Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: greatescapegames on April 05, 2017, 01:04:02 AM
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Out this month and up for pre-order! http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/books-1/sword-spear/sword-spear-fantasy.html
(http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/_/s_s_cover.jpg)
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Looks very interesting. A quick question, for which I couldn't find an answer easily in the link: what basing does the game use?
Thanks!
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Big bases à la Hail Caesar / Impetus.
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what basing does the game use?
The game is unit based. All units must be the same frontage (or nearly the same). Typical unit frontages are 80mm for 15mm figures and 120mm for 28mm figures, but you can use any unit size you like. All distances are given in Distance Units (DU), where 1 DU is half the unit frontage.
Here's a 15mm orc army with 80mm frontage units :
(http://i59.tinypic.com/9r1us1.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/1zodul2.jpg)
15mm Dwarf army:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/j6pgjt.jpg)
And some 28mm figures with 120mm frontage units:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/10qb4hf.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2icbic0.jpg)
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Thanks - so it could be played either with individual 60mm-froned HOTT elements or two (or four?) 60mm elements together?
I'm intrigued by the multiplayer aspect mentioned in the links. Does the game work well with multiple independent players? Obviously there are few historical examples of such battles, but I'm keen to find a ruleset that would allow a number of unaligned armies to take the field at the same time.
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Ooo!
Now that's interesting.
Will it be available at Salute?
Yes!
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Thanks - so it could be played either with individual 60mm-froned HOTT elements or two (or four?) 60mm elements together?
I'm intrigued by the multiplayer aspect mentioned in the links. Does the game work well with multiple independent players? Obviously there are few historical examples of such battles, but I'm keen to find a ruleset that would allow a number of unaligned armies to take the field at the same time.
We often play with 2-3 players per side.
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Thanks - so it could be played either with individual 60mm-froned HOTT elements or two (or four?) 60mm elements together?
Yes. Although if you're talking about 28mm, then with the smaller (60mm frontage) unit size, movement rates and shooting ranges might seem small compared to figure size.
I'm intrigued by the multiplayer aspect mentioned in the links. Does the game work well with multiple independent players? Obviously there are few historical examples of such battles, but I'm keen to find a ruleset that would allow a number of unaligned armies to take the field at the same time.
I don't think this would work with any set of big battle rules. It can work in skirmish games, where there might be an objective to accomplish such as grabbing treasure. But in a big battle game, even if the mechanics of the game allowed it, I can't see it working. In a 3 way battle the best tactic would be to sit back and wait for the other two armies to battle each other and wear each other down, so you would tend to get a stand off.
Sword & Spear does work for multiplayer games, but there does need to be two sides. It would need quite a lot of tweaking to have more than two sides.
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Brilliant. Been looking forward to this. My son, who despite my best efforts, drifted away from wargaming to computer gaming, has suddenly gone nuts for S&S. And just last night he told me there really should be a fantasy version of the game.
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Yes. Although if you're talking about 28mm, then with the smaller (60mm frontage) unit size, movement rates and shooting ranges might seem small compared to figure size.
Great - thanks! I'll definitely be ordering these rules.
Might be a dinner-table option, to avoid a three-foot width being too much of a problem. We're well used to the HOTT abstractions where those three hobgoblins are actually a thousand - and missiles have a range of just 8cm. With a frontage of 6cm, what would bow range be in S&S?
That said, I have lots of HOTT elements kicking around, and they're generally in groups of at least four (because most of them are warbands, where you want the double rank and flank support), so 120mm won't be a problem, except for dragons and the like. I presume they take the same frontages? In any case, those can always be plopped on a temporary base or doubled up.
I don't think this would work with any set of big battle rules. It can work in skirmish games, where there might be an objective to accomplish such as grabbing treasure. But in a big battle game, even if the mechanics of the game allowed it, I can't see it working. In a 3 way battle the best tactic would be to sit back and wait for the other two armies to battle each other and wear each other down, so you would tend to get a stand off.
Sword & Spear does work for multiplayer games, but there does need to be two sides. It would need quite a lot of tweaking to have more than two sides.
Yes, that's probably true for massed-battle games. Multi-sided Dragon Rampant works fine, but it's at the larger end of skirmish and usually isn't a straight fight. One reason it works in DR, though, is because each unit completes its action all at once - which sounds a little similar to the S&S mechanics, from the reviews I've read.
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How does the game handle racial differences, for example the brutality of orcs, the stubborness of dwarfs, the horror of the undead? Is there much "crunch" in this regard?
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We're well used to the HOTT abstractions where those three hobgoblins are actually a thousand - and missiles have a range of just 8cm. With a frontage of 6cm, what would bow range be in S&S?
With 6cm frontage, 1 DU would be 3cm and bow range is 4 DU so that would be 12cm.
120mm won't be a problem, except for dragons and the like. I presume they take the same frontages? In any case, those can always be plopped on a temporary base or doubled up.
Monsters (where one base represents a single huge creature, rather than a unit of combatants) are on smaller bases, half the frontage of a unit, so your HOTT basing would work just fine.
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Multi-sided Dragon Rampant works fine, but it's at the larger end of skirmish and usually isn't a straight fight. One reason it works in DR, though, is because each unit completes its action all at once - which sounds a little similar to the S&S mechanics, from the reviews I've read.
Yes each unit does complete all of its actions when activated. However, unlike in DR, combats do carry on from turn to turn which might cause issues in a three way battle. Also the initiative process in each phase is designed for two sides (whoever has the most of the 7 dice drawn each phase has the initiative), and would need tweaking with three sides, as there would be a lot of draws.
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Can I just pick it up at Salute or should I pay now or? :--)
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How does the game handle racial differences, for example the brutality of orcs, the stubborness of dwarfs, the horror of the undead? Is there much "crunch" in this regard?
The system is fairly generic, allowing players to build their armies as they choose. There are no set racial traits. Troops are defined by type (for example heavy foot, cavalry, beasts), discipline (quality), armour, weapons and can be given other characteristics (such as steadfast, savage, heroic). So you can choose how the fantasy races in your world are reflected in the game, rather than having this set out for you.
There are specific rules for Undead - they work differently to other troops in terms of how they are activated and how combat results affect them.
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With 6cm frontage, 1 DU would be 3cm and bow range is 4 DU so that would be 12cm.
Monsters (where one base represents a single huge creature, rather than a unit of combatants) are on smaller bases, half the frontage of a unit, so your HOTT basing would work just fine.
Aha! That's perfect, then, on both counts. I have quite a few smaller "large" creatures on 30mm bases, so I can cover both scales nicely. That should give a lot of scope for both vast, heavily abstracted battles and somewhat more intimate and visually spectacular affairs with blocks of 12 or more troops. I might think about some 12cm movement trays for round-based figures too ...
Thanks again. I've just put in an order (and for some garish blue and orange dice).
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Do these have the same mechanisms as the historical set, or are there subtle differences?
We play quite a lot of Lion Rampant/Dragon Rampant/The Men Who Would Be Kings/The Pikemen's Lament at our club and although they share many mechanisms there are some differences between the rules which sometimes causes confusion (I put it down to memory loss). I'd rather not have the same situation with mass battles as well as skirmishes.
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Excellent news. Order placed, I've been looking forward to these. :)
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Do these have the same mechanisms as the historical set, or are there subtle differences?
There are no changes to the rules mechanisms in the historical set, only additions to cater for fantasy elements (new troop types, magic, undead, new abilities). You could buy the fantasy rules and use them to play a historical game against a player using the historic rules.
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I'm just about to base my trolls. If my regular infantry are on 11cm*7cm bases, with a DU of 55mm, and I were to base two trolls on a 11cm*7cm base, will I get really annoyed when my rules arrive?
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I'm just about to base my trolls. If my regular infantry are on 11cm*7cm bases, with a DU of 55mm, and I were to base two trolls on a 11cm*7cm base, will I get really annoyed when my rules arrive?
No, that would be fine. I would classify trolls as heavy foot, probably with the following characteristics: armoured, powerful attack, undrilled, regenerate (the latter for D&D style trolls rather than LOTR style).
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No, that would be fine. I would classify trolls as heavy foot, probably with the following characteristics: armoured, powerful attack, undrilled, regenerate (the latter for D&D style trolls rather than LOTR style).
Excellent, thanks.
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I've started to create a series of videos explaining how to play Sword & Spear. There will be about 9 or 10 videos covering the different aspects of the rules (which will all be relevant for both the ancient and medieval rules as well as Sword & Spear Fantasy), and then there will be a few extra videos just relating to Sword & Spear Fantasy. They will each be around 10 to 15 minutes long.
I've completed the first four videos and I'll get the fifth uploaded tomorrow. The others will hopefully follow over the next couple of weeks.
The first four parts of the Sword & Spear Video Guide are:
Part 1: Introduction https://youtu.be/50DU7lylob0
Part 2: Set-up and Deployment https://youtu.be/jo8rlQIW3Is
Part 3: How to Play the Game https://youtu.be/YMmddE7cLIY
Part 4: Movement https://youtu.be/zCvWmZZ9psE
If you are going to watch the videos to find out more about Sword & Spear (rather than using them to learn how to play) I recommend watching Parts 1 and 3.
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I enjoyed watching those. It looks a very interesting game, and I keenly await the arrival of the rules.
A thought struck me: in 28mm, using block of 4 HOTT elements, would you be able to record damage/morale by simply turning an element to face backwards to indicate each point of loss?
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A thought struck me: in 28mm, using block of 4 HOTT elements, would you be able to record damage/morale by simply turning an element to face backwards to indicate each point of loss?
I suppose you could, as long as you remember which way the unit is actually facing. It might start to look a little strange when a heavy foot unit has taken three hits and most of its bases are facing the wrong way.
And it wouldn't work for some units such as artillery or large beasts where you would probably only use 2 HOTT elements to represent the unit.
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Thanks! Good to know it could work. We use a "facing the wrong way" principle for battered units in Dragon Rampant, and it works pretty well. If I'm using four bases as one unit, I'll probably have a standard bearer on one, which can serve as the direction marker (i.e. that one faces the wrong way to the end).
I gather the rules are in the post at the moment, so I look forward to giving it a go over the weekend.
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You've not addressed the most important question Polkovnik...
How do I classify my 18 Zoats?
They're big, like ogres..but centaur like..and highly intelligent...and they use magic..
easy one for you ;-)
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So are they available in PDF like the ancients version was?
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So are they available in PDF like the ancients version was?
No, they won't be initially available as a pdf.
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No, they won't be initially available as a pdf.
That's sad news. Oh well.
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I contacted Great Escape Games (the publisher) and was told that a PDF for Sword & Spear 2nd Edition would be out, hopefully by end of month. I'd expect the Sword & Spear Fantasy rules PDF would also be coming shortly :)
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Excellent news. Thanks
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The game is unit based. All units must be the same frontage (or nearly the same). Typical unit frontages are 80mm for 15mm figures and 120mm for 28mm figures, but you can use any unit size you like. All distances are given in Distance Units (DU), where 1 DU is half the unit frontage.
Watched all the videos last night and ordered the game as well. I'm curious, does the base depth matter at all?
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The rulebook says "Unit depth is not so import but will generally be around half the normal unit frontage". I'm playing a game shortly, but I get the impression that it's not a big deal (as in HOTT). Greater depth could make the unit more vulnerable to flank or rear attacks (by bringing the target edge closer to the enemy), but I can't see it making much of a difference otherwise.
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...another thing I'm curious about...I know the game roots are big block ancient battles (line em up, move em forward, kill!), but do the fantasy rules lend themselves well to scenario games? Siege battles, defend the town, breakthrough, battle of 5 armies, playing out RPG battles ect. My years of WFB are long past, but I do fondly remember being able to use (and bend) the rules to create exciting new scenarios.
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I'm curious, does the base depth matter at all?
Most of the time it will make very little difference. A deeper base will mean it might take longer for the unit to clear a terrain feature, and there could be situations where a flank charge will contact a unit but wouldn't have done if it had a lesser base depth.
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...another thing I'm curious about...I know the game roots are big block ancient battles (line em up, move em forward, kill!), but do the fantasy rules lend themselves well to scenario games? Siege battles, defend the town, breakthrough, battle of 5 armies, playing out RPG battles ect.
No to siege battles (unless you mean the part where the defenders sally forth to attack the besiegers), yes to the others.
Here's some pics of a Battle of Five Armies game:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2gt0l04.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/fdy8hi.jpg)
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I wanna be excited by this game, the mechanics sound really quite innovative and the rules sound solid. I can overcome the possible generic nature of the lists by adding a few house rules, that's a slight concern, nothing more. But every photo I see of a game in action shows two really boring long lines facing each other. That's a real turn off. Any battle reports anywhere that can convince me otherwise?
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But every photo I see of a game in action shows two really boring long lines facing each other. That's a real turn off. Any battle reports anywhere that can convince me otherwise?
Unfortunately, that is what the majority of big battles were like, especially pre-gunpowder.
In my last crusades game I turned the Crusader flank and we ended up with units all over the place, facing in all directions in a right mess. But it started off in two long lines facing each other.
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Unfortunately, that is what the majority of big battles were like, especially pre-gunpowder.
In my last crusades game I turned the Crusader flank and we ended up with units all over the place, facing in all directions in a right mess. But it started off in two long lines facing each other.
Agreed you only need to watch Game of thrones or Lord of the rings to see that large armies will form ranks. WHFB is more a large skirmish rather than mass battles, you may be better looking at Dragon Rampant or Kings of War to have that scale of battle. These rules are more akin to Warmaster
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Agreed you only need to watch Game of thrones or Lord of the rings to see that large armies will form ranks.
In fact I think most movie battles don't do this enough. Movie battles almost always instantly devolve into a hundred individual sword-fights, with any notion of ranks and formation vanishing the instant the lines meet, and the battlefield suddenly resembling a gladiatorial arena (because individual melees are apparently cooler than formed bodies fighting each other). I'm not convinced this happened to the degree it does in films.
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So I picked up these rules, always willing to give something new a go. I am reading through the rules and it's quite heavy going. I started the youtube videos, pretty helpful. However, there's only 5 of them, nothing on melee, magic, undead, etc. What happened to them?
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So I picked up these rules, always willing to give something new a go. I am reading through the rules and it's quite heavy going. I started the youtube videos, pretty helpful. However, there's only 5 of them, nothing on melee, magic, undead, etc. What happened to them?
Stalled a bit I'm afraid. I am planning on getting the rest of them done, but finding time when my camera operator (my 9 year old daughter) is free without any distractions around (my two 7 year old boys) has been difficult.
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Stalled a bit I'm afraid. I am planning on getting the rest of them done, but finding time when my camera operator (my 9 year old daughter) is free without any distractions around (my two 7 year old boys) has been difficult.
very difficult so it seems ;)