WW2: 15mm or 20mm

[benglish]

OK, if I wanted to start WWII gaming, would you recommend 15mm or 20mm?

I know 15s are popular because of Flames of War, but having just seen V's No. 2 platoon with AB figures, I was impressed with how much more 28mm-like the 20mm could be.

But if I were to go 20mm, which are the best figure lines -- and are vehicles difficult to find?

And about how many figures would I need per side for a typical 20mm WWII game?

Sorry -- I know this is an incredibly open-ended question with lots of potential answers, but I'd really appreciate some input.

Thanks
benglish

[kyoteblue]

Depends on what rules you plan on using. Both scales/sizes work.

[V]

20mm - Gods Own for WW2

Every vehicle and troop you can imagine is available... Hence why I have WW2 Thais!

You may also wanna join here - www.guildwargamers.com - its a 20mm based forum that I run with a few guys and has most manufacturers on board and thousands of images.

[benglish]

V, your figs are my inspiration for looking into this.  I am subscribing to your blog and joining that site.

Thank you!

[Paddy649]

Benglish,

It depends what you want.  If you want beautiiful troops and eith a skirmish game or a game with a cut down and I would say unrepresentative figure scale than 20mm works,  However, the game you get won't necessarily be that historically accurate.

Because getting the history, ORBATS and scenario right is important to me then 15mm is my choice - plus with FOW figures (amongst others) the modelling side of 15mm is up there with 20mm if not 28mm  However, FOW rules are IMHO somewhat limited and so I prefer BFWWII for a better game with greater historical accuracy.  Take a look at some of the scenarios and after action reports here and see what you think:

http://fireandfury.com/rffsupport/rffscenarios.shtml

Paddy

[V]

the modelling side of 15mm is up there with 20mm if not 28mm

Alex Clarks 20mm T-72...



1/72 Revell Famo...




Sorry, but 15mm modelling, while very good in some cases, wil never reach what 1/76th and 1/72nd (20mm) is capable of.


For me its the sheer availability of stuff and often at very cheap prices. While plastic 15mm kits are just making an appearance, for 20mm gamers there are hundreds, if not thousands, with resin and metal vehicles too. Its pretty hard to find a vehicle thats not made!

On a personal note I find 20mm figures far more pleasing to the eye and a better size for my painting techniques.

At the end of the day, my advice would be to choose what scale you prefer the look of. They are your toys and your enjoyment should be the first consideration, nothing else.

After that you may want to consider what other gamers are using and what, if any, existing terrain you already have available... If you have loads of 15mm terrain then you might want to consider that avenue. Of course its really only buildings that need to be scaled correctly, hedges and trees often work in any scale. Lancer Models now own all the Queens Hussar/Shellhole Scenics buildings and Scenic Effects are back in production so you can make something like this in 20mm like I did...

[redzed]

20mm all the way, EVERYTHING is available, also you can do it very cheap- some of the new plastics are outstanding.

[Paddy649]

Sorry, but 15mm modelling, while very good in some cases, wil never reach what 1/76th and 1/72nd (20mm) is capable of.

V - you show some truly beautiful models and an excellent game - is it a display game?  My talents as a modeller and painter would sadly preclude me reaching these heights - so perhaps "very good" in 15mm is the best I can aspire to.  Something like this:

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=53&art_id=2735......and was I computer literate enough I would post some other pictures. 

However, are the 20mm models you show really wargame models?  ...and if so are they deployable in the quantities needed to refight a meaningfully historic battle?  To be representative of Cold War Soviet tactics T-72s would be deployed in regiments not singletons - unless you are representing a very minor skirmish. 

Your point about limited 15mm availability was certainly true 10 years ago - less so now.  Today you might struggle to find the more estoeric or experimental WW2 vehicles in 15mm - but if few were built and they never saw active service then I don't really care from a wargames perspective.

On cost I have to agree with you - 1/72 plastics are comparable in cost with resin or lead 15mm and so size for size cheaper.  Emerging 15mm plastics will address this to some degree.  But I'm talking wargame models and so want them to be able to take a degree of punishment - I notice you based your Modern Brit vehicles - probably for this reason.

However, agree totally that it is horses for courses.....as I said it depends what you want and what sort of games you play.  For me WW2 gaming gets tactically interesting at the Battlegroup (+) or Brigade (-) level and that is just about doable in 15mm but gets increasingly impractical at the larger scales.

[V]

You said modelling. Thats different to gaming. The above two vehicles are, as I stated, by Alex Clark and are models. They are examples of what you can model in the scale, and I dont believe 15mm can come close. But no you wouldnt game with those ones! 


Yer we have a few Cold War vehicles... 





All my stuff is for gaming and all my AARs are normal club games. Dont do display games or go to shows.

The city above is just some of my modular city terrain.

Alot of 20mm gamers build high end gaming pieces... kinda goes with territory I guess. Hang over from modelmaking.

[Paddy649]

Just a few Cold War vehicles then!  I'm impressed!  Love the Hannomags!

[Gunbird]

What I like about 20mm:

You can use (second hand) HO scenic stuff.


Plastic kits are cheap and plentiful and really bring out the moddeler in me, and new companies like PSC bring in excellent deals for army building.

I can do a major battle.

Get highly detailed models.


Use stuff from all scales.

Turning a photograph into a model is easy.

And skirmish and what not.....

Whether you should go 15mm or 20mm or 28mm for that matter is really your choice. What do the locals game, are you attracted to that? Do you like a different scale and are you alone in that (like I am where I live) you propably won't game very often (like I do) so you need to really like what the scale has to offer to you.

I like it cause you can do everything with 20mm, be it big, small, skirmish, roleplay, go full on details or just simple.
28mm can have more character, 15mm can be easier to get locally, but for me it is 20mm in everything.

[Arrigo]

I am more and more a 15mm man, even going down to 6mm for large engagement. We have reaching the point where the availability of material in 15mm is excellent, not at the same level of 20mm but very close. Yes Piers can turn miracles with 20mm, but I can do with 15mm at least for my use... plus I think the space-force ratios in 15mm fit better my gaming table.



In the end depends on you, what you want and what satisfies you most. There is no point, especially if you plan to provide "full game packages", to stick on a scal you do not like. I dropped out of 20mm time ago and now I am questioning the decision (Luckily I have still a lot of modern stuff... maybe I can stage a come back...). Especially having easy access to britannia and eleheim... ok cannot blame myself to not have guessed I would have ended stranded for 5 years in London long time ago.

Now... I confess to be an heretic... I do not see 15mm and 20mm as alternatives, but I am more and more tempted to consider 20mm and 28mm alternatives. I think skirmish game in 20mm are better and the availability fo mechanized stuff is much better. Said that I have overcommitted to 28mm for skirmish and it will be quite erratic to switch back again. But if I have to start from scratch probably 20mm would be a better choiche.

I can only offer this picture:



and this one:



the biggest 28mm table my old group (70% me 30% my cousin...) put up at dadi.com. We could not do these things outside the convention setting for space reason. 20mm would have allowed us to do things like that at the club HQ (my home). And certianly the money efforts would have been less onerous... boys... i realized I have...

3 M1, 2 M2A2, 1 Chieftain, 1 Sherman, 1 Panther, 1 Panzer IIIN, 1 M48, 2 sheridan, 2 T72, 1 T55, 3 BMP2, 1 BMP1, 2 LAV25, 2 Hummers, 1 Centauro, 1 Stummel, 1 type 95, 1 LVTA1, 1 Centurion, 2 Mutts, 7 M113 (various versions) and this is only the painted vehicle collection... on money term is a massive amount of stuff... actually it is craaaazy... in 20mm Probably I would have been able to save hundreds of pounds... ouch I have also a T-90!... and probably I owuld have had more vehicles... still when you invested too much is not easy to get back.

Returning to the initial point... I got involved in 28mm because my cousin (who ended up spending much less...) was pestering me with that... but with hindsight I realized it would have been better to do 20mm. So pick a game style you like and look at your gaming space and your tastes. For combined arms games I, personally, thing 15mm is much better. For low level games or skirmish 20mm is propably the strongest contender.

Arrigo