some IG rules (I think Steel Legion are in).
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Wow! I just saw your post about the 'Original' vs 'Newer' ranges.
I always wanted to get some of the newer figures, but I think you have officially made me pleased that I went out of my way to get all the original figures and never took notice of the newer ones. I can't believe they were ever actually made by GW. They look like Necromunda themed third-party replicas...
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I never knew those 2nd version of Necromunda sculpts were done by trainees. Makes a lot of sense, they were pretty sub-par.
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I actually quite like the redux Ratskins. A few of the old ones weren't crusty-looking enough. Ratskins should look like scavvies wearing animal skins :)
The one that really puzzles me is the Redemptionists. Shane Hoyle sculpted an amazing multi-part gang that was never released, which I have most but not all of. (I put some pics up on the CCM website, and can post some better ones here if you like). I have no idea why GW released the doss redux Redemptionists instead of Hoyle's sculpts. Specialist Games made some seriously bad decisions towards the end of its life!
Also, kinda amazed we get to have this thread rather than have it folded into the general GW discussion thread ;)
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I see sneaky old Mantic games have put a limited offer on their Battlezone terrain bundles where they throw in a copy of the Deadzone 2.0 rulebook for free. They must've expecting an increase in interest in the Deadzone terrain off the back of Shadow War. Don't miss a trick!
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The one that really puzzles me is the Redemptionists. Shane Hoyle sculpted an amazing multi-part gang that was never released, which I have most but not all of. (I put some pics up on the CCM website, and can post some better ones here if you like).
Please d so, I am most intrigued.
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I just got a copy, if anyone has a question, I will try to answer.
Im just going to unload the terrain on Ebay or Bartertown, I have enough terrain already.
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I have all the cardboard terrain for necro but none of the plastic bits to connect them.
I do have a 3d printer though
any help in making my own would be appreciated.
http://www.thingiverse.com/Sirbats/designs. This helpful?
Grimm
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This helpful?
Grimm
Cool, I may see about casting some of those in resin. Thanks for the link :)
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Hi Samsonov,
Here is a pic of the unreleased Redemptionists. The chainsaw guy and the two guys flanking him are all unreleased parts, the others I had to complete with various released bits. The minis have lots of lovely details, like clubs wrapped in barbed wire.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/991/Qul7xi.jpg)
They also make quite good mechanicus underlings :)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/7200/xbPq2r.jpg)
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Nicely sculpted figs. The ones that they did release weren't as well done but maybe GW decided that a Necro-KKK gang might not be the best thing for a family-friendly game company?
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Yep, those are very nice if a bit too KKK. Still, probably would have sold more than the specialist games ones.
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If you want hood cultists, just get a box of Frost grave Cultists. Northstar even makes a sci-fi accessories set for them.
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The figures are pretty good, though the heads make them look like Space Pixies with bags over their helmets.
Moving back up the thread, the Perry figures were great (I used them as reinforcements for the Tallarn that made up the core of my gang), the Jes Goodwin ones were good, and the Gary Morley (?) Ones so so.
The Necromunda 2 figures less so.
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I think through rose tinted specs, everyone is forgetting the fundamental flaw with all the metals: necromunda was a campaign system where you would upgrade your gangers...with no way of actually representing them on the tabletop! We used to just use stock figures and "remember" that the goliath leader had a bionic eye, power fist and carapace armour (or whatever) by the tenth game. Even as a kid I thought it was quite a silly system.
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I think through rose tinted specs, everyone is forgetting the fundamental flaw with all the metals: necromunda was a campaign system where you would upgrade your gangers...with no way of actually representing them on the tabletop! We used to just use stock figures and "remember" that the goliath leader had a bionic eye, power fist and carapace armour (or whatever) by the tenth game. Even as a kid I thought it was quite a silly system.
This is true, but as I pointed out before the range of figs was wide enough for most factions that if you collected most of them you'd have representations most upgrades and weapons options availble to you. Some of the more uncommon options won't be represented, but it's a compromise you have to make, just the same as any RPG or campaign-based skirmish system.
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I updated figures as they progressed, though I started out with all lasguns and just added figures generally.
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Ah good times. I played Escher and had all the figs, more than I could use in a gang actually- so when I switched a weapon I was good to go.
When I played Mordheim I was actually pretty mental... if a witch hunter acolyte lost an arm I'd model a new one with no arm.
I must have had a lot of free time.
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Thats the reason I played Spyrers- no conversion needed and 4-5 members.
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This is true, but as I pointed out before the range of figs was wide enough for most factions that if you collected most of them you'd have representations most upgrades and weapons options availble to you. Some of the more uncommon options won't be represented, but it's a compromise you have to make, just the same as any RPG or campaign-based skirmish system.
This.
Most of the pistols could be said to be holstered and most gangers had a holster modeled on them. For close combat weapons, if we didn't have a mini to hand that was easily convertable, eg swap the knife for a sword, we'd just glue it onto the back of a new one etc. The heavy weapons were all seperate so swapping them out wasn't too hard either. That really only leaves the special weapons. Again, most gangs were in the process of getting those as well, the Orlocks at least had a flamer. Which wouldn't have been too hard.
But if it was a real struggle, we'd just write it on the roster and go with that. No biggy, it was too fun a game to be overly fussed with.
Again, if they were to go with plastics, then a sprue of five ganger models would be great for this as you could buy and build them as needed each time a basic ganger advances. Or if you wanted to start again but were happy with the heavies and leaders etc.
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Yep, it was pretty easy to remember what was what, and as long as a model with a rifle had a rifle...the type was easy enough to remember. There's no real alternative (even now). If you're dedicated enough, sure, model up a bunch of stuff - if you're a magnetizing ninja, go nuts. But small bits of wargear aren't necessary to model.
This is where the arguably awful plastics shined a bit - you could pop off the arms, lol. lol
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Andrew's comment about rose-tinted glasses made me wonder why I remember Necro so fondly. And I never actually liked the rules! (In short: gangs quickly unbalanced over time, normal GW problem of ineffective shooting - all that GW art of armies lined up meters away from each other blasting away to apparently no effect certainly reflected the rules).
I think it was the poses of the minis. I've never liked the way the minis are so uniform (Goliaths *never* wear shirts? WTF?) but the poses are great. My hazy recollection is that at the time a lot of GW minis were static poses - you saw whole armies of orks and marines and high elves etc holding weapons but not really doing anything with them. The Necro minis were dodging forwards, taking aim, flattening themselves against cover etc. It made you want to play games using them.
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As a counterpoint to the rose-tinted glasses, I've been playing necromunda a few times a year for the past year and I'm loving it. To be clear I only played one game of Necromunda when it was first announced and I using the NCE verison from Yaktribe, but it's not dramatically different from original Neco, just cleaned up and balanced.
I will agree that after 10 games or so, you will likely get some pronounced divergence in power the gangs involved in a campaign. However, around that point it's probalby time to start a new one anyway or get together and collectively rebalance and carry on. Regardless, I found that necro really delivered what I had always hoped (since I bought it in 1994) that it would. A fun and fast game with loads of charachter and great scenarios.
One other point I would make is that it hasn't been my experience that shootign is inneffective. Quite the contrary, it's been quite deadly. Thus, both for this and for fluffy reasons I think that Necro needs tons of terrain. It helps moderate the shootyness of certain gangs and provides the movement options that a game like Necromunda needs. I like to tell folks that it's much better to play on a 3"x3' (or even a 2.5x2.5) table that is crammed with terrain than a 4x4 that is more sparsely covered.
As relates to nostalgia-clouding-judgement, I went back and tried 2nd edition 40k (the version I started with) a couple years ago and it was terrible.
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In my experience, the problem is that 1 point off the mostly-3s statline that's typical of many gangers makes a notable difference, and 2 points is basically broken. Whilst the injuries do help to counter some of the skills/stat increases, it only takes a few games (maybe three or four, depending on how much XP is earned/rolled?) before the difference between two gangs is often quite pronounced. However, that's also a product of the D6-based mechanics (which are very limited and linear), as well as everything else.
Funnily enough, I found that the original terrain was actually pretty bad for gaming with. It didn't offer enough full cover (it was full of holes and gaps), and that encouraged everybody to constantly lurk in -1/-2 partial cover all game. Which terrain is played with (original box stuff or homemade) is probably a huge factor in whether the game feels balanced to various people or not, as much as whether enough terrain was used.
In end, people who like Necromunda usually seem to accept these things as part of the game. Personally, I've been itching to re-write it for about ten years now! lol
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In my experience, the problem is that 1 point off the mostly-3s statline that's typical of many gangers makes a notable difference, and 2 points is basically broken. Whilst the injuries do help to counter some of the skills/stat increases, it only takes a few games (maybe three or four, depending on how much XP is earned/rolled?) before the difference between two gangs is often quite pronounced. However, that's also a product of the D6-based mechanics (which are very limited and linear), as well as everything else.
Funnily enough, I found that the original terrain was actually pretty bad for gaming with. It didn't offer enough full cover (it was full of holes and gaps), and that encouraged everybody to constantly lurk in -1/-2 partial cover all game. Which terrain is played with (original box stuff or homemade) is probably a huge factor in whether the game feels balanced to various people or not, as much as whether enough terrain was used.
In end, people who like Necromunda usually seem to accept these things as part of the game. Personally, I've been itching to re-write it for about ten years now! lol
I agree with your assessment of the effects of a 2 point increase.
However, in my experience You have to make some seriously impressive victories and incredible dice luck to get multiple increases in the same stat for a given miniature in even 10 games. It takes a couple of succesfull games to get a level-up and the level-ups are randomly (some folks hate this) determined between all of your available stats and a range of special abilities so the chances of having the same stat increased twice inside of 10 games is pretty slim. Gangs do tend to diverge around 10 games though, often as much a result of the random nature of advances as much as victories on the field.
If you play to play a campaign past 10 games, I advise accepting the loss of a bit of competitiveness, and get someone to GM (Outlanders suggests this) to even things out a bit, provide a bit of a boost to weaker gangs and provide suitably difficult challenges to tougher gangs.
I agree with you about the original terrain though. It's a good starting point, but it's only enough for a much smaller board than the games pictures suggested and you need ALOT of scatter terrain to fill it up.
Out of curiosity, have you played the NCE rules? It's still necromunda -with alot of the randomness that implies- but I've found that the tweaks and rebalances they've applied have made for a much more balanced and clear ruleset and a better game overall.
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I didn't mean to suggest that one stat would be regularly boosted that much across a whole gang, sorry!
Rather, that after about four games you have likely levelled most gangers about twice. Any decent combinations arising from that can quickly make that model disproportionately more powerful than others, and if a gang that's lucky to have a couple like that against a gang that has a few unlucky combinations... Well, let's just say that a lot of people don't enjoy the losing streaks that seem to be typical of these games. Personally, although I don't mind the randomness as such, I do feel the skills and a few other critical things are not very well balanced - no way is Van Saar on the same level as Goliath for example.
I haven't played the CE version of the game, but I did try some of the revised skill tables that were worked on by fans after Underhive was released somewhat DOA. To this day, I find it weird that GW chose to change things that were perfectly fine (the House weapons idea was awful), but failed to fix something as fundamental as the skill tables. The revised skill tables I tested were better (and highlighted them as being a key part of balance), but more recently we just played the classic version with the Sustained Fire and High Impact rules from Underhive.
The issue for me with the CE version is that it tried to add too many things that weren't needed (like more weapons) as well as applying fixes - and at that point it no longer appealed to me the same way because I felt it just broke a different part of the game instead. I feel a bit that way about the Outlander gang re-writes too, although the Spyrer efforts do look pretty good to me.
I love Necromunda (no, I really do!), but I think it desperately needs a re-write that frees it from it's 2E40k roots and lets it be it's own game.
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I love Necromunda (no, I really do!), but I think it desperately needs a re-write that frees it from it's 2E40k roots and lets it be it's own game.
Quoted for truth, I feel exactly the same way. For myself, I went back to Confrontation to solve that problem (well, something I made up that borrowed very heavily from Confrontation). And IMHO the Confrontation minis are far superior too :D
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I'm really rather excited about SWA. I've played a few Necromunda campaigns in the past (up to maybe a dozen or so games max, but we didn't get too much disparity in gang 'power' - maybe we just got lucky). Having played Inquisitor last year, my love for the 40K mythos has been rekindled (having given up on 40K proper several years ago) & I've been on the lookout for a good skirmish system that plays a bit faster than Inquisitor, but will still support GM-led, story-driven scenarios. SWA looks like it might well have potential in that regard, especially with the rumours of the standalone rulebook to include Inquisitorial warbands. As much as I loved the old trading post and gang territories systems, I can see why they've been dropped when dealing with the military forces covered in SWA. Hopefully they'll bring out a proper old school gang warfare expansion/companion game with cool minis, but even if not, a bit of tinkering should be able to make the old Necromunda gang lists work with SWA.
(I'm going to have terrain covered once my Kickstarter from Battle Systems arrives, which I got a bit carried away with - dense, multi-level sci-fi terrain is not going to be a problem for me. ;) )
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The issue for me with the CE version is that it tried to add too many things that weren't needed (like more weapons) as well as applying fixes - and at that point it no longer appealed to me the same way because I felt it just broke a different part of the game instead. I feel a bit that way about the Outlander gang re-writes too, although the Spyrer efforts do look pretty good to me.
I love Necromunda (no, I really do!), but I think it desperately needs a re-write that frees it from it's 2E40k roots and lets it be it's own game.
Interesting. I've found NCE to be refreshing and well balanced though I have not played NCE Outlanders yet. As for the mechanics, always thought that Necromunda was very well suited to 2nd edition 40k. Certainly far more than 2nd edition 40k ever was! :D
To each is own I guess.
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@ Genghis:
Actually, the modifications would probably help get more games in, as well as cycle the campaign to a conclusion before players lose interest. Not a bad thing, and it keeps things manageable.
@ eilif:
Although I agree that 40k2E suited Necromunda better than 40k in a lot of ways, it is still limited by things that 40k was never designed for (like progression) as well as things that were never factored into Necromunda which were nonetheless a part of 40k (like a lack of armour/saves on models, and low wounds/toughness). Although I understand perfectly well why this is, the disparity wasn't ever really addressed in the rules mechanics.
Add to that a lot of what I'd call "legacy rules" like the to-hit mechanic (why exactly do you subtract BS from the arbitrary number 7?) and the to-wound table (needed in a game between humans only... because why?), and the game just doesn't telegraph that well once stat increases and skills start becoming more common - hence why so few games' worth of progression are needed to knock the game balance out of whack. Don't get me wrong, any game with progression and injuries will always be unbalanced over time, but in Necromunda this happens quite fast.
Anyway, I've moaned enough, apologies! Back to the original topic. :P ;)
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I've played a pretty long Necromunda campaign only a few years ago and enjoyed the hell out of it.
It was new to me as Daeothar wanted to get into it again.
I used to play Gorka Morka during it's last days and found it similar enough, though really different tactics-wise.
It did suffer from some of the same problems, as mentioned here. Some models got way to powerfull.
In necromunda I ended up with an infiltrating, sprinting powerhouse Goliath gangleader, who would basicly be in you neck on turn one.
Gorka_Morka yielded me a BS-skill loaded Grot with a souped up gun that would rain havoc and everyone feared my mates gunner on his main truck.
It was all part of the game and we sure didn't take it to seriously.
The rules aren't the best I ever played. But they were fun, fast and made sense.
40k now just feels clunky and a lot of units don't feel right.
So if SWA gives me some fun, fast and logical rules that allow me to play in a universe I love, I'm happy.
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Necromuda did not had the opportunity to florish like Blood Bowl and turn into a pretty balance game rule system. However, you should not expect great balance and play for the fun factor.
I'm looking forward to playing SWA, especially if as I read online, you can get a game done under 2 hours...the Grimdark (tm) universe is a fun place to throw dices, so I look forward in dusting off my RT Orks and my Chaos SM/Cultists.
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So if SWA gives me some fun, fast and logical rules that allow me to play in a universe I love, I'm happy.
This. I've no interest in the unwieldy beast that 40K has become, but still love the setting.
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@ eilif:
Although I agree that 40k2E suited Necromunda better than 40k in a lot of ways, it is still limited by things that 40k was never designed for (like progression) as well as things that were never factored into Necromunda which were nonetheless a part of 40k (like a lack of armour/saves on models, and low wounds/toughness). Although I understand perfectly well why this is, the disparity wasn't ever really addressed in the rules mechanics.
Add to that a lot of what I'd call "legacy rules" like the to-hit mechanic (why exactly do you subtract BS from the arbitrary number 7?) and the to-wound table (needed in a game between humans only... because why?), and the game just doesn't telegraph that well once stat increases and skills start becoming more common - hence why so few games' worth of progression are needed to knock the game balance out of whack. Don't get me wrong, any game with progression and injuries will always be unbalanced over time, but in Necromunda this happens quite fast.
Anyway, I've moaned enough, apologies! Back to the original topic. :P ;)
This isn't entirely true.
40k didn't have a progression system but it did have unit special rules. All Necromunda did was introduce similar rules in a system of progression.
Also, it did have armor saves - but you had to buy them. In many ways it was very much like Warhammer Quest in that sense.
It also was not as broken/unbalanced as people proclaim. I played a number of campaigns and there was never a huge issue of unbalancing, in fact, some players enjoyed being the underdog for the cap bonus. The issue we found is that if you played a campaign beyond say, 10 games, you then needed to start introducing narrative to the system to help prevent the top gangs at that point becoming ridiculously overpowered.
My experience of running Necromunda campaigns is that typically, where gangs become more powerful than others by a nearly unbridgeable gap there are two main reasons 1) the player is just very good/lucky 2) people are 'fudging' die rolls in the post game set up.
By that I mean people who don't play all of the scenarios and just go straight out gang war every time. There are scenarios deliberately designed to be more balanced and brink down the risk factor for the underdog. The old shoot out scenario was one such, people didn't like it because you didn't start with your entire gang.
Things like not becoming outlawed as well, which should be a risk, could really take the imbalance down a notch or two.
As with all campaigns that are progression based, you really need a narrative and a campaign manager - just to make sure that that ganger who reached gang leader level has had the fight with the gang leader for leadership of the gang - another factor often overlooked by players.
In this day and age, it's possible to do all of the rolls online in forums for all to see so that is a little easier to uphold.
But for me, a campaign should always have narrative - there are folk on here that have shared their campaign newsletters which really show what can be done when really investing into a narrative progression campaign.
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I never played a campaing with Necromunda, many one off games though (so basically kill team before kill team) I imagined that once a player reached certain heights, ie become too overpowered, then the higher tiers of the Hive saw their potential and they made their way up higher as strongarms for the top brass.
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Campaigns shouldn't be that long. You only need 15 promethium to win.
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Yep, some people have finished a campaign in a single day (which is where I think the tournament stuff is aimed). A weekend would be an easy way to run a small SWA campaign. Personally I'll prefer Necromunda for the additional chunk, but SWA is the right direction.
What does amuse me on the 40K-based forums are the people who are reacting to certain 2nd ed. mechanics with either shock "oh, how neat!", or "oh, how awful!". There's nothing that makes me chuckle more than people outwardly decrying to-hit modifiers or armour save modifiers as being so complex and impossible to game. lol "Basic maths! IMPOSSIBLE!"
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I think Im going to try Eldar. Im hoping that the extra factions get a bit more polishing and some testing before going in the reprint of the book.
The shuriken catapults dont seem right.
The basic Guardian catapult is 0-8/8-16 +1 short range
The "Superior" Avenger catapult is 0-9/9-18 no mods
Its only 1-2 inches extra and no mod. So A Guardian hits better than a full Aspect warrior- makes no sense.
And wouldnt Eldar send Rangers anyway? Not Guardians- part time citizen soldiers. Even Scorpions with their stealth/infiltrate seem a better choice.
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What does amuse me on the 40K-based forums are the people who are reacting to certain 2nd ed. mechanics with either shock "oh, how neat!", or "oh, how awful!". There's nothing that makes me chuckle more than people outwardly decrying to-hit modifiers or armour save modifiers as being so complex and impossible to game. lol "Basic maths! IMPOSSIBLE!"
Of course, you mean Basic Arithmetic ... :-)
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@ mcfonz:
What I wrote is perfectly true. Suffice to say that in 40k models with special abilities/skills were mostly designed by the game creators rather than generated by players, and that armour in Necromunda is both rare and works a little differently than in 40k. But I'm tired of arguing tiny details TBH, so I'll leave it there unless there is anything genuinely new to say.
@ Elbows:
What's interesting to me is that it's a hybrid of the 2E40k and AoS rules, and that many 40k players are arguing back-and-forth over it without having played either game. I suspect that 8E will be more like SWA than not, but I guess we'll see.
As for modifiers... The (real) arguments are that it's time-consuming over the course of a whole game with loads of miniatures per side, and that it makes it hard for players to learn/remember them all. Really though, that's only true if the list of possible modifiers is huge. If the list of modifiers is more controlled however, it's actually a good simple (and quick) mechanic that's easy to grasp and retain.
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I picked up a second box of Shadow War yesterday. I dropped into the local game store (45 minutes away) to see if they had any terrain and to pick up a squad of Skittari I had been eyeing, and the guy at the counter said "We got this new game in... apparently it's sold out". I was sort of astonished that no one had jumped on it, and he indicated the 40K crowd there had no interest. They only got in one and it sounded like their distributor sort of talked them into it. The real funny thing was I had contacted them about two weeks ago to order me one, and they never responded. Weird all around.
I'm happy they are adding Sisters and Inquisition to the mix, I haven't had the ladies on the table for almost two decades.
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@ Dr Mathias:
Lucky you! :D
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I think I've decided to get the book and use my old necromunda terrain
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@ Dr Mathias:
Lucky you! :D
Lucky for my friend who wanted a copy ;)
He just told me he called the store last week and they told him they weren't planning on getting any.
Shaking my head...
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I've been a huge fan of Necromunda, ever since it came out.
I played many a campaign back in the late nineties when I was in uni. The balancing problems of high end gangs versus new ones was pretty obvious, but there were always ways around this.
We used to have a pretty large group back then, I believe around 20 players? I was there loyally every week, but there were those who missed games and then lagged behind, especially when we managed to play two games a night. Usually, there were several games going on at once, and you could either challenge a player beforehand (on ther roster), or just play whoever was available.
It was entirely possible that a gang with 2 games under its belt would face off against a veteran gang of 10 or more games. In such cases, one of the organizers or other players would GM, usually playing another gang, and more often than not that 3rd party would be kept secret until it was unleashed on the unsuspecting players (favoring the lower level player).
Those gangs usually were Spyrers, Arbites or Space Marines. But we also had zombie hordes and even an ork raid!
Secret objectives and/or triggered events were also used to great effect. Think cave-ins, sludge eruptions, radiation hazards, a rogue Genestealer or Lictor, Giant Rats, Milliasaurs or Ripper Jacks, automated defenses etc, etc.
The goal was to have fun, and all of those games were extremely fun, also for the underdog player because of the above. And the bonusses in the after-game because of them being underdogs helped a lot of course. Especially since the league was so large.
As the Voivod mentioned; some years ago, we made a deal; I'd start a Gorka Morka force, and he'd start a Necromunda gang. We ended up only ever playing Necromunda, but those games were a lot of fun again. However, I did miss some variety, since we only had 3 gangs in our group at that time.
Still; I'd start up another campaign any time, because I find the game so enjoyable, flaws and all.
Also, I have many unfinished armies lying around for 40K, which we abandoned after 6th ed came out, so this whole Shadow Wars: Armageddon thing might just be the trigger to get those fledgling forces worked into something playable.
I was prepared to basically ignore the entire thing, as I've done with just about anything GW for many years now. Even when I was made aware of this new release. But I must admit, having now read up on some threads, having just downloaded the extra Kill Team lists, and thinking the whole thing over, I might just bite after all... ::)