French Indochina War question… French use of Lewis Guns? And other oddities….

[carlos marighela]

Empress has the  MAC mle 31 cast and ready to add to some vehicles soon. So yes we do plan on doing non para troops including colonial types. 

This is very good news. Have long wanted to do some games on the De Lattre line, muck around with dinassauts or do some on The Street Without Joy. T’would be lovely if we could squeeze a couple more packs of paras out with MAS 49/56 as then the Indochina range could cover the latter part of the Algerian War as well.

US arms supply is a complex and oft contradictory topic, reflecting what appear to be tensions between State Dept and the military. Officially the US was opposed to colonial regimes and military aid supplied under MAP was not encouraged but were permitted for domestic defence. In this manner the US provided Sabre jets to Portugal but cracked the shits when the Portuguese used them in Angola and demanded they were sent back to Portugal. Sometimes this was avoided with an apparent wink and a nod with funding under MAP being provided to purchase non-US equipment that could then be used wherever.

US policy on supply of military assistance to the French softened somewhat after the outbreak of the Korean War and France was able to access a wider range of support. The US was quite happy to arm the Vietnamese National Army and they were well furnished with US arms. If you see troops in the FIW with Garands they are most likely VNA troops.

Curiously enough the US supplied the French with thousands of M1 Garands along with Sherman tanks, M-47s, jet fighter bombers etc, etc for their NATO role in Germany.  Equally oddly they don’t seem to have had the same qualms about the use of some of this equipment in Algeria. Plenty of photos of Metropolitan conscript battalions as part of the quadrillage toting M1 Garands.

[Paul @ Empress Miniatures]

Curiously enough the US supplied the French with thousands of M1 Garands along with Sherman tanks, M-47s, jet fighter bombers etc, etc for their NATO role in Germany.  Equally oddly they don’t seem to have had the same qualms about the use of some of this equipment in Algeria. Plenty of photos of Metropolitan conscript battalions as part of the quadrillage toting M1 Garands.

Yes it is curious. The FFL were certainly using them in Algeria.

 

[Etranger]

Perhaps because Algeria was officially part of Metropolitan France rather than a Colony? An artificial distinction in many ways but Algeria was different politically to eg Tunisia.

[Paul @ Empress Miniatures]

Perhaps because Algeria was officially part of Metropolitan France rather than a Colony? An artificial distinction in many ways but Algeria was different politically to eg Tunisia.

Very good point.

[FreakyFenton]

I looked at the books I have on the topic, which support the facts mentioned by the other posters that old WW2 era weapons were being used.

With the school-french I came up with the following "fusil-mitrailleur Lewis Mark I en indochine" which shows french equipment, i.e. the MAC-24/29 and the like. So no clue.

The uniforms and kit of the French were quite varied, never seen any pictures of Lewis Guns as in WW1 however.

[Grumpy Gnome]

What Paul said. Steve Zaloga claims to have met a knowledgeable US serviceman who saw a Panther tank in Vietnam in the early 60's but no photos have ever surfaced so it's still in the myth category for me. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/pink-panther-tank-in-vietnam-t36079.html?sid=6ffeb054e92a8b3a1dd8697695425cea

There were around 12 Hanomags IIRC, with local modifications for cooling. Sadly the links I had on the topic are now 'dead'. There are photos of at least 2 different ones on the internet. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=309130 has some of the information.

I do not fully understand the numbers, but it looks like more than 12 Hanomags on the US Govt 1954 Lessons Learned document I linked. Page 48C in particular mentions Half-Track Hanomags being eliminated. Again, I do not quite get what the numbers mean. How many in service by year perhaps?

Interesting to see the Universal Carrier (Ford T-16 MK2) numbers as well.

https://download1587.mediafire.com/vxsa3v2nm0lg/pdlbp07x757ni1f/AD804375.pdf

It is a challenge to wade through it but that document has a wealth of information.

[carlos marighela]

Interesting document but I suspect there are a few errors. Presuming that ‘Armored [sic] Vehicles Kept in Service’ means vehicles passed on to the ARVN, then the M36 data looks suspect. The M36 battalion was specifically formed to provide an anti-armour reserve in the event of Chinese intervention into northern Tonkin. I’ve seen no evidence that the ARVN inherited any of these.

ARVN armour from 1955 on was almost wholly M5s and M24 as light tanks, M8 and M20 in the recce role, with a miscellany of M3 Scout Cars, M3 Halftacks and the occasional bit of exotica like Dingo/ Lynx scout cars, Canadian CT-15s filling out the rest. A little later some Wickum armoured rail draisines were purchased from the British in Malaya.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Reading the rest of the document, to me the context of kept versus eliminated looks  purely on French retention not passing on to ARVN as it talks about the shift to increasingly more universally British and American equipped units. The eliminations look to me just those being phased out from French service but does not address at all what happened to vehicles when eliminated.

Interesting I just noticed this M36 wiki page references eight M36s being given to Taiwan in 1955 But I do not see the original source material for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M36_tank_destroyer#Operators

“The Republic of China Army acquired eight ex-French examples in 1955, having them stationed in Kinmen island group and saw combat during the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in 1958. They were deemed more maneuverable than the bigger M48A3 and later CM11/12 MBTs, while being more powerful than M24 and M41 light tanks. As of April 2001, at least two still remained in service with troops in Lieyu Township.”

[Grumpy Gnome]

Found these links, I don't know if it can help.

https://www.monsieur-legionnaire.org/images/Les-armes-de-la-LegioneEtrangere-de%201939-a-1979.pdf

https://www.overlord.fr/post-1945/5841-les-armes-de-la-guerre-d-indochine-1945-1954.html

That first link is particularly useful to me in that it addresses a nagging question I have had about the MAS CR 39 Paratrooper Carbines. The aluminum folding stock always looks silver which seemed odd to me considering efforts made for camouflage clothing but the one on that page seems to have had a light olive green finish that has been wearing away.

[carlos marighela]

Unless you are polishing it, aluminium oxides pretty quickly anyway and it’s a flat effect. For what it’s worth I painted the stocks on the Empress chaps with a very light grey. Didn’t know they were initially painted but it makes sense.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Unless you are polishing it, aluminium oxides pretty quickly anyway and it’s a flat effect. For what it’s worth I painted the stocks on the Empress chaps with a very light grey. Didn’t know they were initially painted but it makes sense.

It reminds me of paint wearing off aluminum camouflage netting poles for vehicles.

I don’t normally consider myself much of a stitch or button counter but little details like this intrigue me, especially when they are not commonly discussed or are not part of “accepted theory”.

This is why the reference to Lewis guns is so interesting to me. I have been looking through probably a couple of hundred photos online and in reference books and never seen a photo of a Lewis in French use in Indochina.

[vodkafan]

It is true the French had a battalion of 50 Panther tanks post war but they were never sent to Indochina. Except in my forthcoming Fantasy Indochina games 
I didn't know that about Hanomag half tracks though thanks for the info.

[Grumpy Gnome]

It has been fascinating to learn more about this conflict. So much information has been lost but there are still some sources of information that can reveal some amazing examples of local military ingenuity given the limited resources sent by France.

I am admittedly very curious about the disposition of all the left of vast lots of military hardware from WW2.