Russian/Soviet Group Names

[ErikB]

No matter how much I read about this I remain confused.

The Soviets/Russians had "Companies" of 3-5 tanks or 30-50 soldiers, for example. 

American/British Companies have 2-4 times this number. 

It appears to me that the same size unit in Russia/USSR is bumped up one level in terms of its name.

Based upon some Russian movies I have seen, it appears that an Lt. does a Sgt.'s job and a Captain leads 20-50 men, so they are bumped down a level.  I don't know if this is normal or not over there.

If what the Soviets call a батальон (Battalion) is equivalent to a Western Company (for example), and a Soviet рота (Company) is really a Western Platoon, is this just semantics or some strange faux-ami translation?

Someone, please explain.  Thanks!

[emosbur]

Are you talking about WWII?

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-rifle-co-1943

https://www.battleorder.org/1944-ussr-mediumtankco

But russian units were very understrenght after a few combats. VERY understrenght.

Milo.

[ErikB]

Thanks, Milo.  I meant more Cold War and modern times when Soviet/Russian units had not lost many people due to fighting.

Mostly, I am trying to figure out why Team Yankee labels Soviet units as one size above their Western equivalent.

[N.C.S.E]

Have a look at the US Army's FM-100-2-3. Freely available online, it's basically got the organisations from squad to Combined Arms Army. It's an artefact of the Cold War so there's likely inaccuracies, but good enough for our purposes. The units within it are all listed as platoons, companies, etc. Furthermore, platoons are equivalent to Western sizes. A Soviet motorised rifle platoon comes in at about 3 vehicles (BTR/BMP) carrying about 28 guys.   

Looking at Russian sites shows about the same thing. Unfortunately the site I use for 70s-80s Cold War Soviet organisations is down, but the organisation for WW2 shows that the Reds used "Vzvod" (squad) (20-50 men, depending on role) "Rota" (company) (70-200 men, depending on role) "Batalon" (battalion) (200-700 men, depending on role). So somewhere down the line I think there's been a misunderstanding. For their faults in portraying the Soviets, Flames of War generally gets their organisation and naming pretty right.

Disclaimer: my Russian is borderline hopeless so someone who knows more (like Kuprum) should jump in to say so.

[emosbur]

Same web:

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-bmp-1980s

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-tanks-1980s

Soviet squads were small, but superior units were similar to OTAN ones, I think.

Bytheway, download this document and compare:

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p4013coll9/id/335

[ErikB]

It looks like their platoon/company/battalion structure is similar to the West's.

So why does Flames of War and Team Yankee call them one level higher?

[emosbur]

May be a command and control issue. Soviet system is considered to be clumsier. So they pit an OTAN platoon, more flexible, against a soviet company, may be?

[cuprum]

Hi guys! If you have any questions for me - write to me. I do not always look at forum topics that are not part of my personal interests.

It's actually quite simple. Soviet and modern Russian troops have units and subunits of two types. Units of full staff strength (there are not many of them) and the so-called "cropped" ones (which are many times greater). Cropped units have full command and armament, but a significantly reduced number of rank-and-file soldiers. These units will be deployed to full strength only in case of war. In the USSR and Russia, the conscription army system and the entire male population undergo military service and receive a military profession. If necessary, these people are called up from the reserve and fill the cropped units to their full strength.
To participate in some local events, spare soldiers are not called up, consolidated units are formed in framed units, which are sent to the action zone. And usually there are more officers in such groups than necessary - in order for them to gain combat experience.

[ErikB]

Wow, fantastic answer.  Thanks heaps, Cuprum.

[carlos marighela]

Leaving aside distinctions between lower category and cadre strength divisions, the organisational structure is essentially the same. Squad/section, platoon, company battalion.  Soviet tank companies in Tank regiments typically had 10 tanks (3 platoons of 3 + 1X command tank), those in the Tank battalions of Motor Rifle Regiments had 13 ( 3 platoons of four tanks with one command tank). A US tank company in the 1970s might be 17 tanks ( three platoons of five + 2 command vehicles) or 14 with the new J -TOE. Same number of platoons and command vehicles but only four tanks per platoon (typically the then new M1, M1IP or M1A1).

Manning strengths of infantry sub units could be also be significantly smaller, in part dictated  the dimensions and carrying capabilities of troop lift in mechanised formations. A British section of 8 or US Army squad of 9 carried in an FV423 or M113 respectively might confront a Soviet Motor Rifle Squad of seven or six dismounts carried by a BMP -1 or BMP-2.

That said overall numbers are not to wildly out given that in the Soviet practice the driver and commander are part of the squad, in fact the squad leader usually stayed mounted and the dismounts came under an assistant.  If you factor those in platoon paper numbers are still are the 30 mark, which is not wildly dissimilar to Western armies.

Those smaller squads were even smaller in Afghanistan, at times the size of a large fire team.

Have a look here:

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-bmp-1980s

compared to:

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-bmp-afghansky

Both taken from Russian sources.

Tanks Companies:

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-tanks-1980s