Problem with General d' Armee's number of ADC's?

[CATenWolde]

Hi,

A local player wants to experiment with the new Napoleonic rules "General de Armee". The core command system for these rules involves generating command points (referred to as ADC's to give some period flavor) for each division. Essentially, each division receives one potential ADC per brigade, but rolls each turn to determine how many he actually gets: on a roll of 1-2 the ADC is not available, BUT on any roll of double 6 he gets an extra ADC that turn. So, if a division has three brigades, a roll of 1/6/6 would generate 3 ADC's (you roll three dice for your three brigades, the roll of 1 means you lose 1 that turn, but the double 6 means you get an extra). Many, even the majority, of brigade commands require two ADC's, while the powerful "Command!" (take personal command) order requires three.

My problem is that the mechanism seems designed for ahistorical play, with so-called "large divisions" of 4+ brigades, as is apparent from the example OB's and the math involved in generating the ADC's. In reality, the vast majority of divisions had 2-3 brigades, while "divisions" or columns of more brigades were more typical of earlier, clumsier commands reminiscent of 18th century command structures. However, in GdA the larger "divisions" have a distinct advantage, as they are both more likely to generate a workable number of normal ADC's and also generate a "bonus" ADC. As an example, Davout's vaunted III Corps would be crippled in front line command with it's "small" divisions, even though they were actually led by talented and veteran commanders.

At first glance, it seems that a more workable system would have been to simply rate division commanders for their potential pools of ADC's (3-5?) rather than base the number on the number of brigades they commanded.

Has anyone run into this problem, or tried other workarounds? Am I missing something obvious?

Cheers,

Christopher

[vtsaogames]

Have not read or played GdA, but wonder: how do 2 divisions each of 2 brigades fare against a single 4 brigade division? Does the division CO also get a roll for ADC's? That might be a simple tweak for talented Division Cos.

Have you played yet or does this issue arise from reading the rules?

I am interested in hearing your views on this rule set.

[aphillathehun]

We have not experienced this in our games, but our games have been late war Prussians versus French.  When we've had Russians, they are more ... sluggish.  I can see how this might be a problem though.  IF (!) it turns out to be a problem, it seems that you could make an adjustment to the number of ADCs in your scenario to get the right level of friction.  If you're gaming isn't really scenario based then I'm not sure what to do :-).

[CATenWolde]

We had to postpone our first game until next week, so my comments are just on reading and thinking how I would prepare historical scenarios.

As for how 2 divisions of 2 brigades would fare versus 1 division of 4 brigades ... I think this depends on how you abstract the command levels, which isn't well explained in the rules. If you retained the actual command structure (which seems both natural and a positive goal), then 1) both sides would have the same total number of potential ADC's (4, 1 per brigade), but 2) the side with that number split between 2 divisions would obviously never have the ability to use 3-ADC commands, and would often not be able to use the much more common and vital 2-ADC commands. So, you are actually penalized for having an additional senior commander, and for having fewer brigades for each senior commander to look after ...

On the other hand, I think that the intention of the game would be that both sides were fielded exactly the same - that you would ignore the second division commander and simply play both sides with a single commander with 4 ADC's. As much as that makes my admittedly OB-OCD gamer mind twitch, that could work IF you were playing fairly abstracted scenarios, but as soon as you start translating historical OB's and historical scenarios into this sort of system I could see it becoming very subjective and problematic. I think there is an 1815 scenario book coming out for GdA, which might prove interesting as an example of how they think these things should be handled.

I think a good solution might be to use what the rules define as optional rules for "corps" generals as standard rules for "division" generals. These rules give the various grades of generals extra ADC's (normally 2-3). The optional rules for brigadier quality also seem good (well-led brigades can re-roll Hesitant results, poorly-led brigades require an extra ADC).

If you use the Corps rules for Divisions, then our example above becomes: the side with 2 divisions receives 2x (2 for brigades + 2-3 for quality) while the side with 1 division receives (4 + 2-3). The smaller divisions thus each have 4-5 potential ADC's per turn, while the larger division would have 6-7, but spread over more brigades. This seems to make more sense?

We should have our game next Monday. One of my basic questions will be: how does the ADC system reflect how a division commander would actually launch an attack? For instance, it costs 2 ADC's to order your artillery to fire more intensively to support an assault, and 2 ADC's to order a brigade to assault (after which the brigade *must* move forward). This means that it would be almost impossible to order both brigades of a typical division to assault on the same turn ... which seems to build in a fractured system of assaults. There's a lot about the system, like this, that I could see working better for the ACW (its original form) than Napoleonics, but it's interesting enough to explore. The rest of the rules (movement and combat) seem admirably streamlined.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Greystreak]

Christopher, is there any reason you are not posing your questions to one of the two 'official' forums for this rules set?  You are much more likely to get the author's viewpoint on 'design intent' at either location.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/generaldebrigadefr/general-d-armee-f18/
https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=41&sid=a8e6fe22fa32422e46c8a609ffd6f5d4

[CATenWolde]

I did ask the question on the official forums a little while back, when we first got the rules, and received a quick and thoughtful reply. Essentially, the author's point was that the various systems should be viewed as an abstraction of the various command layers in the OB's. This is fine - and even potentially intriguing - but not very concrete. I was hoping for views from players who might have experienced the same issues and possibly come up with their own solutions. With no particular reference to those forums, I've found that "unofficial" forums often are a better source of such "unofficial" house rulings, where official forums are a great place to answer questions about the Rules as Written. Just fishin' in a different pond.

Cheers,

Christopher

[LawnRanger]

I dont find it a problem in the  rules .

    i think you might have your wire cross about the ADC  you can use any or all of the ADC  in the army on any division ..  so the army with 2 division of 2 brigade in each .. could use all the ADC 4 in 1 division as needed ..
 you dont  have to keep them in there own division ..

and good Generals can get a Plus ADC in the game IF you feel hes good enough

so in the end it does not matter  how many divisions you have its the Brigades that count for the ADC..and you can use them where  you want them to be placed and its a 1,2 that the brigade becomes  hesitant

hope this helps Happy gaming dave